patrick.net

Taking "realtor" off will definitely stop them. They are not stupid (at least their attorneys aren't). They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit. If you refer to them as real estate agents, you have the same message without the potential trouble.

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

In the entire world, only in USA, we pay 6% as commission.

This isn't exactly true. In Japan, buyer and seller each pay 3% of the purchase price, plus 50,000 yen (about $600), plus consumption tax (5% on top of the previous two items). In my case, the total commission was about 7.2%, 3.6% of which was paid by me.

Bap33 says

Pride can be very expensive

It's a core message of my site though: Realtors(R) have a whopping conflict of interest with their clients. And they're organized to corrupt our laws to ensure they continue to profit at the expense of their clients. It's pretty clear they are anti-democratic, anti-free-market, and now anti-free-speech. How could I not oppose such organized evil?

Here's a great quote from their own site:

The life of a lobbyist is one that not many people understand. Charged with persuading members of the government to enact legislation that would benefit their group—in this case the associations of Realtors®—lobbyists spend their days attempting to influence the outcome of legislation or administrative decisions.

We all understand it perfectly well I think. It's simply corruption: using money to twist laws to "benefit their group" at the expense of everyone else.

BTW, they use "Realtors®" exactly the same way I have it in my logo now. I don't think they can object to format any more.

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?

what do they have to lose.

I agree with Katy Perry. Prepare for the lawsuit, as per multiple suggestions here. On the street, the perpetrator sometimes stops seeing that you enacted phase 1 (you believe the attack is with intent to kill and you know what to do), phase 2 (your posture is impenetrable and threatening), or phase 3 (you evaded or deflected the first attack confidently and with no injury sustained). Yet you have to be ready to go to phase 4 (ruthless all-out counterattack). Now is the time to line up your ducks. Identify and befriend their natural enemies, ASAP.

Katy Perry says

what do they have to lose.

Are You Missing the Real Estate Boom?: The Boom Will Not Bust and Why Property Values Will Continue to Climb Through the End of the Decade - And How to Profit From Them

David Lereah
Crown Business; 1ST edition (February 22, 2005)

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

#1 It's a waste of their time and money. You don't fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don't fight.
#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.
#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

ch_tah says

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

#1 It’s a waste of their time and money. You don’t fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don’t fight.
#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.
#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

again
What do they have to lose. really?
i'll only be suprised if they drop this. IMO
they may not want the attention on this if they end up looking bad to the sheeple people.
Press release anyone?

ch_tah says

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?

what do they have to lose.

#1 It’s a waste of their time and money. You don’t fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don’t fight.

#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.

#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

Let's see. Let's assume this site has an order of 100,000 readers. Given its quality and word-of-mouth marketing in full swing, it is reasonable to expect it to go up to 1,000,000 in the next year or two. Let's assume that reading this site results in delay/cancellation of real estate purchase plans, accelerated strategic foreclosures etc. for 80% of readers. Let's further assume that average value of such unfulfilled real estate transaction is $300,000. And let's take the real estate agent commission as 6%. 1,000,000*0.8*300,000*0.06 = $14,400,000,000.

It's $14 billion in potentially lost commissions folks! Now, granted, this site is not the only one "telling the truth", and readers numbers growth is speculative. Yet still, even if we dilute the numbers by 1/10 the influence, 1/10 the growth, and 1/10 the "goodwill value", it's still order of $10M.

Makes perfect sense to spend couple million dollars to protect at least 10, doesn't it? They don't even have to win the case, they only need to strangle the Patrick's ability to maintain the quality site. With quality down, the readers will depart. Seen it done over and over to sites I subscribe to. The attack is for real, take it to the bank.

Patrick, the socialist himself.... Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh... Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

andrewl570 says

Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism

wat

Fear not the heathen NAR.

Isaiah 54:17 (New King James Version)

17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the LORD.

I thought this was a timely article since this thread has been examining trademarks and copyright. Homeland Security has seized 80 websites last week alone for violating trademarks and copyright. I didn't even know that the Department of Homeland Security has this as one of their duties and/or mandates. I guess Homeland Security has their fingers in everything....go figure. http://music-mix.ew.com/2010/11/30/homeland-security-rap-blog/?hpt=T2

Here is one of the web sites that they seized http://www.onsmash.com/

don says

When you are up against the Big Guy, expect to lose. There was a restaurant in Santa Cruz CA called McDharmas. It was fast food, but it was a healthy food alternative to the crap served at the corporate McDonalds chain. A fight ensued. Guess who won?
http://www.dharmaland.com/history/sentinel.html

Not really the same thing. They didn't just criticize McDonald's, they used a very similar-sounding name in order to gain customers and profit. I can't open an electronics store and call it "Best Buy", because I would be unfairly profiting from Best Buy's reputation. But if I want to criticize Best Buy on my blog, and use their name in the context of making true statements about that company, then it is protected speech.

Now if Patrick were to say, "I am a realtor - buy a house from me", when he is not a realtor, that would clearly be an improper use of their copyrighted name. But to say, "There are things that realtors won't tell you", is not the same issue. He is criticizing them, not trying to steal business away from them.

Also, where are people getting that Patrick used the realtor "mark"? There is a realtor logo, which looks like a stylized "R". I do not and never have seen such a mark on Patrick's site.

andrewl570 says

Patrick, the socialist himself…. Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh… Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

Trademark law allows individuals to profit from intellectual property that they created. That is the exact OPPOSITE of socialism.

ch_tah says

Taking “realtor” off will definitely stop them. They are not stupid (at least their attorneys aren’t). They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit. If you refer to them as real estate agents, you have the same message without the potential trouble.

They'll file a lawsuit if they can do it - but by removing the realwhore term and logo, you take the wind out of their sales.

What's your goal, here? if it's to challenge a dying organization desperate for any method possible to maintain their stranglehold on house sales, you're just a guy who has created a popular site that they can use as an example of how powerful they are,

If it's to continue fighting the good fight, spreading the word about the housing crisis and why now isn't a good time to buy... use the word "agent." We're all smart enough to connect the two terms.

Have you spoken with an atty yet? You need their advice more than you need ours. Their lawyers are drawing up papers as we speak (not realizing that they look increasingly desperate as a result).

Patrick,

I like your idea of paying a real estate "expert" by the hour for their expertise. How about we talk about this and possible other ideas on a "Patrick Forum"? I think you've got an opening to change the industry during this current situation. The industry needs to be changed!

I obtained my real estate license because I was so frustrated by a Realtor during one of my home purchase transactions. My feeling was if she could do real estate - anyone could. I was right, it's not brain surgery, it just takes the time and desire to do the coursework and pay for the tools. I've more than made up for the time and money put out by the savings I've earned on my own transactions.

And, I agree with the 2 posts above - don't fall into the big guys trap!

-S

S says

I like your idea of paying a real estate “expert” by the hour for their expertise. How about we talk about this and possible other ideas on a “Patrick Forum”?

Welcome to the party. You're on the forum now. Whatcha wanna talk about?

S says

Patrick,
I like your idea of paying a real estate “expert” by the hour for their expertise. How about we talk about this and possible other ideas on a “Patrick Forum”? I think you’ve got an opening to change the industry during this current situation. The industry needs to be changed!
I obtained my real estate license because I was so frustrated by a Realtor during one of my home purchase transactions. My feeling was if she could do real estate - anyone could. I was right, it’s not brain surgery, it just takes the time and desire to do the coursework and pay for the tools. I’ve more than made up for the time and money put out by the savings I’ve earned on my own transactions.
And, I agree with the 2 posts above - don’t fall into the big guys trap!
-S

What expertise?

I have a friend of mine who works for a title company. She tells me Realtors just "hang around" during closing waiting for their commission.

gameisrigged says

andrewl570 says

Patrick, the socialist himself…. Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh… Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

Trademark law allows individuals to profit from intellectual property that they created. That is the exact OPPOSITE of socialism.

Sounds like a Teatard. Spouting off nonsense and calling all things "Socialism". Books are your friends! :)

It's an interesting quandry. All realtors are real estate agents, but not all real estate agents are realtors. The specific phrase the NAR seems to be taking issue with is the logo, which states: "What Realtors (r) won't tell you." If this opinion statement is generally perceived to to be true with the sub-grouping known as realtors, does it matter if it is also perceived to be true with respect to all real estate agents? If we assume a realtor will not tell you X and assume a real estate agent will not tell you X with X being constant, then both of the following statements are true:
1) What realtors won't tell you...
2) What real estate agents won't tell you...

Most members of the public are not real estate agents and probably have little dealing with people in the real estate business. If you re-phrased it to: "What real estate agents won't tell you," members of the public may believe that you are not criticizing realtors, but only real estate agents because they do not realize all reators are real estate agents. Interesting, if you were singling out realtors because of their political lobbying group and what they won't tell you, it would be seem to be improper to generalize to include people that are not in the sub-group regardless of whether or not some in the larger group would not tell you some of the same things.

Man..too much abstract theory. I think if you read the website, you find this is a place for public commentary on matters of the public's interest. Wouldn't an attempt to quell public debate on issues of real estate and the real estate lobbiests be subject to an anti-SLAPP?

OK, I sort of give up. Now I criticize "agents" in general, because all buyer's agents on the commission system do have a conflict of interest with their clients. Reload the page and you'll see the logo says "What your agent won't tell you".

I also removed all mention of the ugly and hated Realtor(R) word from text I wrote, except for this line:

"The cost of selling a house is kept unfairly high because of the Realtor® lobby's corruption of US legislators."

Which is a provable fact.

Can we say "realtor" or must we refer to them in the formal?
(example)
"I listed my house with a realwhore, received substantially less money that I would have because I had to pay ransome."

Just curious.

very interesting thread IMO though

Katy - it's winter. Don't those things get cold?

gameisrigged says

andrewl570 says

Patrick, the socialist himself…. Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh… Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

Trademark law allows individuals to profit from intellectual property that they created. That is the exact OPPOSITE of socialism.

Trademark is not natural law. It is government enforced monopoly. How would free market take care of knock offs? People like name brands and quality. People seek out name brands and they would reward a good quality brand by purchasing their products... and guess what, if the knock off is a better quality, then the knock off should be rewarded for being a quality competitor. www.mises.org is your friend; or try www.lewrockwell.com. do some research on copyright and trademark from the true leaders of freedom.

andrewl570 says

www.mises.org is your friend

::eyeroll::

and Lew Rockwell is full of shit, eg:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north790.html

Gary North there is one bad actor -- we're talking Christian Reconstructionist here.

It's all one big of Paultard/Misean/Christianist wank there, to go with the wank you wrote above.

This all reminds me of a meeting at Schwab in San Francisco I was at maybe ten years ago. The senior vice president had some ideas for changing a Schwab web site. The ideas were really just awful, making it into an online game-show format. Ugh. Insulting to the intelligence of the customer.

So the SVP presents these ideas in a meeting of 100 people and asks for feedback. Silence. We all just look at each other uncomfortably for a while. Finally, this big red-haired English guy stands up in back and says "It sucks!" and sits down again. That guys was my hero at work, for about a year.

Then he was fired. They found some pretext because he was a loud mouth and said things like that a lot. He had a hard time getting a good job again. But you know, his comments were really worthwhile. And Schwab benefitted, because they didn't implement that awful idea for that website.

elliemae says

Katy - it’s winter. Don’t those things get cold?

It was like low 70's in LA today. but I'll try and find a sweater.

.... a rose by any other name .......

Good story Patrick. He probably wouldn't have earned the same level of respect from his peers had he conveyed his opposition to the idea in a more diplomatic manner, but he might have been able to voice his opposition to the project while still preserving his job. Corporate culture is really feckless. Then again this guy would probably be succesful and also happier outside of that culture.

Nomograph says

Trademark, patent, and copyright protection are EXPLICITLY written

Nope. Trademarks are, for one, eternal, and thus trademark law was created via the general powers of the Commerce Clause.

OK, I sort of give up. Now I criticize “agents” in general, because all buyer’s agents on the commission system do have a conflict of interest with their clients. Reload the page and you’ll see the logo says “What your agent won’t tell you”.
I also removed all mention of the ugly and hated Realtor(R) word from text I wrote, except for this line:
“The cost of selling a house is kept unfairly high because of the Realtor® lobby’s corruption of US legislators.”
Which is a provable fact

Well done Patrick. Good decision in my opinion. I appreciate you putting your thoughts and reactions on display for all to see and comment on. In the end, looks like you maintained your commitment to the mission of the site, even if your pride was a bit ruffled in the process. Thanks.

BTW, what about simply using the phrase "What your real estate agent won't tell you"?

Katy Perry says

elliemae says

Katy - it’s winter. Don’t those things get cold?

It was like low 70’s in LA today. but I’ll try and find a sweater.

Sure, I'm off topic here... but 70's???? I'm so jealous! Had a frozen pipe and resulting dogsicles who played in the mud (which froze immediately); yard water shut off for the winter now and will be digging pipe in the spring. The beautiful snow is crusty and muddy as it melts and the only skin we show is between the top of our gloves and the bottom of our sleeves.... I don't care if you cover up (was joking, obviously) but it hurts when you tell me you're basking in the sun.

Is it by a pool? Little drinks with umbrellas? Pool boys with palm fronds?

Finally, this big red-haired English guy stands up in back and says “It sucks!” and sits down again. That guys was my hero at work, for about a year.

I'm doing my best to learn how to shut the hell up at work - our motto is, "I can do That!" no matter how idiotic. Our job is more valuable to us than reality at this point.

elliemae says

Katy Perry says

elliemae says

Katy - it’s winter. Don’t those things get cold?

It was like low 70’s in LA today. but I’ll try and find a sweater.

Sure, I’m off topic here… but 70’s???? I’m so jealous! Had a frozen pipe and resulting dogsicles who played in the mud (which froze immediately); yard water shut off for the winter now and will be digging pipe in the spring. The beautiful snow is crusty and muddy as it melts and the only skin we show is between the top of our gloves and the bottom of our sleeves…. I don’t care if you cover up (was joking, obviously) but it hurts when you tell me you’re basking in the sun.
Is it by a pool? Little drinks with umbrellas? Pool boys with palm fronds?

Ellimae sorry to hear that. I guess it is too late ,... you need your water system "winterized" it's only $100-$150 beats a repair bill i think?

where are you located BTW?

The weather is really all we have going for us out here at the moment. but I'll take it.

Katy Perry says

elliemae says

Katy Perry says

elliemae says

Katy - it’s winter. Don’t those things get cold?

It was like low 70’s in LA today. but I’ll try and find a sweater.

Sure, I’m off topic here… but 70’s???? I’m so jealous! Had a frozen pipe and resulting dogsicles who played in the mud (which froze immediately); yard water shut off for the winter now and will be digging pipe in the spring. The beautiful snow is crusty and muddy as it melts and the only skin we show is between the top of our gloves and the bottom of our sleeves…. I don’t care if you cover up (was joking, obviously) but it hurts when you tell me you’re basking in the sun.

Is it by a pool? Little drinks with umbrellas? Pool boys with palm fronds?

Ellimae sorry to hear that. I guess it is too late ,… you need your water system “winterized” it’s only $100-$150 beats a repair bill i think?
where are you located BTW?
The weather is really all we have going for us out here at the moment. but I’ll take it.

You don't need a sweater. :-)))))))

I'm located in the mountains of southern Utah. It's warming up again, but I get slammed 3-4 times each year. The winterizer was too lazy to do the deed and now she and her pals will be digging up pipe in the spring. It actually was getting to the point that it needed to be done anyway, just hated the drama involved with the water spraying, etc.

:) enjoy L.A. I'll be down that way soon and shall sit by a pool. And hit a beach - it's required.

elliemae says

I’m located in the mountains of southern Utah. It’s warming up again, but I get slammed 3-4 times each year. The winterizer was too lazy to do the deed and now she and her pals will be digging up pipe in the spring. It actually was getting to the point that it needed to be done anyway, just hated the drama involved with the water spraying, etc.
enjoy L.A. I’ll be down that way soon and shall sit by a pool. And hit a beach - it’s

Souther Utah cool! Utah is so beautiful. Rode through there on a Motor bike, camping and visiting like 4-5 different National Parks in 2008. really liked the Moab area. and The NP's, and general geography/topography. I need to bring a good camera next time. Was a bit cold at night though, at the end of Sept first week in Oct but then the crowds where thin at the NP's so that made up for it.
cheers

Well done. Thanks for the good work.

they are full of shit is what they are.