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Islam and Violence


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2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   560,593 views  2,615 comments

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Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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2501   Patrick   2024 May 11, 8:17pm  

richwicks says

This isn't a problem with Islam


I think it is a problem with Islam in particular. Islam teaches that non-Muslims are scum and that Muslims may abuse them in any way they please.

The justification is that Islam was offered to the kuffirs, but they rejected it, so they forfeit all rights.
2502   richwicks   2024 May 11, 8:23pm  

Patrick says


I think it is a problem with Islam in particular. Islam teaches that non-Muslims are scum and that Muslims may abuse them in any way they please.

All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism..
2503   mell   2024 May 11, 8:28pm  

richwicks says

Patrick says



I think it is a problem with Islam in particular. Islam teaches that non-Muslims are scum and that Muslims may abuse them in any way they please.

All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism..

Judaism maybe, though not to the extent of Islam. Christianity certainly doesn't.
2504   Reality   2024 May 11, 10:14pm  

Re: Sweden vs. Hungary vs. Poland

Guess who bought and paid for Swedish politicians to mass import refugees/migrants from the Middleast?

Guess who just paid for the overthrow of the previous conservative government of Poland and ushered in the leftists who are about to throw the door wide open?

Guess who have been paying to overthrow the conservative Victor Oban in Hungry?

It's the same group of people (Deep State lame-stream media, Neocons and Zionists hired by the big banks trying to kill their liabilities the bank account holders) causing chaos in the Middleast and in Ukraine to generate the millions of displaced refugees / migrants to destroy western societies.
2505   richwicks   2024 May 11, 10:27pm  

mell says


Judaism maybe, though not to the extent of Islam. Christianity certainly doesn't.


It depends. Nobody really follows the Bible or the Qu'ron or the Talmud but if they did, basically, all those religions are very hostile to non believers.

You can look at the Inquisition in 2 ways

1) People are going to be tortured for eternity if they don't believe the right thing, so any measure taken to get them to convert is acceptable, and using any method necessary to prevent them from turning other people away from the true religion is justified because it's the ETERNAL soul after all, and you have a moral duty to save as many souls as possible.

2) It was just about power.

During the inquisition I'm sure there were people that were motivated by both. Islam never had a inquisition nor did they have any sort of holocaust, although they've had plenty of massacres. I'm of the opinion of why can't we all just get along?

I am still driven by the belief that if we could just get accurate correct information, we would end our conflict, but I know this is misguided. Even when you go through GREAT PAIN to prove you're correct about a certain subject the person you just taught will revert right back to the propaganda they hear day in and day out.

Anyhow, there wouldn't be the constant conflict in Israel if it wasn't for the government dividing up along beliefs. That's what drives the conflict. Palestinians can't convert to Judaism, and Zionists don't want to live among Muslims.
2506   AmericanKulak   2024 May 11, 11:08pm  

Khameni's Granddaughter in NYC, wearing a dress and no hijab.


"The Moral Police are for the little people of Iran"

https://x.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1789411316848799958
2507   AmericanKulak   2024 May 11, 11:13pm  

gabbar says


- images not allowed


This one is debatable in both Christianity and Judaism and to some extent in Islam (esp. Central Asians). Pictures depicting Biblical events/scenes were seldom disliked - they exist both in ancient Jewish holy sites (David and others are depicted) and famously in Palmyra, but singular Statues or representations of Saints or Individuals is considered by many to cross a line.

This has been a major bone of contention long before the Reformation in the Early Church, between Eastern and Western Catholic/Orthodoxy. The latter being for more permissive and in fact an Eastern Church Council made it an excommunicatible offense for repeatedly denying the power / utility of Icons, which the Western Catholics do NOT impose; in the East iconodulia is considered the equal of prayer and fasting. And icons were a repeated source of internal friction for the first 1000 years of the Church.

That's not getting into the varying levels of (generally lower) tolerance for imagery in Protestantism. Most of the Lutherans were upset about gargoyles and other pagan/superstitious holderovers gracing the outside of Churches than they were Saint Mary Statues.

Many Turkic and Central Asian muslims also depict scences from the Quran and secular history, sometimes with a blank face but also quite a number with the faces. Middle Eastern Arabs are far more strict on this count.

gabbar says


- averse to alcohol (except for wine in Jewish rituals)


Judaism does not prohibit alcohol, aside from the standard warnings of excess consumption. The OT is full of celebrations with wine and so is the NT when Jesus is among both Hebrew Population and wine is widely consumed. The only prohibition of alcohol is on fasting days/holidays, much like in Catholicism and some Protestant groups.

gabbar says


- Semitic holy languages

More than half of the Bible was written in Hebrew, and Aramaic words and phrases are found in the NT, famously "Maranatha" but also when Jesus heals the deaf mute. There's all but universal agreement that Jesus spoke Aramaic during his Ministry. Josephus also reports having to learn Greek as his own house tongue was Aramaic (relevant because he was from the same century and place and a Rabbi).
2508   Blue   2024 May 11, 11:57pm  

AmericanKulak says

Khameni's Granddaughter in NYC, wearing a dress and no hijab.


"The Moral Police are for the little people of Iran"

https://x.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1789411316848799958

Khameni and his fellow Mullas award instant death penalty to who looks like his Granddaughter!
2509   AmericanKulak   2024 May 12, 12:17am  

@Blue will probably agree with me when I say:

Everywhere around the world, people can restore their old worship sites and not only does the government assist or at least make concessions (for example, native American sites in the US, they may not tear down a monument but they will create a space in the holy site for Native religion), it's not controversial.

Only with India and Israel does the world DEMAND that the native people not reinstall their holy sites, even if they are willing to work around or with an existing site of another religion. In fact, World Opinion is against Hindus and Jews so much as visiting the ruins of their holy site if there is an Islamic Conquest Mosque in it.
2510   richwicks   2024 May 12, 12:37am  

AmericanKulak says

Only with India and Israel does the world DEMAND that the native people not reinstall their holy sites, even if they are willing to work around or with an existing site of another religion.


First, in Israel, they aren't natives. Their connection to the land, if they ever had one is between 40 and 80 generations ago, when an extinct empire, the Roman Empire, supposedly dispersed them.

Second, Israel keeps threatening to destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque to build the "2nd temple". In the Islamic theology, the Al-Aqsa Mosque is the site that Mohammed supposedly ascended to heaven. It is the most holy site in all of Islam, all forms of Islam.

Destroying that mosque will lead without question to an all out war with Israel and every Muslim nation in the world, even Indonesia.

Want to build a temple? Fine, build it a little further away. Make peace, but if they destroy it, it's WWIII.
2511   AmericanKulak   2024 May 12, 1:41am  

A reminder there has never been a Palestinian state, and that if you said "Palestinian" prior to 1964, it was assumed you mean "Jew" or "Israeli".

The term used prior to the 1960s was "Arab".

In any case, those who want peace should be happy the issue is on it's way to being settled. Of course, some
people only want peace by nullifying their humbug people's lone state.

As a pan-nationalist, we need more states in the Middle East, not less. A Kurdish State and possibly an Assyrian and Marionite one, too.
2512   richwicks   2024 May 12, 4:07am  

personal
2513   Patrick   2024 May 12, 9:01am  

AmericanKulak says

Judaism does not prohibit alcohol, aside from the standard warnings of excess consumption.


Not prohibited, but strongly discouraged culturally.
2514   gabbar   2024 May 12, 10:26am  

If your belief is indefensible, your ignominious last resort is to accuse your critics of “-phobia”. I have long criticised all religions as irrational, and faiths as dangerous. Most of my attacks have been against Christianity, because I know it best. In spite of this I have never been accused of Christophobia. But I am regularly berated for Islamophobia, and I even had a radio broadcast in California (about a totally unrelated subject) cancelled because of my reputation for “Islamophobia”. Cancelled, mark you, not by Muslims but by American so-called “liberals”.

“Islamophobia” is a deeply silly and pernicious abuse of language. And it’s not the only fashionable word ending in “-phobia” that condemns itself as a last-resort substitute for rational discussion.

- Richard Dawkins
2515   WookieMan   2024 May 12, 12:06pm  

richwicks says

awaiting moderation

Not touching this comment myself, though I read it and watched a good chunk of the video. You're propaganda king of the forum and asking for links. That video is one of the most obvious propaganda videos I've ever seen and I don't even side with Israel.

Not a child or adult looked starved by any metric. It's bull shit. I don't care your ethnicity, but you have some bias here that we don't know about. Sure they've been bombed, no one looked frail in that video. Everyone had western clothes and looked healthy. They filmed it amongst bombed out buildings. And.... Lob rockets at a nation that could give no shits because they have 100x's the wealth and protection. Maybe stop doing that?

Both sides are fucked up. There is no 2 state solution. One side needs to kill the other. I'll be blunt and not sugar coat it for those that don't get it.
2516   richwicks   2024 May 12, 12:39pm  

WookieMan says


Not touching this comment myself, though I read it and watched a good chunk of the video. You're propaganda king of the forum and asking for links. That video is one of the most obvious propaganda videos I've ever seen and I don't even side with Israel.


Tell me how it's wrong.

I accept when I'm incorrect, when I've been mislead, why I don't accept is somebody just telling me I'm wrong without specifying how I am.

I cannot watch that whole video. I've been seeing this shit for 30 fucking years. This is not new to me. It's heartbreaking. You don't understand, this hurts me to see, and I've seen plenty. This site: https://ifamericansknew.org/ I've known about for at least 20 years. I knew about the Washington Report of Middle Eastern Affairs for 30 years, when I first saw it I thought it was the most racist incendiary thing I ever read, but I checked all the claims, and all of them were true. That was my realization that our media lied about SOMETHING, it didn't take too long for me to realize they lied about EVERYTHING. They only spend time on telling you fiction, they don't waste time on telling you truth you already know.

Think - what has our media been correct about? Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Covid? Russian Collusion? The economy? They literally never tell you the truth. 25 years ago I was going through it to find the honest ones in it, there are none, not in NPR, PBS, CNN, Fox, anything.

Those are the assholes telling you that Israel is in the right. When has our media ever told you the truth? They don't waste time telling you what you already know, they spend their time deceiving you, exclusively. Their only job is to lie to you, and you can't see this yet, after decades of it. You spot a few of their lies, you don't yet realize they are all lies. The simplest form of propaganda is repetition, so they spend all their time on that, and I mean all of their time. What's the point of informing you of the truth? They can say one sentence about that, you will find it completely in conformance with reality, because it is true, and they will move on, and back to brainwashing you with lies with endless repetition.
2517   The_Deplorable   2024 May 12, 1:42pm  

richwicks says
"All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism.."

No, not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34
2518   richwicks   2024 May 12, 1:59pm  

The_Deplorable says


richwicks says

"All Abrahamic religions shit on the infidel including Christianity and Judaism.."

No, not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34



https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+17&version=NIV


2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.


There was an early religious belief that the God of the old Testament was evil, and the God of the New Testament was good. The believers in this version of the religion all went to their death in the Inquisition. If Christianity is correct, they were right.

The God of the old testament was an asshole.

The Old Testament is a violent, evil, primitive, barbaric, religion. Islam is even better. Christianity mostly ignores it, thank goodness. Most Christians ignore the Old Testament, but that's the Holy book for religious Jewish people, and it's horrific. God's a total dick in it.
2519   The_Deplorable   2024 May 12, 2:46pm  

...not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34


richwicks says
"If a man or woman living among you... is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord
your God... take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that
person to death."

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.
2520   richwicks   2024 May 12, 3:42pm  

The_Deplorable says


...not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34


richwicks says

"If a man or woman living among you... is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord
your God... take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that
person to death."

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.



This is taken from the old testament of the Bible, not the Torah. I gave you the link.

As I said, there was an early version of Christianity that saw the god of the old testament as evil, and the god of the new testament of good, they were one of the first to be exterminated by the Inquisition.

IF Christianity is correct, they were right. God is a fucking asshole murderous twat in the Old Testament. It's a petty selfish, monster in the Old Testament, or the Talmud/Torah if you like, practically the same thing. In the New Testament, pretty moral upstanding guy.

Isn't the Devil the prince of lies? Why do you think he couldn't have had a book written to distort the image of god, lie about it?

I really don't want to get into theology because I can absolutely make you question it, and I don't think this is useful for you and it's time consuming to me. I'd rather concentrate on actual morality. There is a scientific principle in game theory to morality - we all benefit if we are honest, and truthful. This is how society is created, honesty and truthfulness. The reason the West did so well, is because of those traits. Look at us, first to eradicate slavery, first to accept equal rights of all men - but we are sliding down, and we need to stop that. Division will destroy all of us, not just one group, everybody.

If we slide down into authoritarianism, trust me, the climb up will be horrible. You have no idea what tools we have created. I've told you many times, you just dismiss it. If this was the Soviet State, it would be very difficult to overthrow, I would suggest just about impossible with this technology we've created. We gave all of you tremendous power, you waste it. You can know anything, talk to anybody, but all your communications can easily be intercepted, cataloged, filed, by an AI.

And you don't talk, in this short interval. You have no idea what the fuck is going on. You can know, if you spent 15 seconds to know. You won't. It's so fucking easy to know now, and this was my eternal frustration as a kid, that I couldn't know, and now I do, but you won't even look. Take you fucking injections, idiots? Pretty simple to figure out there wasn't any pandemic, no excess deaths, easy to find that out, all you needed was elementary math and to go to the CDC death count - you didn't. All this power, and you don't use it.

If you're not going to use it, if you're going to piss in the face of it, perhaps you deserve to be slaves. I am so disgusted by "humanity". You're all stupid losers. Animals at best, violent ones. "Here's the water! Drink!" - "NOPE". Well fuck you then. What a waste of time it was. We created the world's most powerful communication and research tool ever made by mankind, the envy of every civilization before us, and you can't be bothered to learn how to use it. You can ask an Iraqi if the war in Iraq was worthwhile, or a Syrian - anybody. Ukrainian - what do they think? A Ukrainian can talk to a Russian - what the fuck is going on - they won't. Just wasted 30 years on this shit. I thought you were all human, you're not.

I have to argue with morons here about how Hamas is funded, despite Israel openly stating they funded it. I have to fucking argue with dipshits about whether there was a coup in Ukraine, a civil war in Ukraine, completely documented in the time it happened. What's the point? The propaganda box controls most of you. I fucking hate that box. 10% of you, at most, are free from it.
2521   stereotomy   2024 May 12, 4:32pm  

The_Deplorable says

...not Christianity. Jesus stated explicitly that his followers are not forced but do so voluntarily.
"Whoever wants to be my disciple..." Mark 8:34


richwicks says

"If a man or woman living among you... is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord
your God... take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that
person to death."

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.

I think that was the whole point of @richwicks post. Well, the fucking duh!. He SAID is was from Deuteronomy, to contrast it with the sayings of Jesus in the New Testament.
2522   The_Deplorable   2024 May 12, 4:43pm  

"This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah."

richwicks says
"This is taken from the old testament of the Bible, not the Torah. I gave
you the link."

No, because Jesus explicitly rejected stoning people to death.

When the Jews brought the adulteress to Jesus to be stoned to death he took over the stoning,
looked at them and said "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone." John 8:7
And they were so touched by their own consciences that they departed...

So again, stoning people to death is Judaism, not Christianity.
2523   Patrick   2024 May 12, 4:48pm  

The_Deplorable says


So again, stoning people to death is Judaism, not Christianity.


And stoning people to death is very central to Islam. Stoning continues to the present day in Islamic countries. They have no problem with it at all.
2524   Patrick   2024 May 12, 5:09pm  

"this fucking asshole liar"

@richwicks Why can't you stick to points and ignore the people you don't like?

Now I have to run literally everything you write through moderation, because I can't trust you to be civil.
2525   RWSGFY   2024 May 12, 6:13pm  

"Palestinians" is a KGB-created fakery. There is nothing separating them from the other Arabs in the neighborhood - same language, same culture, same religion, etc. They are as fake of a "people" as "people of Dumb-Ass" and created by the same entity and for the same reason.
2526   stereotomy   2024 May 12, 6:40pm  

@Patrick -

@The_Deplorable has not once, but twice misquoted @richwicks in this thread alone. This is a continuing problem that I recognize, not just with @The_Deplorable, and I know that you know who the major perpetrators are.
2527   Blue   2024 May 12, 6:49pm  

WookieMan says


There is no 2 state solution. One side needs to kill the other. I'll be blunt and not sugar coat it for those that don't get it.

That is THE only solution particularly if Muslims are involved. Look at any other place in the world at any time in history. Muslims by design resort to negative sides of human behavior to extract everything from non-Muslims to maximize the their gains and eradicate non-Muslim all together faster. This is what they are taught as a cult for living.
Did anyone see not a single Muslim country absorb the tiny fake "Palestinians"!! Its part of their expansion! If anyone looking for "peace" with Muslims, that will only make Jihad faster!
Coexisting with Muslims do not exist, that includes Muslims them selves!
2528   Patrick   2024 May 12, 9:20pm  

stereotomy says

The_Deplorable has not once, but twice misquoted richwicks in this thread alone.


@stereotomy

I don't see the misquote. Can you point me to it?
2529   AmericanKulak   2024 May 12, 10:46pm  

@Patrick

I'm having trouble quoting images in particular. It usually sends me to the one after the one I am trying to quote.
2530   AmericanKulak   2024 May 12, 10:48pm  

The_Deplorable says


When the Jews brought the adulteress to Jesus to be stoned to death he took over the stoning,
looked at them and said "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone." John 8:7
And they were so touched by their own consciences that they departed...

So again, stoning people to death is Judaism, not Christianity.

I read this as a "Don't be a hypocrite" situation, a major theme in the NT (in the OT as well but less pronounced).

A hooker in a 1st Century AD village isn't being flown out to Dubai or ubering somewhere, so many of her Johns must be local and in the crowd. Just my take on this.

The_Deplorable says

This is Judaism, not Christianity. This is from Deuteronomy the fifth book of the Torah.

Jesus is fulfilling - that is, filling up the gas tank of the Law, NOT replacing or 'superceding' it. Time and time again the Lord demonstrates Mercy when by the Law groups and individuals are in total violation of it, and Jesus is there to remind everybody of it. Parable of the King and His Servant another example.
2531   richwicks   2024 May 12, 10:49pm  

Patrick says

richwicks Why can't you stick to points and ignore the people you don't like?

It's not people I don't like.

It's lies I don't like.

You don't understand where we are. Because nobody gives a fuck about being truthful and now we have ai, we lost the world. All we are going to get now is an unrelenting set of machine producing bullshit forever.

You'll see. It's been 10 years that we've had a recording of Victoria Nuland proving the US overthrew Ukraine. It doesn't matter. Standards of proof no longer matter and soon it will be impossible to prove anything.
2532   WookieMan   2024 May 13, 4:04am  

richwicks says

Tell me how it's wrong.

I accept when I'm incorrect, when I've been mislead, why I don't accept is somebody just telling me I'm wrong without specifying how I am.

I cannot watch that whole video.

You took the time to write a 4-5 paragraph response... Watch your own video dude. I did.

It's clear as day it's propaganda on the Palestinian side. Again, I don't side with either side. I know bull shit when I see it. Marching around people in 1st world clothing in spots that were actually bombed AND not being malnourished or thin by most metrics. It isn't an open air starving prison. It looks like shit, but that's most of the middle east in general terms outside of a few cities with massive oil wealth.

There's nothing for me to prove either. I've done enough research that I know both sides are idiots and so is our government for even being involved. That doesn't change the fact the video was propaganda. Watch videos you post next time...
2533   Patrick   2024 May 13, 9:02am  

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/pot-holes-monday-may-13-2024-c-and


In a bizarre attack that happened to be recorded, colorful pro-freedom, anti-vaccine Sydney Bishop Mar Mari Emmanuel was stabbed six times in the head by a 16-year-old muslim boy during services at the Christ the Good Shepherd Church in Wakeley. Four other people were injured.

Here’s the clip of the attack video. Last month, Australia’s so-called e-Safety Commission found the videos of the attack too dangerous for the general public, or something, and ordered the social media platforms to block it from view. Only Twitter/X filed suit.

Then yesterday, an Australian judge accepted Twitter’s arguments and refused to extend an injunction banning the graphic attack video. The case will proceed to trial, but for the time being, Australians are now deemed mature enough to watch the clip for themselves.
2534   Reality   2024 May 13, 4:22pm  

AmericanKulak says


Khameni's Granddaughter in NYC, wearing a dress and no hijab.


"The Moral Police are for the little people of Iran"

https://x.com/ImtiazMadmood/status/1789411316848799958


Also check out historical Iranian street photos from the 1950's-1970's showing girls in short skirts (some even mini-skirts) every bit as fashionable as NYC at the time. What these facts show is that the so-called Islamic Fundamentalist Movement is a bankster scam just like Communism, Nazism and Zionism: schemes using narcissistic thugs to rob existing middle-class and upper-class members of a prosperous society (with lot of savings, which are liabilities to banksters), killing many of the account holders so that their bank accounts would be abandoned to the banksters, then the thugs in turn get harvested by later waves of revolutionaries and fundamentalists (i.e. thugs). Khomeini was sheltered in Paris before being returned to Iran to overthrow the Shah.

Before bankster-promoted Nietzsche pronounced "God is dead!" to open ways for Communism and Nazism, the game was played through "Schisms": pogroms against Catholics in England to rob their money and assets, while progroms against Huguenots (Protestants) in France for the similar purpose. The 30-Years War ravaged Europe for three decades and killed millions of bank account holders.

Islam is a sect of Judaism (just like Christianity is). Paul, Mohammed and Joseph Smith (of Latter Day Saints) played similar roles.

The religion invented in the 5th Century BC by Ezra the Aryan (Iran / Persia) agent, copying elements from his native Zoroastrianism while integrating elements from the Palestine Egyptian exile Akhenaten legends from 800 years earlier, proved effective in encouraging human cattle to reproduce by creating a system convincing women submit to their men. The gullible however tend to reproduce more than the more intelligent ones in peace time (r-selection vs. K-selection; the dumber tend to be happier and less worried); you can see that even today in Israel/Palestine: Palestinians out-breed the Israelis, and religious Israelis out-breed the secular Israelis; so the religion also has a built-in system for periodic culling by referring to the multiple genocide episodes in the made-up story as ordained by God therefore encouraging followers to replicate in their own life time (Ezra had written those stories for the precise purpose of threatening genocide against locals who did not wish to identify as his invented "Jew" tribe; keep in mind even today Aryans/Iran/Persian have an average IQ around 100, whereas the average IQ for Arabs is around 85, so Ezra's retinue was successful in convincing the locals to identify as "Jews" and Ezra's own group as the top Jews the Levites the privileged priest class; they didn't have the 2000lb bomb to wipe out the locals and probably preferred locals to remain as tax cattle and useful canon/arrow/sharp-stick fodder/meat-shields against other tribes, so invented the caste system named "Jew" to encompass both themselves and a far larger local population below them). More than coincidentally, the culling of human herd also benefit the Aryan banksters (the Persian Empire was built on the foundation of financial fraud: underweight precious metal coins, and banking operations that overpromise the warriors/agents and rely on killing account holders, including past agents, to stay in business).
2537   NuttBoxer   2024 May 15, 7:29am  

Let's review:

Mossad involved in 9/11 and Epstein pedo blackmail operation. AIPAC possibly the most powerful lobby in the US. Lots of recent 1st Amendment censorship laws directly linked cleaning up Israel's image. Israel made a plan to deport most of Gaza to Western countries. But I should be worried about Muslims..?
2538   socal2   2024 May 15, 8:34am  

NuttBoxer says

But I should be worried about Muslims..?


This is so embarrassing.

No - its pathetic.

In our lifetimes, radical Muslims have managed to ethnically cleanse virtually all non-Muslims (including hundreds of thousands of Jews) from the Middle East, turning their countries into primitive Islamist shitholes. These Islamist shithole countries end up having wars with their non-Muslims neighbors and internecine battles between Sunni/Shia and moderate sects resulting in massive refugee crisis flooding Europe with rape and crime.

And you find a way to blame Israel on all this? Some big massive Jew conspiracy? Muslims have absolutely no agency or responsibility for their co-religionist actions around the planet?
2539   RWSGFY   2024 May 15, 9:10am  

socal2 says

NuttBoxer says


But I should be worried about Muslims..?


This is so embarrassing.

No - its pathetic.

In our lifetimes, radical Muslims have managed to ethnically cleanse virtually all non-Muslims (including hundreds of thousands of Jews) from the Middle East, turning their countries into primitive Islamist shitholes. These Islamist shithole countries end up having wars with their non-Muslims neighbors and internecine battles between Sunni/Shia and moderate sects resulting in massive refugee crisis flooding Europe with rape and crime.

And you find a way to blame Israel on all this? Some big massive Jew conspiracy? Muslims have absolutely no agency or responsibility for their co-religionist actions around the planet?


JDS is a thing, apparently.
2540   PeopleUnited   2024 May 15, 9:23am  

ZDS (Zionist derangement syndrome) aka Jew man bad, and Zionist man bad has infected many people. One of the most vocal ZDS sufferers is here on Patnet and claims to be “Christian.”
Even self proclaimed Christians now suffer from ZDS.

Just goes to show the deception of the last days is nearly complete.
2 Thessalonians chapter 2

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