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Effective Protest Against Bailouts


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2008 Feb 28, 1:22am   24,037 views  286 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (59)   💰tip   ignore  

protest

The NY Times illustrated nicely that most people are against paying their neighbor's mortgage:

But readers aren’t biting. More than 400 vehement reader comments on the Times’ site ran 20-to-1 against any taxpayer rescue - with fairness and basic economics the main objections

But we are not unified or effective in our protests. Just disgruntled savers bleating in the wilderness while our savings are forcibly transferred to those who did not save, and representative democracy keeps electing representatives of the banks. What would really work?

One reader suggestion is an online petition that all the housing blogs could post. It also might be time to actually hit the streets with real signs and pithy slogans. I could do the SF financial district at lunch some day.

Then there are boycotts, but what are we going to boycott? We're already boycotting bad lending and high prices.

Could we create an effective and public way to track politician sell-outs to the REIC?

Is it time for direct democracy, the ability of the people themselves to make the laws?

#housing

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207   northernvirginiarenter   2008 Feb 29, 5:48am  

Stockmarket behavior is so very creepy these past months, why haven't we had a single instance of old fashioned panic that sends er down to the trading halts. Its almost unnatural.

208   StuckInBA   2008 Feb 29, 5:49am  

If the Govt gets stuck with a bunch of REOs then wouldn't it distribute to everyone ? Yippie, free houses for everyone !

209   northernvirginiarenter   2008 Feb 29, 5:52am  

Evolution's direction is to an ever increasing state of complexity.

210   DinOR   2008 Feb 29, 5:53am  

"Demolish whole neighborhoods to keep prices high?"

Excellent point. If the public builders can't get their $10,000 tax CREDIT passed we'll be bulldozing block after block of never occupied homes for... "public safety reasons".

211   DinOR   2008 Feb 29, 5:56am  

sriram,

I think each species has a purpose (it's own survival) and a direction (the next meal) but after that I agree.

212   HeadSet   2008 Feb 29, 5:57am  

Evolution’s direction is to an ever increasing state of complexity

Not always. The direction is more didctated by survivability. Think of the parasites that have evolved ino little more than an attachment device and sex organs, and dark dwelling fish that have lost eyes.

213   DinOR   2008 Feb 29, 6:00am  

Hello Kitty,

Here's the really laughable part. Most of those guys (in spite of what they advertise) get their fees Up Front! Maybe they can help you, but more likely they can't.

From what I understand OIC (offer in compromise) are getting to be near impossible to negotiate! If you have any income at all, they'll take the full amount owed thank you.

214   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:00am  

Darwinism is same as anti-Einsteinism. Which in one sentence, “God play with a perfectly random dice”.

There is no such thing as randomness. Everything that transpires has a purpose.

Evolution could have been the device of Creation.

215   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:02am  

I think each species has a purpose (it’s own survival) and a direction (the next meal) but after that I agree.

The purpose of many species is for the culinary enjoyment of humanity, the master species. :)

216   HeadSet   2008 Feb 29, 6:02am  

I think each species has a purpose (it’s own survival) and a direction (the next meal) but after that I agree.

DinOr, you left out nookie. Every organism has a breed instinct.

Are you sure you were in the Navy?

217   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:02am  

Evolution’s direction is to an ever increasing state of complexity

I don't think so. Nature is perfectly elegant.

218   HeadSet   2008 Feb 29, 6:05am  

The purpose of many species is for the culinary enjoyment of humanity.

In the Pleistocene era, many species engaged in the culniary enjoyment of humanity.

219   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:06am  

In the Pleistocene era, many species engaged in the culniary enjoyment of humanity.

Those species extincted because their culinary domain lacked spices and sauces.

220   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:11am  

BTW, I thought humanity is only 5000 years old.

221   DinOR   2008 Feb 29, 6:12am  

Nookie? Sriram didn't mention that! I thought that came under "survival of the species...?" I'm sure there are species other than humans that engage in "recreational sex" (we just ASSUME they're trying to make babies!)

I think Peter has a point. Keeping some dwindling, failing species around when he's due for extinction may be doing more harm than good?

222   GammaRaze   2008 Feb 29, 6:12am  

"Nature is perfectly elegant."

How so? I see plenty of imperfections in nature.

Maybe you are looking at things the way they are and since there are no alternatives to compare with, assuming that the existing state is perfect?

223   StuckInBA   2008 Feb 29, 6:13am  

Those species extincted because their culinary domain lacked spices and sauces.

Are you saying that the damn meteor when it struck the Yucatan peninsula forgot to sprinkle spice as it fell ?

224   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:14am  

"Nature is perfectly elegant" is not the same as "Nature is perfect."

225   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 6:15am  

Are you saying that the damn meteor when it struck the Yucatan peninsula forgot to sprinkle spice as it fell ?

Yes. Cosmic spice. :)

226   HeadSet   2008 Feb 29, 6:45am  

Are you saying that the damn meteor when it struck the Yucatan peninsula forgot to sprinkle spice as it fell ?

I know you are joking, but isn't that meteor that hit Yucatan what killed the dinosaurs? The more recent Pleistocene human eaters (without spices) would be the smilodons, giant sloths, and other great carnivores we are thankful not to deal with today. Whatever evolved into Peter P might have ate them all.

227   StuckInBA   2008 Feb 29, 7:50am  

I know you are joking, but isn’t that meteor that hit Yucatan what killed the dinosaurs?

Yes, my joke was wildly inaccurate. BTW, this discussion reminds me of movie promos for 10,000BC. I suddenly feel the urge to see it now when it releases next week. Maybe I should eat some organic Vegan popcorns and drink caffeine free diet coke while watching it.

228   HelloKitty   2008 Feb 29, 8:42am  

that movie looks awsome 10k bc

imagine if you could go back in time to then and invent money, then fractional reserve banking - youd be king of tha world (or head of the federal reserve as its called now)

229   DennisN   2008 Feb 29, 9:44am  

10,000 BC? Are you talking about the film where R. Welch walks around in rags that amazingly enough barely cover her yet never fall off?

230   ozajh   2008 Feb 29, 9:57am  

In general, anyone who went back in time would have great difficulty surviving for more than a few hours.

And if you went back as an established downtime identity, statistically you would be almost certainly be an impoverished peasant burdened with enormous taxes.

Most people who imagine going back in time imagine going back to membership of a tiny, tiny elite.

That doesn't stop the idea being an SF staple, however.

One of the most interesting takes on the theme IMHO is the reader/contributor community that's grown up around the "1632" series (Eric Flint/David Drake), where the supposition is that a whole town somewhere in West Virginia gets transported back to the middle of the 30 Year's War.

The level of peer review means that the whole thing stays historically reasonable, but even with the resources of an entire (backwoods) town it's interesting to see what can and can't be done, and how SLOWLY things happen.

231   ozajh   2008 Feb 29, 10:04am  

While on the subject of bailouts, not to mention globalisation, it will be interesting to see what happens to the refuelling tanker deal now the USAF has had the temerity to pick a consortium with a non-US member.

You need to be aware that outside the US (and especially in SouthEast Asia) there is a lot of interest and not a little anger that the same financial gurus that were telling the likes of Thailand to suck it up 10 years ago are now screaming for bailouts when their OWN constituency gets it badly wrong.

232   SP   2008 Feb 29, 10:10am  

Peter P Says:
The purpose of many species is for the culinary enjoyment of humanity, the master species. :-)

Do you mean "To Serve Man", in other words...? :-)

233   HeadSet   2008 Feb 29, 10:13am  

In general, anyone who went back in time would have great difficulty surviving for more than a few hours.

And being burned as a witch when they discover your tooth fillings, casio watches, and oversize bodies. You would also look much younger for your age than the locals. Your strange insistence on sanitation, plus your innoculations will spare you from diseases locals around you get. The locals will wonder why so many of your women with children still have all their teeth.

234   Peter P   2008 Feb 29, 10:21am  

While on the subject of bailouts, not to mention globalisation, it will be interesting to see what happens to the refuelling tanker deal now the USAF has had the temerity to pick a consortium with a non-US member.

Didn't they choose the "US"-101 over the S-92?

235   B.A.C.A.H.   2008 Feb 29, 10:41am  

I agree with Headset that by the time our Adjustment is done, the sky won't have fallen down.

As Headset put it, we'll get back to living the way we should've been living all along, "... more like the 1950s-1960s lifestyles of one car per family, smaller houses, shared rides to work, home economics like meatloaf, etc. ."""

It sounds like a very high standard of living when compared to much of the world, including even an industrial place like Japan.

But there will be some differences between post-Adjustment living and what Headset described from the 50's and 60's: in the future, it will take two (or more) adults per household working outside the home full time to sustain it. And, there will be no illusion of a decent retirement, no taking for granted affordable health care, and outside of a working life of servitude to student loans, no path to college education for youth from working class families.

But other than that, it will be good. And at least the new economics will be fairer with respect to race and gender.

236   ozajh   2008 Feb 29, 1:10pm  

@Headset,

Exactly.

And a LOT of the plot points in the book series and commentary forum I mentioned above are about public health.

I must admit I have lurked on the forum, and been fascinated by the technical discussions on what it would be possible to do (and NOT do) if you had late-twentieth century general knowledge and things like school textbooks/encyclopediae, but seventeenth century materials and production methods (except for what happened to be in the town itself).

@Peter P,

All I know is that all the newspapers here are saying the Northrop Grumman/EADS consortium was the winner over Boeing, and that a lot of political hot air is being generated about the decision.

237   PermaRenter   2008 Feb 29, 1:39pm  

http://themessthatgreenspanmade.blogspot.com/

After more than seven years, today is my last day at Teradyne, Inc. (NYSE: TER), a major manufacturer of test equipment for the semiconductor industry.

I'd like to thank all the great people I've worked with over the years and I wish you all the best of luck in the future.

Since joining the company in January of 2000, time spent here has been mostly enjoyable - writing software for a world-class semiconductor test platform has had more than its share of excitement and challenges.

I can't say that the last year or two have been as enjoyable as some of the earlier ones. Maybe it was because I was distracted by other interests.

Maybe too it was because "perpetual fire drill" is no way to live and there's been a steady stream of talented engineers out the front door. Despite assurances heard by employees, the attrition rate doesn't look normal to me.

Yes, I know things are changing - good luck with that.

I really can't complain - Teradyne has been pretty good to me. I'm just tired of software and tired of Southern California - it's time to move on.

No, Not Alan Greenspan

Retirement in 2007 had been planned for many years. Sometime early last year I started counting down the days. I think the countdown started after we were shown a presentation from Broadcom (NYSE: BRCM) about how we software engineers need to be more productive. This would enable Broadcom to be more productive and the bottom line for both companies would swell and some of the profits would trickle down and the stock price would go up and we'd all live happily ever after.

With more irony than could be appreciated at the time, Alan Greenspan's picture was on the opening and closing slides and at first I was waiting for everyone to say, "Surprise!", but it never came.

Everyone was so serious.

Alan Greenspan's mug was there alongside a quote extolling the virtues of increased productivity and how we could play a larger role. That's when I started crossing off days on a calendar.

It seems that, along with many other engineers, I've been just a little cog in a big wheel that has contributed to the great borrow-and-spend consumption binge that characterizes our era. Being more productive to enable more businesses to profit from the manufacturing and sale of more consumer electronics that most people don't really need and have to borrow money to pay for, well, this just doesn't sound as good as it did a couple years ago.

And if I'd learned that Teradyne equipment tested chips that go into those ridiculous BlueTooth ear dongles that people wear like they're on the set of a Star Trek movie, I may have been long gone by now.

Stock Options, Stock Purchase, Stock Grants, Stock Buybacks

Coming from a mostly staid aerospace company in 1999, I was at first taken aback by all the stock trading that went on in cubicles up and down the aisles of the engineering department. That changed rather quickly as 2000 drew to a close.

Not surprisingly, the stock options I received when joining the company expired worthless, however, there were a few other opportunities to profit in company stock during my stay. But not too many.

A big part of the reason why my wife and I are able to retire now is shown in the chart below. The natural resource sector is the new bull market, though I continue to be surprised at how few people realize this. It's been going on for five years now and shows little sign of slowing down, though the ride can get pretty bumpy from time to time.

The stock purchase plan was pretty good at Teradyne in 2003, but aside from that, it's been many disappointing years in a row. I can't believe some people got laid off a few years back and had never sold any of their stock - rode it all the way up and all the way back down.

Technology is so last century.

No More SoCal, No More Software

We will be leaving the crowded environs of Southern California this spring, not likely to return soon or often. I can't imagine what driving on these freeways will be like in five or ten years - so many angry young drivers that seem to get more reckless every year. The young men in big pickup trucks are sure to get angrier as their career prospects dim along with the housing industry.

We'll be settling in an area where a quick mid-day break might result in a view such as this, rather than the sights and sounds of the 101 freeway with cars buzzing by at 80 miles an hour.

We'll be renting for a year. There's no hurry to buy any real estate anywhere in California this year.

My software programming career officially ends today. I'd complain about having to train Rammohan, Rajasekar, and Vijayakannan last year, but I'm mostly over that now.

That last thousand lines of code I wrote might require a little attention in the year ahead. I can't say that it received my undivided attention as this day drew closer, but it should be pretty good.

I learned a little more about maps (yes, Wikipedia has an entry for this too) and the multi-headed PinInfo hydra. I'm proud to say that I completed my entire career at Teradyne without having to understand what upside-down inheritance is. At yesterday's going-away luncheon, word came that I'm better off for it.

Anyway, this missive has gone on far too long already. I have to make that drive in one last time to do an "exit interview" and then it's official.

Goodbye Teradyne.

Full Disclosure: No position in TER or BRCM at time of writing

238   RaiderJeff   2008 Feb 29, 2:16pm  

So....Is there an effective way to protest against bailouts????

239   sun_kan   2008 Feb 29, 3:13pm  

not sure whether this has been posted before... here is a quick
analysis on the state of a particular wamu alt-a mortgage pool.

http://tinyurl.com/2lwcr9

240   SP   2008 Feb 29, 3:35pm  

Permarenter said:
"I’m proud to say that I completed my entire career at Teradyne without having to understand what upside-down inheritance is."

I liked the tone of that letter - but this was where the guy lost my vote. He began to sound like a typical old-fart who can't get his head wrapped around a new concept, so he gets all snobbish and "proud of not understanding it". As if his inability to deal with it is somehow a great loss for all mankind.

U/D inheritance is not a complicated thing, just requires a relatively open mind to let go of existing assumptions and see things slightly differently.

241   SP   2008 Feb 29, 3:44pm  

RaiderJeff Says:
So….Is there an effective way to protest against bailouts????

I think someone posted before, but the biggest missing link is a coordinated effort that pulls together the (allegedly) large number of weak dissenting voices into one strong, consistent and continuous message. We need either an old-fashioned messiah (with a combination of Ron Paul's conviction and MLK's appeal), or some form of viral social-web movement...

Right now, the pro-bailout camp is well-organized, well-connected and has a strong motivation to go out and make it happen. What does the anti-bailout camp have??? A few blog-forums and a lot of bile.

242   HelloKitty   2008 Feb 29, 10:00pm  

There HAS to be come anti tax non profit lobby that is anti bailout.

Like these people maybe.

http://www.ctj.org/html/ctjdesc.htm

243   Peter P   2008 Mar 1, 1:31am  

with a combination of Ron Paul’s conviction and MLK’s appeal

Ron Paul looks plenty appealing to me. My wife thinks I am crazy though.

Right now, the pro-bailout camp is well-organized, well-connected and has a strong motivation to go out and make it happen.

There will be a "bail-out for the homeowners" but there will be no bail-out for the homeowners. Don't worry. The Fed cares mostly about the banks. This is their job.

244   Peter P   2008 Mar 1, 1:32am  

What does the anti-bailout camp have???

The anti-bailout camp can calmly assess the situation and speculate accordingly.

Not investment advice

245   DinOR   2008 Mar 1, 1:51am  

SP,

I disagree. The "Chron" article had several noteworthy organizations (The Center for Tax Policy) for one and the OFHEO Director has been VERY vocal about taking a stand! Note that the builders did *not get their $10,000 buyer CREDIT implemented into the Stimulus Plan?

You're right in the regard that it's definitely uphill... but not insurmountable.

246   Peter P   2008 Mar 1, 7:06am  

We probably knew this already, but wisdom like this should be repeated:

"We’ll see what happens, but over the many years we’ve been in this business, we’ve noticed that, when all is said and done, things rarely end up as bad as they may seem. Even though there may be many valid reasons why a worst case scenario could evolve, it rarely does. Markets survive, economies survive, people make money and they lose money, markets move up and they move down, change is inevitable but that doesn’t have to mean disaster is coming. Most important is to keep an open mind and stay flexible. Allow for surprises and don’t stubbornly hold onto an idea because you think it’s right. The markets will tell us what’s happening and if a market changes, we’ll change with it."

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Nadler/feb292008B.html

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