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2174
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 10:24am
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 10:24am
NuttBoxer says
Sure I have. The Muslims who reject violence against non-Muslims are violating the commands of Islam.
NuttBoxer says
The whole book is a relentless screed of hate for non-Muslims, all the way through. That is the context. Within that, there are specific commands to murder non-Muslims.
You're right that the Old Testament has a lot of varying tones. The Koran is not like that at all. It's contempt for non-Muslims from start to finish. "O ye who will not believe, you'll be sorry..." over and over. The Koran is very consistent that way.
You still haven't explained the practicing Muslims who disagree with your violent take on the Koran.
Sure I have. The Muslims who reject violence against non-Muslims are violating the commands of Islam.
NuttBoxer says
Have you properly contextualized the entire book, or are you just reading certain sections?
The whole book is a relentless screed of hate for non-Muslims, all the way through. That is the context. Within that, there are specific commands to murder non-Muslims.
You're right that the Old Testament has a lot of varying tones. The Koran is not like that at all. It's contempt for non-Muslims from start to finish. "O ye who will not believe, you'll be sorry..." over and over. The Koran is very consistent that way.
2175
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 11:04am
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 11:04am
NuttBoxer says
@NuttBoxer
I don't think so. I don't think there has been any case of any Jew or Christian killing one of their own who denounced them in the last few centuries.
The Catholic Church used to burn heretics, but that was in direct violation of the teachings of Jesus.
But it's common in the Islamic world for Muslims to kill a former Muslims. In fact, it's commanded by Islamic law.
radical Muslims killed a fellow Muslim who denounced them. So I'm sure cases like that can be found. Just like they can for Jews, Christians, etc.
@NuttBoxer
I don't think so. I don't think there has been any case of any Jew or Christian killing one of their own who denounced them in the last few centuries.
The Catholic Church used to burn heretics, but that was in direct violation of the teachings of Jesus.
But it's common in the Islamic world for Muslims to kill a former Muslims. In fact, it's commanded by Islamic law.
2176
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 30, 12:01pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 30, 12:01pm
Patrick says
I seriously doubt you've addressed this thus far, but I may have missed it. And I'm pretty sure they would strongly disagree with you, and would likely have passages from the Koran to support their views. But you don't seem to consider that. Sounds pretty fucking arrogant to me. A non-Muslim telling Muslims how to practice their faith. And definitely not open minded at all.
Patrick says
So I'm guessing you mean the whole book except the first 70 some verses? That's how far I read, and I saw a lot of parallels with the Old and New Testament, NT specifically thinking of Christ's words. Didn't see your screed though. I certainly could have picked the only section where you assertion is wrong, but throws a lot of doubt on your argument. What I did see is a passage that said whether a man is Jew, Christian, or Sabean, if they're a true believer, they would enter heaven. Also saw a shit ton of references to the Old Testament, Israel and Moses. That tells me they share a history with the Jews, confirmed by the Old Testament account of Abraham's descendants. Almost like a brother tribe.
Sure I have. The Muslims who reject violence against non-Muslims are violating the commands of Islam.
I seriously doubt you've addressed this thus far, but I may have missed it. And I'm pretty sure they would strongly disagree with you, and would likely have passages from the Koran to support their views. But you don't seem to consider that. Sounds pretty fucking arrogant to me. A non-Muslim telling Muslims how to practice their faith. And definitely not open minded at all.
Patrick says
The whole book is a relentless screed of hate for non-Muslims, all the way through.
So I'm guessing you mean the whole book except the first 70 some verses? That's how far I read, and I saw a lot of parallels with the Old and New Testament, NT specifically thinking of Christ's words. Didn't see your screed though. I certainly could have picked the only section where you assertion is wrong, but throws a lot of doubt on your argument. What I did see is a passage that said whether a man is Jew, Christian, or Sabean, if they're a true believer, they would enter heaven. Also saw a shit ton of references to the Old Testament, Israel and Moses. That tells me they share a history with the Jews, confirmed by the Old Testament account of Abraham's descendants. Almost like a brother tribe.
2177
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 30, 12:17pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 30, 12:17pm
Patrick says
Not a former Muslim, just someone who didn't agree with their radicalized teachings. Another assumption by you.
On the Catholic thing, not even close to the only instance. Let me start with the most famous Jew first, Jesus Christ, murdered by His own people. Only reason Rome had to carry out sentencing was because they were under Rome and didn't haven't authority. Stephen followed pretty quickly, A Jew stoned by Jews. And if you want something more recent, I'd refer you to the King David hotel bombings, carried out by Jews, who killed Jews.
On to Christianity. Let's just stay in the US where examples are fucking rife. Salem witch trials saw a number of Christians hanged for refusing to go along with a witch hunt. Puritans attempted genocide during the War Between the States against a mostly Christian South. And I'm fairly certain England professed to be Christian during the Revolution. And as I've mentioned today, Neo-Cons are often Christian, and have little regard for the Christian communities in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Iran, or Gaza. We fucking do it all the time.
See, I didn't preface the act of murder by a religion against their own with whether it followed teachings or not, because it didn't, in any of the religions. And I would never be so foolish as to assume any follower of any religion strictly adheres to every principle. As I Christian I am well aware our testimony is the number one turn off for none believers.
See, you can find people of any religious persuasion who are willing to commit murder, or condone it. Whether it's a religious reason or not is irrelevant. It only matters if it was done in self-defense.
I don't think there has been any case of any Jew or Christian killing one of their own who denounced them in the last few centuries.
The Catholic Church used to burn heretics, but that was in direct violation of the teachings of Jesus.
But it's common in the Islamic world for Muslims to kill a former Muslims. In fact, it's commanded by Islamic law.
Not a former Muslim, just someone who didn't agree with their radicalized teachings. Another assumption by you.
On the Catholic thing, not even close to the only instance. Let me start with the most famous Jew first, Jesus Christ, murdered by His own people. Only reason Rome had to carry out sentencing was because they were under Rome and didn't haven't authority. Stephen followed pretty quickly, A Jew stoned by Jews. And if you want something more recent, I'd refer you to the King David hotel bombings, carried out by Jews, who killed Jews.
On to Christianity. Let's just stay in the US where examples are fucking rife. Salem witch trials saw a number of Christians hanged for refusing to go along with a witch hunt. Puritans attempted genocide during the War Between the States against a mostly Christian South. And I'm fairly certain England professed to be Christian during the Revolution. And as I've mentioned today, Neo-Cons are often Christian, and have little regard for the Christian communities in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Iran, or Gaza. We fucking do it all the time.
See, I didn't preface the act of murder by a religion against their own with whether it followed teachings or not, because it didn't, in any of the religions. And I would never be so foolish as to assume any follower of any religion strictly adheres to every principle. As I Christian I am well aware our testimony is the number one turn off for none believers.
See, you can find people of any religious persuasion who are willing to commit murder, or condone it. Whether it's a religious reason or not is irrelevant. It only matters if it was done in self-defense.
2178
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 30, 12:24pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 30, 12:24pm
So I went to a Christian college, and took a class on World Religions. We covered the main ones, including Islam. What I remember is that it's the same as Catholicism or any works based religion. As long as you do your sacraments, or whatever they're called, you go to heaven. Doesn't matter how much bad shit you do, as long as you do the sacraments. That was the professor's take.
No Jihad, no kill all infidels. And I am painfully aware of the numerous acts of violence carried out by the church in the name of God. Just like I'm sure Muslim's are aware of the same carried out in the name of Allah. I denounce it when I heard it in my church(I emailed them about their call to pray for only Israel), and I'm sure Muslims do the same in their temples. At least the ones I've personally known and read about. And according to the first 70 verses of the Koran, seems spot on to me...
No Jihad, no kill all infidels. And I am painfully aware of the numerous acts of violence carried out by the church in the name of God. Just like I'm sure Muslim's are aware of the same carried out in the name of Allah. I denounce it when I heard it in my church(I emailed them about their call to pray for only Israel), and I'm sure Muslims do the same in their temples. At least the ones I've personally known and read about. And according to the first 70 verses of the Koran, seems spot on to me...
2179
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 12:30pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 12:30pm
NuttBoxer says
Please read the original post. It documents the essence of the Koran, over and over.
Note that the "peaceful verses" were written before Islam got political power, and the verses after that time are not at all peaceful.
In fact, Muslims are explicitly instructed that the peaceful verses are obsolete and are to be ignored when Islam has power. This has been documented in this very thread:
https://patrick.net/post/511/2007-09-11-islam-and-violence?start=2059#comment-2000850
NuttBoxer says
Yes, you have to reach centuries into the past to find examples of Christians violating Christian teaching like that.
But Muslims murder non-Muslims continuously across the globe, as well as Muslims who try to leave Islam, and this does not violate Islam at all, but in fact is explicitly commanded by Islam. Again, see original post.
No other religion creates such a stream of mayhem and death as a result of its followers literally following the teaching of that religion:
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
NuttBoxer says
That's sounds pretty personal to me, not about the topic.
And I'm pretty sure they would strongly disagree with you, and would likely have passages from the Koran to support their views. But you don't seem to consider that.
Please read the original post. It documents the essence of the Koran, over and over.
Note that the "peaceful verses" were written before Islam got political power, and the verses after that time are not at all peaceful.
In fact, Muslims are explicitly instructed that the peaceful verses are obsolete and are to be ignored when Islam has power. This has been documented in this very thread:
https://patrick.net/post/511/2007-09-11-islam-and-violence?start=2059#comment-2000850
NuttBoxer says
Salem witch trials
Yes, you have to reach centuries into the past to find examples of Christians violating Christian teaching like that.
But Muslims murder non-Muslims continuously across the globe, as well as Muslims who try to leave Islam, and this does not violate Islam at all, but in fact is explicitly commanded by Islam. Again, see original post.
No other religion creates such a stream of mayhem and death as a result of its followers literally following the teaching of that religion:
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
NuttBoxer says
Sounds pretty fucking arrogant to me.
That's sounds pretty personal to me, not about the topic.
2180
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 12:45pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 12:45pm
NuttBoxer says
With respect to rituals, sure, Islam and Catholicism are similar.
But Jesus never killed anyone, nor instructed his followers to kill anyone. Christians who kill in the name of Christianity are violating their own religion.
Mohammed killed a lot of people, and instructed his followers to do the same. Muslims who kill in the name of Islam are being good Muslims.
That part is very, very different.
So I went to a Christian college, and took a class on World Religions. We covered the main ones, including Islam. What I remember is that it's the same as Catholicism or any works based religion. As long as you do your sacraments, or whatever they're called, you go to heaven.
With respect to rituals, sure, Islam and Catholicism are similar.
But Jesus never killed anyone, nor instructed his followers to kill anyone. Christians who kill in the name of Christianity are violating their own religion.
Mohammed killed a lot of people, and instructed his followers to do the same. Muslims who kill in the name of Islam are being good Muslims.
That part is very, very different.
2181
gabbar
2023 Oct 30, 1:01pm
gabbar
2023 Oct 30, 1:01pm
Patrick says
Its a honor for Muslims, the slaves of Allah (the merciful of course, pieces be upon him ) to kill non-Muslims. Is there any other religion that has this kind of pure pig shit?
Muslims who kill in the name of Islam are being good Muslims.
Its a honor for Muslims, the slaves of Allah (the merciful of course, pieces be upon him ) to kill non-Muslims. Is there any other religion that has this kind of pure pig shit?
2183
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 1:28pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 1:28pm
gabbar says
One thing I did not understand at first was that a lot of peasants converted to Islam because Muslims were offering lower tax rates for new Muslim converts than the Byzantine Empire was already charging for Christians. The Byzantine Empire kind of fucked itself there, by over-taxing its people and creating a motive for them to defect.
The result in the longer term was that wealthier Christians and Jews could afford to pay the jizya and remain Christian or Jewish under Muslim rule, but the poor could not afford the jizya, and so were faced with conversion or death.
And the result of that was that the remaining Christian and Jewish minorities tended to be wealthier than Muslims, so the poor Muslims resented them and were eager to kill them and take their possessions and land, which happened off and on right up into the Armenian Genocide.
This is how this pieceful ideology spread.
One thing I did not understand at first was that a lot of peasants converted to Islam because Muslims were offering lower tax rates for new Muslim converts than the Byzantine Empire was already charging for Christians. The Byzantine Empire kind of fucked itself there, by over-taxing its people and creating a motive for them to defect.
The result in the longer term was that wealthier Christians and Jews could afford to pay the jizya and remain Christian or Jewish under Muslim rule, but the poor could not afford the jizya, and so were faced with conversion or death.
And the result of that was that the remaining Christian and Jewish minorities tended to be wealthier than Muslims, so the poor Muslims resented them and were eager to kill them and take their possessions and land, which happened off and on right up into the Armenian Genocide.
2184
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 1:47pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 1:47pm
https://twitter.com/lporiginalg/status/1718870814765072684
@lporiginalg
In the UK if Muslims assault you for speaking facts the police will arrest you.
2185
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 1:58pm
gabbar says
Didn't Netanyahu just quote the paragaphs from Jewish bible (Samuels specifically, IIRC) about the merciful Jewish God commanding the slaughtering of all men, women, children and livestock (camels, asses/donkeys, etc.)? IIRC, the fall of Jericho was similar. Saul, the predecessor of King David, was actually punished by God for having mercy and not killing everyone during conquest (IIRC, he only spared some farm animals, not even any women or children).
To be honest, IMHO, Christianity was Judaism marketed to non-Jews of Roman Empire; then Islam was Judaism marketed to sand-people when Byzantine and Sassanids locked in decades long war blocking the usual trade routes between Byzantine and the far east, so new trade routes had to be found both north (through Khazaria and the steppes instead of the usual Ferghana Valley) and south (along the red sea and Arabian sea, hence Islam teachings on commercial trust).
The institutional bloodiness of Islam and Crusades all came from Judaism. If you read carefully between the lines, you'd realize that the family of Jacob (the patriarch) were not really sheep herders but a parable for farming human, probably reference to the Egyptian Pharoahs, as there is a theory that Moses was the Pharoah Akenarten.
Patrick says
Muslims who kill in the name of Islam are being good Muslims.
Its a honor for Muslims, the slaves of Allah (the merciful of course, pieces be upon him ) to kill non-Muslims. Is there any other religion that has this kind of pure pig shit?
Didn't Netanyahu just quote the paragaphs from Jewish bible (Samuels specifically, IIRC) about the merciful Jewish God commanding the slaughtering of all men, women, children and livestock (camels, asses/donkeys, etc.)? IIRC, the fall of Jericho was similar. Saul, the predecessor of King David, was actually punished by God for having mercy and not killing everyone during conquest (IIRC, he only spared some farm animals, not even any women or children).
To be honest, IMHO, Christianity was Judaism marketed to non-Jews of Roman Empire; then Islam was Judaism marketed to sand-people when Byzantine and Sassanids locked in decades long war blocking the usual trade routes between Byzantine and the far east, so new trade routes had to be found both north (through Khazaria and the steppes instead of the usual Ferghana Valley) and south (along the red sea and Arabian sea, hence Islam teachings on commercial trust).
The institutional bloodiness of Islam and Crusades all came from Judaism. If you read carefully between the lines, you'd realize that the family of Jacob (the patriarch) were not really sheep herders but a parable for farming human, probably reference to the Egyptian Pharoahs, as there is a theory that Moses was the Pharoah Akenarten.
2186
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 2:24pm
The irony is that, back in 8th century, allowing paying a tax instead of being killed was the state of the art on religious freedom; allowing conversion and pay lower tax was even more open-minded than usual. That's why Islam spread as quickly as it did. In comparison, Jewish priests commanded their warriors to kill all men, women, children and all live-stock in conquered area around 1300BC; Romans (Caesar) deliberately caused wars to mass kill and loot Helvetics, Gauls and Belgics around 70BC; Crusaders (both the ones sent to the Holyland, and Northern Crusade to Poland and Lithuania) in the 10th through 14th century went on murders for profit and deliberately killed entire tribes already converted to Christianity pretending victims' conversions were either incomplete or fake.
Not saying what Muslims do today (especially fundamentalists after 1960's) is admirable, but what Muslims did in the 8th century was relatively benign and open-minded by the standards of their time (allowing the conquered to live by paying tax; and lower tax if conversion). What's more: even in the first 60% of 20th century, Muslim societies were quite open, with girls dressed in short skirts all way into the 1970's. IMHO, violent post-modern Muslim fundamentalists are creations of the globalist banksters as a tool to disrupt modern western society, just like those MKUltra mass shooters.
Not saying what Muslims do today (especially fundamentalists after 1960's) is admirable, but what Muslims did in the 8th century was relatively benign and open-minded by the standards of their time (allowing the conquered to live by paying tax; and lower tax if conversion). What's more: even in the first 60% of 20th century, Muslim societies were quite open, with girls dressed in short skirts all way into the 1970's. IMHO, violent post-modern Muslim fundamentalists are creations of the globalist banksters as a tool to disrupt modern western society, just like those MKUltra mass shooters.
2187
RWSGFY
2023 Oct 30, 2:44pm
RWSGFY
2023 Oct 30, 2:44pm
Loving all the Nazi apologists who are falling over themselves to say that having a Kristalnacht in one very locked-down and heavily policed country where you can't go out with an anti-war placard but Jews are literally being chased around an airfield by the angry mob is TOTALLY NOT NAZI.
Now back to the loony tunes about KHAZARIAN MAFIA.
Now back to the loony tunes about KHAZARIAN MAFIA.
2188
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 2:55pm
RWSGFY says
So you are saying Israel is a Nazi country because some Muslims chased Jews down for a few hours in southern Israel on October 7th? While Zionists are indeed Nazis (both on Nationalism+Socialism, and their eventual goal of killing Jews in Israel to harvest their bank account balances just like the historical German Nazis did to European Jews), I wouldn't say Israel is a Nazi country per se, simply because most Israelis are not aware of the real goal of Zionism.
Loving all the Nazi apologists who are falling over themselves to say that having a Kristalnacht in one very locked-down and heavily policed country where you can't go out with an anti-war placard but Jews are literally being chased around an airfield by the angry mob is TOTALLY NOT NAZI.
So you are saying Israel is a Nazi country because some Muslims chased Jews down for a few hours in southern Israel on October 7th? While Zionists are indeed Nazis (both on Nationalism+Socialism, and their eventual goal of killing Jews in Israel to harvest their bank account balances just like the historical German Nazis did to European Jews), I wouldn't say Israel is a Nazi country per se, simply because most Israelis are not aware of the real goal of Zionism.
2189
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 2:56pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 2:56pm
Reality says
Jesus' teachings were not all that Jewish, but basically I agree. It first spread among the Greeks, and whether they had to get circumcised as a major problem. The lifting of various Jewish rules like circumcision and the prohibition on pork made Christianity more acceptable, and more separate from Judaism.
Reality says
Yes, Judaism and Islam are really very similar. Much more so than Judaism and Christianity, in spite of the Christians' inclusion of the "Old Testament".
Reality says
I was kind of shocked when I saw that he did that. It's the very worst bit of Judaism, requiring that slaughter of innocent people who lived in the land before them.
Still, it's not as bad as Islam, which considers the whole world as its property instead of taking over just one country. And I've read that at first, Muslims did slaughter all who refused to convert, and it was only a bit later that they got the bright idea of taxing instead of killing. Good revenue source.
IMHO, Christianity was Judaism marketed to non-Jews of Roman Empire
Jesus' teachings were not all that Jewish, but basically I agree. It first spread among the Greeks, and whether they had to get circumcised as a major problem. The lifting of various Jewish rules like circumcision and the prohibition on pork made Christianity more acceptable, and more separate from Judaism.
Reality says
Islam was Judaism marketed to sand-people
Yes, Judaism and Islam are really very similar. Much more so than Judaism and Christianity, in spite of the Christians' inclusion of the "Old Testament".
Reality says
Didn't Netanyahu just quote the paragaphs from Jewish bible (Samuels specifically, IIRC) about the merciful Jewish God commanding the slaughtering of all men, women, children and livestock (camels, asses/donkeys, etc.)?
I was kind of shocked when I saw that he did that. It's the very worst bit of Judaism, requiring that slaughter of innocent people who lived in the land before them.
Still, it's not as bad as Islam, which considers the whole world as its property instead of taking over just one country. And I've read that at first, Muslims did slaughter all who refused to convert, and it was only a bit later that they got the bright idea of taxing instead of killing. Good revenue source.
2190
RWSGFY
2023 Oct 30, 3:06pm
RWSGFY
2023 Oct 30, 3:06pm
Reality says
No, that was an obvious cross-border invasion by an armed force of a different government, which bears all the marks of a Nazi regime: declared the desire to kill and displace Jews for being Jews, denies the right for Jews to have a Jewish state and acts upon these declarations, has strong Socialist element to their day-to-day operations and they all have small dicks.
See? Hamas checks all Nazi boxes. Every. Single. One.
RWSGFY says
Loving all the Nazi apologists who are falling over themselves to say that having a Kristalnacht in one very locked-down and heavily policed country where you can't go out with an anti-war placard but Jews are literally being chased around an airfield by the angry mob is TOTALLY NOT NAZI.
So you are saying Israel is a Nazi country because some Muslims chased Jews down for a few hours in southern Israel on October 7th?
No, that was an obvious cross-border invasion by an armed force of a different government, which bears all the marks of a Nazi regime: declared the desire to kill and displace Jews for being Jews, denies the right for Jews to have a Jewish state and acts upon these declarations, has strong Socialist element to their day-to-day operations and they all have small dicks.
See? Hamas checks all Nazi boxes. Every. Single. One.
2191
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 3:33pm
RWSGFY says
Hamas was founded by Mossad, and gets most of its funding nowadays from Qatar, a bankster outpost in a sea of potential hostiles (both Iran and Saudi can invade Qatar and destroy bank books there anytime thereby enabling Qatar banks to welch on depositors).
As for dick size, I'm not sure if you want to compare Jewish dick size vs. Arab dick size. Statistically, r-selected species/breeds tend to have bigger dicks than k-selected species/breeds; e.g. horses/herbivores have much bigger dicks than lions/carnivores do.
Both Hamas and Zionists indeed have strong elements of Nationalism and Socialism, and share another trait with the original Nazis: they were/are all tools set up by banksters to harvest bank accounts through killing account holders. Jews and gays just happen to be some of the most prolific savers / wealth-accumulators (gay men don't have to raise children and don't have to support spend-thrift wives).
No, that was an obvious cross-border invasion by an armed force of a different government, which bears all the marks of a Nazi regime: declared the desire to kill and displace Jews for being Jews, denies the right for Jews to have a Jewish state and acts upon these declarations, has strong Socialist element to their day-to-day operations and they all have small dicks.
See? Hamas checks all Nazi boxes. Every. Single. One.
Hamas was founded by Mossad, and gets most of its funding nowadays from Qatar, a bankster outpost in a sea of potential hostiles (both Iran and Saudi can invade Qatar and destroy bank books there anytime thereby enabling Qatar banks to welch on depositors).
As for dick size, I'm not sure if you want to compare Jewish dick size vs. Arab dick size. Statistically, r-selected species/breeds tend to have bigger dicks than k-selected species/breeds; e.g. horses/herbivores have much bigger dicks than lions/carnivores do.
Both Hamas and Zionists indeed have strong elements of Nationalism and Socialism, and share another trait with the original Nazis: they were/are all tools set up by banksters to harvest bank accounts through killing account holders. Jews and gays just happen to be some of the most prolific savers / wealth-accumulators (gay men don't have to raise children and don't have to support spend-thrift wives).
2192
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 3:38pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 3:38pm
Reality says
@Reality Where did you find this idea? I find it extremely unlikely.
While Zionists are indeed Nazis (both on Nationalism+Socialism, and their eventual goal of killing Jews in Israel to harvest their bank account balances
@Reality Where did you find this idea? I find it extremely unlikely.
2193
Blue
2023 Oct 30, 3:41pm
Patrick says
That means Sharia law is already in place in reality!
In the UK if Muslims assault you for speaking facts the police will arrest you.
That means Sharia law is already in place in reality!
2194
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 4:04pm
Patrick says
Agree. When I heard Netanyahu saying that, I was even more convinced that this is a trap set up to destroy Israeli Jews in the not too distant future. There was absolutely no need for him to say that -- it's not as if the IDF were full of ultra orthodox Jews (who are exempt from draft in Israel) -- except to piss off worldwide public. Escalating the conflict to an extermination war, pitting 3% Semites (Jews) against 97% Semites (Arabs) before even counting non-Arab Muslims is fool-hardy! Especially given the strict enforcement of mRNA toxin shots on all Israelis earlier . . . this is really looking like the situation shortly before the Battle of Hattin: the public in the Crusader Kingdom understood their survival depended on getting on peacefully with their local neighboring countries, whereas the Knight Templars (the banksters) insisted on raiding neighboring countries and slaughtering captured civilians one atrocity after another, eventually leading to a major war that would wipe the Crusader Kingdom off the map and thereby destroy bank accounting books, rendering a viable excuse not to pay depositors back.
IMHO, the most important contribution Judaism-Christianity-Islam brought to the world is the idea that there is a higher power than the secular ruler, thereby providing check-and-balance-of-power in a society (atheistic states have a high tendency towards personality cult). However, a theocracy under any religion would once again remove the check-and-balance. Both Christianity and Islam are universal religions, and Christianity developed religious tolerance/freedom after the two schisms (and much bloodshed). Islam had one schism, and historically had a tendency to splinter into multiple separate states despite the religious idea of "Caliphate" (not even Abbasids or Ottoman at their peaks ruled the entire Muslim world). Today, the greatest risk of global theocracy is actually whatever new religion cooked up by WEF, enforced by a network of bought-and-paid-for politicians. I don't know how much of a role Judaism plays in this network with its core idea of "Chosen People" (easily expanding to superintendents doing God's work, a very Narcissistic way of looking at the world); the idea certainly sets up a lot of people to be useful idiots, and ultimately to their own destruction. The original Nazi officers too thought of themselves as super-human when shoving what they considered their lessers onto cattle cars; ultimately those Nazi officers too were shot/machine-gunned or hanged so that their bank accounts too got recycled (just like those Hamas idiots that took the pay to carry out the raiding).
I was kind of shocked when I saw that he did that. It's the very worst bit of Judaism, requiring that slaughter of innocent people who lived in the land before them.
Agree. When I heard Netanyahu saying that, I was even more convinced that this is a trap set up to destroy Israeli Jews in the not too distant future. There was absolutely no need for him to say that -- it's not as if the IDF were full of ultra orthodox Jews (who are exempt from draft in Israel) -- except to piss off worldwide public. Escalating the conflict to an extermination war, pitting 3% Semites (Jews) against 97% Semites (Arabs) before even counting non-Arab Muslims is fool-hardy! Especially given the strict enforcement of mRNA toxin shots on all Israelis earlier . . . this is really looking like the situation shortly before the Battle of Hattin: the public in the Crusader Kingdom understood their survival depended on getting on peacefully with their local neighboring countries, whereas the Knight Templars (the banksters) insisted on raiding neighboring countries and slaughtering captured civilians one atrocity after another, eventually leading to a major war that would wipe the Crusader Kingdom off the map and thereby destroy bank accounting books, rendering a viable excuse not to pay depositors back.
Still, it's not as bad as Islam, which considers the whole world as its property instead of taking over just one country. And I've read that at first, Muslims did slaughter all who refused to convert, and it was only a bit later that they got the bright idea of taxing instead of killing. Good revenue source.
IMHO, the most important contribution Judaism-Christianity-Islam brought to the world is the idea that there is a higher power than the secular ruler, thereby providing check-and-balance-of-power in a society (atheistic states have a high tendency towards personality cult). However, a theocracy under any religion would once again remove the check-and-balance. Both Christianity and Islam are universal religions, and Christianity developed religious tolerance/freedom after the two schisms (and much bloodshed). Islam had one schism, and historically had a tendency to splinter into multiple separate states despite the religious idea of "Caliphate" (not even Abbasids or Ottoman at their peaks ruled the entire Muslim world). Today, the greatest risk of global theocracy is actually whatever new religion cooked up by WEF, enforced by a network of bought-and-paid-for politicians. I don't know how much of a role Judaism plays in this network with its core idea of "Chosen People" (easily expanding to superintendents doing God's work, a very Narcissistic way of looking at the world); the idea certainly sets up a lot of people to be useful idiots, and ultimately to their own destruction. The original Nazi officers too thought of themselves as super-human when shoving what they considered their lessers onto cattle cars; ultimately those Nazi officers too were shot/machine-gunned or hanged so that their bank accounts too got recycled (just like those Hamas idiots that took the pay to carry out the raiding).
2195
stereotomy
2023 Oct 30, 4:15pm
stereotomy
2023 Oct 30, 4:15pm
Reality says
I find it curious how people can judge the current barbarism of a culture by saying how relatively enlightened the culture was 1000 years ago. Yes, the muslims were probably more progressive 1000 years ago, but what about now? Christians were at war with each other beginning 700 years ago. Do the protestants carry out killings against the catholics en mass today like the islamists? (Yes I don't capitalize religion names, so burn me at the stake).
The irony is that, back in 8th century, allowing paying a tax instead of being killed was the state of the art on religious freedom; allowing conversion and pay lower tax was even more open-minded than usual. That's why Islam spread as quickly as it did. In comparison, Jewish priests commanded their warriors to kill all men, women, children and all live-stock in conquered area around 1300BC; Romans (Caesar) deliberately caused wars to mass kill and loot Helvetics, Gauls and Belgics around 70BC; Crusaders (both the ones sent to the Holyland, and Northern Crusade to Poland and Lithuania) in the 10th through 14th century went on murders for profit and deliberately killed entire tribes already converted to Christianity pretending victims' conversions were either incomplete or fake.
Not saying what Muslims do today (especially fundamentalists after 1960's) is admirable, but what Muslims did in the 8th century was relatively benign and open-minded by the standards of their time (allowing the conquered to live by paying tax; and lower tax if conversion). What's more: even in the first 60% of 20th century, Muslim societies were quite open, with girls dressed in short skirts all way into the 1970's. IMHO, violent post-modern Muslim fundamentalists are creations of the globalist banksters as a tool to disrupt modern western society, just like those MKUltra mass shooters.
I find it curious how people can judge the current barbarism of a culture by saying how relatively enlightened the culture was 1000 years ago. Yes, the muslims were probably more progressive 1000 years ago, but what about now? Christians were at war with each other beginning 700 years ago. Do the protestants carry out killings against the catholics en mass today like the islamists? (Yes I don't capitalize religion names, so burn me at the stake).
2196
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 4:29pm
Patrick says
Zionism is a re-run of the Crusader Kingdom: luring European rejects (younger brothers, non-heirs in princely families) to the distant middle-east to set up an isolated island in a sea of potentially hostile population. The military superiority also brings an air of almost invincibility, thereby attracting local deposits to the bank in addition to donations from the West and personal wealth brought by opportunists arriving to take advantage of superior social privileges. The original Crusader Kingdom occupied Jerusalem for 88 years before deliberately losing it, so that the bank (of Knight Templar, whose brothers only counted 10% as fighting knights, while the other 90% of KT brothers were money managers) no longer had to pay back depositors. Israel has been in existence for 75 years. That's 75 years of serving a population that has average savings rate around 30% of their annual income; i.e. there is an accumulated liability that can be 20x GDP on the books of the bank, a sum that the bank can not hope to pay back.
BTW, concurrent to the founding of Israel in 1948, there was the introduction of Apartheid laws in South Africa (which to many people's surprise today had not been an apartheid state before 1948; modern students may well wonder why would they introduce such racist laws in a British Dominion 3 years after defeating Nazi Germany). The privileges attracted white-superemists to migrate there. Being k-selected population, they too had very high savings rate (around 30-50% of their annual income). By the time of 1980's, the harvest season arrived, Bill Gates' mother, a banker and board member of the Federal Reserve, lobbed one of the first shells to destroy South African whites as a privileged social class, eventually leading to what we see today, a genocidal war against whites in South Africa.
Looking through history of the last 150 years, the theory can also explain why De Gaulle destroyed the French colonists in North Africa (harvesting their bank accounts after giving them privilege grazing on the local unbankable population for decades), and why the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 (deliberately riling the Hindus and Muslims alike into mass murdering entire families of white colonists, men, women and children, many thousands). As well as why banksters financed communist revolutions in Russia and China: their middle class and upper-middle class had enormous account balances in the banks, so had to be killed.
Reality says
While Zionists are indeed Nazis (both on Nationalism+Socialism, and their eventual goal of killing Jews in Israel to harvest their bank account balances
Reality Where did you find this idea? I find it extremely unlikely.
Zionism is a re-run of the Crusader Kingdom: luring European rejects (younger brothers, non-heirs in princely families) to the distant middle-east to set up an isolated island in a sea of potentially hostile population. The military superiority also brings an air of almost invincibility, thereby attracting local deposits to the bank in addition to donations from the West and personal wealth brought by opportunists arriving to take advantage of superior social privileges. The original Crusader Kingdom occupied Jerusalem for 88 years before deliberately losing it, so that the bank (of Knight Templar, whose brothers only counted 10% as fighting knights, while the other 90% of KT brothers were money managers) no longer had to pay back depositors. Israel has been in existence for 75 years. That's 75 years of serving a population that has average savings rate around 30% of their annual income; i.e. there is an accumulated liability that can be 20x GDP on the books of the bank, a sum that the bank can not hope to pay back.
BTW, concurrent to the founding of Israel in 1948, there was the introduction of Apartheid laws in South Africa (which to many people's surprise today had not been an apartheid state before 1948; modern students may well wonder why would they introduce such racist laws in a British Dominion 3 years after defeating Nazi Germany). The privileges attracted white-superemists to migrate there. Being k-selected population, they too had very high savings rate (around 30-50% of their annual income). By the time of 1980's, the harvest season arrived, Bill Gates' mother, a banker and board member of the Federal Reserve, lobbed one of the first shells to destroy South African whites as a privileged social class, eventually leading to what we see today, a genocidal war against whites in South Africa.
Looking through history of the last 150 years, the theory can also explain why De Gaulle destroyed the French colonists in North Africa (harvesting their bank accounts after giving them privilege grazing on the local unbankable population for decades), and why the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 (deliberately riling the Hindus and Muslims alike into mass murdering entire families of white colonists, men, women and children, many thousands). As well as why banksters financed communist revolutions in Russia and China: their middle class and upper-middle class had enormous account balances in the banks, so had to be killed.
2197
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 4:33pm
stereotomy says
My comment was in reply to a cartoon illustrating how Muslims conducted their business 1350 years ago. Comment #2182
I find it curious how people can judge the current barbarism of a culture by saying how relatively enlightened the culture was 1000 years ago. Yes, the muslims were probably more progressive 1000 years ago, but what about now? Christians were at war with each other beginning 700 years ago. Do the protestants carry out killings against the catholics en mass today like the islamists? (Yes I don't capitalize religion names, so burn me at the stake).
My comment was in reply to a cartoon illustrating how Muslims conducted their business 1350 years ago. Comment #2182
2198
socal2
2023 Oct 30, 4:35pm
Reality says
Quite the euphemism you used there "chased Jews down for a few hours"!
In Reality's world, murdering, raping, burning, torturing, decapitating and kidnapping over 1,400 Jews (all on camera!) up close and personal is just something that happened one afternoon. Kind of like a Sunday at the park - right?
Islamist/Russian apologist Jew haters are becoming even more absurd and grotesque with their vile excuses and conspiracies.
So you are saying Israel is a Nazi country because some Muslims chased Jews down for a few hours in southern Israel on October 7th?
Quite the euphemism you used there "chased Jews down for a few hours"!
In Reality's world, murdering, raping, burning, torturing, decapitating and kidnapping over 1,400 Jews (all on camera!) up close and personal is just something that happened one afternoon. Kind of like a Sunday at the park - right?
Islamist/Russian apologist Jew haters are becoming even more absurd and grotesque with their vile excuses and conspiracies.
2199
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 4:50pm
socal2 says
Please read the context of that comment. The comment I was replying to claimed Russia allowed Muslims "literally chased Jews down for hours" in Dagestan airport and therefore Russia was a Nazi state. I copied the phrase to indicate the same thing happened in Israel, at the least! I actually agree with you that what happened to Jews in Israel was far worse than what happened to Jews/airline-passengers on that flight in Dagestan (were they even Jews? or just some hapless non-Jewish passengers taking a flight from Israel to come home after vacationing in Israel?). Do you want to draw the conclusion that Israel is even more Nazi than Russia is?
BTW, calling me a Jew-hater is both mistaken and personal. I don't hate Jews at all. I think many Jews (in Israel) are being set up like in an insider-scam similar to the Bernie Madoff scam and many historical false messiah episodes . . . and this time is not just their money at risk but their lives! If you call someone warning the coming of a new Holocaust a Jew-hater, you may want to check in the mirror and see if you are a Jew-hating Holocaust-denier.
Reality says
So you are saying Israel is a Nazi country because some Muslims chased Jews down for a few hours in southern Israel on October 7th?
Quite the euphemism you used there "chased Jews down for a few hours"!
In Reality's world, murdering, raping, burning, torturing, decapitating and kidnapping over 1,400 Jews (all on camera!) up close and personal is just something that happened one afternoon. Kind of like a Sunday at the park - right?
Islamist/Russian apologist Jew haters are becoming even more absurd and grotesque with their vile excuses and conspiracies.
Please read the context of that comment. The comment I was replying to claimed Russia allowed Muslims "literally chased Jews down for hours" in Dagestan airport and therefore Russia was a Nazi state. I copied the phrase to indicate the same thing happened in Israel, at the least! I actually agree with you that what happened to Jews in Israel was far worse than what happened to Jews/airline-passengers on that flight in Dagestan (were they even Jews? or just some hapless non-Jewish passengers taking a flight from Israel to come home after vacationing in Israel?). Do you want to draw the conclusion that Israel is even more Nazi than Russia is?
BTW, calling me a Jew-hater is both mistaken and personal. I don't hate Jews at all. I think many Jews (in Israel) are being set up like in an insider-scam similar to the Bernie Madoff scam and many historical false messiah episodes . . . and this time is not just their money at risk but their lives! If you call someone warning the coming of a new Holocaust a Jew-hater, you may want to check in the mirror and see if you are a Jew-hating Holocaust-denier.
2200
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 6:33pm
Patrick
2023 Oct 30, 6:33pm
Reality says
So it's best that the banks don't owe you too much, because then they have a motive to bump you off. Kill your creditor to dissolve your debt.
Though aren't there heirs who would claim the balances?
I read a good theory of why the Jews keep getting killed throughout history. Eventually everyone ends up owing the Jews money. The easy solution is to kill your creditor.
As well as why banksters financed communist revolutions in Russia and China: their middle class and upper-middle class had enormous account balances in the banks, so had to be killed.
So it's best that the banks don't owe you too much, because then they have a motive to bump you off. Kill your creditor to dissolve your debt.
Though aren't there heirs who would claim the balances?
I read a good theory of why the Jews keep getting killed throughout history. Eventually everyone ends up owing the Jews money. The easy solution is to kill your creditor.
2201
Reality
2023 Oct 30, 6:57pm
Patrick says
Correct. Killing Jewish creditors is a big part of the motivation behind many pogroms. On top of that, we literally have historical records that during the French Revolution, many Frenchmen made up false accusations against their neighbors in order to get the latter killed because they owed their neighbors money.
Hamilton literally said around the time of the founding of the US that it's better for the US to owe money than having positive savings. Hamilton was an agent of the banksters. At the time, the US was somewhat of a "Zion": beacon on top of a hill, some such, the early expansion phase of a new cycle of capital flow.
Only if the heirs know. Banksters bought "Banking Secrecy Laws" precisely to prevent the heirs from getting answers from the bank regarding what other accounts the deceases had. Most married couples are not happy with each other after a few years, so usually have accounts hidden from each other; kids, nephews/nieces would get even less disclosure.
More importantly, when banksters organize massive wars, revolutions, Holocaust/pogrom, entire families get killed, so there would be no heir left to withdraw money from bank or even knowing where accounts are. That's why banksters organize massive wars every 70-100 years. What gate-kept authors call generational-dynamics / "4th turning" / massive-war cycles are actually bankster ponzi scam cycles.
In the long financial/economic cycle, the primary source of profit for banks is from abandoned accounts! (All other activities may well add up to net negative after paying salaries, which was likely why Bernie Madoff, who wrote most securities laws and regulations we know today as he was the chairman of the largest stock exchange in the world, came to the conclusion that not hiring anyone to invest a penny in his multi-billion dollar fund was actually more cost-effective) That's why banking was non-existent in Europe after the fall of Western Roman Empire until some 500 years later getting restarted by the Knight Templars, who in even mainstream history are credited with restarting banking in Europe after the fall of WRE. Obviously, their primary source of profit (more precisely: asset - active liability) are abandoned accounts from clients dying on the perilous journeys to and from Jerusalem.
BTW, this theory also explains why dictators like Saddam, Qaddafi, Noriega, etc., previously recruited and/or installed by Western intelligence, later get harvested after a few decades.
I read a good theory of why the Jews keep getting killed throughout history. Eventually everyone ends up owing the Jews money. The easy solution is to kill your creditor.
Correct. Killing Jewish creditors is a big part of the motivation behind many pogroms. On top of that, we literally have historical records that during the French Revolution, many Frenchmen made up false accusations against their neighbors in order to get the latter killed because they owed their neighbors money.
So it's best that the banks don't owe you too much, because then they have a motive to bump you off. Kill your creditor to dissolve your debt.
Hamilton literally said around the time of the founding of the US that it's better for the US to owe money than having positive savings. Hamilton was an agent of the banksters. At the time, the US was somewhat of a "Zion": beacon on top of a hill, some such, the early expansion phase of a new cycle of capital flow.
Though aren't there heirs who would claim the balances?
Only if the heirs know. Banksters bought "Banking Secrecy Laws" precisely to prevent the heirs from getting answers from the bank regarding what other accounts the deceases had. Most married couples are not happy with each other after a few years, so usually have accounts hidden from each other; kids, nephews/nieces would get even less disclosure.
More importantly, when banksters organize massive wars, revolutions, Holocaust/pogrom, entire families get killed, so there would be no heir left to withdraw money from bank or even knowing where accounts are. That's why banksters organize massive wars every 70-100 years. What gate-kept authors call generational-dynamics / "4th turning" / massive-war cycles are actually bankster ponzi scam cycles.
In the long financial/economic cycle, the primary source of profit for banks is from abandoned accounts! (All other activities may well add up to net negative after paying salaries, which was likely why Bernie Madoff, who wrote most securities laws and regulations we know today as he was the chairman of the largest stock exchange in the world, came to the conclusion that not hiring anyone to invest a penny in his multi-billion dollar fund was actually more cost-effective) That's why banking was non-existent in Europe after the fall of Western Roman Empire until some 500 years later getting restarted by the Knight Templars, who in even mainstream history are credited with restarting banking in Europe after the fall of WRE. Obviously, their primary source of profit (more precisely: asset - active liability) are abandoned accounts from clients dying on the perilous journeys to and from Jerusalem.
BTW, this theory also explains why dictators like Saddam, Qaddafi, Noriega, etc., previously recruited and/or installed by Western intelligence, later get harvested after a few decades.
2203
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 31, 9:01am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Oct 31, 9:01am
Patrick says
Here's a quote from the guy who made that site you pulled this from:
"I find the word 'Muslim' very derogatory and insulting. It is synonymous to stupid, barbarian, thug, arrogant, brain dead, zombie, hooligan, goon, shameless, savage and many other ignoble things. I don't know whether this most disgusting word elicits the same meanings in you or not. So when I want to show my despise [sic] of someone I call him 'Muslim'. But because Muslims are stupid, they don't know all these things and they are proud of this name. This is a win/win situation because I insult them and they are happy and thank me for it. Isn't that smart?"
This doesn't sound like someone I'd rely on for an accurate depiction of Islam. He sounds bigoted, has made this very personal rather than logical, and just seems bitter and angry. He may have had a personal tragedy that caused this, which I would sympathize with, but I wouldn't rely on him as my only source of truth.
Here's the main guy putting in time at the Center for Inquiry, another listed source in the OP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_A._Lindsay
Not the type of person I'd want to source things from again. Interesting that when I look at their tax filing, the only financing seems to come from one source marked restricted.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/222306795/201532229349300948/full
The last source listed, TROP, was registered anonymously, contains almost no information about it's creators other than Glen Roberts, a possible fictitious name. The extremely low transparency does not engender my confidence, again seems they have something to hide.
So what I can establish about the origins of this post, it's contributors are anonymous, don't share my morals(support LGBT/pedos), and categorize Muslims in de-humanizing terms.
Patrick says
So now you're walking back your original statement. You've admitted the Koran/Islam is not all about hate, only the pieces you choose to focus on. Further what you're describing here with the moving target would invalidate the entire religion. There has to be a source of truth, not based on man's word, or restricted to a particular time in history. This is the foundation of all religions. Re-interpretation based on only specific parts, or specific times in history in considered heresy. There must always be an infallible, god inspired text, viewed from a holistic perspective independent of societal/modern slant.
Koresh had a very unique(wrong) interpretation of the Bible. That doesn't change Christianity, just means he was off. As soon as you start relying on people rather than the text, you lose your compass.
Patrick says
I listed a bunch of examples, you chose the oldest. And irrespective of time, wrong is still wrong.
Patrick says
You aren't a Muslim, and never have been, but you feel comfortable stating the people I know either aren't Muslims, or aren't practicing correctly. I don't know what else to call that.
I'm not saying there aren't problems with Islam, there certainly are. Just like there are problems with Buddhism, Judaism, etc. They all steal parts from the Bible, but miss the truth of God and Christ. I'm just saying your interpretation of this religion is extremist, based on extremist and unknown sources, and has led you to de-humanize a certain group of people.
There are plenty of examples of the United States government creating war and chaos in the world, and being directly involved in perpetrating terrorist acts on American soil. I would focus on our governments role in all of this, not some group of people living halfway around the world.
Please read the original post. It documents the essence of the Koran, over and over.
Here's a quote from the guy who made that site you pulled this from:
"I find the word 'Muslim' very derogatory and insulting. It is synonymous to stupid, barbarian, thug, arrogant, brain dead, zombie, hooligan, goon, shameless, savage and many other ignoble things. I don't know whether this most disgusting word elicits the same meanings in you or not. So when I want to show my despise [sic] of someone I call him 'Muslim'. But because Muslims are stupid, they don't know all these things and they are proud of this name. This is a win/win situation because I insult them and they are happy and thank me for it. Isn't that smart?"
This doesn't sound like someone I'd rely on for an accurate depiction of Islam. He sounds bigoted, has made this very personal rather than logical, and just seems bitter and angry. He may have had a personal tragedy that caused this, which I would sympathize with, but I wouldn't rely on him as my only source of truth.
Here's the main guy putting in time at the Center for Inquiry, another listed source in the OP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_A._Lindsay
Not the type of person I'd want to source things from again. Interesting that when I look at their tax filing, the only financing seems to come from one source marked restricted.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/222306795/201532229349300948/full
The last source listed, TROP, was registered anonymously, contains almost no information about it's creators other than Glen Roberts, a possible fictitious name. The extremely low transparency does not engender my confidence, again seems they have something to hide.
So what I can establish about the origins of this post, it's contributors are anonymous, don't share my morals(support LGBT/pedos), and categorize Muslims in de-humanizing terms.
Patrick says
Note that the "peaceful verses" were written before Islam got political power, and the verses after that time are not at all peaceful.
In fact, Muslims are explicitly instructed that the peaceful verses are obsolete and are to be ignored when Islam has power.
So now you're walking back your original statement. You've admitted the Koran/Islam is not all about hate, only the pieces you choose to focus on. Further what you're describing here with the moving target would invalidate the entire religion. There has to be a source of truth, not based on man's word, or restricted to a particular time in history. This is the foundation of all religions. Re-interpretation based on only specific parts, or specific times in history in considered heresy. There must always be an infallible, god inspired text, viewed from a holistic perspective independent of societal/modern slant.
Koresh had a very unique(wrong) interpretation of the Bible. That doesn't change Christianity, just means he was off. As soon as you start relying on people rather than the text, you lose your compass.
Patrick says
Yes, you have to reach centuries into the past to find examples of Christians violating Christian teaching like that.
I listed a bunch of examples, you chose the oldest. And irrespective of time, wrong is still wrong.
Patrick says
That's sounds pretty personal to me, not about the topic.
You aren't a Muslim, and never have been, but you feel comfortable stating the people I know either aren't Muslims, or aren't practicing correctly. I don't know what else to call that.
I'm not saying there aren't problems with Islam, there certainly are. Just like there are problems with Buddhism, Judaism, etc. They all steal parts from the Bible, but miss the truth of God and Christ. I'm just saying your interpretation of this religion is extremist, based on extremist and unknown sources, and has led you to de-humanize a certain group of people.
There are plenty of examples of the United States government creating war and chaos in the world, and being directly involved in perpetrating terrorist acts on American soil. I would focus on our governments role in all of this, not some group of people living halfway around the world.
2205
Patrick
2023 Oct 31, 10:28am
Patrick
2023 Oct 31, 10:28am
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2015/11/17/a-satire-of-western-apologetics-for-jihadist-terrorism/
It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic Jihadist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the Jihadists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.
It’s like a bad Monty Python sketch:
“We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it.”
“No you didn’t.”
“Wait, what? Yes we did…”
“No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons.”
“WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers.”
“No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so.”
“Huh!? Who are you to tell us we’re not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being.”
“Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that’s why you did this. We’re sorry.”
“What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians – disenfranchisement doesn’t even enter into it!”
“Listen, it’s our fault. We don’t blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out.”
“Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we’re not going to let you take it away from us.”
“No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame.”
“OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?”
2207
Reality
2023 Oct 31, 8:48pm
ad says
The news says Dai is a Pittsfield NY native. I wonder what's happening in America that would turn an East-Asian into anti-Jewish. East-Asia historically had some the most pro-Jewish population in the world. Japanese government actively sought alliance with Jews after reading "Protocol of the Elders" (they believed it) in the years leading up to and during WWII; China (especially the free city of Shanghai International Settlement) was literally the go-to place for Jews escaping Nazi persecution in Europe (and Soviet Union after Stalin took over and purged many Jews) when both UK and the US refused entry to Jewish refugees.
White (or Yellow) Supremacist
The news says Dai is a Pittsfield NY native. I wonder what's happening in America that would turn an East-Asian into anti-Jewish. East-Asia historically had some the most pro-Jewish population in the world. Japanese government actively sought alliance with Jews after reading "Protocol of the Elders" (they believed it) in the years leading up to and during WWII; China (especially the free city of Shanghai International Settlement) was literally the go-to place for Jews escaping Nazi persecution in Europe (and Soviet Union after Stalin took over and purged many Jews) when both UK and the US refused entry to Jewish refugees.
2209
gabbar
2023 Nov 1, 11:28am
gabbar
2023 Nov 1, 11:28am
The essence of Islam is my way or your death. Still, nations and peoples are passive because of vote banks.
Source for Article Threen: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm
Source for Article Threen: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm
2210
Blue
2023 Nov 1, 1:25pm
gabbar says
The current model of the "democratic" governments have some basic assumptions. Now it questions the existence of the state itself with Islam.
The essence of Islam is my way or your death. Still, nations and peoples are passive because of vote banks.
The current model of the "democratic" governments have some basic assumptions. Now it questions the existence of the state itself with Islam.
2211
Reality
2023 Nov 1, 4:30pm
gabbar says
The essence of Islam is "Submission"; Islam is Judaism marketed to the sand people, emphasizing the submission-to-ruler aspect while skipping the human-farming skills teaching of the original Judaism text, so that the population taking up Islam can be more easily farmed. Think about it: the Ottoman Caliphate had a Turkic ruling population that was less than 20% the population of Arabs in that empire. Mohammad was studying to be a scholar in Judaism (possibly/likely/probably a Jew himself) before deciding to invent his own variant; initially he taught his followers to pray 5 times a day facing Jerusalem, not Mecca. Similarly, Christianity was Judaism marketed to non-Jews in Roman Empire, likewise mellowed with an emphasis on submission to authority.
Vote banks don't matter much when election can be stolen. The agitation is just a replay of the BLM playbook, this time targeting Jews in western countries and Islamic countries (even Iran has some 30k Jews), either killing them (harvesting their bank balances) or forcing them to move to Israel (and harvest them later). That's why Soros is paying those pro-Hamas demonstrations. Soros himself being a Jew certainly felt no difficulty putting on a Nazi uniform during WWII and killing Jews; his reasoning (justification) given in an interview was that if he didn't do it, someone else would. Meanwhile using IDF to drive Gazans into migrating to the West to ruin those societies, as a way of harvesting Western middle class' bank accounts.
The essence of Islam is my way or your death. Still, nations and peoples are passive because of vote banks.
The essence of Islam is "Submission"; Islam is Judaism marketed to the sand people, emphasizing the submission-to-ruler aspect while skipping the human-farming skills teaching of the original Judaism text, so that the population taking up Islam can be more easily farmed. Think about it: the Ottoman Caliphate had a Turkic ruling population that was less than 20% the population of Arabs in that empire. Mohammad was studying to be a scholar in Judaism (possibly/likely/probably a Jew himself) before deciding to invent his own variant; initially he taught his followers to pray 5 times a day facing Jerusalem, not Mecca. Similarly, Christianity was Judaism marketed to non-Jews in Roman Empire, likewise mellowed with an emphasis on submission to authority.
Vote banks don't matter much when election can be stolen. The agitation is just a replay of the BLM playbook, this time targeting Jews in western countries and Islamic countries (even Iran has some 30k Jews), either killing them (harvesting their bank balances) or forcing them to move to Israel (and harvest them later). That's why Soros is paying those pro-Hamas demonstrations. Soros himself being a Jew certainly felt no difficulty putting on a Nazi uniform during WWII and killing Jews; his reasoning (justification) given in an interview was that if he didn't do it, someone else would. Meanwhile using IDF to drive Gazans into migrating to the West to ruin those societies, as a way of harvesting Western middle class' bank accounts.
2212
Patrick
2023 Nov 1, 4:59pm
Patrick
2023 Nov 1, 4:59pm
Reality says
Right, Islam literally means "submission" in Arabic.
Reality says
Ibn Warraq says that whoever wrote the Koran clearly had a fairly good knowledge of both Judaism and Syraic Christianity. Yet there are some truly horrible mistakes in the Koran anyway, such as the mistaking of Miriam the sister of Moses for Miriam (Mary in English) the mother of Jesus.
Reality says
Jews still pray three times per day in the direction of Jerusalem, approximated by east if you are west of Jerusalem. The Islamic hatred of Jews seems to have started when the Jews rejected Mohammed as a Jewish prophet. That's when he took over the existing Mecca cult and made it his center of religion.
The essence of Islam is "Submission"
Right, Islam literally means "submission" in Arabic.
Reality says
Mohammad was learning to be a scholar in Judaism (possibly a Jew himself)
Ibn Warraq says that whoever wrote the Koran clearly had a fairly good knowledge of both Judaism and Syraic Christianity. Yet there are some truly horrible mistakes in the Koran anyway, such as the mistaking of Miriam the sister of Moses for Miriam (Mary in English) the mother of Jesus.
Reality says
initially he taught Muslims to pray 5 times a day facing Jerusalem, not Mecca
Jews still pray three times per day in the direction of Jerusalem, approximated by east if you are west of Jerusalem. The Islamic hatred of Jews seems to have started when the Jews rejected Mohammed as a Jewish prophet. That's when he took over the existing Mecca cult and made it his center of religion.
2213
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Nov 1, 5:59pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Nov 1, 5:59pm
This thread is a monument to where propaganda leads you when you don't research your sources. I've called this out many times here. At least some of you have the balls to just state your opinion with no fact based research whatsoever. I'll take that over over the half-assed sourcing I found here. No thought at all to finding objective info, just pure rhetoric. "But at least I put a link." And when I pointed out the holes, no interest in confirming my findings, just continue on hating people because they were targeted by the US deep state on 9/11/2001 with the biggest false flag in modern history.
I never put much stock in the Zeitgeist theories until now. And the worst part is you still have the balls to criticize the Ukraine supporters with their flag logos, when you are literally doing the same thing. Fucking hypocrites.
I never put much stock in the Zeitgeist theories until now. And the worst part is you still have the balls to criticize the Ukraine supporters with their flag logos, when you are literally doing the same thing. Fucking hypocrites.
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A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins
Dear friends,
The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!
What most Muslims will say:
Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.
What knowledgeable Muslims should say:
That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.
What the Qur'an Teaches Us:
We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).
The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).
He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.
Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.
Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.
We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.
Arabic translation الترجمة العربية
See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.
Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.