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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   612,601 views  2,893 comments

by resistance   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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2487   richwicks   2024 May 9, 11:38am  

gabbar says

richwicks says



We are far worse off as a result of our interference in the Middle East.

No. richwicks says



Our continual interference in foreign nations is why we have a border crisis. We create the "refugees".

No, American politicians are greedy.richwicks says



Countries dump their criminals into our nation..

Nope but if they are Muslims then yes.richwicks says



By screwing in other nations we've destroyed our currency of this nations, the demographics of this nation, and our Constitution.

We screwed ourselves.

Explain to me how the US is better off for attacking 7 Muslim nations.

Don't just say "no" and disagree with me.

Our foreign policy is a disaster and you're a fool if you defend it if we didn't go to war in Afghanistan all that would have happened is what happened, except we'd have a lot more money and there would t be so many people dead
2488   Reality   2024 May 10, 7:12am  

HeadSet says


The Muslims held Spain until 1492 and the Ottoman Empire was expanding into central Europe (as far west as Vienna) for a thousand years after the Battle of Tours. Muslims also raided ships in the Med and even raided coastal towns as far west as Ireland taking slaves and booty. Just because the Muslims failed to take France did not mean they were not a threat.


Ottoman Empire was founded in 1299, did not exist at the time of the First Crusade in 1096. In fact, it was the 4th Crusade in 1202-04 invading and taking over the East Roman Empire (Byzantium Empire, Eastern Orthodox Christian) fundamentally weakening the latter that caused the chaos in Anatolia that gave rise to the Ottoman Empire. The rise of Islamic fleet, its domination of the Mediteranean and raiding of Irish coast all came later under Ottoman Empire, which was a result of the Crusades weakening Christian influence in east Mediteranean.

The muslim regimes in Spain in the 11th and 12th century were a cluster of small kingdoms/principalities (emirates) after the splintering of the Cordoba Caliphate, which itself was formerly a division of the Umayard Caliphate that had been overthrown by the Fatimid state (founded in 909) in the Mideast. So the muslims in Spain were enemies to the muslims in the Mideast. Instead of sending Frankish human heavy tanks to take back the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) when the muslim occupiers there were weak and splintered, the Crusades sent the Frankish human heavy tanks a long distance away to the middle east to establish a hopeless colony in southern Levant / Palestine fundamentally weakening Christianity in the east, eventually giving rise to a far more robust Muslim empire in the form of the Ottoman Empire.
2489   richwicks   2024 May 10, 7:36am  

richwicks says

Explain to me how the US is better off for attacking 7 Muslim nations.

Don't just say "no" and disagree with me.


Hey @gabbar - no response, what a goddamned surprise. SOMEHOW the wars have been good in SOMEWAY. It's good for our enemies, it's tremendously weakened the United States, has wasted enormous amounts of resources and time, and it's such bullshit to so many people, that our military has to recruit the mentally ill to join, because you've have to be insane to join a military that just starts useless fucking wars at the drop of a hat.

Our military didn't go woke because they believe in any of this DEI shit, they need people, and nobody wants to go off to 3rd world shithole and die for no fucking reason, after we've been lied into Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and bombing Libya. What good does this do for our nation? Makes some sleazebag offense contractors some money, and politicians get rich off from the graft of "aid", that's it.
2490   Patrick   2024 May 10, 8:48am  

Reality says

Ottoman Empire was founded in 1299, did not exist at the time of the First Crusade in 1096.


Technically correct, but it was preceded by similar Islamic Turkish states, like the Rum and Sejuk states.
2491   gabbar   2024 May 10, 12:10pm  

richwicks says


Hey gabbar - no response, what a goddamned surprise. SOMEHOW the wars have been good in SOMEWAY. It's good for our enemies, it's tremendously weakened the United States, has wasted enormous amounts of resources and time, and it's such bullshit to so many people, that our military has to recruit the mentally ill to join, because you've have to be insane to join a military that just starts useless fucking wars at the drop of a hat.

Our military didn't go woke because they believe in any of this DEI shit, they need people, and nobody wants to go off to 3rd world shithole and die for no fucking reason, after we've been lied into Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and bombing Libya. What good does this do for our nation? Makes some sleazebag offense contractors some money, and politicians get rich off from the graft of "aid", that's it.

Our experience with Islam is different. I don't want to respond to you because nothing good will come out of it. You won't change your perspective and I won't change mine either.
2494   krc   2024 May 10, 4:59pm  

Anyone who sees the crusades as anything other than a defensive war is trolling.
LOL - Muslims controlled large swathes in Europe up to the mid 8th century ( until iirc Martel) and
for close to 200s year after were a constant threat. Those 3-4 centuries are always ignored by the muslim apologists.
Yes - the lack of a cohesive response within Europe kept the muslim kingdoms in the south around far longer than one would have thought.

Once you hit the 14th century, the "crusades" were defensive in nature primarily protecting the eastern med and the southern Europe flank.
Not until the battle of Lepanto could you say that the West was safe (from Ottoman naval power, etc..).
The naval defeat gave pause. What the muslim countries (particularly O) were doing to the West, the West
started doing to the East. This was recapture of territory that was Christian originally and where there was mistreatment in many (but not all) cases.

But, no worries, Europe is giving it all back anyway. Demographics, as the Crusaders were slow to learn, is everything. Even when they captured territory and established governments and institutions, they could not really alter the direction (towards reversion to muslim rule) in any substantive way.

And the idea that there were these specific Crusades obscures the many "little" crusades that were constant through the centuries. It was a true war for cultural domination. And suggesting anything other than a legitimate world struggle really disrespects the strength of the various muslim empires.

When you travel throughout Israel, you see very large orthodox families (6+ kids). They understand: the future is determined by demographics.
2495   gabbar   2024 May 11, 8:34am  

krc says


When you travel throughout Israel, you see very large orthodox families (6+ kids). They understand: the future is determined by demographics.

Muslims understand this too. Ideologies of Islam and Judaism are similar in some contexts.
2496   Patrick   2024 May 11, 12:58pm  

gabbar says

Ideologies of Islam and Judaism are similar in some contexts.


I think they are essentially the same religion:

- fanatically monotheistic
- images not allowed
- hostile to outsiders
- Semitic holy languages
- no pork
- averse to alcohol (except for wine in Jewish rituals)
- don't like dogs
- men have beards
- pray towards geographical center point (Mecca and Jerusalem)

The main differences are that Jews don't try to convert anyone, and Muslims try to imitate Mohammed in all things.
2497   richwicks   2024 May 11, 2:54pm  

gabbar says


Our experience with Islam is different. I don't want to respond to you because nothing good will come out of it. You won't change your perspective and I won't change mine either.


You don't have a mind to change. What you "believe" is merely propaganda.

You are no different than the people screaming "fuck Trump" and when they are asked what is so terrible about Trump, they don't know.

You are certain these stupid fucking wars we've been in for a quarter century somehow are either good or justifiable because you are brainwashed. This isn't a conclusion you've come to.

I'm just pointing that out to other people. It's nearly impossible to break somebody's conditioning. You won't be able to see it even though I just explained the mechanism to you.

You hate Islam right? Well, if the US didn't blow up a bunch of Islamic nations, we wouldn't have a bunch of Islamic immigrants infiltrating our country. Very simple, but you can't comprehend this very basic simple to understand reasoning.
2499   richwicks   2024 May 11, 5:38pm  

AmericanKulak says





Can you understand the concept of wealonized immigration?

If you are a country, if you are run by heavy sane men, they will want to get rid of undesirables.

Now say there is a stupid country run by traitors that for whatever reason will not only take in these undesirables, but will provide incentives for them to move there...

This isn't a problem with Islam, it's a problem with the quality of people being imported.

Why can't you understand this? It's the people, not the religion.
2500   gabbar   2024 May 11, 6:47pm  

Patrick says


gabbar says


Ideologies of Islam and Judaism are similar in some contexts.


I think they are essentially the same religion:

- fanatically monotheistic
- images not allowed
- hostile to outsiders
- Semitic holy languages
- no pork
- averse to alcohol (except for wine in Jewish rituals)
- don't like dogs
- men have beards
- pray towards geographical center point (Mecca and Jerusalem)

The main differences are that Jews don't try to convert anyone, and Muslims try to imitate Mohammed in all things.


And they hate each other. So do, Sunnis and Shiites. Richard Dawkins says that the primary victims of Islam are Muslims. I have Muslim friends and I do not disagree with Dawkins. Islam is a nasty mind virus and this is why I am indifferent to what's going on in Palestine, let them go to hell.
2501   Patrick   2024 May 11, 8:17pm  

richwicks says

This isn't a problem with Islam


I think it is a problem with Islam in particular. Islam teaches that non-Muslims are scum and that Muslims may abuse them in any way they please.

The justification is that Islam was offered to the kuffirs, but they rejected it, so they forfeit all rights.
2502   richwicks   2024 May 11, 8:23pm  

Patrick says


I think it is a problem with Islam in particular. Islam teaches that non-Muslims are scum and that Muslims may abuse them in any way they please.

All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism..
2503   mell   2024 May 11, 8:28pm  

richwicks says

Patrick says



I think it is a problem with Islam in particular. Islam teaches that non-Muslims are scum and that Muslims may abuse them in any way they please.

All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism..

Judaism maybe, though not to the extent of Islam. Christianity certainly doesn't.
2504   Reality   2024 May 11, 10:14pm  

Re: Sweden vs. Hungary vs. Poland

Guess who bought and paid for Swedish politicians to mass import refugees/migrants from the Middleast?

Guess who just paid for the overthrow of the previous conservative government of Poland and ushered in the leftists who are about to throw the door wide open?

Guess who have been paying to overthrow the conservative Victor Oban in Hungry?

It's the same group of people (Deep State lame-stream media, Neocons and Zionists hired by the big banks trying to kill their liabilities the bank account holders) causing chaos in the Middleast and in Ukraine to generate the millions of displaced refugees / migrants to destroy western societies.
2505   richwicks   2024 May 11, 10:27pm  

mell says


Judaism maybe, though not to the extent of Islam. Christianity certainly doesn't.


It depends. Nobody really follows the Bible or the Qu'ron or the Talmud but if they did, basically, all those religions are very hostile to non believers.

You can look at the Inquisition in 2 ways

1) People are going to be tortured for eternity if they don't believe the right thing, so any measure taken to get them to convert is acceptable, and using any method necessary to prevent them from turning other people away from the true religion is justified because it's the ETERNAL soul after all, and you have a moral duty to save as many souls as possible.

2) It was just about power.

During the inquisition I'm sure there were people that were motivated by both. Islam never had a inquisition nor did they have any sort of holocaust, although they've had plenty of massacres. I'm of the opinion of why can't we all just get along?

I am still driven by the belief that if we could just get accurate correct information, we would end our conflict, but I know this is misguided. Even when you go through GREAT PAIN to prove you're correct about a certain subject the person you just taught will revert right back to the propaganda they hear day in and day out.

Anyhow, there wouldn't be the constant conflict in Israel if it wasn't for the government dividing up along beliefs. That's what drives the conflict. Palestinians can't convert to Judaism, and Zionists don't want to live among Muslims.
2506   AmericanKulak   2024 May 11, 11:08pm  

Khameni's Granddaughter in NYC, wearing a dress and no hijab.


"The Moral Police are for the little people of Iran"

https://x.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1789411316848799958
2507   AmericanKulak   2024 May 11, 11:13pm  

gabbar says


- images not allowed


This one is debatable in both Christianity and Judaism and to some extent in Islam (esp. Central Asians). Pictures depicting Biblical events/scenes were seldom disliked - they exist both in ancient Jewish holy sites (David and others are depicted) and famously in Palmyra, but singular Statues or representations of Saints or Individuals is considered by many to cross a line.

This has been a major bone of contention long before the Reformation in the Early Church, between Eastern and Western Catholic/Orthodoxy. The latter being for more permissive and in fact an Eastern Church Council made it an excommunicatible offense for repeatedly denying the power / utility of Icons, which the Western Catholics do NOT impose; in the East iconodulia is considered the equal of prayer and fasting. And icons were a repeated source of internal friction for the first 1000 years of the Church.

That's not getting into the varying levels of (generally lower) tolerance for imagery in Protestantism. Most of the Lutherans were upset about gargoyles and other pagan/superstitious holderovers gracing the outside of Churches than they were Saint Mary Statues.

Many Turkic and Central Asian muslims also depict scences from the Quran and secular history, sometimes with a blank face but also quite a number with the faces. Middle Eastern Arabs are far more strict on this count.

gabbar says


- averse to alcohol (except for wine in Jewish rituals)


Judaism does not prohibit alcohol, aside from the standard warnings of excess consumption. The OT is full of celebrations with wine and so is the NT when Jesus is among both Hebrew Population and wine is widely consumed. The only prohibition of alcohol is on fasting days/holidays, much like in Catholicism and some Protestant groups.

gabbar says


- Semitic holy languages

More than half of the Bible was written in Hebrew, and Aramaic words and phrases are found in the NT, famously "Maranatha" but also when Jesus heals the deaf mute. There's all but universal agreement that Jesus spoke Aramaic during his Ministry. Josephus also reports having to learn Greek as his own house tongue was Aramaic (relevant because he was from the same century and place and a Rabbi).
2508   Blue   2024 May 11, 11:57pm  

AmericanKulak says

Khameni's Granddaughter in NYC, wearing a dress and no hijab.


"The Moral Police are for the little people of Iran"

https://x.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1789411316848799958

Khameni and his fellow Mullas award instant death penalty to who looks like his Granddaughter!
2509   AmericanKulak   2024 May 12, 12:17am  

@Blue will probably agree with me when I say:

Everywhere around the world, people can restore their old worship sites and not only does the government assist or at least make concessions (for example, native American sites in the US, they may not tear down a monument but they will create a space in the holy site for Native religion), it's not controversial.

Only with India and Israel does the world DEMAND that the native people not reinstall their holy sites, even if they are willing to work around or with an existing site of another religion. In fact, World Opinion is against Hindus and Jews so much as visiting the ruins of their holy site if there is an Islamic Conquest Mosque in it.
2510   richwicks   2024 May 12, 12:37am  

AmericanKulak says

Only with India and Israel does the world DEMAND that the native people not reinstall their holy sites, even if they are willing to work around or with an existing site of another religion.


First, in Israel, they aren't natives. Their connection to the land, if they ever had one is between 40 and 80 generations ago, when an extinct empire, the Roman Empire, supposedly dispersed them.

Second, Israel keeps threatening to destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque to build the "2nd temple". In the Islamic theology, the Al-Aqsa Mosque is the site that Mohammed supposedly ascended to heaven. It is the most holy site in all of Islam, all forms of Islam.

Destroying that mosque will lead without question to an all out war with Israel and every Muslim nation in the world, even Indonesia.

Want to build a temple? Fine, build it a little further away. Make peace, but if they destroy it, it's WWIII.
2511   AmericanKulak   2024 May 12, 1:41am  

A reminder there has never been a Palestinian state, and that if you said "Palestinian" prior to 1964, it was assumed you mean "Jew" or "Israeli".

The term used prior to the 1960s was "Arab".

In any case, those who want peace should be happy the issue is on it's way to being settled. Of course, some
people only want peace by nullifying their humbug people's lone state.

As a pan-nationalist, we need more states in the Middle East, not less. A Kurdish State and possibly an Assyrian and Marionite one, too.
2512   richwicks   2024 May 12, 4:07am  

personal
2513   Patrick   2024 May 12, 9:01am  

AmericanKulak says

Judaism does not prohibit alcohol, aside from the standard warnings of excess consumption.


Not prohibited, but strongly discouraged culturally.
2514   gabbar   2024 May 12, 10:26am  

If your belief is indefensible, your ignominious last resort is to accuse your critics of “-phobia”. I have long criticised all religions as irrational, and faiths as dangerous. Most of my attacks have been against Christianity, because I know it best. In spite of this I have never been accused of Christophobia. But I am regularly berated for Islamophobia, and I even had a radio broadcast in California (about a totally unrelated subject) cancelled because of my reputation for “Islamophobia”. Cancelled, mark you, not by Muslims but by American so-called “liberals”.

“Islamophobia” is a deeply silly and pernicious abuse of language. And it’s not the only fashionable word ending in “-phobia” that condemns itself as a last-resort substitute for rational discussion.

- Richard Dawkins
2515   WookieMan   2024 May 12, 12:06pm  

richwicks says

awaiting moderation

Not touching this comment myself, though I read it and watched a good chunk of the video. You're propaganda king of the forum and asking for links. That video is one of the most obvious propaganda videos I've ever seen and I don't even side with Israel.

Not a child or adult looked starved by any metric. It's bull shit. I don't care your ethnicity, but you have some bias here that we don't know about. Sure they've been bombed, no one looked frail in that video. Everyone had western clothes and looked healthy. They filmed it amongst bombed out buildings. And.... Lob rockets at a nation that could give no shits because they have 100x's the wealth and protection. Maybe stop doing that?

Both sides are fucked up. There is no 2 state solution. One side needs to kill the other. I'll be blunt and not sugar coat it for those that don't get it.
2516   richwicks   2024 May 12, 12:39pm  

WookieMan says


Not touching this comment myself, though I read it and watched a good chunk of the video. You're propaganda king of the forum and asking for links. That video is one of the most obvious propaganda videos I've ever seen and I don't even side with Israel.


Tell me how it's wrong.

I accept when I'm incorrect, when I've been mislead, why I don't accept is somebody just telling me I'm wrong without specifying how I am.

I cannot watch that whole video. I've been seeing this shit for 30 fucking years. This is not new to me. It's heartbreaking. You don't understand, this hurts me to see, and I've seen plenty. This site: https://ifamericansknew.org/ I've known about for at least 20 years. I knew about the Washington Report of Middle Eastern Affairs for 30 years, when I first saw it I thought it was the most racist incendiary thing I ever read, but I checked all the claims, and all of them were true. That was my realization that our media lied about SOMETHING, it didn't take too long for me to realize they lied about EVERYTHING. They only spend time on telling you fiction, they don't waste time on telling you truth you already know.

Think - what has our media been correct about? Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Covid? Russian Collusion? The economy? They literally never tell you the truth. 25 years ago I was going through it to find the honest ones in it, there are none, not in NPR, PBS, CNN, Fox, anything.

Those are the assholes telling you that Israel is in the right. When has our media ever told you the truth? They don't waste time telling you what you already know, they spend their time deceiving you, exclusively. Their only job is to lie to you, and you can't see this yet, after decades of it. You spot a few of their lies, you don't yet realize they are all lies. The simplest form of propaganda is repetition, so they spend all their time on that, and I mean all of their time. What's the point of informing you of the truth? They can say one sentence about that, you will find it completely in conformance with reality, because it is true, and they will move on, and back to brainwashing you with lies with endless repetition.
2517   The_Deplorable   2024 May 12, 1:42pm  

richwicks says
"All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism.."

No, not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34
2518   richwicks   2024 May 12, 1:59pm  

The_Deplorable says


richwicks says

"All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism.."

No, not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34



https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+17&version=NIV


2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.


There was an early religious belief that the God of the old Testament was evil, and the God of the New Testament was good. The believers in this version of the religion all went to their death in the Inquisition. If Christianity is correct, they were right.

The God of the old testament was an asshole.

The Old Testament is a violent, evil, primitive, barbaric, religion. Islam is even better. Christianity mostly ignores it, thank goodness. Most Christians ignore the Old Testament, but that's the Holy book for religious Jewish people, and it's horrific. God's a total dick in it.
2519   The_Deplorable   2024 May 12, 2:46pm  

...not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34


richwicks says
"If a man or woman living among you... is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord
your God... take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that
person to death."

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.
2520   richwicks   2024 May 12, 3:42pm  

The_Deplorable says


...not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34


richwicks says

"If a man or woman living among you... is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord
your God... take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that
person to death."

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.



This is taken from the old testament of the Bible, not the Torah. I gave you the link.

As I said, there was an early version of Christianity that saw the god of the old testament as evil, and the god of the new testament of good, they were one of the first to be exterminated by the Inquisition.

IF Christianity is correct, they were right. God is a fucking asshole murderous twat in the Old Testament. It's a petty selfish, monster in the Old Testament, or the Talmud/Torah if you like, practically the same thing. In the New Testament, pretty moral upstanding guy.

Isn't the Devil the prince of lies? Why do you think he couldn't have had a book written to distort the image of god, lie about it?

I really don't want to get into theology because I can absolutely make you question it, and I don't think this is useful for you and it's time consuming to me. I'd rather concentrate on actual morality. There is a scientific principle in game theory to morality - we all benefit if we are honest, and truthful. This is how society is created, honesty and truthfulness. The reason the West did so well, is because of those traits. Look at us, first to eradicate slavery, first to accept equal rights of all men - but we are sliding down, and we need to stop that. Division will destroy all of us, not just one group, everybody.

If we slide down into authoritarianism, trust me, the climb up will be horrible. You have no idea what tools we have created. I've told you many times, you just dismiss it. If this was the Soviet State, it would be very difficult to overthrow, I would suggest just about impossible with this technology we've created. We gave all of you tremendous power, you waste it. You can know anything, talk to anybody, but all your communications can easily be intercepted, cataloged, filed, by an AI.

And you don't talk, in this short interval. You have no idea what the fuck is going on. You can know, if you spent 15 seconds to know. You won't. It's so fucking easy to know now, and this was my eternal frustration as a kid, that I couldn't know, and now I do, but you won't even look. Take you fucking injections, idiots? Pretty simple to figure out there wasn't any pandemic, no excess deaths, easy to find that out, all you needed was elementary math and to go to the CDC death count - you didn't. All this power, and you don't use it.

If you're not going to use it, if you're going to piss in the face of it, perhaps you deserve to be slaves. I am so disgusted by "humanity". You're all stupid losers. Animals at best, violent ones. "Here's the water! Drink!" - "NOPE". Well fuck you then. What a waste of time it was. We created the world's most powerful communication and research tool ever made by mankind, the envy of every civilization before us, and you can't be bothered to learn how to use it. You can ask an Iraqi if the war in Iraq was worthwhile, or a Syrian - anybody. Ukrainian - what do they think? A Ukrainian can talk to a Russian - what the fuck is going on - they won't. Just wasted 30 years on this shit. I thought you were all human, you're not.

I have to argue with morons here about how Hamas is funded, despite Israel openly stating they funded it. I have to fucking argue with dipshits about whether there was a coup in Ukraine, a civil war in Ukraine, completely documented in the time it happened. What's the point? The propaganda box controls most of you. I fucking hate that box. 10% of you, at most, are free from it.
2521   stereotomy   2024 May 12, 4:32pm  

The_Deplorable says

...not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34


richwicks says

"If a man or woman living among you... is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord
your God... take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that
person to death."

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.

I think that was the whole point of @richwicks post. Well, the fucking duh!. He SAID is was from Deuteronomy, to contrast it with the sayings of Jesus in the New Testament.
2522   The_Deplorable   2024 May 12, 4:43pm  

"This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah."

richwicks says
"This is taken from the old testament of the Bible, not the Torah. I gave
you the link."

No, because Jesus explicitly rejected stoning people to death.

When the Jews brought the adulteress to Jesus to be stoned to death he took over the stoning,
looked at them and said "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone." John 8:7
And they were so touched by their own consciences that they departed...

So again, stoning people to death is Judaism, not Christianity.
2523   Patrick   2024 May 12, 4:48pm  

The_Deplorable says


So again, stoning people to death is Judaism, not Christianity.


And stoning people to death is very central to Islam. Stoning continues to the present day in Islamic countries. They have no problem with it at all.
2524   Patrick   2024 May 12, 5:09pm  

"this fucking asshole liar"

@richwicks Why can't you stick to points and ignore the people you don't like?

Now I have to run literally everything you write through moderation, because I can't trust you to be civil.
2525   RWSGFY   2024 May 12, 6:13pm  

"Palestinians" is a KGB-created fakery. There is nothing separating them from the other Arabs in the neighborhood - same language, same culture, same religion, etc. They are as fake of a "people" as "people of Dumb-Ass" and created by the same entity and for the same reason.
2526   stereotomy   2024 May 12, 6:40pm  

@Patrick -

@The_Deplorable has not once, but twice misquoted @richwicks in this thread alone. This is a continuing problem that I recognize, not just with @The_Deplorable, and I know that you know who the major perpetrators are.

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