patrick.net

Randy is a great factual debater. I admire him for that.

Malcolm

I'm sorry, I thought you meant the formative clause of my argument, not the verbiage from an agreement.

It's business. Sorry if commerce seems unfair, but people challenging an industry who in my opinion is just operating like anything else should be challenged. I believe that it should be a burden to get the government to unravel an industry, you don't want it so easy that every whiner gets reform laws passed.

MLS, the Canadian perspective.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/201219

Malcom, I will concede that anecdotal evidence gets thrown in there, but clearly it has enough merit for the justice department to get involved, per my first article. Does anyone know what the outcome of that lawsuit was?

Malcolm,

Just curious --why do you call DinOR "Dino"? Every time I see that, I think of a certain Stone Age reptilian cartoon pet.

FTC Action, 2006

Demonstrates the type of clause to which I was referring, and the fact that local MLS boards have indeed been found guilty in courts.

MLS agreements can be found on the internet, but you'll note that pretty much all of these are posted in violation of copyright, which the boards hold close to the vest.

July 13, 2006
FTC Charges Austin Board of Realtors with Illegally Restraining Competition
Board of Realtors Required to Eliminate 2005 Rule Blocking Internet Searches for Non-Traditional, Low-Cost Brokerage Properties

The Federal Trade Commission today charged the Austin Board of Realtors with violating the antitrust laws by effectively preventing consumers with real estate listing agreements for potentially lower-cost unbundled brokerage services from marketing their listings on important public Web sites. In settling the charges, ABOR is prohibited from adopting or enforcing any rule that treats one type of real estate listing agreement more advantageously than any other listing type, and from interfering with the ability of its members to enter into any kind of lawful listing agreement with home sellers.

I don't know, that's just how my mind read his name.

Every time I see that, I think of a certain Stone Age reptilian cartoon pet.

Don't laugh, I will not be surprised if dinosaurs reign your virtual neighborhoods soon. They deserve a second life.

I want the existing laws enforced. If MLS illegally prevents listings elsewhere I would have to agree with that point.

Isn't that what "Vinnie" says when he pops somebody in the knee caps?

Hey! It's just business, you understand. Nothin' personal.

Malcom, I can't speak for the 298 million in this country that are *not realtors but given their druthers I imagine most would prefer 1% over 6% if actually given a real choice. But hey what do I know I'm just a JBR?

Again with emphasis added:

July 13, 2006
FTC Charges Austin Board of Realtors with Illegally Restraining Competition
Board of Realtors Required to Eliminate 2005 Rule Blocking Internet Searches for Non-Traditional, Low-Cost Brokerage Properties

The Federal Trade Commission today charged the Austin Board of Realtors with violating the antitrust laws by effectively preventing consumers with real estate listing agreements for potentially lower-cost unbundled brokerage services from marketing their listings on important public Web sites. In settling the charges, ABOR is prohibited from adopting or enforcing any rule that treats one type of real estate listing agreement more advantageously than any other listing type, and from interfering with the ability of its members to enter into any kind of lawful listing agreement with home sellers.

I have no problem with someone filing a lawsuit against a business practice. I just don't hear agents whining about how unfair MLS is to them. Those would be the people who didn't like MLS if in fact it is what you say it is.

Nice debate, folks. Quite an enjoyable brawl.

The MLS may not be the megalith some think. for example:

I have bought homes with no realtor involved.

I have had a real estate agent show me homes "For Sale By Owner", he just wanted me to pay 2% directly, not from proceeds of sale.

I have sold homes on the MLS with a 4% commission.

I have bought a home from a Realtor that was advertised as an "exclusive listing" - not on the MLS. This particular Real Estate company (a Century 21 Affiliate) charged 3% for exclusive listings, and 6% for MLS.

DIN says
Malcom, I can’t speak for the 298 million in this country that are *not realtors but given their druthers I imagine most would prefer 1% over 6% if actually given a real choice. But hey what do I know I’m just a JBR?

THEN LET THEM NEGOTIATE THE COMMISSION IT IS A FREE COUNTRY!

@HARM,

I think it's been misspelled often enough that it's now become the norm? And I want people to know I was outta line when I said I was going to put Malcom's life's work next to the...... That was outta line. I apologize Malcom. That was *not cool. I apologize.

Randy, if your article is true (no reason to question) then what is your problem. The courts said they have to let them list elsewhere so how are they still in your opinion doing what you say they are?

Din, no offense taken. Please don't misunderstand viamently disagreeing with someone as lacking respect on a personal level.

Headset,

I don't want to say that "all" military types fit the bill but G.I's are USED to haggling! It's what they do all day. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect some single mom in Des Moines to get down and negotiate with some shark realtor that does this stuff for a living? Am I wrong here.

Hi_there,

How am I doing? Any pointers that might help me get my point across like bodgering the language or other helpful tips? O.K, I'll try that. Thanks,

DinOR

Malcolm,

I get the impression you think people who rail against NAR practices are also railing against our form of capitalism. Am I correct?

I think that is it in a way. I believe the court system should determine if particular business practices violates the law. If they do you will find me right along side of you, but I'm not going to sit back and nitpick businesses I don't care for because I don't see value in their servie. I think most of them are useless and the market cleans them up.

DinOr (aka dino) says:

"And I want people to know I was outta line when I said I was going to put Malcom’s life’s work next to the…"

Gee, I thought you meant it would be in the "Library," as to read when nature calls. You know, next to the Tom Clancy novel and the Playboy.

No Boston, not at all. Some of their logic though does seem to lead down that path. My hackles instantly go up when people for instance imply that the state or society can just waltz in and start tearing down people's IP.

Boston, thanks for actually asking instead of telling me what I believe.

You know, next to the Tom Clancy novel and the Playboy.

You know, you can always listen to the Tom Clancy audio book while reading the Playboy and at the same time watching CNBC for the next investment idea.

It's not a long manuscript so you only get a few wipes.

Malcom,

No seriously, I apologize. I mean that.

Malcolm

Because the MLS is organized as a consortium of local boards, which "collaborate" (or collude depending upon your judgment of the legality) to continually skirt rulings like the one I just posted. Whenever a ruling like this hits it targets a single MLS board, not all of them in aggregate. Any attempt to address the larger organization is politically defeated by lobbies. So case-law is difficult to bring to bear in these cases, which are most often settled (as this one was).

Meanwhile many hundreds of other MLS boards out there continue on business as usual.

And agents do break MLS board covenants all the time. They will do whatever it takes to get their commission. So long as they keep a low profile, they can just violate the MLS board agreement and get away with it. But they also don't mind the anti-competitive MLS because it's a source of high-commission transactions where they are assured their counterparties will "play by the same rules".

Without IP I say we have no free market, and innovation comes to a grinding halt.

"You know, you can always listen to the Tom Clancy audio book while reading the Playboy and at the same time watching CNBC for the next investment idea. "

Would that be on the big screen in your bathroom? No sushi bar in there, too?

I only read magazines in the bathroom. No electronics other than laptops.

I can't wait for LCD paint. Your whole bathroom wall can be a photogallery.

And I thought Peter P was the imaginator of dream bathrooms

Headset,

people's circumstances differ, and their strategy of taking advantage of the housing downfall may differ too. I bought a year before you did, and I was just out of grad school. If I didn't get assistance from family on dp, I would not have had time to save enough dp to take advantage of that bottom. If I graduated 3 years earlier, and I understood the bubble as well as I do today, I would have jumped in EVEN knowing that the price might go down further, because I might just want to get into a particular neighborhood at a semi-bargain price while I could still borrow, and I expected my pay to rapidly increase afterwards.

Therefore, I don't think there is an one-size-fits-all strategy for everyone. Someone may buy before it bottoms, and he knows it, someone may just wait for the perceived bottom. There are many reasons why one can't come up with a dp, and I don't want to speculate on it. If someone doesn't think for whatever circumstances he can come up with enough dp, then getting in just before the bank closes its door is not a bad thing.

Another consideration is the weakening of the dollar. I have more than enough to pay off my mortgage balance, but I choose not to, because I can make higher return on my savings than sinking it into a dollar-denominated loan that will only get cheaper to pay off as dollar tanks. Therefore, if you know what you are doing, acquiring a dollar-denominated loan and locking the rates down is the right thing to do, provided that you have that amount of money to begin with, and you can shift your own money to more lucrative uses. Money will one day get much more expensive, if there's some way that you can lock down the cheap rates of today and profit from money getting expensive in the future, why not?

I don't think one can universally determine if debt is bad (tax shield, arbitrage, dumb people pricing risk badly so that you get a good deal). Debt is a good thing if you know how to take advantage of it. Apart from FBs, there are also people who strategically get into debt as a financial tool to profit, and right now the window for getting ridiculously cheap debt is still open, that is all I am saying.

I only read magazines in the bathroom. No electronics other than laptops.

Probably smart from an electrocution standpoint.

Excellent debate, BTW to all.

You're very welcome. My observation is that almost everyone is remarkably considerate on this board.

Randy H,

Exactly, b/c MLS can provide a "base level" for some very good commissions they tolerate the rules just enough to keep from getting the boot.

And as much as it pains me to admit it, Malcom is correct that NO industry operates efficiently when the least significant player dictates the terms by which the game will be played.

After what's been said today, I doubt I can meaningfully contribute to the debate. However, here's an interesting link:

http://www.ftc.gov/opp/workshops/comprealestate/index.shtm

Click on the "Workshop Transcript" link if interested. It's hefty, but seems like (on cursory pass-through) a very interesting and relevant read.

And now in this group hug, I have to say that you guys have solid points about MLS business practices.

Whether MLS is a monopoly doesn't matter, in this world we are moving to more transparent information. Realtors need to show me apart from MLS data what other service they can provide, and what they can provide won't overlap with other alternatives I have (researching on the internet, advertising on craigslist, attorney, etc.).

If realtors cannot come up with a distinctive raison d'etre, they will become extinct fairly soon, or their commission structure will change drastically.

In both Japan and Hong Kong, after the bust, the realtor's commission structure came down significantly. In Hong Kong, for example, when I was growing up, BOTH buyer and seller used to pay realtors 2-2.5% for the transaction amount. Now, the standard has become 1%, and you can easily negotiate it down to .5%, in a buyer's market, the buyer doesn't need to pay, in the seller's market, the seller doesn't need to pay.