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2011 Mar 8, 12:34pm
That is for every dollar you make 59 cents goes to the government.
You want a $6.5T/yr government expenditure, you're going to have to have a heavy tax burden on workers, especially since half this country doesn't have a pot to piss in, income-wise.
You want lower taxes, cut spending.
Easier said than done, of course. Perhaps the Republican strategy of cut first and await the financial collapse is the only way government can work.
Counting SS & Medicare is slightly inaccurate as far as tax burdens go, because most people get that money back upon retirement, or would if we still have a functioning economy and system in the future.
justme
2011 Mar 9, 10:03am
EconPete, is this some sort of propaganda posting?
I don't get the math, it seems very wrong.
If you have a point to make, can you say it in plain English or by correct math?
The post you made just does not make sense, and the math is suspect, to put it mildly.
0.05/1.05 is 4.76%, not 5%, and that is just for starters...
Yes they make $100,000 look like 30% tax rate when the truth is $39,000/$66,000 = 59.1% tax
There you go again with the fuzzy math. The denominator should not be 66,000. Its should be 100,000.
And by the way, is it just me or have you gone to camp with some libertarian double-taxation-paranoids lately?
Have you heard about the standard deduction or itemized deductions? The reason they exist is so that you can and will pay OTHER taxes with pre-tax income. Did you notice that you had not deducted the $4000 in sales taxes and property tax from the 100k before you did the rest of the fuzzy math? I guess not.
That is for every dollar you make 59 cents goes to the government.
There's one government?
My total tax expenditure is under 30% a year, all in. All sales, federal, FICA, property, etc. 30%. And I make over a quarter million a year. 2/3rds of that goes to the federal government, the rest goes to the state and local governments.
As I have shown on numerous other threads, it is virtually impossible to pay a tax rate above 50% on income in the united states today, even if you live in a state with a high income and sales tax rate (say, California), do the majority of your spending on taxable items, and go out of your way to avoid deductions.
Remember:
1. You can not add state income / sales tax rates and federal rates. Your federal tax rate is calculated on taxable income, not gross income, and taxable income is reduced by the amount you pay in state taxes
2. Everyone has deductions. If nothing else, you have the standard deduction. If you make a significant enough amount of money to be in the higher tax brackets (28%+), then you'd have to be a complete fucking idiot to not be taking even larger deductions.
3. Social Security taxes end at ~$108,000. If you are in the 35% tax bracket, you aren't paying SS taxes on most of your income (nor is your employer)
Also, while you can calculate an annual tax burden, it's intellectually dishonest to treat property and sales taxes in the same way as income taxes.
What if I'm retired and have no income? Is my effective income tax rate now infinity?
What if I spend a large part of my savings during the year on taxable items, in excess of my income for the year? Has my tax rate gone up?
There are reasonable arguments to be made about tax policy, but trying to twist numbers and ignore facts to make it look like people pay more in taxes than they actually do is not one of them.
Sure sounds like slavery to me!
Are you really that uneducated? NO, THIS IS NOT SLAVERY. SLAVERY IS WHEN ONE PERSON IS THE LEGAL PROPERTY OF ANOTHER PERSON.
Saying that taxation is slavery renders the concepts of both slavery and taxation meaningless.
msilenus
2011 Mar 20, 5:20pm
Legally, yes. But economically, slavery is when the fruits of one person’s labors belongs to another person.
"EconPete" didn't use the immensely loaded word "slavery" to drag in the legal connotations, did he? Is the legal angle what outrages Kevin when it's used this way?
No. "EconPete" dragged this encumbered word in for the moral implication --to try to rub it off on taxation, rhetorically. That is clear from the place it holds in his argument. Now you're trying to cover over his mess by laying this "legally" straw man over it. It doesn't work. Arguments like "EconPete"'s carry a stench; rhetorically, linguistically, and morally, and that last pungent scent easily overpowers what you're draping over it.
Blithely equating the free citizenry of a great nation with slaves disrespects the suffering of actual slaves; such casual usage dilutes the aroma of moral repugnance rightly carried by that word.
Hint #1 is a sales tax not an income. .05/(1.05-.05)= .05/1.00 = 5%
NOte: actual income includes the money your company paid for your ss and medicare that is hidden from your income to make it look like your taxation rate is lesser than the truth.
What I'm getting at is that the government calculates income taxes by including the tax dollars in the calculation essentially lowering the percentage rate making it look like you are not taxed as heavily as you truely are.
If the government taxed income taxes the same as sales tax it would make it look like they are taking a lot from you, because they are. Instead they mask the true percent by including taxes in the calculation.
example:
tax/income = current way of calculation to show small percent rate
What it should be to be calculated the same as sales tax is:
tax/(income-tax)
this is the case because the tax is not your money in the first place, you dont get to spend it so why add that in the calculation when calc. ur tax rate? Because it makes it look like a lesser taxation, that's why.
Tax Quiz
Calculate the taxation rate (do in order)
1. Total Expenditure: $1.05 Tax Revenue: $0.05
2. Total Income: $100,000 Tax Revenue: $30,000
3. Total Income: $105,000 Tax Revenue: $5,000
4. Total Income: $105,000 Tax Revenue: $35,000
5. Look at example 1 and 3, is the tax rate equal? If not, why not?
Calculate the “Real” taxation rate
6. Total Income: $100,000 Tax Revenue: $30,000
Real Income: $70,000
7. Actual Income: $105,000 Real Revenue: $35,000
Real Income: $70,000
8. Actual Income: $105,000 Income Tax Revenue: $30,000
(“Company paid”) SS/Medicare Taxes: $5,000
Property Tax Revenue: $3,000 Sales Tax/Tax on Gas and Other: $1,000
_________________________________
Real Income: $66,000 Total Tax: $39,000
Answers
1. 5%
2. 30%
3. 4.76%
4. 33.3%
5. Because sales tax does not include tax revenue while calculating the tax rate. Income taxes are making you pay that same percent tax on the taxes you payed, double taxing you. All it does is look like the tax rate is less so they can take more money from you.
6. 42.9%
7. 50%
8. 59.1%
Yes they make $100,000 look like 30% tax rate when the truth is $39,000/$66,000 = 59.1% tax
That is for every dollar you make 59 cents goes to the government.
Sure sounds like slavery to me!
Note: I live in WI so that estimate for property tax is not inflated. Mean property tax is 2.5% of the homes value.