patrick.net

Patrick, I find the advices that Ellimae compiled and extended most relevant. With all due respect, it appears you are not yet reacting properly. I will put the situation in more graphic terms.

Imagine a criminal on the street has attacked you with a knife. Regrettably, most “normal” people end up dead in this situation. Number one reason, as related by police experts who specifically researched typical situations and typical victim responses, is that the victims have no prior frame of reference to quickly and fully believe that the attacking thug has intent to kill them.

Some people freeze, a natural and beneficial reaction in everyday life – it is reasonable to not act before the situation is completely clear and plan of action is finalized. Yet those people end up stubbed and bleeding the soonest. I’m glad to see that you did not freeze but at the very least cried for help – a much better response.

Some people try to run – way better reaction than freezing. Some of them get stubbed in the back or buttocks anyway, yet the probability of survival goes way up. In some situations (e.g. your loved ones are with you) running away is not an option. I have reasons to believe that you love what you do strongly enough to exclude running.

The third option is protecting oneself. Once again, most victims don’t do it correctly as they were never trained in that. The autopsies routinely show that the deceased victims repeatedly tried to intercept the knife with the palms of their hands, the way one instinctively do it and the way we often see little kids intercept opposing kid’s hands in kindergarten scuffles. I regret to say that I observe this behavior in you too, Patrick.

Lawsuit, just like knife, is a human-made killing tool, for which normal people do not possess instinctive means of defense. So one has to learn and practice the defense techniques, including armed ones, ask others for help, employ “defense professionals” etc. All of that are quite unnatural activities, yet absolutely necessary if one ventures out on the dark streets filled with criminals, as you did.

Here are steps for the proper defense:

(1) Quickly and fully believe that you are under a life-threatening attack. Your situation is akin to someone who stumbled upon a band of thugs robbing a hapless victim on a street, tried to help, and had one of the criminals come after you with a knife. You really came to the help and tried to push the thugs away, thus materially impeding their business of separating the victim from his money. They are bound to retaliate ferociously.

(2) Quickly assume defensive posture. There are many schools of defense and corresponding defensive postures, yet all of them have common goals of becoming less vulnerable, more mobile, and prepared to deliver a counterblow. You received many advices here on practical steps of protecting yourself – all of them good IMHO. Just don’t stand there relaxed and erect pretending that nothing has happened! (Actually, I was trained a bit in a martial art that suggest relaxed and erect defensive posture, it also suggests hyper-relaxation for deceptive and quick whip-like blows and readiness to move sideways with incredible speed using the force of gravity and natural body mechanics, yet it is quite esoteric and requires long time to attain mastery, something you don’t have at the moment).

(3) Get the hell away from the line of attack! Against knife, this could be as simple as stepping aside, or twisting your torso, or jumping back. The trick is to do it without hesitation and very quickly. If none of this is doable due to physical constraints, deflect the knife arm thrust with your forearm. If this is not doable either, block the thrust with your forearm.

In your case, you need to immediately get away from the line of present attack, which progresses along the copyright issue. Just don’t be there! Remove the references to their copyrighted name. You are kind of trying to block by editing the logo and adding copyright symbol, yet this is the riskiest option during the step (3) as you are getting in contact with the knife hand and trying to stop it, and a tiny little slip may result in your blocking arm getting injured by the blade. The sheer force of impact from the attacker’s forehand can also injure it, as the thug delivering the blow is very large, muscular, and experienced in this kind of fights. Deflection in combination with evasion is much safer. Once again, just don’t be there!

(4) Counterattack! Simultaneously with the evasion and deflection, deliver a series of incapacitating blows aiming to the most vulnerable areas, preferably head and neck. Don’t bother striking the knife arm and especially trying to fight the knife itself. The thug will naturally drop the knife (notice the correspondence – drop the lawsuit) once his brain is sufficiently rattled by your counterattack. The analog of head in this case is of course the management. The analog of your fists is the media, politicians, and prosecutors. You got quite a few of valuable suggestions related to whom you could engage in this matter. Do it now! Do it with full power! Turn the tables and let them be on defense, for instance, for committing a conspiracy to silence a publisher who may be helpful to prosecutors bringing up a federal case against them.

(5) Once the immediate danger is eliminated, disengage. Your actions and cries for help will have resulted in police and other people taking up the issue with the thugs. Watch your back, look around, and move out of the engagement area. A very important step! If you stay in too long, the friends of the thugs, or a thug you haven’t noticed in all the commotion and stress-induced tunnel vision you’ve developed may come along to stub you in the back. Don’t make it personal. Criminals do respect civilians able to protect themselves and tend to stay away from them. Yet they have to protect themselves too from over-eager civilian crime fighters. Use your best judgment to only pick fights that matter.

Good luck!

S says

find a better way to buy and sell houses and see if you can make it work.

Hourly! Realtors(R) have conflicts of interest: they don't get paid unless there is a sale, and they get paid more if the buyer overpays. It's also really annoying that they spread money around DC to make sure our representatives represent them, not us. They are a big fat tick dug into the collective body of the public.

I'm going to start a free advertising service for real estate lawyers who will work by the hour.

RayAmerica says

Simply comply with their request to respect their trademark and I’m sure they’ll go away. If you decide to pursue this, IMO, it will be a huge mistake. These people have very deep pockets and apparently have an axe to grind with you.

Sure, done! I'll refer to the bastards correctly from now on. But the idea that I should be intimidated because they have a lot of unethically gained loot is just contrary to the whole "all men are created equal" thing. If I can't speak about Realtor(R) evil by name, then what good is the first amendment anyway?

If I can’t speak about Realtor(R) evil by name, then what good is the first amendment anyway?

fwiw, I think your change is sufficient to satisfy their trademark complaint.

But you are in fact escalating things from IP to defamation.

To be defamation, it has to be false, right?

Check my home page (and crash2.html and crash3.html) and tell me what I say about Realtors(R) that's false.

To be defamation, it has to be false, right?
Check my home page (and crash2.html and crash3.html) and tell me what I say about Realtors(R) that’s false.

I found 2 spots where you used their mark on the front page questionably. Saying they "lie" and are the reason why housing transactions are 6% are arguably true, but not flat out facts. You keep opening yourself up to a lawsuit. If you insist on using their mark at least say "some" or "many" lie to which, if need be, you could easily point to articles proving they lie. Housing transactions don't have to be 6% even using a realtor, so that should be tweaked too.

Your crash2.html site has lots of potential trouble. You really should consider talking to an attorney or going the easy route and not using their mark.

Another reader told me that his own site got shut down by unjustified complaints, but that if I have a good backup site it won't cause much of an interruption. And there are legal motions you can file to reverse the shutdown. Already getting prepared for that possibility...

One lawsuit may cost 3 or 4 HaHa's.

Pride can be very expensive, so maybe you can save a few bones by setting aside just a little bit of pride (?) ... I've never done that, but I hear it's the smart thing to do.

Maybe The first letter was a set up to give you enought rope to hang yourself.

they must be thinking "How can we make this guy go away forever"

....send first letter, let him react (make noose.)

don't let them walk you down the ramp. they know who you are. they understand the chip on your shoulder.

This is all part of a 123 knock out process.
Taking realtor off will not stop this they'll have just as much issue with any word you use. ( edit this isn't right now that I've thought it through)
BTW Their lawyers are reading this IMO

Taking "realtor" off will definitely stop them. They are not stupid (at least their attorneys aren't). They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit. If you refer to them as real estate agents, you have the same message without the potential trouble.

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

In the entire world, only in USA, we pay 6% as commission.

This isn't exactly true. In Japan, buyer and seller each pay 3% of the purchase price, plus 50,000 yen (about $600), plus consumption tax (5% on top of the previous two items). In my case, the total commission was about 7.2%, 3.6% of which was paid by me.

Bap33 says

Pride can be very expensive

It's a core message of my site though: Realtors(R) have a whopping conflict of interest with their clients. And they're organized to corrupt our laws to ensure they continue to profit at the expense of their clients. It's pretty clear they are anti-democratic, anti-free-market, and now anti-free-speech. How could I not oppose such organized evil?

Here's a great quote from their own site:

The life of a lobbyist is one that not many people understand. Charged with persuading members of the government to enact legislation that would benefit their group—in this case the associations of Realtors®—lobbyists spend their days attempting to influence the outcome of legislation or administrative decisions.

We all understand it perfectly well I think. It's simply corruption: using money to twist laws to "benefit their group" at the expense of everyone else.

BTW, they use "Realtors®" exactly the same way I have it in my logo now. I don't think they can object to format any more.

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?

what do they have to lose.

I agree with Katy Perry. Prepare for the lawsuit, as per multiple suggestions here. On the street, the perpetrator sometimes stops seeing that you enacted phase 1 (you believe the attack is with intent to kill and you know what to do), phase 2 (your posture is impenetrable and threatening), or phase 3 (you evaded or deflected the first attack confidently and with no injury sustained). Yet you have to be ready to go to phase 4 (ruthless all-out counterattack). Now is the time to line up your ducks. Identify and befriend their natural enemies, ASAP.

Katy Perry says

what do they have to lose.

Are You Missing the Real Estate Boom?: The Boom Will Not Bust and Why Property Values Will Continue to Climb Through the End of the Decade - And How to Profit From Them

David Lereah
Crown Business; 1ST edition (February 22, 2005)

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

#1 It's a waste of their time and money. You don't fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don't fight.
#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.
#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

ch_tah says

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

#1 It’s a waste of their time and money. You don’t fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don’t fight.
#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.
#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

again
What do they have to lose. really?
i'll only be suprised if they drop this. IMO
they may not want the attention on this if they end up looking bad to the sheeple people.
Press release anyone?

ch_tah says

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?

what do they have to lose.

#1 It’s a waste of their time and money. You don’t fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don’t fight.

#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.

#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

Let's see. Let's assume this site has an order of 100,000 readers. Given its quality and word-of-mouth marketing in full swing, it is reasonable to expect it to go up to 1,000,000 in the next year or two. Let's assume that reading this site results in delay/cancellation of real estate purchase plans, accelerated strategic foreclosures etc. for 80% of readers. Let's further assume that average value of such unfulfilled real estate transaction is $300,000. And let's take the real estate agent commission as 6%. 1,000,000*0.8*300,000*0.06 = $14,400,000,000.

It's $14 billion in potentially lost commissions folks! Now, granted, this site is not the only one "telling the truth", and readers numbers growth is speculative. Yet still, even if we dilute the numbers by 1/10 the influence, 1/10 the growth, and 1/10 the "goodwill value", it's still order of $10M.

Makes perfect sense to spend couple million dollars to protect at least 10, doesn't it? They don't even have to win the case, they only need to strangle the Patrick's ability to maintain the quality site. With quality down, the readers will depart. Seen it done over and over to sites I subscribe to. The attack is for real, take it to the bank.

Patrick, the socialist himself.... Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh... Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

andrewl570 says

Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism

wat

Fear not the heathen NAR.

Isaiah 54:17 (New King James Version)

17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the LORD.

I thought this was a timely article since this thread has been examining trademarks and copyright. Homeland Security has seized 80 websites last week alone for violating trademarks and copyright. I didn't even know that the Department of Homeland Security has this as one of their duties and/or mandates. I guess Homeland Security has their fingers in everything....go figure. http://music-mix.ew.com/2010/11/30/homeland-security-rap-blog/?hpt=T2

Here is one of the web sites that they seized http://www.onsmash.com/

don says

When you are up against the Big Guy, expect to lose. There was a restaurant in Santa Cruz CA called McDharmas. It was fast food, but it was a healthy food alternative to the crap served at the corporate McDonalds chain. A fight ensued. Guess who won?
http://www.dharmaland.com/history/sentinel.html

Not really the same thing. They didn't just criticize McDonald's, they used a very similar-sounding name in order to gain customers and profit. I can't open an electronics store and call it "Best Buy", because I would be unfairly profiting from Best Buy's reputation. But if I want to criticize Best Buy on my blog, and use their name in the context of making true statements about that company, then it is protected speech.

Now if Patrick were to say, "I am a realtor - buy a house from me", when he is not a realtor, that would clearly be an improper use of their copyrighted name. But to say, "There are things that realtors won't tell you", is not the same issue. He is criticizing them, not trying to steal business away from them.

Also, where are people getting that Patrick used the realtor "mark"? There is a realtor logo, which looks like a stylized "R". I do not and never have seen such a mark on Patrick's site.

andrewl570 says

Patrick, the socialist himself…. Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh… Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

Trademark law allows individuals to profit from intellectual property that they created. That is the exact OPPOSITE of socialism.

ch_tah says

Taking “realtor” off will definitely stop them. They are not stupid (at least their attorneys aren’t). They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit. If you refer to them as real estate agents, you have the same message without the potential trouble.

They'll file a lawsuit if they can do it - but by removing the realwhore term and logo, you take the wind out of their sales.

What's your goal, here? if it's to challenge a dying organization desperate for any method possible to maintain their stranglehold on house sales, you're just a guy who has created a popular site that they can use as an example of how powerful they are,

If it's to continue fighting the good fight, spreading the word about the housing crisis and why now isn't a good time to buy... use the word "agent." We're all smart enough to connect the two terms.

Have you spoken with an atty yet? You need their advice more than you need ours. Their lawyers are drawing up papers as we speak (not realizing that they look increasingly desperate as a result).

Patrick,

I like your idea of paying a real estate "expert" by the hour for their expertise. How about we talk about this and possible other ideas on a "Patrick Forum"? I think you've got an opening to change the industry during this current situation. The industry needs to be changed!

I obtained my real estate license because I was so frustrated by a Realtor during one of my home purchase transactions. My feeling was if she could do real estate - anyone could. I was right, it's not brain surgery, it just takes the time and desire to do the coursework and pay for the tools. I've more than made up for the time and money put out by the savings I've earned on my own transactions.

And, I agree with the 2 posts above - don't fall into the big guys trap!

-S

S says

I like your idea of paying a real estate “expert” by the hour for their expertise. How about we talk about this and possible other ideas on a “Patrick Forum”?

Welcome to the party. You're on the forum now. Whatcha wanna talk about?

S says

Patrick,
I like your idea of paying a real estate “expert” by the hour for their expertise. How about we talk about this and possible other ideas on a “Patrick Forum”? I think you’ve got an opening to change the industry during this current situation. The industry needs to be changed!
I obtained my real estate license because I was so frustrated by a Realtor during one of my home purchase transactions. My feeling was if she could do real estate - anyone could. I was right, it’s not brain surgery, it just takes the time and desire to do the coursework and pay for the tools. I’ve more than made up for the time and money put out by the savings I’ve earned on my own transactions.
And, I agree with the 2 posts above - don’t fall into the big guys trap!
-S

What expertise?

I have a friend of mine who works for a title company. She tells me Realtors just "hang around" during closing waiting for their commission.

gameisrigged says

andrewl570 says

Patrick, the socialist himself…. Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh… Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

Trademark law allows individuals to profit from intellectual property that they created. That is the exact OPPOSITE of socialism.

Sounds like a Teatard. Spouting off nonsense and calling all things "Socialism". Books are your friends! :)

It's an interesting quandry. All realtors are real estate agents, but not all real estate agents are realtors. The specific phrase the NAR seems to be taking issue with is the logo, which states: "What Realtors (r) won't tell you." If this opinion statement is generally perceived to to be true with the sub-grouping known as realtors, does it matter if it is also perceived to be true with respect to all real estate agents? If we assume a realtor will not tell you X and assume a real estate agent will not tell you X with X being constant, then both of the following statements are true:
1) What realtors won't tell you...
2) What real estate agents won't tell you...

Most members of the public are not real estate agents and probably have little dealing with people in the real estate business. If you re-phrased it to: "What real estate agents won't tell you," members of the public may believe that you are not criticizing realtors, but only real estate agents because they do not realize all reators are real estate agents. Interesting, if you were singling out realtors because of their political lobbying group and what they won't tell you, it would be seem to be improper to generalize to include people that are not in the sub-group regardless of whether or not some in the larger group would not tell you some of the same things.

Man..too much abstract theory. I think if you read the website, you find this is a place for public commentary on matters of the public's interest. Wouldn't an attempt to quell public debate on issues of real estate and the real estate lobbiests be subject to an anti-SLAPP?

OK, I sort of give up. Now I criticize "agents" in general, because all buyer's agents on the commission system do have a conflict of interest with their clients. Reload the page and you'll see the logo says "What your agent won't tell you".

I also removed all mention of the ugly and hated Realtor(R) word from text I wrote, except for this line:

"The cost of selling a house is kept unfairly high because of the Realtor® lobby's corruption of US legislators."

Which is a provable fact.

Can we say "realtor" or must we refer to them in the formal?
(example)
"I listed my house with a realwhore, received substantially less money that I would have because I had to pay ransome."

Just curious.

very interesting thread IMO though

Katy - it's winter. Don't those things get cold?

gameisrigged says

andrewl570 says

Patrick, the socialist himself…. Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh… Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

Trademark law allows individuals to profit from intellectual property that they created. That is the exact OPPOSITE of socialism.

Trademark is not natural law. It is government enforced monopoly. How would free market take care of knock offs? People like name brands and quality. People seek out name brands and they would reward a good quality brand by purchasing their products... and guess what, if the knock off is a better quality, then the knock off should be rewarded for being a quality competitor. www.mises.org is your friend; or try www.lewrockwell.com. do some research on copyright and trademark from the true leaders of freedom.

andrewl570 says

www.mises.org is your friend

::eyeroll::

and Lew Rockwell is full of shit, eg:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north790.html

Gary North there is one bad actor -- we're talking Christian Reconstructionist here.

It's all one big of Paultard/Misean/Christianist wank there, to go with the wank you wrote above.

This all reminds me of a meeting at Schwab in San Francisco I was at maybe ten years ago. The senior vice president had some ideas for changing a Schwab web site. The ideas were really just awful, making it into an online game-show format. Ugh. Insulting to the intelligence of the customer.

So the SVP presents these ideas in a meeting of 100 people and asks for feedback. Silence. We all just look at each other uncomfortably for a while. Finally, this big red-haired English guy stands up in back and says "It sucks!" and sits down again. That guys was my hero at work, for about a year.

Then he was fired. They found some pretext because he was a loud mouth and said things like that a lot. He had a hard time getting a good job again. But you know, his comments were really worthwhile. And Schwab benefitted, because they didn't implement that awful idea for that website.

elliemae says

Katy - it’s winter. Don’t those things get cold?

It was like low 70's in LA today. but I'll try and find a sweater.

.... a rose by any other name .......

Good story Patrick. He probably wouldn't have earned the same level of respect from his peers had he conveyed his opposition to the idea in a more diplomatic manner, but he might have been able to voice his opposition to the project while still preserving his job. Corporate culture is really feckless. Then again this guy would probably be succesful and also happier outside of that culture.