patrick.net

klarek says

Patrick is being targeted for publicly calling them out on what they are and what they represent.

Yes, and he can still do this if he changes it to "real estate brokers" or "used home salesperson", although the latter is descriptive yet cumbersome.

It's clearly part of their push to keep their trademark, not an attempt to keep Patrick and others from writing about what a waste of space they are, but they are DEFINITELY trying to keep Realtor a trademark and not generic-ified like happened to asprin and many other trademarks.

I'd change your logo because it's not JUST real estate agents associated with the NAR that are idiots, and make sure any references to Realtors on your fixed pages (not forums) of your site say "Realtors(tm) and other real estate agents" if you want to keep referencing them directly. Also include disclaimers about not being associated with them.

Troy says

Expat says

I’ll sue you for that, too!

Sorry I’ve patented the act of suing for trademark violations, so you have no redress until my patent runs out in 2032.

And sorry to you, as I have patented the act of commenting on blogs. So your counter-patent to the redress is in clear violation of my patent.

Patrick, you should contact eff.org if you want a legal opinion and possibly assistance in fighting this.

In short, by using "realtor" instead of "REALTOR" with the circled R, you are at least potentially infringing on their trademark. With that, they can easily file a lawsuit (in their chosen jurisdiction), likely Texas or somewhere highly inconvenient/expensive for you. At best, you win and are out hundreds of thousands in legal fees allowing you to keep this site as is. At worst, you lose and have to pay damages plus pay your legal fees and then have to change the site. It's a lose-lose for you. It stinks that this is how it works, but that's how our legal system is.

I'll make sure I use the term "real estate agent" and not REALTOR(r) whenever I talk to anyone about real estate, so everyone else can get used to the term "real estate agent" and not the useless term "REALTOR(r)"

Realturd works for me, maybe I'l switch to "house sales person" when I feel like it.

TechGromit says

No one could reasonably think I am using their logo to associate myself with them when saying “What realtors won’t tell you”. So I think it’s fair use, or “nominative use”.

It’s your funeral, can I at least convince you to consult an lawyer before you commit financial suicide. Lawyers can make the unreasonable completely reasonable. If they can get a multimillion dollar award for a lady that burns herself with a obviously hot cup of coffee, I think they can prove copyright infringement in this case.

Did you ever read the real story on this?

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

At least it's entertaining. The Post "Mortgage rates scream do not buy" has 10,000 views in 5 months, this topic has over 5,000 views in 21 hours.

ch_tah says

In short, by using “realtor” instead of “REALTOR” with the circled R, you are at least potentially infringing on their trademark.

OK, I added a capital R and the trademark symbol to my logo. Now I will clarify the text of my crash page to make it clear I am talking about THEM and that I am in no way associated with them.

Now I will clarify the text of my crash page to make it clear I am talking about THEM and that I am in no way associated with them.

That would be boastful and self-serving.

Start a legal defense fund. The one cool thing about lawyers is that there is always a bigger and nastier one that can be bought to rip the other side apart.

I updated my crash.html pages to say:

1. I am in no way associated with them, thank God.
2. They made me add the (R) mark.
3. They are worse than non-Realtor(R) agents because they actively seek to corrupt our laws with lobbying and bribes, er, campaign donations.

I also removed all ambiguity. I am talking exactly about Realtors(R) at all times now, not agents in general, though the majority of agents are Realtors(R).

OK, trademark complaint resolved. Now it should more clearly be just a case about whether I am allowed to use freedom of speech to point out their harmful effect on the country.

This could be the start of something Big. How much press do these folks want?

ch_tah says

In short, by using “realtor” instead of “REALTOR” with the circled R, you are at least potentially infringing on their trademark.

OK, I added a capital R and the trademark symbol to my logo. Now I will clarify the text of my crash page to make it clear I am talking about THEM and that I am in no way associated with them.

I think you still have the mark wrong. It is all caps, not just the first letter. REALTOR
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4006:udifjj.5.63

You still should contact someone for legal advice.

Katy Perry says

This could be the start of something Big. How much press do these folks want?

Picking on him right after his article hit the opinion press rounds wasn't very bright. Better for the creeps to lie low and pray the populace remains in the dark, but their criminally complicit nature causes them to miss a beat here and there.

Expat says

Reuters uses “realtor”. Please look at this story.

Well they are going to get an inboxful from nar.

Dear Patrick, Kill the piggy. Michael

Kill the piggy? What does that mean?

Nomograph says

larrypatrickmaloney says

it’s time for you to get schooled on the Constitution.

Agreed. This is not a first amendment issue any more than if someone stole some code Patrick wrote and used it for their own program. Patent and trademark protection are not only in the U.S. Constitution, but date all the way back to the Magna Carta.
larrypatrickmaloney says

Since you are more liberal, I would expect you to cry for your first amendment rights.

Easy there, BaloneyPony. Your so-called “conservative” buddies on this forum cried censorship over Patrick’s ‘ignore’ button. If you try to turn *everything* into a liberal v. conservative issue, you just sound like even more of an idiot than you already do most of the time.

My point was that typically, a leftish person will complain about their first amendment rights , without truly understanding or knowing the constitution. Which seems to be the case here, and it seems you agree with that analysis.

PS: I never complained about the "ignore" button.

PSS: Thanks for calling me names "Nomograph". You are safely hiding behind anonymity. At least I am willing to publicly reveal my identity, which gives me credibility. You, not so much.

I'd change it to "What the Real Estate Industry won't tell you" and call it a day. Life is too short...

rowemoore says

I’d change it to “What the Real Estate Industry won’t tell you” and call it a day. Life is too short…

Agree, just make the logo a bit taller and add room for a second line of text.

Please be careful before getting too excited about using an LLC for legal and liability protection. I'm not a lawyer but I can tell you the laws around single member LLC's and asset protection are hit or miss. And LegalZoom is great but they aren't lawyers so can't answer this question for you.

Also, since this action was done before you form an LLC, the protection wouldn't apply anyway as far as I know. Kind of like getting auto insurance after a car wreck.

Good luck and keep up the great work!

Patrick has been exposing a lot of shame in the real estate industry. I have been in real estate so long that I have see good professional service in order to build a referral business change to over promise and under deliver; focus on your commission and not service; advertise for volume clients rather that a referral based business. Too many people became licensed because they had good sales person skill and wanted to ride the wave of high real estate commissions. Many of them can't do math. I am continuously shocked by the ethics I see and gray area that is taken advantage of at the expense of clients.

Some of us old school professional agents dislike competing with agents that we know have inferior experience and ethics. It's very frustrating for us that a buyer and seller cannot easily distinguish a slick talking agent from a true professional. I was raised in a real estate family, we had a family run office and none of us drove new luxury cars. We worked hard and made an honest living but we were not rich; our commission was 2nd to good service. Because of this we often sold the same home multiple times over a 35 year period because the community trusted us.

I think its a terrible time to buy a house but agents will make a case based on low prices and rates....what good is that if the knife is still dropping.

Would you be sued for libel or trademark infringement? Not sure what "law" you are breaking, other than hurting the poor widdle NAR's feewings.

Sounds like a competent attorney would be able to defend you, and the negative publicity would make the NAR look ridiculous.

I wish I were an attorney, I would take your case pro bono.

Patrick,

So it has come down to this. This is the latest trend in our Corporate Fascist country. The "Citizens United" decision by the Supreme Court has cemented power and control of Corporations over individual citizens and our government more solidly. Now that Corporations are considered "people" each one of them has the same rights you and I allegedly do. Only this is a case of "separate but equal" and Corporations are now "first among equals."

This is an example of our two-tiered legal system. There is one legal system for those who have lots of money to piss away on frivolous or malevolent lawsuits that serves the very rich and the Corporations. The other legal system is for the rest of us who don't have enough money to be in the "club of the rich and powerful." The first legal system supercedes the second legal system. When Corporations and extremely wealthy people in the first legal system bump heads with those who don't have unlimited resources in the second legal system, the first legal system ensures that those of us in the second legal system get no justice.

I want to echo what another poster said above. So many in this thread are not only willing but happy to roll over and let the Corporate Fascists take all their rights away (if they exist anymore). They are too ignorant to understand the massive shift in power over the last 40 years that doesn't favor the little people like them but vastly favors the super rich and the Corporations. They are willfully ignorant and will continue to vote and speak out against their own interests. They will argue in vigorous support for Corporate Fascist ideas like privatizing Social Security, destroying the new health care law, eliminating Medicare, eliminating Medicaid, eliminating Unemployment benefits, eliminating the progressive tax system so the rich and Corporations can continue to siphon all of this country's wealth into their vaults, dismantling of all regulations so that the super rich and Corporations can continue to rape the people and environment of this country to further enrich themselves, increasing "security" screenings of every kind including warrantless wire tapping, advocating water-boarding ignoring the Geneva Convention, eliminating General Assistance (aka welfare), and other such policies and ideas that will only further solidify the super rich and Corporate control of our country and its citizens. They advocate all of these ideas and policies that would ultimately destroy them and yet they don't belong to "the club" of the super rich and Corporations.

Basically we have turned into a nation of rude and nasty idiots in our torture chambers being blindfolded and hog tied while whistling to the happy tunes that the Corporations play for us.

And you know what? I'm starting to believe it's time we hand this country over completely to the Corporate Fascists and allow the idiots to reap their consequences. Sure, we who know better will suffer along side them. But these rude and nasty idiots don't learn anything unless they are personally inconvenienced, made uncomfortable, or experience pain themselves. They are fundamentally incapable of empathizing with anyone else's suffering because they have become selfish, rude, and nasty idiots after being manipulated by the Corporate Fascists. Yes, I'm starting to believe it's time to give them what they want, a Corporate Fascist State where unless you are super rich or a Corporation you not only don't matter, you are kicked to the curb, you are forced to live with the scraps after they have consumed all of the best that this country has to offer, and you have no recourse because the courts and lawyers are bought and paid for by the Corporate Fascists.

These people are mostly miserable anyway. Rude, nasty, and ignorant people could never be happy anyway. And once this country has become a fully Corporate Fascist State and they get what is coming to them for supporting policies and ideas that took everything away from them and live in the misery that they had a hand in creating, they will rejoice at first. When the hangover sets in, they won't be so happy.

The rest of us wiser folk will prepare for the worst and survive the fool's paradise until the ignorant, rude, and nasty idiots finally crack and overthrow their oppressors.

Or, you can fight for what is right risking everything you own and will ever own in the future to fight for these willfully igorant, rude, and nasty idiots who will never express any gratitude for your efforts.

It's your choice.

Yes, I've become that cynical from examining evidence that the willfully ignorant, nasty, and rude idiot masses are Hell bent on self-destruction and I've come to the conclusion that we should leave them to their chosen fates.

I have dealt with several realtors. I have found that there are some honest ones, but they do look out for their best interests. Robert Kiwosake says if you find a realtor that looks out for your best interests, that is the one to deal with. I find that if a realtor knows that you trust him or her, they will screw you big time. My advise to one and all is never to trust anyone with your money.

OK, trademark complaint resolved.

Your logo with the red house and hand with the Pin still clearly says, " What realtors won't tell you". I don't think a fine print declaimer at the bottom of your first page is going to cut it. You need to change your logo, this is the first thing public see's when they log into Patrick.net.

Patrick, I'm guessing that your sense of fairness/unfairness prompted you to start this list. That's a great outlook, in general. For this issue, however, that mindset isn't relevant. I'm concerned that if you don't shift to a lower paradigm (the realm of law), you'll unwittingly become a target (even with your new capital R and trademark logo--which, as others pointed out, still doesn't meet their requirements).

At one point, you'd written: "No one could reasonably think I am using their logo to associate myself with them when saying “What realtors won’t tell you”. So I think it’s fair use, or “nominative use”." Your use of "reasonably" smacked me in the forehead. Since when, I wondered, does "reasonable thinking" have anything to do with the law? Since when does the law see as relevant what people "could" conclude, if they were being fair-minded?

Experience with the law trumps speculation, and I've had some. In those situations, I was often outmatched in power. I saw with my own eyes that if a hair can be split with legal verbiage, it will be split (despite how deeply it may violate any ordinary grasp of reality). The bigger half of that "split," will then fall on the side of the party with the most clout. [It sounds trite when I write it, but if you've lived through it, then you know it's anything but trite.]

To "win" in legal matters, I saw that parties threw out the kind of principled thinking one might use for personal interactions, replacing that approach with maneuvering for power. Agreeing to this can at times seem so degrading, however, that one is compelled to walk away (aka defeat by default), which I definitely chose on occasion. It was my way of "winning."

Decades ago, I lived in a cabin on the back side of Half Dome in Yosemite--high, wild mountain country, outside park limits. A bear once came onto the house deck. Ever been really close to a bear's stunning brute power? (Think of a giant bear as big pockets legally poised against you.) Back then, I could have argued: "Hey bear, no reasonable person could conclude you have a right to scare me, nor to deprive me of the use of my deck, because I'm not on your land." Of course, considering the vastly unequal distribution of power between the bear and me, such arguments would have been idiotic.

I let the bear hog my deck for a bit, and didn't try to tangle with it. I also didn't fret about whether it was "fair" or "reasonable" that this had happened, or could happen again. The fact is that the cabin was close enough to bear habitat that there was always a probability of a bear wandering off its turf. (It would not be a stretch to say that since you write about reeltors, you "live near them.") That one incident quickly showed me that my job was to take responsibility for my choice by checking the deck before I walked outdoors, by not leaving food on the deck, etc. (Similarly, your first threatening letter may prove to be drastically instructive.) When faced with an uneven playing field where power determines everything, the smartest thing to do often is to avoid any actions which which might attract the wild beasts.

As for your admirable mindset of fairness, I see that as best utilized for private issues between two equal parties who practice humane thinking. This legal issue is different, and is also between two decidedly unequal parties. Hence, leave big picture thinking behind, and confine yourself to thinking inside the legal box (including making your newest changes match what the lawyer stipulated). The law = "the rules of the game," and the game is rigged on behalf of those with the most clout. The only "reason" which counts is reason which narrowly conforms to how the laws are written (and guess who influences how the laws are written). Assuredly, the letter-issuer well knew this before writing you.

Some have suggested you get legal counsel, which couldn't hurt (except financially). Yet, I'd be flabbergasted if any attorney suggested you had a whisper of a case. In my view, the necessity of changing your logo is a fait accompli. As for how you change the logo, it might be kinda funny to re-word it to say "reeltors" -- as in "reeling in hapless victims." There's little that's real in what they do, so consider it an improvement--and anyway, dealing with reeltors leaves one reeling! Of course, this is a take-off on your technique of re-wording headlines to tell the "real" story, while also providing welcomed humor. With your great sense of humor, you might come up with something even better.

Don't let this get you down, Patrick. You gotta laugh at things that are "done deals," sometimes.
I'm glad you do what you do. Thanks for including us in this, 'cuz the discussion has been fascinating.

Hmmm, I can see a changed logo. Am I missing the point of your post, Gromit?

This is how I see it. Perhaps I need to clear my cache?
I cleared my cache, far as I can tell it the logo remains unchanged.

OK now I see it updated, it clearly wasn't before.

I only hope that's enough to satisfy them.

I look forward to the day when Realtards are working in a real job. Maybe something like fastfoods or patting down 80-year-old women at the airports.

Isn't the trademark already diluted? Realtor = real estate agent in my memory bank. I honestly don't think NAR when I see "realtor", REALTOR or Realtor. I ONLY think NAR when I see the trademark symbol after it and probably not each time even then. I find it ironic that you respond doing precisely what the NAR prefers you discontinue doing. Why allow this to become an issue? Refer to them as real estate agents.

Isn't the larger message still served? Yes. Besides, this type of thing is a side track. There are many variables that went into causing the real estate bubble - lower interest rates, relaxed credit standards, the pool of investors eager to buy into these falsely rated mortgage bundles. The fraud that went on from mortgage companies to the fact these sub-primes could be rated so highly. I blame Wall Street far and away more than a real estate agent who just rode this wild wave into shore.

I updated my crash.html pages to say:
1. I am in no way associated with them, thank God.

2. They made me add the (R) mark.

3. They are worse than non-Realtor(R) agents because they actively seek to corrupt our laws with lobbying and bribes, er, campaign donations.
I also removed all ambiguity. I am talking exactly about Realtors(R) at all times now, not agents in general, though the majority of agents are Realtors(R).
OK, trademark complaint resolved. Now it should more clearly be just a case about whether I am allowed to use freedom of speech to point out their harmful effect the country.

Patrick. Do you think that a Non - Realtor (R) agent would be a better choice for a potential home buyer? Or is your issue with the Realtor (R) agent just the lobbying and influence. Are there any advantages or disadvantages of one vs the other for a home buyer or seller? In the small picture of just buying or selling a house.

larrypatrickmaloney says

Patrick,
So it’s time for you to get schooled on the Constitution.
Since you are more liberal, I would expect you to cry for your first amendment rights.
Now here is the funny part, you aren’t “protected” for free speech from the lawyers.
The first amendment is to protect your political free speech, from the GOVERNMENT.
That doesn’t include private individuals or organizations.
If you were to claim something that isn’t true, publicly, you wouldn’t be protected under free speech. You would be guilty of
slander or defamation. Which is actionable in court.
I didn’t bother to read the whole letter they sent you, but it’s totally possible you have to comply with their wishes.
Just cause you have a blog post, and write things publicly, doesn’t mean you can write whatever you choose.
You should read the constitution sometime, It will make things more clear for you.

You should read the Constitution yourself Larry. Then, get someone to interpret it for you. For the most part, what Patrick had on his site was fine and was likely fully protected by the first amendment, since the government would be involved here. The reason why the government is involved is that the lawyers would be using state and/or federal laws to bring suit against Patrick, and these laws are subject to the Constitution, specifically the first amendment. The only part you have right is about defamation, but fortunately the truth is a defense to that. I'm not sure why you would be so condescending when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Can't you just host the site in some country where Realtors isn't trademarked?

If the Oxford English Dictionary has already begun listing "realtor" as a generic word for "estate agent", I say host the site in the UK.

Still, replacing the "realtor" in your logo with "real estate agent" is probably the safest thing to do.

Lawsuit issues aside, the NAR should be ecstatic that a word they invented has become generic enough to merit a dicitonary entry. Human being work their entire lives to leave something behind in popular culture; how many individual personal names have entries in the OED? If I knew that the only lasting accomplishment in my life would be to contribute a single word to the English language, I'd consider it a life well spent.

I'm sure they would look pretty stupid if they proceeded with some type of action against you AFTER you changed their name to REALTOR(R).

In a disclaimer at the bottom of all pages could/should be stated very clearly that the word ASSHOLE in front of that trademark is your personal opinion, to which you are entilted.

How about the realtors claim that homeownership is an investment without a SEC securities license?

Vise Grip
Cresent
Skill
All of these are registered Company names. And they are used otherwise.

Everyone calls a pair of adjustable jaw, spring locking pliers, "Vise Grips" - no matter what company made them. You never ask for "adjustable jaw spring locking pliers" .. you just say, "hand me the vise grips". Vise Grip is a company. My vise grips are made by Sears and say Craftsman on them.

Everyone calls a screw to adjust, smooth faced hand wrench, a "Cresent wrench" - no matter what company made them. I actually have some Cresent wrenches, but Craftsman too.

Everyone calls a portable, electric, worm gear driven, 7-1/4" power hand saw, a "Skill saw" - no matter what company made the saw. "My Skill saw is a Makita".

Same with Channel Lock, Bondo, and I'm sure you folks know some examples. The common name for all things in a catagory are the company that may have started the line, but that does not mean anything anymore.

Everyone calls a usedhouse, lie-to-sell, pimp-their-sister-for-a-buck, no good rotten MFer, a real tor. REwhore, REturd, REpuke, REliar, REscum, REmaggot ...

Pretty simple. (not legal advice)

Personally, I think they spelled it wrong! You better grab the correct spelling, and TM it. The correct spelling is REALATOR tm noone says real-tor, they say real-a-tor. I think that would beat it -ahahah. Seek legal advice before use! My gift to you for all your efforts. Then for your graphic you need that picture of Julio Araracio, to show what happens to over zealous mata-reala-tor's! Then again, that might get the matador's [NAM] after you! You'll know when it's time to fold. This is just the first round, means nothing. I would ignore all future correspondence, show you existing hand to a competent lawyer, and play your hand accordingly. Then again... all stupid advice, when NAR's corrupt eyes are reading this blog, knowing full well you got and understood the rhetoric.

***** This is for the prying eyes of the almighty NAR. It's evident that Patrick is dealing with a tit-less wonder, pulsing testosterone, or a male with a very tiny pee-pee, and no testosterone, as law is all about ego. Now, the fact that your skill set only elevated [if it's possible to view your diminished position] you to a NAR staffer... Oh well, pity ran out for you. NAR must realize that they are a cluster-fuck of incompetents, from the head realtard, to the bottom feeding, couldn't get a job anywhere else ambulance chasers. An analyst anywhere, would have been fired many times over, if he/she was wrong as many times as Yun! This moron is a flaming IDIOT! All NAR has left; is propaganda. A 9 pound monkey would know that the cesspool has far to go before it is completely drained. Infected by the rancorous, vile contaminants dumped in it by NAR, MBA, Fed Govt., Investment Banking, and dim-whited, bottom of the food chain REALTORS, there is nothing left to suck out. And this is why this pathetic orgy is clinging to the last great bastillon... Mortgage Interest Deduction! Loose that, and your useless little cult is cooked. None of you would know what it was like to actually WORK for a living. And, who would hire you? I can't think of any successful, viable, profitable businesses, that make their living from peddling absolute USELESS INFORMATION!

Paying to become a Realtor is as stupid as buying a distributor license for Monavie. Or as stupid as buying an online store from 2 by 2.

They all sound like ponzi pyramid schemes to me.

Pampers... diapers.... Same thing...
Same with real estate agents, realtors.... it's all the same.

They are trying to prevent the inevitable. They will lose their trademark. It'd be awesome if Patrick was the one to cause their downfall :)