patrick.net

McHovel! I love it!

The simple beach house my wife and I built years ago in the Philippines was a total "bootstrap" operation. Funded w/tax refunds and c/c it was actually built in stages. She flew home for the big "ground breaking" and the main structure was roofed in about 3 weeks. The first place in the whole barrio w/ indoor flush toilet!

We did for about 12K. The land had been in the family for years so there wasn't any expense there but the major hassle was building it up high enough to prevent flooding during rainy season. They destroyed a "trike" (small motorcycle w/sidecar) hauling enough rock for the foundation.

Well drilling is done w/ a "tripod" of sorts and much manual labor and cheap rum (primary currency). Everybody was well fed and it looked like an old fashioned "barn raising" with plenty of arguing etc. Mrs. DinOr's half blind uncle painted the galvanized sheet metal roofing. They were later repainted.

The concrete ballisters for the front porch look great and the marble ledge is pretty much indestructible. Problems arise though when using coconut wood and it's service life is only about 10 years before weather and insects have their way so that's all had to be re-done. (Facia and interior framing). We've talked about adding a 2nd story basically for breeze way as a roofed in pavillion but we can't seem to agree on how to proceed.

I'm actively looking for raw land in Nye or Esmerelda counties (N and W of Las Vegas to construct my "secret undergound lair". I haven't actually sat down and looked at designs or anything just yet. I figure I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

Don't get me wrong by any stretch. I'm hardly a survivalist kind of guy. It's just if you spend much of your day being totally wired (dual line headset, two e-mails, multiple quote screens/research AND Bloomberg's/CNBC the idea of being "unplugged" or down-time looks better all the time.

I'm picturing a total purist hacienda style home w/stone courtyard w/one tree in the center. I realize the remote setting, oppressive heat and lack of necessities would turn most people off. Obviously this type of venture would not be done with an eye toward selling down the road at a profit. Done correctly, in time it should well blend in with the surrounding abandoned ruins, as if it had always been there.

SFWoman,

Like a lot of couples that "built" their own place my wifes primary contribution (as far as I can tell) consisted primarily of her shouting herself hoarse imploring "the help" to please stick to the drawings!

The old house (mostly bamboo) had electrical hook-up and we had a nephew that we put through college that was licensed to do the work. The hand pump off of the "dirty kitchen" was a mixed blessing. The youngest sister's (mildly retarded) primary function was to fetch water from the river and had done so since childhood. In time she learned to "embrace" the hand pump and offers to "top off" the neighbors but she misses her daily trips to the river.

There is no shortage of talent in India, but clients want employees who speak languages other than English.

Well, first they have to learn to speak english.

How about buying land and installing a modular home on it (not a manufactured home)? Does that have any advantages time-wise or cost-wise?

Is that even possible in the SF bay area?

Thanks in advance for the insight.

Redrum Realty

As as Indian in the BA, I can assure you Allah that most educated Indians speak decent english. True, they have an accent but who doesn't?

I am not sure what you meant by that comment.

As as Indian in the BA, I can assure you Allah that most educated Indians speak decent english. True, they have an accent but who doesn’t?

I am not sure what you meant by that comment.

I'm not going to start a fight over this, but many Indians and I'm not saying all of them are very difficult to understand. I am not talking about the majority of them that live in America, I'm talking about alot of them overseas that take jobs answering phones for US customers. I don't speak for myself, this is a well known fact.

OK. I agree with you on the hard to understand part. I already conceded that Indians speak english with an, uh, Indian accent.

I am sure english-speaking Indians find Americans hard to understand as well.

BTW, redrum realty was hilarious!

Sriram Gopalan and allah,

I can deal with the accent. My big issue with Indian call centers is that the vast majority of the staffers do not think "American" and this makes communication very difficult. I'd much prefer American call centers, even if they're staffed by technically less competent people. I find Indians to be much more rigid and inflexible.

And I completely blame their employers and the American companies who subcontract for this - training people to think like their customers (or at least comprehend their customers' requests) should be the priority of every call center from day 1.

I found this article about people putting down Westchester, NY schools. I wonder if discontentment with public schools is a national phenomena...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/13/nyregion/13private.html?hp&ex=1163480400&en=8a92843ed8aa356b&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Or it could just be another case of NYT branded rich people carping about nothing.

Sriram Gopalan,

Peter P has turned me into a fan of Michelle Kaufman Designs. They are modular and very visionary. She was up in Portland for an Architect's convention but I was busy at the time. Excellent finished product.

The problem my wife and I have noticed is that there IS a lot neglected inventory (and as sellers always due) they assume their home is at least as nice as new ones even though the kitchen is from the 70's! So if they price it at 400k and you put 50k into it, you'd be able to sell it for........ 450k! No thanks. Like the imbecile w/the Cupertino "shell house"? He started by saying you just have to "finish it" and slid into basically just selling it as a lot? A 749k lot?

Even many, most, all of the "tear downs" we've seen are priced on the assumption you'll live there and you'll put up w/endless short comings after you figure out tearing it down will be cost prohibitive. Actually I don't believe sellers even think past the part where they roll down the driveway w/big fat stacks!

I agree that most indian call centers are horrible. In fact, that is true for most Indian software outsourcing centers as well.

In fact, one of my main criteria when I switched jobs a few months ago was to find a company that didn't not outsource to India, China or wherever.

So, I do agree with astrid and allah (praise be to him :-)). My only objection was to the statement that Indians don't know english. I have seen day-time TV here; trust me, most Indians speak better english than that.

BTW, anyone have anything to say about modular homes?

I love modular. That's pretty much the only way most people can afford to build modernist home. They're also much better for controlling cost, construction time and quality, compared to stick built homes.

Oh, btw the notion of having a done on a shoestring budget undergound secret lair predates the boom/bubble for me. It's something I've always wanted to do. Building something where people that stumbled upon it would wonder, "how'd they do that?" How did that get here? More importantly, why?

Any putz can borrow a ton of money, go deep in a hole, pay someone else to do ALL the work except where the wife put decorative wallpaper above the splash guard in the kitchen and tell their friends "they" built it! WTF?

How is this an accomplishment? It's just another ugly display of MEW/ill advised 401K liquidation. I've also looked into "yurts" which are made right here in OR and are assembled with a few friends over a weekend. Hey at least YOU put the "kit" together! If it looks like it will be flooded or burn, (take it down). I'm told they're rather comfortable.

HARM - I love the straw bale idea & have that same book. I know a couple folks who have tried to build them and were thwarted at every turn by (1) local code restrictions and (2) lack of skilled labor & contractors willing to work with them. Then there was the problem of land - they work in a city and most of the land they had available was already owned by developers who wanted to build their own McHovel. As a result they were forced to look far outside the city & defeated their purpose. They currently live in a Midwestern shoe box ranch ‘cause that’s all they can afford.

You’ve gone to the seminars, and Cali is more rigid from a permitting & code perspective than fly over - can you comment? Do you have any interesting ‘lessons learned’? TIA.

I pretty much agree with all your comments --especially the part about lack of build-able land in and near big cities. That one was the real deal-breaker for me. My work requires me to be stationed either near downtown L.A. or downtown Oakland, and I just didn't relish the idea of a 90-minute+ commute (each way) to an area with less expensive build-able lots.

#1 (local code restrictions) can be overcome by selecting a city/county where SB/alternative construction is already established and welcomed. A good example would be Contra Costa County. They are one of the friendliest towards SB & green construction. Unfortunately, mostly due to their draconian UBL restrictions, they are also one of the most expensive places to build, due to lack of available lots. Sort of a best & worst of both worlds situation. If the city/county officials where you want to build are unfamiliar with SB, you will probably have to educate them. The local chapter of CASBA (or a sister organization for other states) can really help you out here.

#2 (lack of skilled labor & contractors). This is no longer the impediment it once was, thanks to about 15 years of more or less steady progress in SB construction. 15 years ago, if you said you wanted to build a SB house, most contractors would probably just look at you funny. Now, even if they're not experienced themselves, they probably at least know someone who is. Again, the local chapter of CASBA will be an invaluable resource in locating skilled people.

alien,

Thanks for the feedback. That's what I love about this blog. Many topics that would simply be ignored or met w/scorn are at least entertained here!

I lived for sometime in the Philippines. Electricity can be a fleeting thing. One night (before a huge command inspection) I had to lay my uniform out and iron it 2-3 minutes at a time when the power came on and then shut down as demand came back on line. You learn not to count on it.

Since our daughters will NEVER leave OR the undergound lair would be something to break up the doldrums of our decidedly bleak winters. I love Las Vegas (and that's the problem). The big issue I see is making such a simple place "squatter/vandal proof" w/o making it a fortress, and of course the expense of a fortress!

alien,

Ditto on demand. Even here (our full time residence) seldom do we break $90 power bills. All too often I see people decide they need more room. So they put on an addition. Well, there's NFW they're going to the expense of an addition and NOT put power in it. So in go the outlets and lighting fixtures! More outlets and nothing to go in them? No way. Now we have to run out and buy things to plug into these outlets to justify the expense.

After each outlet is taxed to the max we'll need to put in more outlets and on and on it goes! Insane. Why do we need an electrical clock in a sitting/drawing room where the people use it maybe once every other week at best?

Oh, and where is ConfusedRealtor? Surely s/he would like to mock us impoverished peasants for entertaining the notion of building our pathetic mud huts in the shadow of his/her opulent manse. Far too primitive for the likes of CR, who I'm sure would not deign to get his/her manicured hands dirty.

alien,

That was *astrid's suggestion sometime back as well. Stealth over strength. It's such an intimidating climate anyway I doubt the folks that venture that far off the beaten path are there to vandalize etc.

The "Big Island" in HI has become something of leader in water catchment technology. It's one of the rainiest places on the planet so using your roof, gutters, filters and barrels makes sense! Since it's basically a gravity feed system little if any power is needed.

Now in Nye or Esmerelda county? I can see it to take advantage of sudden rains and set up a time release to water your trees/plants to aid in dust control when you can't be there! We had a Dr. in N. Portland use it for laundry, bathing etc. and the city accused him of tampering w/his water meter! True story. When the city tested it, his water was a better quality than the theirs!

I’m picturing a total purist hacienda style home w/stone courtyard w/one tree in the center... Done correctly, in time it should well blend in with the surrounding abandoned ruins, as if it had always been there.

Since our daughters will NEVER leave OR the undergound lair would be something to break up the doldrums of our decidedly bleak winters.

:lol: DinOR, are you seriously considering building a (partly) underground lair? Aside from being very Austin Powers villain-chic, it would have the added benefit of being 15-20 degrees cooler than above-ground dwellings. And I'll bet the girls would love it --living in a (well appointed) cave!

HARM,

Like I say, still very much in a fledgling state but the basic idea was to have an above ground "pavillion" w/outdoor kitchen (no not like the ones you see on HGTV!) more like at a state park etc. There really wouldn't be anything of value to steal, break etc. and I would set up the "facilities" like a rest stop restroom.

Below ground level, modest accomodations for 4-6 people. If on a sloped lot it could actually be part of the same structure w/half being earth covered. Let's just say I have my research cut out for me.

alien,

That's pretty interesting. I'd once read that many of the "spaghetti westerns" were actually filmed in western Spain and Portugal b/c of it's tremendous likeness to the American SW!

Water catchment tech. got my attention b/c we lived off a shared well for 10 years and by Aug/Sept there were times when you couldn't flush, wash clothes, shower and do dishes at the same time! Yeah, in a place that rains 9 months out of the year!

When I first began researching I learned that in the 1800's having a cistern in the attic was a common practice for homes nice enough to have an upstairs bathroom. (Think pull chain above the commode). So there's really nothing new about it.

DinOR,

Not a bad idea, really. Rob Roy's book has a chapter on underground dwellings as I recall. If you're going to semi-camouflage the house, why not go all the way and create a post-Apocalyptic shell above ground with a concealed hatch/elevator shaft that provides access to the 'real' Casa del DinOR? A few partly demolished cinder block walls festooned with fire-blackened skeletons should keep the "raiders" at bay.

Call it 'Road Warrior chic'? ;-)

dryfly,

Our "P.I" beach house was built before the "California Kitsch" caught on in the islands. It's really just 1,200 sq. ft. or so one level concrete block laid on a poured slab foundation. Stucco applied and wuh-lah. It was started in the late 80's before digital cameras but we did manage to get a few pictures (mostly of the "crew" having beers though).

I really do miss the old bamboo house though. It's where my wife was born and had a lot of great memories. It was built by her grandfather but needed constant maint! Also, they can be a fire hazard when power goes out and people light lamps/candles. They didn't have power until the late 70's.

HARM,

LOL! Great idea! No seriously, before the "meth madness" none of these would be issues. We've also considered getting some old dude to be a "house sitter" and live there for free as long as he keeps it up. It's actually a pretty common practice in central/eastern OR.

You know, I'm not totally sure I could pull this "remote living" thing off either? I suppose the easy thing to do would be to throw in the towel, concede the whole thing was silly and unworkable and line up in tidy little rows w/the rest, complete w/smooching major hiney at HOA meetings?

NFW! I had tinkered w/the idea of going to Baja, I've always kind of dug it but continue to hear horror stories etc. Look, if you get the land for a few grand and can pay for the concrete etc. out of pocket what do you really have to lose?

Anyone know the proper dimensions for a MG-42 bunker?

DiNOR,

Sounds like you need one of these:
http://www.missilebases.com/
I noticed a lot of "price reduced" signs on their web page, so, evidently, the real estate crunch is also hitting the underground fortress market.

Paul,
I’m guessing cost of construction in the 300k range. If you build a 3 unit building, rent 2 units at $1,800 each and live in the third I think the numbers above would work.
If you do go this route, build them as condos. This, in my mind, is one of the better retirement plans you can conjur up. When you are ready to cash out, serially move through the units in two year intervals and claim your $500k tax free profits (assuming prices have gone up when you hit retirement). As FAB pointed out, its always better to sell your primary residence.

SP,

Now that's what I'm talking about! A few years back Pacific Yurts had one set up at the state fair and it was really cool. I think their most expensive model is like 12K? You can add a clear vented dome for a few extra bucks and they said the whole exterior can be replaced for a fraction of the cost.

Yeah, I once saw a missle silo for sale on e-bay but it was in "East Jeebus" WA. For obvious reasons they were seldom positioned near population centers? What I had thought (at least for the first few years) is that the "subterranean" portion would be limited to storing propane, generator etc? Think what a different place Las Vegas and Phoenix would be if all we saw above ground amounted to a "pool house" w/ a misting system vice and entire area that would be uninhabitable were it not for a/c?

I swear as a kid growing up in Chicago all of the huge commercial a/c units actually made it hotter outside. I've heard of it described as an "urban island" or something like that. One thing for sure, the McHovel isn't the answer.

dryfly,

To be honest the "P.I" provides about all the international intrigue I can handle. Yeah, I've greased my share of palms there. I was looking more for something that was a little warmer and yet within driving distance from OR on long weekends etc. There are many years here where the day after Labor Day it's starts to rain yet much of the country is enjoying a great "indian summer". Bend is saturated w/wannabe RE moguls so that's out.

I've also considered the Black Rock Desert and probably wouldn't be there when the "freak-a-thon" called Burning Man was going on anyway.

@dryfly,

Here's one tip I forgot to mention re: DIY/building from scratch. If you're planning on buying in a rural area, this pretty much means a septic system. Make sure you get a "perc" test on the soil before buying. Especially important if you plan on drilling a well. A full geological report is well worth the money, I'm told.

dryfly,

Uh, good questions. We did a thread a little while back about "What lengths does one have to go to escape the boom's grasp" and it was decided Pitcairn Island and parts of Tasmania were still affordable.

Ben Jones did a great piece on how "2nd/vacation homes" really were just another excuse to speculate! Many of the homes that are vacant most of the year in OR become heavens for "cookers". Lovely, isn't it?

Oh, and in really rural areas, you need to be sure there's even access to the property. This means, if there's no existing road that reaches your property, you will have to go the the assessor's and verify you will have the right-of-way to build one (in the sticks, this problem is more common than you might think). Sometimes, your neighbor must explicitly grant you permission to build an access road over their property or you're outta luck. Not to mention road-building can be very expensive.

HARM,

True. We had a septic system for 10 years. They are not maint. free. When we sold I told the buyer to think about it over the next five years. Our ground is very hard/rocky and didn't "leach" well.

@DinOR,

I've heard that bargains can still be had in Elbonia. Plus, there's plenty of free mud for building cobb or SB houses. :-)

HARM,

Sounds wonderful. Do they have timeshares there?

What some of us may find frustrating is b/c of the "ripple" like effect of the rolling bubble some of these areas are just now getting their moment in the sun. As is true of sellers in more established markets, they're reluctant to give up their 15 minutes.

What you note is true, much of what we might find on ebay etc. is likely just being sold from one poor guy to the next when it's revealed that the parcel is "land locked". Just a guess.

Just a thought.

The real idea of having a "retirement home" is to have a home that's paid off right? Well if it's done on the cheap and doubles as a true vacation home (meaning no/low payment) isn't that what most prudent people wind up with in the end anyway?

With unprecedented appreciation why would anyone bother with all of this? I mean, buy a house nothing down, wait a year or two, tap MEW and start building McHovel at Lake Woebegone right? That will be RE perma bulls argument right? Well now that's been blown right out of the water I don't believe we're the only ones that will be revisiting the time tested strategy of only biting off as much as you can chew.

Ate at Nopa in the city last week. All food we had was excellent except for the deserts which were very good. Reasonably priced, I’d highly recommend.

Thanks SFW, I will try it out.

RE: bathrooms

They should build master baths with double water closets. However, it still seems that people put more emphasis on kitchens than on baths. :(