patrick.net

Does your herbalist have an MD? Just asking. If an RW can have an MD, why not a herbalist?

No. Not that I know of.

Of course, if I break a leg I would go to a doctor.

HARM,

Love the debt/diet analogy! In the end, it's all about our consumption habits and immediate gratification. I'm making a genuine effort to educate myself about new methods to deal with debt.

Even with an "ideal entry point" it just doesn't make any sense for anyone here over say 30 to take the plunge without a plan as to how we're going to pay the damn thing off. We've all looked at bi-weekly payments and it's certainly a step in the right direction but that typically only knocks off about 8 years on a 30 yr. FRM. Some of the more "untraditional" programs I've looked at are about the inverse where depending on the amount borrowed it's possible to have your home paid off in 8-10 years.

In keeping w/your analogy, if it means "tightening your belt" then I'll learn to live with it.

I support making Cupertino to Condotino…

I wish they have high-rise (40+ stories) condos here. :(

Thats nice SFWoman..
I would like to get a contact info if you dont mind.

Peter P,

If that herbalist is a Chinese educated traditional medicinist, he or she should definitely have a "medical" degree from a Chinese institution of at least B.S. or above.

Ditto acupuncturists. They're all considered equivalent to doctors and some go through very rigorous training.

I'm not a fan of traditional or modern medicine. I believe in induced fevers and really hot showers. They probably kill a lot of brain cells and they might one day lead to my early death, but they do wonders at fixing me up quick without obvious after effects.

disclaimer: not medical advice.

If that herbalist is a Chinese educated traditional medicinist, he or she should definitely have a “medical” degree from a Chinese institution of at least B.S. or above.

I think they do.

I love my dentist and my optometrist though.

I believe in induced fevers and really hot showers.

Huh? I believe in mind over body though.

They probably kill a lot of brain cells and they might one day lead to my early death, but they do wonders at fixing me up quick without obvious after effects.

Perhaps I will try.

I love my dentist and my optometrist though.

You love them?

Very platonically. As much as a patient can love doctors who she sees twice a year and still not think about them once she leaves their office.

New thread: Soft-landing 2.0

When a person can get more for not working, the system is severely out of whack.

I think California needs to augment the proposition 13.
The healthcare cost to homeowners older 60 to increase by no more than 1% per anum.
They deserve to be protected because they're homeowners right?

Peter P Says:

Skibum is going to hate me now.

No, I don't hate you. I just hope you have the common sense to see an MD when warranted.

@Phil,
It's sad but true. US healthcare has a lot of problems. If your main interface with the system is through an ER, the problems are greatly magnified. ER's are the worst part of the heathcare system, as they shoulder an inordinate burden of uninsured. Especially those who think their primary care doctor is "Dr. ER."

SFWoman Says:

> I have had two friends call me from Disney World
> because they were astounded at all of the gigantically
> obese families walking around with their obese
> children carrying 32 ounce sodas and eating ice creams.

Why don’t thin people go to Theme Parks or Wal Mart? It seems like almost every man, woman and child (over 10 years old) at a Theme Park or Wal Mart looks like they weigh more that I do (a tall 40 something guy)…

The Jon Said:

> A lot of people think that if they exercise a little they
> can eat like crazy but that’s really the wrong way to
> think about it. For better or worse, the human body
> is pretty efficient. A 10k race (not jog) will burn
> around 850 - 1000 calories.

I have friends who tell me that they “work out” and are putting on weight and it turns out that they only work out for a couple hours a MONTH! I have never met a fat person that works out for an honest five hours a week.

Then HARM Says:

> Exactly. For most people (SQT and professional marathon
> runners excluded), it’s almost impossible to lose weight
> through exercise alone, unless you also combine it with a
> healthier diet & fewer calories. The amount of exercise it
> would take to burn off all the empty calories from a typical
> obsese person’s diet is staggering –and for most people,
> unrealistic.

I agree that “most people” will not loose much weight with exercise, but as I mentioned above it has more to do with the fact that “most people” don’t (and won’t ever) really do much exercise. Once someone is in decent shape they can run 20K or ride 40K in a little over an hour. If they swim a couple miles and/or spend a little over an hour in the weight room on days they are not running or riding they can pretty much eat anything they want.

I think that the reason people are so much fatter today is that people start getting fat earlier. I have posted this before, that I can’t think of the last time I saw a kid walking or riding a bike around the city. As a kid I remember racing Big Wheels (little plastic trikes with plastic wheels for those who don’t remember) down Laguna toward Green Street when visiting a friend in the city and riding my BMX bike over Highway 92 to Half Moon Bay (about 40 miles round trip) multiple times each summer (and every year for the Pumpkin Festival when the bikes were actually faster than driving) with friends when we were as young as 12. I bet SF Woman’s friends would cringe in horror of the thought of letting their kids today walk more than a block by themselves and would call child protective services if they heard a parent was letting a 12 year old (with no helmet) ride a single speed bike (with no reflectors) on a highway (with no real bike lane)…

I fear child preadators more. I live right next to a park, and unfortunately that’s a favorite hangout for people whom you do not want around your kids. I do a Megan’s Law search fairly regularly to see who lives around here with a record.

Perhaps child predators should be required to wear a transponder. Parents can have a device that beeps if they even come nearby.

Thailand and India have gone into state of the art world class health care specifically to serve the needs of those of us in the first world. Most everything else is being outsourced. A health care exodus is growing. Mexico, Brazil and many other 2nd and 3rd tier economies are trending toward following Thailand. Need a triple by-pass? How about 10-15k $USD in India as opposed to $150-200k stateside, followed shortly thereafter by bankruptcy? Go East old men, go East.

Mike,

I agree with most of your points re: corruption and why "pure" socialized medicine would fail in the US, with a few exceptions/caveats:

The doctor’s for instance are grossly overpaid. I recently had to visit an emergency room. Cost for the doctor was $465.00.

Before declaring doctors here "overpaid", you should consider that: a) malpractice insurance and legal fees will consume a huge portion of that doctor's lifetime earnings, and b) s/he probably took on a quarter-million dollars in student loans just to get that MD (more for specialists), which s/he will spend the next 10-20 years paying off.

Well, for starters, the politicians decided the National Health Service Fund was a good source to “raid” if money was needed elsewhere so even though it’s a National Health Service Fund, the politicians steal from the fund to pay for other things.

If this is going on routinely in Britain, how can you unequivocally state that "America is one of the most corrupt countries in the world"? Our government's corrupt to the core --not debating that-- but if you're going to state that we're more corrupt than every other nation, better have some facts to back it up. Just sayin'....

According to Transparency International's 2005 corruption perceptions index (a different "CPI" than we're used to tallking about), the USA is the 17th least corrupt among the 159 nations surveyed. The UK was 11th, and Canada ranked 14th.

I would also point out one elephant in the room you failed to mention: illegal aliens and free-ridership. This alone is bankrupting emergency rooms and trauma centers along border states right now. There is no way we can simply absorb the hundreds of billions in costs from the tens of millions of uninsured non-taxpaying illegals if 100% socialized medicine were mandated overnight.

MD's in England make about the same per week as they do here. This factors in the 12-14 weeks of vacation they now take in England. With massive illegal immigration and abuse, the NHS will collapse soon anyway. It is all the talk in the UK. I talk to doctors who have trained and practiced everywhere. none would deny that the highest medical standards are in the US. You dont want medical care when you are 80? Great. The govt will eventually deprive you of that option anyway. The # of grotesquely obese folk at the theme parks is startling. But stand outside any supermarket for 10 minutes. You may never eat again. If our sports icons were Lance Armstrong, Beckham,Gretzky, Federer, and Jungberg instead of fatsos in the NFL, NBA, MLB, NASCAR, and PGA, we would have slimmer waistlines I assure you.

Height of a population is probably indicative of its health. As a nation, the US is actually getting shorter not taller. This is independent of the Mexican and asian influx. Probably correlates with our poor nutrition. The Dutch are purported to have had the greatest increase in height. The height studies generated by a former U. of Chicago Sociologist received some US media coverage and then was quickly banished. We dont like bad news here......

I would never let my family receive any advanced medical care in europe. Much less the Far east. It is interesting that the top soccer players in europe, sponsored by multi-billionaire owners, come to the US for any orthopedic issue. They have access to the best of Europe yet come to the states.

Though arguably, the twin pillor of malpractice insurance malfeasance lies in lack of AMA regulation (by not kicking out bad doctors) and ... crazy southern small town juries.

Note that the US healthcare system is ranked 37th in the world for quality of healthcare, marked most notably by 'denial of access to care for those who need it' (by WHO assessment)

it's 'the best quality healthcare in the world, for those who can afford it'

(this is only the 6th time i've posted that finding on patrick.net, but someone always pops up to say it's otherwise)

more on this soon, i've gotta step out... the NHS might be starved of funds, universal healthcare in Oz is still working well, for 'free', but, like the UK, doctors and nurses are paid less well than US, and it's a flatter wage structure in general... the US system, in the same report, is noted for high 'labour' costs and inefficient insurance systems blowing out budgets -- high labour costs -- read 'doctors are gouging you all'...

mike's right. everyone else is wrong. :P

every country wants to be 'great', or just seeking to peacefully coexist with others. elevating one country's right to be 'great' over others smacks of hubris, self-centredness, insularity and a double standard. it is almost certainly not sustainable or repeatable without large scale warfare breaking out, as per the european nation states up until the mid-20th century.

this to ponder from the australian bulletin 3/10 (or 10/3):

Johnny's jihadists

Leaked US military intelligence is ambiguous on Iraq and terrorism, but it may tap into growing anti-Americanism in Australia.

John Howard and his advisers were puzzled when his post-budget visit to Washington in May went over like a lead balloon back home. As Howard was given the full White House VIP treatment, including a lavish state dinner, and George W. Bush heaped praise by the shovelful on the prime minister he has flattered with the "man of steel" nickname, Australians were distinctly unimpressed. Now the Lowy Institute's poll on public opinion and foreign policy has given the PM some understanding of why the extraordinary display of mutual backslapping turned out to be a minus rather than a plus with the electorate.

The finding that only 58% of Australians have positive feelings for the US (even Indonesia scored 52%) is astonishing. It will certainly have astonished Howard. The finding that 68% think we take too much notice of US views in our foreign policy should alarm him. The executive summary of the most comprehensive survey of Australian public opinion ever taken on international policy refers to "a seam of antipathy towards the US and its influence over our affairs". Nothing could have illustrated America's influence over Australia's affairs more starkly than Howard's fawning in Washington.

The Lowy Institute produced its "Australians Speak" report just days after leaks forced the White House to declassify part of a US National Intelligence Estimate titled "Trends in Global Terrorism". That NIE confirms beyond any doubt that the invasion of Iraq was a terrible mistake in terms of the fight against terrorism. The document contains the assessment that "the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives". It identifies the Iraq jihad as one of the key "underlying factors ... fuelling the spread of the jihadist movement". It says bluntly: "The Iraq conflict has become the 'cause celebre' for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement". And, predicting an increase in suicide attacks and the use of improvised explosives by terrorists throughout the world, it warns that "fighters with experience in Iraq are a potential source of leadership for jihadists pursuing these tactics".

object to the methods. dislike aspects of the culture, so disagree that the world should be subject to one particular world view as tho it is the 'best' or only possible view. many other countries have learned to peacefully co-exist, at least in recent times, and keep hegemonic ideas to a minimum in the interests of peace -- britain, europe, and so on.

i think the US lost the plot straight after WWII, and has militarised and reconceptualised itself almost as though WWII is still going. and the relatively high infiltration of business interests into govt is disturbing. and too many other things to list...

you forgot that he was an insider trader also...

they were talking about forming a Federated Iraq broken into shi'ite, sunni and kurdish regions. there are kurds agitating for recognition and secession in turkey also. i don't think the US can just unilaterally withdraw from iraq and leave a huge random political quagmire behind. it would more than leave the US's reputation in tatters, it would make them look like a reckless occupying force who violated a national's sovereignty for no reason and then failed in carrying out their hidden agenda. you couldn't show your face in the UN or even to the american people again. if you can just confabulate WMD in any country as a pretext for invading and then pull out leaving a mess behind, no country is safe from the same tactic from any other country. this is history repeating vis-a-vis vietnam, not just rhyming. this is my 'we're still fighting WWII' thesis. interesting how we don't learn in finance, relationships and warfare, only in technology...

object to the methods AND the attitude...

Asrid, physicians are the most regulated and scrutinized of all occupations. The AMA has very limited power and its the responsibility of State Med Bds to scrutinized physicians. after 4 years of university, 4-5 medical school, 3-8 years residency,endless tests and examinations, and typically 3-5 years slaving for a seasoned MD, there are very few "bad" doctors. In fact the MD's who garner the most litigation tend to be some of the very very best. If lawyers really believe in malpractice as a panacea, then why is there essentially none in their own? Judges release childmolesters and murderers with no consequences. My attorney sits on a state board. He tells me a lawyer just about has to kill someone to have his license permanently revoked. And lets start with socialized legal care where I can get a 600$/hour attorney free!

doc1,

Legal aid and pro bono is available to the destitute and near destitute. Furthermore, the sort of legal services that gets villanized (ambulance chasers and frivilous law suits) are usually on contingency arrangments where the lawyer is the driving force behind the suit - not exactly the sort of stuff we need or even want to socialize.

For other legal services - individual people tend to under-utilize legal services in estate planning and tax planning. It's really the corporations suing each other that generate the majority of serious lawsuits. And I see no reason for the government to pay to curb their legal bills.

My impression is that the medical field, like the legal field, has very high barriers to entry, but once you're in, you're pretty good and it takes some fairly stupid things to get kicked out again.

I am well aware of our legal system having attended law school. My point was that lets start with socialized legal services whereby the 700/hour lawyers provide services to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. This is the system at many of the major medical Centers whereby the poorest can receive the attention of the best and brightest. Go to the trauma centers in NY and you will receive care from some of the best surgeons anywhere (and guess who goes there with a gunshot wound?) The doctors I know who have been sued the most are typically the BEST! And that makes them targets. And guess who these malpratice lawyers want on the jury? The most retarded. The AMA has nothing to say about these maters they are governed by state medical boards.

Well put, guys. To thoroughly critique the ahistorical, apolitical 'false consciousness' world view of sfguy would take more writing than the entire contents of patrick.net to date... However, the ethical considerations of respecting national sovereignty, of representing the truth fairly, and so on, made in the points above, seem to have been entirely glossed over. Also note the Bulletin article pasted above which suggests that even America's English-speaking 'allies' (UK and Oz) at the grassroots level dislike the current American foreign policy approach and world view intensively.

Glad to see you don’t object to US supremacy per se, just the current methods.

I do to both! I just don't see American culture and systems of government as being more desirable than, say, English or French culture. Europe and British Commonwealth countries have produced cheap, 'socia1ised medicine', decent equitable welfare states, low rates of incarceration, lower rates of homicide, and so on. You are just parroting an 'attitude' that whichever group you happen to belong to is automatically the best. If you hadn't seceded from Britain 200 years ago, Americans would have 'socia1ised medicine' now. And probably better English too, without silly inaccurate phrases like 'socia1ised medicine' being coined.

There’s certainly good reasons to be suspicious but I think the fact that the US had obviously NOT planned for an occupation of Iraq after the war was over, would suggest we had no such intention and expected a fairly representative government to materialize probably within 5-6 months.

I didn't know western-friendly (read anglo-american) puppet governments were guaranteed to be 'fairly representative'. e.g. the US has been more than happy to instate right wing despots in countries around the world when suitable to its interests, to the detriment of the local populaces, e.g. Indonesia, S. America. And why was the Shah of Iran deposed by a popular movement?

That’s “plan” has certainly been proven way off but it seems we’re still hanging on to some hope we can get some semblance of democracy going.

Well, the US has only got a rough semblance of democracy itself at present, so I guess you're in the best position to reliably reproduce that result.

You MIGHT be able to produce a more workable division of borders than the last colonial effort in the middle east left behind, namely the segregation of warring religious and cultural factions into semi-autonomous federated regions or similar. With the agreement of the majority of stakeholders, of course, being the populace itself. Just as the population of the US is turning against the Hitler-like aspirations of the neocons, and fighting back against obvious domestic election rigging practices. It's high time for electoral reform in the US system of so-called democracy also.

But the hypocrisy of going after WMD when all intelligence and reports pointed to the contrary, and leaving despots alone in all other regions of the world which are devoid of oil riches and strategic placement in a difficult area is a little too much to stomach.

Regarding staying in the Pacific Rim (Oz), another English colony 12,000 miles from the homeland, I'm willing to take my chances. Besides, I can always go back to UK ;) I would rather do the ethically right thing at each step rather than take ethical shortcuts and giant leaps of bad faith. Good results can be obtained by peaceful trade rather than military bullying in the interests of 'peace'.

You can't be ethical by being unethical. You can't take the moral high ground by taking the low ground. Ref deontology vs teleology.

- intensively
+intensely

back to journalism school...

Did the "west" win WW2? I think many scholars disagree. Half of Europe was lost to Communist Russia. Millions of Judeo-Christian people were slaughtered by the Russians.This has nearly destroyed European Christianity. The Communist Europe has yet to recover. Communist Red China became a major global force and certainly controls southeast Asia. What did Roosevelt do, again?

Did the "west" win WW2? I think many scholars disagree. Half of Europe was lost to Communist Russia. Millions of Judeo-Christian people were slaughtered by the Russians.This has nearly destroyed European Christianity. The Communist Europe has yet to recover. Communist Red China became a major global force and certainly controls southeast Asia. What did Roosevelt do, again?

Mike, contrary to the history that you may have learned via Hollywood, many AMERICAN and British historians believe we lost WW2. If you visited places like libraries or bookstores you may have garnered some of this info. Do you understand the basic facts that half of europe was subsequently enslaved by Russian Communists? And that they still or may never recover? Do you accept that Communist Russia murdered MILLIONS of Jews (or do they not count according to you?) Was the limited freedom of europe worth 500k US lives?(And trillions of US$). Was the rise and dominance of Communist NUCLEAR China in the vacuum left by defeated Japan a victory? Was the slaughter and starvation of milions of Chinese and Russians by the Communists a victory? Do you have friends or relatives that fought against Communist Russia only to be executed? Do you realize that many believe the terrorist threats around the world stem from Russian Communists/KGB? Some "victory"....

Yogurt, I agree totally that there is an obesity problem in the US and that it is essentially ignored. But at least there is some imperative to maintain health because some healthcare costs have to be covered by the patient. But imagine the US if NO personal expenditure on healthcare was required. It would definitely exacerbate the problem. And more great news: the FOX network demanded more commercial time from the MLB. Now, there will be even more time for the MLB fatasses to sit on the bench and "fight obesity".

Mike, to specifically answer your question: Yes I do have relatives that spoke against the totalitarian government and were executed. Slavery? which nation leads the way for slave reparations? Medical human experimentation? Pennsylvania prisons take the gold medal in the 1970's-plenty of human experimentation. Concentration camps? Communist Europe had plenty of them in post War2. Or do these prisoners not matter to you? Euthanasia? Sadly, it is happening even in the US and even more so in Europe.

Mike, I think we agree on just about everything actually. This forum is interesting to me because there are un-conventional points of view presented.