patrick.net

Europe cannot possible compete with us in the long run because of their welfare state and high rate of taxation.

It is not difficult for the US to compete with the Third World. Wage is only one factor. Taxation is a big issue.

I've never tried to make some broad statement saying that America's best Mfr. days are ahead of her? Have I?

This is the very group think Randy H warned about when it comes to perceptions about mfr. in general. You can call the MexMafioso all you want, they're not turning out useable product. Now our daughters will likely never work in mfr. but that's why we did it (so they won't have to)

One is well employed for a state mental h/c facility and the other is finishing school. One thing that I DO regret is that cheap labor has done away w/ the RE-manufacturing business! Talk to anyone in tires. They can ship new ones here cheaper than we can re-tread (even for heavy trucks) so now otherwise useable casings stretch to the sky.

this argument assumes one important thing, that NAFTA was some kind of inevitable natural phenomenon. It was deliberate and its drafting was sold to the public as a benefit.

I am not a fan of NAFTA because it is a form of regulated "free" trade.

I get a clear feeling that most arguing against me are part of an older age group.

Huh? I had my first Saturn Return not long ago.

Peter, did it ever occur to you that your social/economic position was perhaps obtained (or maintained) by biased policies? You speak from this position of self-assurance that what you have is yours and obtained by divine ordinance (and this includes fancy degrees).

Huh? WTF?

Tax cut won't necessarily stimulate investment in business activities, if the other aspects of the society is f*cked up. Speculation is a much easier option for the rich to protect and grow their asset in this kind of environment. Why would I want to invest in producing anything (other than speculating on hard commodities that everyone MUST consume) with the biggest consumption machine running out of steam? Who is going to buy my stuff?

Tax cuts this time will precisely spur speculation, most probably in hard commodities. If President McCain gives more tax cut, I think my gold will head to $5000.

btw- Headset I supplied the sources but theyre in moderation-

I saw them. (Putting in multiple links gets you into moderation.) I thought you were saying that the run of the mill active duty soldier was not being paid. From my experience in the Air Force, I noticed that we got paid even when civil service did not. Your links refered to a soldier beng improperly discharged, promised benefits not being given to discharged soldiers, and a veto on increase in military pay. The first two are outrageous, I'll agree.

Tax cut won’t necessarily stimulate investment in business activities, if the other aspects of the society is f*cked up. Speculation is a much easier option for the rich to protect and grow their asset in this kind of environment.

Tax cuts include targeted credits and/or other incentives.

Tax cuts this time will precisely spur speculation, most probably in hard commodities. If President McCain gives more tax cut, I think my gold will head to $5000.

:)

Soldiers should be treated well. They are the heroes.

Oh I don't think we're going to have big issues w/ the returning vets. Can we get off the freak-a-thon for a minute? Firstly for each guy actually manning a trigger there are about 20 support people. Cooks, clerks, corpsman and admin. types that haven't seen a rifle since the wooden mock-up they carried in boot camp.

The incident in NC was a guy that had issues prior to joining and was given a Big Chicken Dinner (Bad Conduct Discharge) What do you guys want to send to Iraq? Altar-boys? The debate team? The DOD has made major strides in helping these guys adjust when they return to "the world". Can we all get through the day without discussing gold, bailing to foreign currencies and complete societal breakdown just once!?

TOB
As long as you can assume that those that argue against you are older, may I ask how you would describe yourself?

The SF Chronicle has the Bay Area DQ numbers, although they have not yet been released on the DQNews website. As the kids say, "its all bad"...
The total number homes sold in the nine counties that border the bay dipped below 4,000 for the second month in a row, according to DataQuick Information Systems, a La Jolla research group. In February, 3,989 new and resale houses and condos changed hands, down 36.7 percent from 6,305 from February 2007.
The median price was $548,000, down 11.6 percent from $620,000 a year ago, an a 17.6 percent drop from the peak median of $665,000 last June and July.
The median declined in every single Bay Area county in February, with all counties except Marin, San Francisco and Santa Clara recording double-digit drops. The swoon ranged from 22.3 percent in Sonoma to 2.8 percent in both Santa Clara and San Francisco.
Regarding foreclosures and SoCal, two words come to mind: critical mass. Coming soon to a BA county near you (and it ain't the bicyclists).

O.K, then let's have a thread devoted to:

Gold (and how good it's been to me)

The World as we know it has ended

Armed and Deranged Vets trying to steal your GOLD!

That way we can just get it over with?

Point taken. LOL!

who the fk cares anyway everyone here is posting under a pseudonym

I use my real name. And I'm sure everyone knows Patrick's full name. And furthermore, everone knows Peter P's full name is Peter Pangloss.

why not take the market perspective here- the American people are trying to get the best value for their cannon fodder.

Many of the most profitable companies treat their employees well.

Only the military can solve problems not solvable by Free Market.

And furthermore, everone knows Peter P’s full name is Peter Pangloss.

Huh?

Well, there's this author named Voltaire....

Richmond,

If I have to "take the shaft" I'll take the $1,200 one thankyouverymuch!

Guys, "The World as we know it" goes away at the end of every day. (It's not coming back) I don't believe young people (while frustrated) are disconnecting any more than the Woodstock Generation or any other for that matter. To be challenging this crowd (we're the whistle blowers, remember).... about being delusional about what our or our children's future will look like is preaching to the choir. Enough already.

The Original Bankster Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
"Huh? WTF?
honestly your pure ‘free market’ economics ethos is a bit disconcerting. At least online, you come off as a high-school student who read Atlas Shrugged so he can look smart to his friends."

I used to tell the friend who got me to read Atlas Shrugged the same thing. He related so much with the ideology he couldn't bring himself to recognize the imperfections of a free market, and he bought into the whole 'capitalists are the providers and producers' motto. I used to tell him that there is nothing noble about being an entrepreneur pursuing your own interests, it is only the fact that a society has a net benefit from capitalism that we tolerate the social costs which each unit of production incurs. Atlas Shrugged is somewhat makebelieve. It is a skewed commentary on fairness and morality. It is definitely one sided, and business people who hide behind its lessons to advance a selfish agenda are hypocrites. Atlas Shrugged stressed the concept of reciprocity, a concept which seems alien to the modern day capitalist.

It is a good book though and has some value in the ongoing debate between individual and social interests.

I used to tell him that there is nothing noble about being an entrepreneur pursuing your own interests, it is only the fact that a society has a net benefit from capitalism that we tolerate the social costs which each unit of production incurs.

Very well said. It is a mistake to glorify Capitalism.

It is just what it is.

(But it depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.)

Can we all get through the day without discussing gold, bailing to foreign currencies and complete societal breakdown just once!?

Hey, now. point taken, but if you take away gold, FCs and ARM-ageddon, what do we have left? Sushi and Fed-bashing? :-)

@Peter P,

I think he meant this.

I had a customer come in the shop a few days ago that needed a shaft for a machine. No biggie. It had a spline, a few seal diameters and a gear cut into it and no heat treatment.

When I was working on cars I was always amazed by what local San Jose machine shops could do. I built a Lotus 7 replica, which entailed scrounging up many driveline and brake parts. I scrounged the right rear end from a Ford Cortina GT but had to have it shortened on one side so the pumpkin was centered in the chassis. There was a guy down by the SJ airport that did this as a matter of course - both the housing and the related half-shaft - and he did it quickly and for some cheap price.

I have to admit I'm not a gloom-and-doomer myself. Somehow the English-speaking peoples have muddled through for millenia. See Churchill's 4 volume set and the recent volume 5 by Andrew Roberts. Thrift and paying attention got my grandparents through the Great Depression in good order.

Hey, now, let's keep it civil, not so personal, m'kay? Don't bash someone at least until you get to know him personally.

And then you can punch him in the face.

Kidding, of course.

Ok, "someone" just got un-invited to the next Patrick.net BBQ :-( .

DinOR :

The conventional wisdom in bubbleblogging world is exactly that. US is so F'ed up, all the jobs are going to be lost, we have nothing left and blah blah blah.

I am with you man. When have we said that we don't have any issues to solve ? When did we disagree that US needs to change some things significantly ? We are simply pointing out a few positives, and how things can turn around ... and oh man. When SP provided the some data, it's not to be trusted because it's from the Govt ?

Sometimes I feel that people use these blogs just to vent out. That's OK. So not all debates will lead to exchange of ideas and mutual learning.

Well sorry, but my biggest problem with the pure free market is that it "is what it is." It is a shame which is why I do believe that we should make it serve the society and not the other way around. I have a very specific ideology I developed in researching my thesis where I believe that the free market acts like a coral reef on the infrastructure and innovations brought about through the collective contributions of the society. I agree with Peter that it is what it is, as in the state of nature. You can't really put a value judgement on a war between ants and termites, it is what it is. As human beings aspiring to some sort of enlightenment and social progress, we have the ability to influence the natural (free market) environment. When regulation is done properly (no interference with free movement of prices, or unacceptable infringements on liberties) you get a generally free society with overall prosperity. Left unchecked capitalism starts to resemble any other failed totalitarian system.

The Original Bankster Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
"how about a Patrick.net paintball match?"

I am so there!

I agree with Peter that it is what it is, as in the state of nature.

Yep, that's what I meant.

When regulation is done properly (no interference with free movement of prices, or unacceptable infringements on liberties) you get a generally free society with overall prosperity.

That is the secret sauce that nobody has figured out yet.

Or people are on blogs because they are retired and like to debate topics of interest.

And the cure for high real estate prices is high real estate prices not government intervention.

I remember a speech that Jorge' W. gave back during the boom where someone in the audience asked if he was concerned about the run up in housing.

He stood there at the podium, swaggering from the neck up and said," If houses get too expensive, people just won't buy 'em."

Well, hmmmmm, geeeee, they seem to have lost that clip. I would love to see that on the evening news again.

IT is what it is.

Long ago we did a thread on "How did you stumble upon Patrick.net" and overwhelmingly it was due to our questioning the status quo.

"RE only goes up!" etc.

I guess what keeps me here is that I always sound "fresh" to the people I run into on a daily basis. Later today I'll work Voltaire and the origins of the word cretin into conversation and people might actually mistake me for being 'somewhat' sophisticated. ;0

Well, maybe everyone does have an inner self that is more extreme that what we choose to show, if we have to attach our names to our opinion permanently.

I think blogs allow people to be themselves. I won't say half the stuff I said here because I need to be politically correct, diplomatic, considerate or whatever in the real world where honest opinions may harm my relationships with other people. Imagine telling your friend who just bought a home 2 years ago that you think this was the stupidest thing you've ever heard? Of course you would congratulate him, patting on his back on what a great buy it was, bring gift to the house warming party and praising the "nice house" to no end.

Richmond,

I believe the original phrase is; "Nothing cures high prices quite like high prices".

Insert commodity ______.

What OO said.

Thanks. I thought it was something like that.

DennisN Says:
March 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
"Or people are on blogs because they are retired and like to debate topics of interest."

Or people who were right all along but were such a small minority to the general consensus that they sought out like minded people.

Oops, as usual DinOR beat me to the punch. That's why I looked for this site.

StuckInBA,

We're hopefully working past that. About a year back I couldn't even post at Ben's blog b/c the slightest upbeat comment drew scorn from the regulars. They no longer had perma-bull trolls to feed on so they started feeding on each other. No thanks.

Btw, I don't think it's limited to bubbleblogs either. I don't believe there's anything inherently wrong with any of us. If homes were well affordable and our payments were 28% of pre-tax income... this (nor other BB's) would exist! Why? To protest the high cost of gardening supplies?

There wouldn't be any common thread at all. I happen to agree w/ much of what OO, Peter P and others share in regards to our currency and the mess in general. I guess I just don't have the stomach to look at it every day any more.