patrick.net

Can't you just host the site in some country where Realtors isn't trademarked?

If the Oxford English Dictionary has already begun listing "realtor" as a generic word for "estate agent", I say host the site in the UK.

Still, replacing the "realtor" in your logo with "real estate agent" is probably the safest thing to do.

Lawsuit issues aside, the NAR should be ecstatic that a word they invented has become generic enough to merit a dicitonary entry. Human being work their entire lives to leave something behind in popular culture; how many individual personal names have entries in the OED? If I knew that the only lasting accomplishment in my life would be to contribute a single word to the English language, I'd consider it a life well spent.

I'm sure they would look pretty stupid if they proceeded with some type of action against you AFTER you changed their name to REALTOR(R).

In a disclaimer at the bottom of all pages could/should be stated very clearly that the word ASSHOLE in front of that trademark is your personal opinion, to which you are entilted.

How about the realtors claim that homeownership is an investment without a SEC securities license?

Vise Grip
Cresent
Skill
All of these are registered Company names. And they are used otherwise.

Everyone calls a pair of adjustable jaw, spring locking pliers, "Vise Grips" - no matter what company made them. You never ask for "adjustable jaw spring locking pliers" .. you just say, "hand me the vise grips". Vise Grip is a company. My vise grips are made by Sears and say Craftsman on them.

Everyone calls a screw to adjust, smooth faced hand wrench, a "Cresent wrench" - no matter what company made them. I actually have some Cresent wrenches, but Craftsman too.

Everyone calls a portable, electric, worm gear driven, 7-1/4" power hand saw, a "Skill saw" - no matter what company made the saw. "My Skill saw is a Makita".

Same with Channel Lock, Bondo, and I'm sure you folks know some examples. The common name for all things in a catagory are the company that may have started the line, but that does not mean anything anymore.

Everyone calls a usedhouse, lie-to-sell, pimp-their-sister-for-a-buck, no good rotten MFer, a real tor. REwhore, REturd, REpuke, REliar, REscum, REmaggot ...

Pretty simple. (not legal advice)

Personally, I think they spelled it wrong! You better grab the correct spelling, and TM it. The correct spelling is REALATOR tm noone says real-tor, they say real-a-tor. I think that would beat it -ahahah. Seek legal advice before use! My gift to you for all your efforts. Then for your graphic you need that picture of Julio Araracio, to show what happens to over zealous mata-reala-tor's! Then again, that might get the matador's [NAM] after you! You'll know when it's time to fold. This is just the first round, means nothing. I would ignore all future correspondence, show you existing hand to a competent lawyer, and play your hand accordingly. Then again... all stupid advice, when NAR's corrupt eyes are reading this blog, knowing full well you got and understood the rhetoric.

***** This is for the prying eyes of the almighty NAR. It's evident that Patrick is dealing with a tit-less wonder, pulsing testosterone, or a male with a very tiny pee-pee, and no testosterone, as law is all about ego. Now, the fact that your skill set only elevated [if it's possible to view your diminished position] you to a NAR staffer... Oh well, pity ran out for you. NAR must realize that they are a cluster-fuck of incompetents, from the head realtard, to the bottom feeding, couldn't get a job anywhere else ambulance chasers. An analyst anywhere, would have been fired many times over, if he/she was wrong as many times as Yun! This moron is a flaming IDIOT! All NAR has left; is propaganda. A 9 pound monkey would know that the cesspool has far to go before it is completely drained. Infected by the rancorous, vile contaminants dumped in it by NAR, MBA, Fed Govt., Investment Banking, and dim-whited, bottom of the food chain REALTORS, there is nothing left to suck out. And this is why this pathetic orgy is clinging to the last great bastillon... Mortgage Interest Deduction! Loose that, and your useless little cult is cooked. None of you would know what it was like to actually WORK for a living. And, who would hire you? I can't think of any successful, viable, profitable businesses, that make their living from peddling absolute USELESS INFORMATION!

Paying to become a Realtor is as stupid as buying a distributor license for Monavie. Or as stupid as buying an online store from 2 by 2.

They all sound like ponzi pyramid schemes to me.

Pampers... diapers.... Same thing...
Same with real estate agents, realtors.... it's all the same.

They are trying to prevent the inevitable. They will lose their trademark. It'd be awesome if Patrick was the one to cause their downfall :)

Good for you, Patrick. Occassionally, conflict brings out a better solution.

"The fair use and nominative use defenses are to help ensure that trademark owners do not prohibit the use of their marks when they are used for the purpose of description or identification."

Patrick if they keep on harrassing you, just post their physical address right on the front page and call them out on it. Write a letter to NPR, make a huge fuss about it by going to newspapers and radio and they'll back off.

This way these guys can't keep on hiding behind the scenes. You can of course play nice with them and request in writing (certified mail) which specific instances in use of the term "REALTOR" are in their opinion improper.

larrypatrickmaloney says

My point was that typically, a leftish person will complain about their first amendment rights , without truly understanding or knowing the constitution. Which seems to be the case here, and it seems you agree with that analysis.

I disagree - it's most often rightwingers that climb on this bandwagon, even political so-called leaders who should know better. Witness Sarah Palin in this exchange:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews_excl/ynews_excl_pl3441

Patrick,
It is good to comply. Our time is well spent on bringing out the truth about Real-thieves network.
They are cartel. In nexus with politicians. They legalize their illegal ways to crush competition.
Please read this research.
http://business.fullerton.edu/finance/irer/papers/past/vol5_pdf/012_039US.pdf
In the entire world, only in USA, we pay 6% as commission.
I believe the axis of evil is them, mortgage brokers and bankers who securitize the junk.

It is a shame our great country is in doldrums due to these immoral people who put their commission foremost than anything else.

Jokes on them because I like 80% of the rest of the US thought that realtor was a generic term until I learned differently at patrick.net. As far as I am concerned this site uses the trademark more clearly than any NAR communication I have ever seen. Their own TV commercials generalize the term, just like Dunacan did with its yo-yos.

I vote for Patrick changing the term REALTOR to Real Estate Agents or Real Estate Industry, because that's what it is - an Industry.

Now as far as all the bad mouthing of people who work in this industry, find a better way to buy and sell houses and see if you can make it work. Personally (as someone with a real estate license - and [egads!!!] even a REALTOR designation) I would love to see a better way to do the business of buying and selling real estate. But I think people are too lazy to do the work themselves and they don't mind handing the reins off to someone (in many cases just anyone) else.

Patrick - don't get sued!!! Your societal contribution is too great! I send all of my friends to your site.

I added a capital R and the trademark symbol to my logo.

IMHO, this is not enough to get them off your back. They will pester you as long as the word "Realtor" appears in your logo in any form.

You will also be better off changing the few references to "Realtor (tm)" in the left hand column (under the sheep picture) to something more generic like "real estate salespeople".

This is blatantly a nuisance but it is better to not get trampled. Your message is far too valuable, and I would hate to see it get stifled over this kind of nonsense.

TechGromit says

It’s your funeral, can I at least convince you to consult an lawyer before you commit financial suicide. Lawyers can make the unreasonable completely reasonable. If they can get a multimillion dollar award for a lady that burns herself with a obviously hot cup of coffee, I think they can prove copyright infringement in this case.

OK, trademark complaint resolved. Now it should more clearly be just a case about whether I am allowed to use freedom of speech to point out their harmful effect on the country.

I don't think it's resolved - you should use the word "agent" because we all know what you mean. Unless you're outrageously wealthy, you don't have a dog in this fight.

In your text, you should post their letter of demand as well as some of the funnier responses. Create a page dedicated to the NAR, and we'll all say something nice such as "please don't tell my mom I'm a Realwhore - she thinks I'm a piano player in a whore house!" Let's have fun - but not at your expense.

moeseo says

Over the last 3 years I have been sued, slandered, received death threats, hate emails, hate calls, been followed by men in back cars with dark sunglasses and had to move into a safe location to make sure my family was safe.

Seriously? I've read some of your forum - and had a real problem with the ll's who took renter's money and didn't pay yet were self-righteous. But there are many people who just plain got screwed and it's hard not to feel sorry for them. Has it been worth it for you (if you had to move)?

robertoaribas says

However, I am sort of surprised at the lack of reading comprehension evidenced in nearly half of the posts on here: Freedom of speech, and right to maintain a trademark are not intertwined by a mile in this debate, and Patrick will get his tail ripped apart trying to use that as a defense

I think it's easy to say that Patrick should fight the good fight - but rr is correct that many people aren't actually reading the letter. This is a legal maneuver by a powerful lobby that owns several congressmen, senators, governors, etc.

Legal stuff isn't about reality. It's about the definition of "is," and stupid shit like that. I had a lawsuit - whistleblower - that all came down to one email that they created. I had to pay a document expert $2500 to testify that They had cut & pasted the document, and recreated it. It didn't matter that their nurse was physically, verbally and emotionally abusing patients and that their was a cover-up which was all documented. My point is that this isn't about free speech, it's about a point of law that will obfuscated and manipulated by their lawyers and Patrick will lose.

larrypatrickmaloney says

At least I am willing to publicly reveal my identity, which gives me credibility. You, not so much.

It would take more than your name to make you credible.

elliemae says

I don’t think it’s resolved - you should use the word “agent” because we all know what you mean. Unless you’re outrageously wealthy, you don’t have a dog in this fight.

Well, what could their next complaint be? The first complaint was that I used their trademarked word generically. Now I don't. I'm talking exactly and only about them, not about the minority of agents who had the good sense not to join them.

They asked me to REMOVE their trademark from my site, but that's going too far. I don't see why I should have to.

When it's illegal or financially impractical to exercise freedom of speech, the housing bubble is a smaller worry. First we have to fix freedom of speech.

I suppose they could try a defamation or slander complaint, so I'm going over my text to see what they might try to use. I was reading about SLAPP (strategic lawsuit against public participation) suits and a typical mark of a SLAPP suit is a claim of defamation. But that's good in a way, since judges know this and often dismiss the suit quickly and make them pay all expenses.

They asked me to REMOVE their trademark from my site, but that’s going to far. I don’t see why I should have to.

Patrick,
A few years ago I was named in a frivolous lawsuit that dragged on for about a year. Everyone within breathing distance that was involved in the contract was sued. Just prior to the court date, the plaintiff offered an out of court settlement that was 20 fold less than the original stated amount. We collectively refused and the suit was dropped. (By the way, the plaintiff perjured himself numerous times during the 3 + hour deposition which was very well documented). We “won.” However, we also lost because quite a bit of money was spent in legal fees along with an awful lot of wasted time. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. Trust me. Don't look for any justice in our judicial system. The moral of the story is this: avoid lawsuits at all costs. Simply comply with their request to respect their trademark and I’m sure they’ll go away. If you decide to pursue this, IMO, it will be a huge mistake. These people have very deep pockets and apparently have an axe to grind with you. Why give them an opportunity by handing them the axe?

Patrick, I find the advices that Ellimae compiled and extended most relevant. With all due respect, it appears you are not yet reacting properly. I will put the situation in more graphic terms.

Imagine a criminal on the street has attacked you with a knife. Regrettably, most “normal” people end up dead in this situation. Number one reason, as related by police experts who specifically researched typical situations and typical victim responses, is that the victims have no prior frame of reference to quickly and fully believe that the attacking thug has intent to kill them.

Some people freeze, a natural and beneficial reaction in everyday life – it is reasonable to not act before the situation is completely clear and plan of action is finalized. Yet those people end up stubbed and bleeding the soonest. I’m glad to see that you did not freeze but at the very least cried for help – a much better response.

Some people try to run – way better reaction than freezing. Some of them get stubbed in the back or buttocks anyway, yet the probability of survival goes way up. In some situations (e.g. your loved ones are with you) running away is not an option. I have reasons to believe that you love what you do strongly enough to exclude running.

The third option is protecting oneself. Once again, most victims don’t do it correctly as they were never trained in that. The autopsies routinely show that the deceased victims repeatedly tried to intercept the knife with the palms of their hands, the way one instinctively do it and the way we often see little kids intercept opposing kid’s hands in kindergarten scuffles. I regret to say that I observe this behavior in you too, Patrick.

Lawsuit, just like knife, is a human-made killing tool, for which normal people do not possess instinctive means of defense. So one has to learn and practice the defense techniques, including armed ones, ask others for help, employ “defense professionals” etc. All of that are quite unnatural activities, yet absolutely necessary if one ventures out on the dark streets filled with criminals, as you did.

Here are steps for the proper defense:

(1) Quickly and fully believe that you are under a life-threatening attack. Your situation is akin to someone who stumbled upon a band of thugs robbing a hapless victim on a street, tried to help, and had one of the criminals come after you with a knife. You really came to the help and tried to push the thugs away, thus materially impeding their business of separating the victim from his money. They are bound to retaliate ferociously.

(2) Quickly assume defensive posture. There are many schools of defense and corresponding defensive postures, yet all of them have common goals of becoming less vulnerable, more mobile, and prepared to deliver a counterblow. You received many advices here on practical steps of protecting yourself – all of them good IMHO. Just don’t stand there relaxed and erect pretending that nothing has happened! (Actually, I was trained a bit in a martial art that suggest relaxed and erect defensive posture, it also suggests hyper-relaxation for deceptive and quick whip-like blows and readiness to move sideways with incredible speed using the force of gravity and natural body mechanics, yet it is quite esoteric and requires long time to attain mastery, something you don’t have at the moment).

(3) Get the hell away from the line of attack! Against knife, this could be as simple as stepping aside, or twisting your torso, or jumping back. The trick is to do it without hesitation and very quickly. If none of this is doable due to physical constraints, deflect the knife arm thrust with your forearm. If this is not doable either, block the thrust with your forearm.

In your case, you need to immediately get away from the line of present attack, which progresses along the copyright issue. Just don’t be there! Remove the references to their copyrighted name. You are kind of trying to block by editing the logo and adding copyright symbol, yet this is the riskiest option during the step (3) as you are getting in contact with the knife hand and trying to stop it, and a tiny little slip may result in your blocking arm getting injured by the blade. The sheer force of impact from the attacker’s forehand can also injure it, as the thug delivering the blow is very large, muscular, and experienced in this kind of fights. Deflection in combination with evasion is much safer. Once again, just don’t be there!

(4) Counterattack! Simultaneously with the evasion and deflection, deliver a series of incapacitating blows aiming to the most vulnerable areas, preferably head and neck. Don’t bother striking the knife arm and especially trying to fight the knife itself. The thug will naturally drop the knife (notice the correspondence – drop the lawsuit) once his brain is sufficiently rattled by your counterattack. The analog of head in this case is of course the management. The analog of your fists is the media, politicians, and prosecutors. You got quite a few of valuable suggestions related to whom you could engage in this matter. Do it now! Do it with full power! Turn the tables and let them be on defense, for instance, for committing a conspiracy to silence a publisher who may be helpful to prosecutors bringing up a federal case against them.

(5) Once the immediate danger is eliminated, disengage. Your actions and cries for help will have resulted in police and other people taking up the issue with the thugs. Watch your back, look around, and move out of the engagement area. A very important step! If you stay in too long, the friends of the thugs, or a thug you haven’t noticed in all the commotion and stress-induced tunnel vision you’ve developed may come along to stub you in the back. Don’t make it personal. Criminals do respect civilians able to protect themselves and tend to stay away from them. Yet they have to protect themselves too from over-eager civilian crime fighters. Use your best judgment to only pick fights that matter.

Good luck!

S says

find a better way to buy and sell houses and see if you can make it work.

Hourly! Realtors(R) have conflicts of interest: they don't get paid unless there is a sale, and they get paid more if the buyer overpays. It's also really annoying that they spread money around DC to make sure our representatives represent them, not us. They are a big fat tick dug into the collective body of the public.

I'm going to start a free advertising service for real estate lawyers who will work by the hour.

RayAmerica says

Simply comply with their request to respect their trademark and I’m sure they’ll go away. If you decide to pursue this, IMO, it will be a huge mistake. These people have very deep pockets and apparently have an axe to grind with you.

Sure, done! I'll refer to the bastards correctly from now on. But the idea that I should be intimidated because they have a lot of unethically gained loot is just contrary to the whole "all men are created equal" thing. If I can't speak about Realtor(R) evil by name, then what good is the first amendment anyway?

If I can’t speak about Realtor(R) evil by name, then what good is the first amendment anyway?

fwiw, I think your change is sufficient to satisfy their trademark complaint.

But you are in fact escalating things from IP to defamation.

To be defamation, it has to be false, right?

Check my home page (and crash2.html and crash3.html) and tell me what I say about Realtors(R) that's false.

To be defamation, it has to be false, right?
Check my home page (and crash2.html and crash3.html) and tell me what I say about Realtors(R) that’s false.

I found 2 spots where you used their mark on the front page questionably. Saying they "lie" and are the reason why housing transactions are 6% are arguably true, but not flat out facts. You keep opening yourself up to a lawsuit. If you insist on using their mark at least say "some" or "many" lie to which, if need be, you could easily point to articles proving they lie. Housing transactions don't have to be 6% even using a realtor, so that should be tweaked too.

Your crash2.html site has lots of potential trouble. You really should consider talking to an attorney or going the easy route and not using their mark.

Another reader told me that his own site got shut down by unjustified complaints, but that if I have a good backup site it won't cause much of an interruption. And there are legal motions you can file to reverse the shutdown. Already getting prepared for that possibility...

One lawsuit may cost 3 or 4 HaHa's.

Pride can be very expensive, so maybe you can save a few bones by setting aside just a little bit of pride (?) ... I've never done that, but I hear it's the smart thing to do.

Maybe The first letter was a set up to give you enought rope to hang yourself.

they must be thinking "How can we make this guy go away forever"

....send first letter, let him react (make noose.)

don't let them walk you down the ramp. they know who you are. they understand the chip on your shoulder.

This is all part of a 123 knock out process.
Taking realtor off will not stop this they'll have just as much issue with any word you use. ( edit this isn't right now that I've thought it through)
BTW Their lawyers are reading this IMO

Taking "realtor" off will definitely stop them. They are not stupid (at least their attorneys aren't). They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit. If you refer to them as real estate agents, you have the same message without the potential trouble.

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

In the entire world, only in USA, we pay 6% as commission.

This isn't exactly true. In Japan, buyer and seller each pay 3% of the purchase price, plus 50,000 yen (about $600), plus consumption tax (5% on top of the previous two items). In my case, the total commission was about 7.2%, 3.6% of which was paid by me.

Bap33 says

Pride can be very expensive

It's a core message of my site though: Realtors(R) have a whopping conflict of interest with their clients. And they're organized to corrupt our laws to ensure they continue to profit at the expense of their clients. It's pretty clear they are anti-democratic, anti-free-market, and now anti-free-speech. How could I not oppose such organized evil?

Here's a great quote from their own site:

The life of a lobbyist is one that not many people understand. Charged with persuading members of the government to enact legislation that would benefit their group—in this case the associations of Realtors®—lobbyists spend their days attempting to influence the outcome of legislation or administrative decisions.

We all understand it perfectly well I think. It's simply corruption: using money to twist laws to "benefit their group" at the expense of everyone else.

BTW, they use "Realtors®" exactly the same way I have it in my logo now. I don't think they can object to format any more.

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?

what do they have to lose.

I agree with Katy Perry. Prepare for the lawsuit, as per multiple suggestions here. On the street, the perpetrator sometimes stops seeing that you enacted phase 1 (you believe the attack is with intent to kill and you know what to do), phase 2 (your posture is impenetrable and threatening), or phase 3 (you evaded or deflected the first attack confidently and with no injury sustained). Yet you have to be ready to go to phase 4 (ruthless all-out counterattack). Now is the time to line up your ducks. Identify and befriend their natural enemies, ASAP.

Katy Perry says

what do they have to lose.

Are You Missing the Real Estate Boom?: The Boom Will Not Bust and Why Property Values Will Continue to Climb Through the End of the Decade - And How to Profit From Them

David Lereah
Crown Business; 1ST edition (February 22, 2005)

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

#1 It's a waste of their time and money. You don't fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don't fight.
#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.
#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

ch_tah says

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?
what do they have to lose.

#1 It’s a waste of their time and money. You don’t fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don’t fight.
#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.
#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

again
What do they have to lose. really?
i'll only be suprised if they drop this. IMO
they may not want the attention on this if they end up looking bad to the sheeple people.
Press release anyone?

ch_tah says

Katy Perry says

ch_tah says

They are not going to file a frivolous lawsuit

why not?

what do they have to lose.

#1 It’s a waste of their time and money. You don’t fight when you know you are going to lose. You bully yes, but you don’t fight.

#2 Depending on the jurisdiction, the other side can get their attorneys fees paid by the filer of the frivolous lawsuit.

#3 Also depending on the jurisdiction, judges can penalize the attorneys for filing a frivolous suit, although this is rare.

Let's see. Let's assume this site has an order of 100,000 readers. Given its quality and word-of-mouth marketing in full swing, it is reasonable to expect it to go up to 1,000,000 in the next year or two. Let's assume that reading this site results in delay/cancellation of real estate purchase plans, accelerated strategic foreclosures etc. for 80% of readers. Let's further assume that average value of such unfulfilled real estate transaction is $300,000. And let's take the real estate agent commission as 6%. 1,000,000*0.8*300,000*0.06 = $14,400,000,000.

It's $14 billion in potentially lost commissions folks! Now, granted, this site is not the only one "telling the truth", and readers numbers growth is speculative. Yet still, even if we dilute the numbers by 1/10 the influence, 1/10 the growth, and 1/10 the "goodwill value", it's still order of $10M.

Makes perfect sense to spend couple million dollars to protect at least 10, doesn't it? They don't even have to win the case, they only need to strangle the Patrick's ability to maintain the quality site. With quality down, the readers will depart. Seen it done over and over to sites I subscribe to. The attack is for real, take it to the bank.

Patrick, the socialist himself.... Socialists make crazy laws about trademarks, yet you love socialism. ugh... Socialism is any form of government intervention in the market place. Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism.

andrewl570 says

Trademark law is a perfect example of socialism

wat

Fear not the heathen NAR.

Isaiah 54:17 (New King James Version)

17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
And their righteousness is from Me,”
Says the LORD.

I thought this was a timely article since this thread has been examining trademarks and copyright. Homeland Security has seized 80 websites last week alone for violating trademarks and copyright. I didn't even know that the Department of Homeland Security has this as one of their duties and/or mandates. I guess Homeland Security has their fingers in everything....go figure. http://music-mix.ew.com/2010/11/30/homeland-security-rap-blog/?hpt=T2

Here is one of the web sites that they seized http://www.onsmash.com/

don says

When you are up against the Big Guy, expect to lose. There was a restaurant in Santa Cruz CA called McDharmas. It was fast food, but it was a healthy food alternative to the crap served at the corporate McDonalds chain. A fight ensued. Guess who won?
http://www.dharmaland.com/history/sentinel.html

Not really the same thing. They didn't just criticize McDonald's, they used a very similar-sounding name in order to gain customers and profit. I can't open an electronics store and call it "Best Buy", because I would be unfairly profiting from Best Buy's reputation. But if I want to criticize Best Buy on my blog, and use their name in the context of making true statements about that company, then it is protected speech.

Now if Patrick were to say, "I am a realtor - buy a house from me", when he is not a realtor, that would clearly be an improper use of their copyrighted name. But to say, "There are things that realtors won't tell you", is not the same issue. He is criticizing them, not trying to steal business away from them.

Also, where are people getting that Patrick used the realtor "mark"? There is a realtor logo, which looks like a stylized "R". I do not and never have seen such a mark on Patrick's site.