Islam and Violence

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2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   560,892 views  2,616 comments

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Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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2578   Patrick   2024 May 17, 4:46pm  

It is that simple. Stay the fuck out of other countries' business.

If they attack America, we attack back. But only if we're sure it's not a false flag orchestrated by Raytheon.

If some Islamic group attacks a US ship, then we attack that group. But again, only if we're sure it's not a false flag orchestrated by Raytheon.

If Houthis attack Israeli ships, that's an Israeli problem, and most definitely not an American problem.
2579   Patrick   2024 May 17, 4:59pm  


An Amazon security guard tried to kill his supervisor at close range before shooting a police officer in a dramatic shoutout that was caught on bodycam footage.

Ali Hamsa Yusuf, 22, was fatally shot by police after he opened fire on an officer who was saved by his bulletproof vest, authorities said.

The initial shooting occurred around 4:40 pm Sunday at the warehouse in West Jefferson, Ohio, and was captured on surveillance footage, police said during a news conference Monday.

Yusuf, a security guard trainee at an Amazon warehouse in the state, came up behind the supervisor before pointing a gun at his head just feet away, police said.

As Yusuf pulled the trigger, the gun jammed. He then cleared the weapon and fired again - this time narrowly missing the victim's head, West Jefferson Police Chief Brandon Smith said.

The supervisor, who was not injured, warned the police in a 911 call.

'He was my trainee,' the caller said on a 911 call. 'He shot at me twice, but he missed. He almost executed me. He is leaving the parking lot as we speak in a car.'

The same caller used a radio device to warn the rest of the staff to evacuate the building.

'Get out of the building now. There's an active shooting in the building,' he said. 'This is not a drill. There is an active shooting in the building.'

There were more than 100 workers inside the building when the shooting occurred, officials said.

Smith said police responded and arrived within two minutes of receiving reports of an active shooter.

Yusuf soon fled the building but was spotted later on Sunday in Columbus by Madison County authorities. Yusuf chased his supervisor for about 15 yards.

An hour and a half later, officers found Yusuf in the area of Georgesville and Clime roads.

Franklin Township and Columbus police tried to stop his vehicle a short time later, and Yusuf then left the vehicle and began firing at a Columbus officer, who police said was hit by a bullet but was not seriously injured due to his bulletproof vest.

Yusuf then tried to run away as other officers fired at him, and he was hit by at least one bullet.

He was taken to a hospital but was pronounced dead there a short time later.

The Columbus officer, identified only as a four-year veteran of the force, was treated at the hospital for minor injuries and released later Sunday.

Yusuf was not supposed to have a gun while on duty, police said.

It's also not yet known why he tried to shoot his supervisor. Yusuf also had no known criminal history, authorities said.

I don't think that Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to the US. Islam continuously inspires violence against random innocent people over and over all around the world, every single day.

2580   gabbar   2024 May 18, 8:39am  

Patrick says

I don't think that Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to the US.

Can Americans become citizens of Saudi Arabia? Nope. Because Saudis know that their culture will get polluted. Saudis like to preserve their religion and culture. So non-Saudis can work in Saudi Arabia until the day of your death but you cannot become its citizen. Why shouldn't this reasoning apply in western countries? Is American culture not important? Is American religion (Christianity) not important? Is American culture just money and not people?

Islamic culture is incompatible with culture of all western and non-Muslim countries, not just the US.
2581   Patrick   2024 May 18, 12:50pm  

richwicks says

awaiting moderation

"this fucking asshole liar"

Rich, why do you keep deliberately insulting the other users? Please stop that.
2582   gabbar   2024 May 18, 5:02pm  

As you know these are 3 adjacent cities in Michigan. When one drive through these cities, it feels like a different country. It reflects Arab culture, not American culture, not Christian culture......it shouldn't be this way. Local culture should be given deference....this is how one shows respect and how cooperation and peace can be enhanced. And Islam doesn't believe in respecting anything that is non-Islamic....that is why the followers suck wherever they are.

2584   gabbar   2024 May 19, 5:01am  

PeopleUnited says

Special treatment or protection racket? Here’s the thing, Israel would not exist were it not for USA. And then Islamists would have USA as enemy number one rather than Israel. It’s kinda nice having Islamic rage focused primarily on Israel and less on USA. Plus we have a good trading partner ship with Israel and most of the aid probably is actual just handouts to the MIC because it comes right back to USA for weapons purchases. My guess is MIC is responsible for as much of the “Special Treatment” you ascribe to Israel as anything. We spend more money and get less back from the majority of our foreign aid. But aid to Israel is actually probably just aid to Lockheed, Raytheon, etc....

Also since imperial USA is dead set on having bases and influence in the Middle East, we kinda need at least one Middel Eastern nation as our ride or die. No other nation besides Israel could qualify as worthy as our ride or die buddy in the ME.

This is a good hypothesis. Robert Kennedy called Israel our aircraft carrier in the Middle East.
2585   HeadSet   2024 May 19, 6:18am  

gabbar says

Here’s the thing, Israel would not exist were it not for USA. And then Islamists would have USA as enemy number one rather than Israel.

Baloney. With no Israel and the US not being in the Middle East at all, the Islamists would not hate us anymore than they hate Canada or Mexico.
2586   Patrick   2024 May 19, 8:52am  

I think that Muslims would still attack non-Muslims simply because oppression of non-Muslims is a core principle of Islam:


In March 1786, two future presidents met with an ambassador from the pirate nations of North Africa. Thomas Jefferson, who was the U.S. ambassador in France, and John Adams, the ambassador to Britain, met with the ambassador from Tripoli in London. They asked why American merchant ships were being attacked without provocation.

The ambassador explained that Muslim pirates considered Americans to be infidels and they believed they simply had the right to plunder American ships.
2587   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 11:51am  

HeadSet says

Baloney. With no Israel and the US not being in the Middle East at all, the Islamists would not hate us anymore than they hate Canada or Mexico.

Queens Hatchet Attack on NYPD, Paris attacks/Bataclan, Belgium Attacks, London Bridge Attacks, Manchester Bombing, Strassbourg Christmas Market attack, Cafe Lindt attack in Australia, etc.

There are more Islamic terror attacks against Western countries that don't give aid to Israel. France has been in favor of a Palestinian State officially for decades now, and didn't participate at all in the Iraq War - in fact France's official stance is that the war was ILLEGAL, yet it's the Primary Target in Europe for Islamic attacks.

MOST terror attacks happen by Muslims and against Muslims deemed not Muslim enough by other Muslims, like the Peshawar School attack in Pakistan. The second most common is in countries where Islam is a significant proportion of the population, like India and Nigeria.

Beyond Europe there's been attacks in Mumbai and the infamous Anti-Christian Nigerian Mall Massacre in 2013. Thousands of Christian Nigerians were killed last year in terror attacks for being Christian, and almost nobody gives a shit. The Owo church attack in 2022 killed 50+ people by the Islamic State of Africa.
2588   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 11:56am  

Patrick says

There should be zero US soldiers outside of US borders and zero money or weapons sent abroad.

What happens when Islamicists and Pirates attack US Shipping? Should we wimp out from our Freedom of the Seas and Trade? Jefferson himself retaliated.

No permanent entanglements, yes. No entanglements, well it's not always our choice, it only takes one party to throw a net.
2589   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 11:59am  

Israel would not exist but for the USA vote at the UN.

However, Israel did exist 1948-1968 - the times it was closest to destruction earlier on - without US military aid to any degree. The Annual US Aid to Israel, $4B is 3-4% of the Israeli Budget, and 1-2% of Israeli GDP. Replacing the aid would require a little cut, maybe a couple of pennies in new taxes here and there. It's a Groinpat fantasy that Israel would disappear without US Aid. Just look at the numbers.
2590   Patrick   2024 May 19, 11:59am  

America should absolutely retaliate against all attacks on US shipping.

But attacks on Israeli shipping are not attacks on US shipping. Israel is a foreign country.

I'm very fond of Ireland and have relatives there. But still, the US should not be defending Irish shipping, for example.
2591   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 12:02pm  

Patrick says

But attacks on Israeli shipping are not attacks on US shipping. Israel is a foreign country.

I believe the Houthis are not attacking exclusively Israeli shipping, but the shipping of multiple countries including minor nations.

The Houthis made remarks about British, Americans, and Israelis, but the car carrier Galaxy Leader was Japanese leased and flagged, built in Gadansk Poland, had unloaded in Turkey (!!!), contained no cargo, and was steaming to India. The only connection is one of the many co-owners of the vessel is Israeli.
2592   PeopleUnited   2024 May 19, 12:12pm  

I don’t believe the Houthis can tell the difference between a horny goat and a shipping container. When they fire on a ship miles away they have no idea what they are doing. They are worse than pirates. At least pirates stole for a reason, Houthis sink ships because they can.
2593   gabbar   2024 May 19, 12:13pm  

Patrick says

I think that Muslims would still attack non-Muslims simply because oppression of non-Muslims is a core principle of Islam:

By extension, Muslims will hollow out our country because of the reason mentioned by the ambassador.
2594   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 12:14pm  

The ZDS favorite far left-wing Israeli paper opinion piece:

"Saudi-Israeli Normalization would be Disaster"

This is the whole reason for the Oct7 attacks. it does neither Hamas nor Iran any good for Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalize relations.

The maint rivalry centers in the Middle East are: Ba'athists vs. Gulf Arabs vs. Iranians vs. Turks. The Israelis, Kurds, Yemeni, etc. are all secondary to the Big 4 Rivalry.

Iranians work with the Ba'athists sometimes but the bloodiest war in the PostWar Middle East BY FAR was the Iran-Iraq war.
Arabs have always been rivals to the Persians, plus the Sectarian Shi'a-Sunni aspect
Arabs and Persians have ALSO been long rivals to the Turks. While Arabs and Persians may cooperate with Turks, each ethnicity thinks they are the True Defender of Islam and should dominate the Middle East.
Ba'athists in Syria and Lebanon are backed by Shi'a but in Iraq the Ba'athists are Sunni.
Iranians use Yemeni to badger Saudi Arabia as they use Hezbollah to badger Christian Lebanese and Israel.
Sunnis in Syria are legit oppressed and have been for decades and hate the Shi'a-Alawite-Eastern Orthodox minority alliance against them as they are the most populous group in Syria but kept out of all meaningful political power.
Palestinian cause was initially bankrolled by Ba'athists/SSNP to bring in Southern Syria to the future Levantine Superstate in Damascus, also why they hate the Kingdom of Jordan which they believe is part of Greater Syria as should be Lebanon and parts of Turkey (Antioch).

That's just SOME of the complexity.

Guys like Dawson who have their humbug and have pledged their belief to the current (which WILL change in our liftimes) alliance of Ba'athist-Ayatollah will NOT give you the full story, as they themselves are uninterested in digging into it.
2595   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 12:27pm  

No Israeli Government has ever declared they will destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque (which is probably built over the 2nd Temple, given the Islamic custodians and now the Arabs forbid any digging or exploration under the Mount).

In fact, the Islamic Waqf continues to control the Al Aqsa mosque and the Temple Mount (as opposed to the Wall) as it has since the council was formed in the 1100s AD. In 1967 when control of the area was siezed from the illegal annexation/occupation of the Kingdom of Jordan, the Waqf continued it's administration seamlessly and continuously.

Only during riots and war has Israel restricted general access to the Mosque and never to members of the council even in the heat of War or Intifada, and never for any serious length of time.

The same way the Israelis recognize the 3-Church shared control over the Church of the Nativity that bizarrely excludes all Protestants from a say, something Israel should remedy by Fiat, IMHO. As well as other sites like Capernum.
2596   AmericanKulak   2024 May 19, 12:37pm  

PeopleUnited says

I don’t believe the Houthis can tell the difference between a horny goat and a shipping container. When they fire on a ship miles away they have no idea what they are doing. They are worse than pirates. At least pirates stole for a reason, Houthis sink ships because they can.

Because their Iranian backers tell them too.

It's very obvious that far from TOTAL DOMINATION of the US by ISRAHELL, at the very least there is a strong contingent in the Kerry-ized State Department that is Pro-Ayatollah.
2597   Patrick   2024 May 19, 1:01pm  

AmericanKulak says

That's just SOME of the complexity.

Right, the whole Middle East is completely insane imho and I don't think the US can or should even try to arbitrate those rivalries.
2598   Patrick   2024 May 19, 1:02pm  

gabbar says

Patrick says

I think that Muslims would still attack non-Muslims simply because oppression of non-Muslims is a core principle of Islam:

By extension, Muslims will hollow out our country because of the reason mentioned by the ambassador.

Yes, they will if they can, which is a good reason to stop all Islamic immigration to the West.

Every mosque is a foreign military base.
2600   RWSGFY   2024 May 20, 7:12am  

Patrick says

America should absolutely retaliate against all attacks on US shipping.

But attacks on Israeli shipping are not attacks on US shipping. Israel is a foreign country.

I'm very fond of Ireland and have relatives there. But still, the US should not be defending Irish shipping, for example.

American advocacy for freedom of navigation extends as far back as a 1778 treaty with France, enshrining freedom of navigation as a legal custom on a bilateral level. In the 20th century, Woodrow Wilson advocated for freedom of navigation, making it Point 2 of his Fourteen Points (see Freedom of the seas). The US has not ratified the 1982 UNCLOS treaty, but it is a party to the preceding 1958 Convention on the High Seas. Despite its failure to formally ratify UNCLOS, the US now considers UNCLOS to be part of customary international law, and has committed to adhering to and enforcing the law.
2601   NuttBoxer   2024 May 20, 7:22am  

A wealthy group of Muslim clerics have been pressuring government officials to attack US students. Did I get that right AIPAC..?

A group of pro-Israel billionaires have a WhatsApp group where they coordinate how to influence the US response to October 7, including pressuring Eric Adams to use the NYPD against Columbia students.

All this time it was Eric Adams who was in bed with outside agitators.

The… pic.twitter.com/U1XkFATcpm

— Rania Khalek (@RaniaKhalek) May 17, 2024
2602   RWSGFY   2024 May 20, 1:39pm  

Salman Rushdie has said that the formation of a Palestinian state “right now” would mean a “Taliban-like state” is created.
Commenting on the US campus protesters calling for a free Palestine, the author said that while he has “argued for a Palestinian state for most of my life – since the 1980s, probably – right now, if there was a Palestinian state, it would be run by Hamas, and that would make it a Taliban-like state, and it would be a client state of Iran”.
“Is that what the progressive movements of the western left wish to create? To have another Taliban, another Ayatollah-like state, in the Middle East, right next to Israel?” said the Indian-born British-American author on a podcast run by German broadcaster Rundfunk Berlin-Brandenburg which was released on Thursday.
“The fact is that I think any human being right now has to be distressed by what is happening in Gaza because of the quantity of innocent death. I would just like some of the protests to mention Hamas. Because that’s where this started, and Hamas is a terrorist organisation. It’s very strange for young, progressive student politics to kind of support a fascist terrorist group.”
2603   socal2   2024 May 20, 1:56pm  


It’s very strange for young, progressive student politics to kind of support a fascist terrorist group.”

Like I keep saying, anti-Semitism is one of the planet's oldest mental diseases and makes normal people totally retarded. So no surprise that the majority of the pro-Hamas crowd (that are not outright Islamists or anti-Semites) are unthinking Progs and LGBTQ morons that are guided by emotions and easily manipulated by Tik Tok videos.

Just the type of people we want influencing US policy!
2604   WookieMan   2024 May 20, 3:04pm  

socal2 says

Just the type of people we want influencing US policy!

I say who gives a fuck. We'll always have connections around the globe. I honestly don't care about Israeli's or Palestinians. In rural IL, no one even talks about it. It's a non-issue. As it should be. Let them kick the shit out of each other. Not sure why it has anything to do with the US.

If I get in a fight, I fight the other dude. I don't expect a guy from the neighboring town to come in and save me. We're trying to save both fighters. It's retarded. Literally just walk away at this point. This goes on until one of the parties in the fist fight dies. Kind of indisputable. Let the two religious geeks duke it out and move on. Fact is no country wants either of them. Otherwise this situation wouldn't exist.
2605   AmericanKulak   2024 May 20, 4:57pm  


“Is that what the progressive movements of the western left wish to create?


They are in love with Iran, after all.
2606   gabbar   2024 May 21, 2:50am  

WookieMan says

Not sure why it has anything to do with the US.

Its ultimately about control of oil in the Middle East. If there was no oil, US wouldn't fart in Israel.
2607   WookieMan   2024 May 21, 4:56am  

gabbar says

WookieMan says

Not sure why it has anything to do with the US.

Its ultimately about control of oil in the Middle East. If there was no oil, US wouldn't fart in Israel.

To an extent. But we don't need their oil in the ME. This is pure religion and an ethnic issue in my opinion. We should not even do anything in the ME. Let them figure it out. When both sides are wrong, what the hell are you gonna do to fix it?
2608   PeopleUnited   2024 May 21, 5:46am  

Israel is the focus of the events of Revelation and a bunch of Old Testament prophecy.

Israel will continue to be protected by God and hated by the majority of the world. And despite this hatred, Israel will survive and when Jesus returns he will set up His kingdom in Israel. This kingdom will reign on earth and He will rule with a rod of iron for 1000 years. Christians and Jews are not waiting for the end of the world. We are waiting for Christ to return to establish His literal earthly kingdom which will rule from Jerusalem.

There is still time to repent and believe the gospel. Those who wait too long will miss the rescue and face the worst 7 years known to man. The 7 years before the millennial kingdom are known as the time of Jacobs trouble, and the great tribulation. And Israel will be at the center of events during this period of time. In other words, we know for certain, that Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis, Egypt, Turkey and all the other Israel hater will NOT succeed in defeating Israel. Though they try yet they shall fail. And any nation that opposes Israel brings on themselves a curse. Genesis chapter 12.
2609   NuttBoxer   2024 May 21, 7:15am  

Muslims have infiltrated our government to the level that they now see service to Saudi Arabia the same as service in the US..

2610   KgK one   2024 May 21, 10:24am  

Apparently Muslims can accept organ donation but can never donate. Most intolerant religion.
2611   gabbar   2024 May 21, 12:14pm  

WookieMan says

When both sides are wrong, what the hell are you gonna do to fix it?

Nothing, take advantage of it; I think our policy in ME is quite clever/machialevian. We may not need the oil but we don't want others to have it either.
2614   AmericanKulak   2024 May 22, 2:46pm  

Patrick says

Looks like the Imperial Throneroom Guard from Return of the Jedi
2615   PeopleUnited   2024 May 22, 7:29pm  

Patrick says

Progressive women are so hot. She, or maybe it’s a he? Is just teasing everyone by flashing so much sclera.

Go ahead google it.

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