patrick.net

CBOEtrader says

RayAmerica says
Wow! What horrible anti-American concepts! It is terribly anti-American to be against war and imperial expansionism.

CBOEtrader says:
Anti-American? Of course not, silly. It’s RACIST!

That goes without saying. Everyone knows if you're white, you are a racist. BTW, any idea how many whites belong to the Congressional Black Caucus?

ahasuerus99 says

What is this obsession with disparaging those who choose to link themselves with the Tea Party? Are we supposed to believe that it is impossible someone oppose the recent Health Care Reform bill unless that person is a racist.

What's strange as these with this obsession identify them selves as an "American"(and rightly so, that aint the point) but they don't identify them selves as a "Republican" let alone a "Tea Party" supporter. They identify them selves as Democrats or what ever branch of the Liberal Left they may identify with. While they may not identify with every idea in what embodies the Left. They can not imagine that while Tea Party supporters may Identify with much of what the Tea Party is saying, without identifying with some of the people that also identify with those issues, such as against the Federal Rim job we've been getting for over ten years now. This isn't all about Obama You know.

This revolt against Big Gov-> Big Biz -> Big Gov, has been coming for years. If Bush Sr. had been black then Ross Pero would be the brunt of all this Leftward fervor then.

If I do recall, his supporters at first, were written off as Gomer Fudd, which only made his popularity even stronger. Though Ross was his own demise with "I'm in! I'm out! I'm in! I'm out!"

ahasuerus99 says

What is this obsession with disparaging those who choose to link themselves with the Tea Party? Are we supposed to believe that it is impossible someone oppose the recent Health Care Reform bill unless that person is a racist. If that is the case, then I guess Mish (who Patrick links to frequently) is secretly a member of the KKK. If a person believes taxes are too high, does that mean the person supports a return to slavery? I don’t understand the logic behind the invective. Are there people out there holding horrible signs? I’m sure there are, just as there are people protesting at the funerals of dead marines. Am I to assume that since there are religious wackos protesting at marine funerals, this means that all people who oppose the war in Iraq do so because they believe God is punishing this country for homosexuality?

This is the philosophical free fall that conservatives assume is running through Liberal minds without actually being curious as to why Liberals find the Tea Party demonstraters so offensive.

The conclusions you draw are illogical. Just because we Liberals don't like the racist tone of the Tea Party doesn't mean that we believe that all criticism of Obama and his administration is racist. I, and many other Liberals, have voiced similar critiques of Obama and his administration here and elsewhere. That doesn't make us racist. The anti-government and anti-tax and even some of the anti-Obama sentiment in the Tea Party isn't racism.

Signs that depict Obama as a monkey, calling him a Muslim as if this would be an insult, claiming he's a Kenyan, depicting him as a witch doctor, claiming that somehow "we have lost our country" (and it has nothing to do with the health care debate), having signs that depict a noose saying that "there's gonna be a hangin'" and making claims that somehow Obama must be a socialist and communist while being fascist (and this isn't possible if you understand these political ideologies) create an atmosphere that appears racist.

If the Tea Party demonstrators would passionately argue for less government, lower taxes, less regulation, while offering real solutions to our country's problems then we Liberals would be able to have an actual honest real debate about the issues. Instead we are confronted with racial epithets being hurled at legislators and even people spitting on certain legislators simply for being black or gay.

The message is lost in a sea of hate. That's the problem I have with the Tea Party as an American Liberal. I find their mindset anti-American. We are supposed to live in a country that encourages freedom of expression while at the same time allowing others to express themselves freely so that honest political debate can take place that can lead to real solutions through cooperation, even when we passionately disagree. This is what is lost in the message sent by the demonstrations put on by the Tea Party organizers. It's the American notion that we are ALL Americans, whatever our beliefs, color, ethnicity, etc. and that we can argue passionately about our different views while forming collaborative and hard fought solutions to our most pressing problems that is missing in the Tea Party. The Tea Party shuts down debate. They hurl insults and slogans without offering any solutions and without showing the willingness to sit down and have an honest debate where collaboration and compromise can happen.

Our government is supposed to work collaboratively and compromise is written into the system with checks and balances. That's why each branch only holds 1/3 of the power each. That's why it's healthy to have people from all parts of the political spectrum holding office in our three branches of government. It's the strength of our American political institutions to collaborate, debate, and compromise. That's not possible with the current state of affairs concerning the Tea Party.

They show up with guns. They show up with offensive signs. They shut down any opposition by shouting over anyone who disagrees with them. Remember the town halls during the health care "debates." I use quotes around the word "debates" because they weren't debates. They were conventions where Tea Party members shut down any chance at debate by shouting over anyone who disagreed with their agenda. That's anti-American. That's not how the Founding Fathers came together to form our system of government.

That is a list of the problems I have as an American Liberal with the Tea Party.

Debate, disagreement, opposition, critique, criticism, and passion are all part of the American experience in government. Thug tactics like shouting down anyone who disagrees, spitting on legislators, yelling racial epithets, yelling homophobic epithets, bringing guns to demonstrations where elected officals are to "enforce" your point, and attempting to define your opposition with illogical ad hominem attacks is Anti-American. It's the tyranny of a mob.

Hello in there McFly!

Newt Gingrich said that he expects the Tea Party movement to evolve into "the militant wing of the Republican Party" at a speaking engagement in Pennsylvania on Wednesday night, the York Dispatch reports.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/22/newt-gingrich-tea-party-t_n_548250.html

Gingrich has also previously said Tea Party leaders "understand that in the end their job is to help defeat Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi"

http://vodpod.com/watch/3379691-gingrich-tea-party-leaders-understand-that-in-the-end-their-job-is-to-help-defeat-harry-reid-and-nancy-pelosi-media-matters-for-america

Any idea of being independent or third party is thus either fantasy or smoke screen. The slogan of "vote them ALL out" is laughable & a lie on it's face because it doesn't apply to Republicans. I suppose it's possible Gingrich is lying about all this, or mistaken. If so, the Tea Party should correct Gingrich and demonstrate that they are not merely a Republican faction by actions.

I'm waiting to see who they Ultimately back as Candidate and on what ticket they run, before I really cast my lot. And by that I actually mean take serious.

I never cared for changing one "Group" to another. It's all about the face and the man in the end that gets thrown out front. I can get the rest from how sincere that person is, based on his campaign rhetoric.

It's like my propensity to put a face to the food, and they need to match. I don't want to see Earl Rodgers making my Fried rice Sechuan Beef, no more than I'm interested in Luis Carbajal making Memphis Ribs or Sushi.

These "Grassroots" sham groups have a knack of putting the wrong c(r)ook out front, and every one eats what ever they dish out, because they look stunning in that Chefs hat.

elliemae says

That was udderly ridiculous. I hope you don’t have a beef with that comment. Where’s Mikey when we need him?

Where's the beef? I don't understand how Mikey, who won't eat it because he hates everything, can help us here. Are you trying to tell me that the plastic beings who stand as matriarchs of my family have a bovine nature? They told me that they are Divine. But that can't be true either since she's been dead since March 7, 1988 and I don't think that any of them have ever starred in a John Waters film. Pink flamingos and desperate living can have a real impact on women who live in trailers. And what about the tornadoes and their attraction to trailer parks, or is it that tornadoes are attracted to pink flamingos? I get so confused.

Babs!!!

Eggs!!!

Simcha - I think I love you! You can hang out in my crib anytime!

The only thing I know about tea bagger as a 'movement' is Rick Santelli of cnbc saying he didn't want to pay for other peoples mortgages through taxes. I agree with him on that- gov doesn't help me with my rent nor should it. I'm not sure what the rest of the 'tea party movement' really is and I don't think most of them have any concrete idea what it is either. That won't stop some would-be politicians to let the tea baggers know exactly what they should stand for.

So the question I want to you answer for me is:

Am I a Tea Bagger?

I am white and over 50.
I drive an old white beat-up Ford pick-up. (just because I'm cheap, it's just a tool plus I don't give a shit what you think)
I think as long as you aren't hurting anybody, do what you like. (pot, cigs, booze, drugs, sex, gay, no helmet ok, abortion,
gambling, whatever)
I am strongly law and order. (if you rob, embezzle, murder, rape, assault, threaten, molest, deal drugs, manufacture or
smuggle drugs, defraud etcetera you go to PRISON)
I am not a racist. (people are just people)
I am against illegal immigration. (we have immigration laws and these people are breaking them)
I am for personal responsibility. ( you break the law you pay, you spend more than you can afford you pay, you make a
Bad investment you pay)
I am against both wars as they now stand. ( I could care less about people in other countries, let them fight it out and
determine their own destinys)
I am for a strong defense. (a strong defense means when we are attacted or threatened we respond with brutal force,
defeat the enemy and then leave. Let the vanquished fend for themselves afterword)
I am for social security, universal healthcare, care for the disabled, limited help for poor families with children for citizens
only. (being a citizen is a priviledge and should be something immigrants strive for)
abolishion of taxes on corporations that manufacture for export only.
Capital gains should not be reduced. ( I work my ass off and pay taxes and those who play the investment casino can pay
theirs too.

Are you a teabagger? I dunno, how do you respond to the following links?

TAX DAY TEA PARTY 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbyFeFhUTmI

Newt Gingrich: Tea Party Turning Into The 'Militant' Wing Of GOP
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/22/newt-gingrich-tea-party-t_n_548250.html

http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/thepublicsquare/2009/11/11/authoritarianism-in-america/

Deanrite, I, too, have been curious where my values and beliefs put me in the political spectrum. I do shy away from labels due to their limiting factors but curiosity led me to a few surveys though 'Tea Bagger' wasn't an option. I find myself to be just left of center and somewhat Libertarian.

Now I'll watch kentm's link and see if I'm a Tea Bag.

Looking at this video from DC tax day protest, I am NOT a Tea Bag

http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/new-left-media-at-the-tax-day-tea-party-protests/

Other than a few areas, it turns out I am a Deanrite Party follower. About 85% match.

Bap33 says

Other than a few areas, it turns out I am a Deanrite Party follower. About 85% match.

Yeah, I'm like a 95% match. Deanrite for Prez!

Ha!

Well just elect me creator of the universe.

Any of you hear of the Coffee Party?

"A key difference is in our emphasis on the democratic process, on respectful and civil engagement with one another and with our elected officials. In the current climate, too many Americans are afraid to participate, and find the process itself too alienating, because it is dominated by people with extreme opinions and extreme tactics. It's hard to speak up when others in the room are screaming. So in the end, we may want some of the same things, but we our hoping our journey getting there will be very different."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Party_USA

Leigh says

Any of you hear of the Coffee Party?
“A key difference is in our emphasis on the democratic process, on respectful and civil engagement with one another and with our elected officials. In the current climate, too many Americans are afraid to participate, and find the process itself too alienating, because it is dominated by people with extreme opinions and extreme tactics. It’s hard to speak up when others in the room are screaming. So in the end, we may want some of the same things, but we our hoping our journey getting there will be very different.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Party_USA

Oh crap! Now Starbucks will put one on every corner! Oh, wait...

elliemae says

Simcha - I think I love you! You can hang out in my crib anytime!

LOL! Sure, I don't get to Utah much though (at all... the last time I was there was when I drove the 80 from Iowa to move here). If you come to visit your family, let's go out for drinks 'n such.

simchaland says

elliemae says
Simcha - I think I love you! You can hang out in my crib anytime!
LOL! Sure, I don’t get to Utah much though (at all… the last time I was there was when I drove the 80 from Iowa to move here). If you come to visit your family, let’s go out for drinks ‘n such.

Just amazing! Even in internet forums, every chick swoons over the gay dude. Completely off topic: what is it abuot gay dudes that makes straight chicks love them so much? A more difficult question: what is it about straight dudes, that makes lesbians hate them? I have never been able to figure that one out.

CBOEtrader says

simchaland says

elliemae says
Simcha - I think I love you! You can hang out in my crib anytime!
LOL! Sure, I don’t get to Utah much though (at all… the last time I was there was when I drove the 80 from Iowa to move here). If you come to visit your family, let’s go out for drinks ‘n such.

Just amazing! Even in internet forums, every chick swoons over the gay dude. Completely off topic: what is it abuot gay dudes that makes straight chicks love them so much? A more difficult question: what is it about straight dudes, that makes lesbians hate them? I have never been able to figure that one out.

It's not that he's gay that makes me swoon. It's that he caught some pretty obscure movie references (including the mention of the word "crib.)" That gets me every time. I love a man whose sense of humor goes to eleven.

I think that the stereotypical woman swoons over the stereotypical gay dude because he knows how to dress and is a sensitive man. But not every gay man knows how to dress or cares about being sensitive, nor is every woman attracted to every type of man.

IMHO some militant lesbians hate straight men - not all lesbians hate men. But my observations aren't based on personal info, because I live in a very sexually repressed area of the country where a gay man is welcome to be gay as long as he "acts like" a straight man - and a militant lesbian (or any lesbian) is welcome to be a militant lesbian as long as she doesn't act "militant" and doesn't act like a lesbian. All they have to do is act like they like the opposite sex and then we won't have to think about the abhorrent things that they do with people whose parts are like theirs.

Meanwhile, we still practice abhorrent stuff in our bedrooms, but we do it behind closed doors and with people of the opposite sex (or a couple of people?). In some communities, we do it with minor children who have been assigned as a second, third or fourth wife... But that's okay, because it's not with people whose parts are the same as ours.

FYI, most people in Utah do not practice polygamy nor do they believe in it. Polygamy was denounced by the church in the late 1800's or so because of political pressures. It's interesting to note (at least to me) that there's a church sponsored program called "evergreen" that helps homosexuals overcome abhorrent thoughts & behaviors. A friend of mine says it's the best place for him to pick up men...

http://www.evergreeninternational.org/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_would_the_Mormon_church_denounce_polygamy_if_the_Mormon_founders_taught_and_practiced_polygamy

Ha! Kookie Mormons. Why don't Mormons make love standing up? Because they're afraid someone will think they're dancing. Here at the holiday inn- all week.

for future reference, I am a male lesbian.

Tenouncetrout says

simchaland says

The pictures speak for themselves.

The pictures say people know how to use photo shop and take pictures.
They don’t tell me if they are true or not.
I remember after the Chinese Olympics people were posting pictures they got from a blog that got from Google, of signs of Mal worded signs, most of them were photo shop alters.
Again though note the first picture, the sign directly over his head.
Liberals are so far out of touch that you choose to group everyone as a whole based on a the outspoken, and not the silent angry ones that are obviously listening to this extreme right wing rhetoric. Why? Oh maybe they are taking their chances over the Extreme Left bipolarization that is going on in Washington.
Both Parties are Off their Meds, lets be perfectly clear here.
All I’m saying, you’re not going to win that other 80-90%, that aren’t racist ignorant inbreds over by calling them as such, while not at least acknowledging the follies of this administration. There’s no common ground other wise. This 2 party system you guys demanded, is poised to bite you in the ass.
NOW you want to call the other party a bunch of Nimka Poops.
Democracy making, sure is hard work ain’t it?

When is the last time you been to a liberal rally with such racist themes?

These were not one off incidents and cannot be overlooked as if the entire party is not a group of southern rebels who are on a white power movement. Fortunately for us they hide behind the rallys and dont take this behavior to the workplace or do they.....you think anyone of these people would hire a black, Jewish or Mexican?..I doubt they would. We need to ride America of this type of hatred.

kentm says

Are you a teabagger? I dunno, how do you respond to the following links?
TAX DAY TEA PARTY 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbyFeFhUTmI
Newt Gingrich: Tea Party Turning Into The ‘Militant’ Wing Of GOP
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/22/newt-gingrich-tea-party-t_n_548250.html
http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/thepublicsquare/2009/11/11/authoritarianism-in-america/

The tea party is composed of the arch conservatives to the far right and the so-called rich (100k - 200k) business owners who have fooled themselves into thinking they are running at the same level as Goldman Sachs. For the members to be claiminig that there taxes have increased although the facts show different is a testament to their stupidity and hatred.

The Tea Party is about nothing more than the fear of a black president. Period.

4X says

When is the last time you been to a liberal rally with such racist themes?

These were not one off incidents and cannot be overlooked as if the entire party is not a group of southern rebels who are on a white power movement. Fortunately for us they hide behind the rallys and dont take this behavior to the workplace or do they…..you think anyone of these people would hire a black, Jewish or Mexican?..I doubt they would. We need to ride America of this type of hatred.

Brace your self Jr.

There's no solid proof in not one damn one of those photos that say exactly where they were taken.
I can't tell if they were taken by one Republican telling a Right winger to hold his beer while he took a pose, or if two Liberal revisionist made some nifty signs and out fits and went on a photo shoot.
They are pics taken from the internet.

As far as I know that's you in those pictures.

That's a good point. My guess is that the pictures were taken by aliens trying to pose as angry white Republicans. The ruse was well done--those aliens even misspelled some of the signs in the same way the redneck, racist, tea party activists would have. I need to find me some of those glasses that Roddy Piper wore...

And in this video of the protests in DC on tax day the librul media hired a bunch of actors to play stupid. Did you see this?!?!!?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/new-left-media-at-the-tax-day-tea-party-protests/

When questioned about their concerns the person would just rattle off a bunch of bumper sticker phrases. When the reporter mentioned that Obama has actually cut taxes for 95% of the population some would pause and then say "LIES".

You can't make some of this stuff up.

Do you think they found the most coherent ones to talk to?

You folks make GREAT subjects. You take anything you see as exactly as it's presented with out question.

While OBAMA and this administration LIES to you hourly and you don't question it once.

Tenouncetrout says

4X says

When is the last time you been to a liberal rally with such racist themes?
These were not one off incidents and cannot be overlooked as if the entire party is not a group of southern rebels who are on a white power movement. Fortunately for us they hide behind the rallys and dont take this behavior to the workplace or do they…..you think anyone of these people would hire a black, Jewish or Mexican?..I doubt they would. We need to ride America of this type of hatred.

Brace your self Jr.
There’s no solid proof in not one damn one of those photos that say exactly where they were taken.
I can’t tell if they were taken by one Republican telling a Right winger to hold his beer while he took a pose, or if two Liberal revisionist made some nifty signs and out fits and went on a photo shoot.
They are pics taken from the internet.
As far as I know that’s you in those pictures.

TOT .. excellant post .. and like most excellant posts that do not make the leftisits on PatNet feel warm and fuzzy, it will be ignored. Again, great point.

Question: Since the ILLEGAL immigration law in Az has been challenged by Mexico, are we racist conservos allowed to suggest that America's ILLEGAL immigration issue is also Mexican based?

Tenouncetrout says

Do you think they found the most coherent ones to talk to?

Do you think they had to look very hard to find these guys?

Some of my facebook friends will post things like, "they are taking away our freedoms," re: health care bill, or "insurance companies are the problem." So I take the opportunity to engage in conversation. I ask about their concerns and I ask about ideas for solutions.

You know what? I have yet to hear any concrete solutions. The closest I got was 'insurance companies need to be regulated." No details, ever. Just a lot of terms like 'socialism', 'taking away our rights'.

I'm an RN. I see healthcare in action 36hrs per week then there are my own personal experiences.

If folks think Glenn Beck et al have all the anwers then why can't they repeat them? Why can't Sarah Palin take the time to tell us how to get 'small government'? Where should we make the cuts.

Show me where I can find the answers the folks on the right think they have but aren't 'coherent' enough to elaborate.

So I'm searching Fox archives to find out what Glenn Beck offers for solutions and here is my 1st hit:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589808,00.html

I'm not sure of the references to NBC or MSNBC and I really don't get this whole rant. Anyone care to interpret?

And then I hear Beck compare health care reform to Flight 93 on 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Chamberlain meeting Hitler, and Hindenburg?!?!?

And then I hear the Rush Limbaugh threat, and I paraphrase, "I'll move to Costa Rica if this bill passes" where he will partake in their socialized medicine? Maybe the oxy is easier to get on the black market?

This is painful.

Yes Glen Beck is a super huge Douche only over shadowed by the news Commentary staff of NPR. Then a close third comes Rush.

Just so we're straight, on the hierarchy of Jibber Jab talking heads, of who, and who should not, be taken seriously.

When questioned about their concerns the person would just rattle off a bunch of bumper sticker phrases. When the reporter mentioned that Obama has actually cut taxes for 95% of the population some would pause and then say “LIES”.

Obama hasn't raised marginal taxes yet, but his campaign promise was that he wouldn't raise any taxes on those earning under $250k per year and he has. In fact, he promised a middle class tax CUT, didn't he? He also promised a "pay as we go" economic policy during his campaign. More lies. Shortly after taking office Obama raised cigarette taxes 150%, and the recently passed Obamacare bill raises numerous different taxes on people making under $250k. This short youtube video names them specifically http://ur.lc/irr . So it appears that the Tea Party folks are better informed than their detractors. The youtube video guy and Leigh's criticisms being typical case-in-point examples of this.

More importantly, the current deficit spending is too massive http://ur.lc/fkx to continue without tax increases. Tea Partiers instinctively know these deficits will lead to tax increases whereas their ill-informed detractors keep parrotting talking points about how Obama promised not to raise taxes... as if those promises mean anything given the realities of the deficit spending.

The Tea Party is about nothing more than the fear of a black president. Period.

Tiny, tiny little minds

Did you see this trailer for I.O.U.S.A?

http://www.iousathemovie.com/

Yes, we are screwed. And I think that documentary underestimates costs of war, VA/TriCare costs. It will take an increase in taxes AND massive budget cuts to get where we need to go.

So the tax increases in the middle class in the hc bill, are you speaking of the tanning bed tax?!?

"...and the recently passed Obamacare bill raises numerous different taxes on people making under $250k..."

Which taxes do you speak of?

When you speak of "Commentary on NPR" which shows do you speak of? News Hour with Jim Lehrer? Frontline?

Amazing that the middle class is paying less taxes than ever, yet some of them PERCEIVE that they have been raised? This is just sorting out those who cannot comprehend simple math. I got a bigger refund than ever before this year.

Vicente says

Amazing that the middle class is paying less taxes than ever, yet some of them PERCEIVE that they have been raised? This is just sorting out those who cannot comprehend simple math. I got a bigger refund than ever before this year.

When I had my interest on mortgage and property tax deduction on top of my child credit and child care deduction my federal income tax rate was 2.9% per Turbo Tax! And I ain't poor. Who the heck is paying for these wars, etc...oh, that's right, the federal credit card in action.

And in 2009 47% paid ZERO in Federal income tax!!! oh, but we are being taxed to death!

And this year, no federal tax on inheritance...let's see how that plays out in December!

ZippyDDoodah says

So it appears that the Tea Party folks are better informed than their detractors.

No, not so much. If you have to resort to tanning bed and cigarette taxes, then you don't have much to complain about. What I don't understand is where these Tea Party activists were during the Bush tenure? He inherited a balanced budget and then proceeded to put the country so far in debt that it will be almost impossible to dig out. Why the sudden anger?

Obama has managed to avert a depression and gotten the economy seemingly on the right path in ~ 1 year. He tried to get a commission formed to address the deficit but it was the Republicans that said no. What were they afraid of?

Which taxes do you speak of?

I named them in my post and referred you to others in the video. Can you read? Which "tax cuts" were you referring to, unless you're twisting "one time rebate" for some into something called tax cuts.

You come on here posting as if the Tea Partiers are a bunch of easily led dupes whereas you and others are so enlightened by lecturing them on the 'realities' of tax cuts, yet when it's pointed out to you that the Tea Partiers know very well the situation with regards to their concern over deficit spending and the taxes that will inevitably lead to (not including taxes already raised which were pointed out to you), you agree that the Tea Party has a legitimate gripe in their #1 concern - extreme deficit spending. So if you agree that the Tea Parties have it right on their single most important issue of concern, then on what basis are you claiming that they are wrong and misled as you have written upthread?

What I don’t understand is where these Tea Party activists were during the Bush tenure?

They were screaming over his spending policies. Do you have any evidence we/they weren't? It is simply a lie to assert that these same people were not pissed off over Bush's spending. However, Obama has taken a bad situation and made it 10x WORSE http://ur.lc/fkx , and that's after Obama campaigned promising a "pay as we go" "net spending cut" economic policy. That Obama took such sweeping big spending actions just 3 or 4 months after making those promises makes it clear that Obama never intended to keep those promises. Obama is simply not an honest man and cannot be trusted. His proponents defend and excuse his lies. Are you one of them?