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A new financial system?

By SP follow SP   2008 Nov 9, 12:17am 11,063 views   88 comments   watch   nsfw   quote   share    

New World Order

Saw this on my rss feed from Yahoo/Reuters just now:
Glimpse into a new financial system

LONDON (Reuters) – Investors get a first glimpse of the likely shape of the new global financial system this week as finance chiefs prepare for a summit of world leaders fighting the worst world financial crisis in 80 years.

The rest of the article does not actually say what this "new financial system" is - just a vague statement about fiscal stimulus from the G20. Does not quite match the more ambitious tone of the title. Is this a case where the original article was whitewashed to remove the details, but they forgot to change the title?

In any case, what will the new financial system look like? I have heard all the rumors, and have no idea what to expect when the crooks get together behind closed doors.


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49   kewp   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 1:29am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

justme, maybe it’s the fact that I give the government $60k a year, and get barely anything in return.

Well, hopefully President Obama will spent some of that money upgrading our infrastructure vs. waging endless war and bailing out hedge funds.

50   sa   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 1:59am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

For now we will not have a T auction failure. As a perceived safe haven, US desire to buy alone s sufficient.

Last time I heard, there were numerous hedge funds from Cayman Islands that could buy treasuries for ever.

51   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 2:17am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Well, hopefully President Obama will spent some of that money upgrading our infrastructure vs. waging endless war and bailing out hedge funds.


Our infrastructure is just fine... just need some privatization.

It is quite likely that Obama will have to fight the Iran war.

52   sa   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 2:51am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Back to Topic: I don't think US wants to get involved in any kind of financial system till we get out of this mess. Getting involved will expose more issues over here.

53   HeadSet   ignore (2)   2008 Nov 10, 3:34am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Well, hopefully President Obama will spent some of that money upgrading our infrastructure vs. waging endless war and bailing out hedge funds.

Oh? Let's see if he really ends this war, and remember he voted FOR the bailout.

The 4 "third party" candidates (Libertarian, Constitution, Greens, and Independent) were the ones who ran on platforms of end the war and stop any Wall Street bailouts.

54   Malcolm   ignore (2)   2008 Nov 10, 4:34am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Brand, of course you are right in what you are saying. It is an attempt to get these houses off the books and to keep the property values up. If someone qualifies for the loan under normal conditions (real income with no more than a 35% payment) it is a good idea and may be a great way for some readers here to pick up a house that is easy to get in to.

Remember, it IS your tax dollars that are paying for the original defaulted loan, so the government is actually being smart trying to get top dollar for the houses. Now, like anything else, only buy one if the fundamentals make sense. It must be working though because when I put in my area, there are only a few homes available. That tells me they are actually selling. This program may account for that unexpected jump in sales activity that NAR recently reported.

55   Duke   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 4:50am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

I have had about enough of Mr. Mike Orange.

56   FuzzyMath   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 5:18am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

This is hilarious...


I love the realtor's response... that people are in denial, that they think their home is special, they think housing only goes up. Except, oh yeah, that was the exact argument the realtor used to talk the person into buying it.

And now, the realtors are fucked because they can't break people off the beliefs that THEY instilled in them. Ahhh, justice.

57   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 5:43am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

And now, the realtors are fucked because they can’t break people off the beliefs that THEY instilled in them. Ahhh, justice.

You guys watched this, right? (From Patrick's links)


Even Hitler is losing his shirt! LOL.

58   EBGuy   ignore (1)   2008 Nov 10, 5:47am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Hmmm... I thought this was interesting. Someone on socketsite posted that their minimum payment on their Alt-A loan is now more than the interest only payment due to the low rates (thank you Ben). While the minimum payment is still less than a 30 year amortization schedule, it does mean that payment shocks due to negative amortization caps (usually 110-115%) are less likely to happen. That said ARMageddon is delayed, not forgotten...

59   DennisN   ignore (1)   2008 Nov 10, 7:33am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

As usual, PJ O'Rourke cuts to the chase and kicks us in the ... whatever.


What will destroy our country and us is not the financial crisis but the fact that liberals think the free market is some kind of sect or cult, which conservatives have asked Americans to take on faith. That's not what the free market is. The free market is just a measurement, a device to tell us what people are willing to pay for any given thing at any given moment. The free market is a bathroom scale. You may hate what you see when you step on the scale. "Jeeze, 230 pounds!" But you can't pass a law making yourself weigh 185. Liberals think you can. And voters--all the voters, right up to the tippy-top corner office of Goldman Sachs--think so too.

60   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 8:09am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Tom McClintock was against the bailout and he is currently leading Charlie Brown on a razor-thin margin in the 4th District race. Let's all pray for his victory.

61   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 12:55pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

He has a plan?

62   PermaRenter   ignore (20)   2008 Nov 10, 1:07pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Now that housing has crashed, can I say that at work productivity will improve? I am saying this since for last eight years I have seen people neglecting work heavily to invest in housing (blogging, chatting etc).

63   slumlord   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 2:45pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

The problem is not the housing bubble but the reaction to it's demise. In so called "free markets" it happens. Also the USA is not a free market capitalist system, and maybe never was.

Another point is that one of the only things the US has had and the reason it has been strong is its consumers. Obama needs to create jobs to soften the downturn. But once its over start slowly taking them away....

64   thenuttyneutron   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 10, 3:52pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

How long do you think the market price discovery of all these assets can be put off? The shit that the gubermint is doing is just making the process more painful and prolonging the suffering.

66   FuzzyMath   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 12:16am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Dude, is AIG trying to start a riot?

They're like a fucking druggy that just can't stop. I'm almost ready to fly down there and clock the CEO in the face.

68   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 2:01am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Is this the future of Web 2.0?

That is Web 3.0, the new version coming next year.

The shit that the gubermint is doing is just making the process more painful and prolonging the suffering.

On the bright side, the downtrend will be more tradable.

69   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 2:03am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Yen seems to be advancing steadily again. De-leveraging continues.

Perhaps the post-election rally is just a fizzle?

Not investment advice.

70   sa   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 2:33am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Dude, is AIG trying to start a riot?

At least we won't have discussions about how tax payers will be making money from bailouts from now on.

71   FuzzyMath   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 3:03am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Welp, we all knew it was coming. And we all knew how idiotic the setup would be.


72   damenace   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 4:19am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

*renting saver with hand out*
"Where is mine?"

Seriously, how about just offering anyone with a heartbeat and a will to take on a mortgage for an over-priced house a loan at those terms? Oh wait... they already did that. Blow another bubble why don't you?

Not that the new plan will work anyways... it will just delay the inevitable until housing prices in the most bubbly areas (hello there Bay Area) become affordable. How much farther do some places have to go?

Besides you need to be 3 months behind on your payments to qualify for this... how many people that are up to date on payments (but with little or negative equity) will quickly fall behind on payments to meet the guildelines? Good job... encourage people to stop paying their mortgage. That ought to work.

So what are they going to do about the massive unemployment problem about that is quickly becoming disastrous?

73   EBGuy   ignore (1)   2008 Nov 11, 4:21am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

From FuzzyMath's link:
Indeed, Tuesday's announcement comes too late for Troy Courtney, a 44-year-old San Francisco police officer.
He moved out of his home in Mill Valley, Calif., at the start of this month -- taking his children, three dogs and one cat with him -- after failing at several to attempts to get a loan modification or a short sale -- where the lender agrees to receive less than the loan is worth.
Courtney worked overtime and tapped into his retirement account to try to catch up with two loans on his home. But in the end he couldn't convince Countrywide Financial, which managed the loan for Wells Fargo, to modify the loan.
"I feel like I missed the boat," he said of the new efforts to help more homeowners. "I'm just mad at the whole system."

I'm not sure why people want to put themselves out there like this. We don't know Troy and Lisa Courtney's extenuating circumstance are but here's what the public record says:
5/14/99: Bought property for $320,500 ($256,400 First, $64,100 Second mortagage)
3/16/05: Refinanced $630,000 Variable mortgage

Various judgements from different collections agencies on:
11/1/2003, 8/3/2004 (released after refi on 3/16/05)
6/11/2004 (released 8/17/2004)

I noticed on Craigslist that some nice 3/2 units are renting in Mill Valley for around $2500. I'm guessing that is significantly less than what their mortgage payment was.

74   HeadSet   ignore (2)   2008 Nov 11, 4:56am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

3/16/05: Refinanced $630,000 Variable mortgage

And the article says the Courtney's were paying on TWO mortgages. So apparently the $630k was not a combined re-fi of the earlier first and second, or they took out another loan after the re-fi.

"Extenuating circumstance" or not, your "rest of the story" kinda kills the pity parade.

Can't a cop lose his job due to excessive debt, judgements, and related irresponsibility?

75   HeadSet   ignore (2)   2008 Nov 11, 5:10am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

From Fuzzy's link:

More than 4 million American homeowners, or 9 percent of borrowers with a mortgage were either behind on their payments or in foreclosure at the end of June, according to the most recent data from the Mortgage Bankers Association.

That means that 91% of homeowners with a mortgage were caught up and still paying on time. Add to that the fact that 25% or so of total American homes have no mortgage at all.

76   EBGuy   ignore (1)   2008 Nov 11, 5:37am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

And the article says the Courtney’s were paying on TWO mortgages.
There was a Trustee's Deed upon Sale on 2/13/2008 for $69,292, which may have been the second (NOD filed on 10/16/2007). I'm piecing this together from http://www.co.marin.ca.us/depts/AR/RiiMs/index.asp, propertyshark(dot)com, and a whitepages lookup.

77   EBGuy   ignore (1)   2008 Nov 11, 6:44am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

News from Fortress East Bay. Still time to jettison the escaped pod...

Berkeley, Calif., known sometimes as a hippie haven, is becoming a hotbed for home sales.
Prices in the Bay Area suburb are up 9% this year, with homes selling for a median price of $790,986. Properties are sitting on the market for 73 days on average, the lowest of any area with positive price trends within the confines of the country's 75 largest Census-defined metro areas. Only 37% of sellers have been forced to reduce their prices, one of the lowest rates in the country.

78   DennisN   ignore (1)   2008 Nov 11, 8:21am     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Can’t a cop lose his job due to excessive debt, judgements, and related irresponsibility?

I know a bankruptcy or being behind on child support payments prevents you from being admitted to the State Bar of Calif. But it's more difficult if you already are a member and then do either of these things.

Either would get your security clearance stripped and therefore fired from a defense contractor job.

79   kewp   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 8:24am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

That means that 91% of homeowners with a mortgage were caught up and still paying on time. Add to that the fact that 25% or so of total American homes have no mortgage at all.

Exactly. Add the renter/savers with good credit to that list while you are at it.

Can someone explain to me why the rest of us are getting hit with a multi-trillion dollar tax bill to bail out speculators? Whom are probably tax cheats as well as mortgage fraudsters?

80   frank649   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 9:10am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

"Can someone explain to me why the rest of us are getting hit with a multi-trillion dollar tax bill to bail out speculators"

Don't think for a second that it's genuinely for homeowners

81   Peter P   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 9:12am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Thanks TOB!

Unfortunately, we are still looking at a coming food crisis. I would be very surprised if WW3 does not break out within 10 years.

82   frank649   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 9:28am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Maine Lobster is selling for 3.69 a pound (retail), down from $15 last year as consumer demand drops.

83   justme   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 10:12am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

The rescue of AIG is a scam. The point is that it appears more palatable for the pubic to rescue an "insurance company" than "wall st investment banks". Hence the troubles of wall st are transferred to AIG, which will be rescued by the taxpayers. Clever, is it not?

84   PermaRenter   ignore (20)   2008 Nov 11, 11:56am     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Bail-Outrage: Misuse of Funds, Lack of Transparency a National Disgrace

Many Americans are understandably outraged by the bailout fever that has gripped Washington this year. But even those who believe the bailouts are a "necessary evil" would have a hard time defending some of the bailout-related items that have come to light in recent days, including:
Financial institutions using TARP bailout money to pay executive bonuses. The firms, of course, say it's "different" money and bonuses are key to retaining top employees. But if you need to come to the government for a handout, shouldn't your executives forgo a bonus? Or shouldn't the government make canceling bonuses a condition of getting aid, as is the case in Europe?

The Fed refusing to reveal who received almost $2 trillion in non-TARP loans, or what collateral it has accepted from "emergency" loans made to struggling firms, as Bloomberg reports.

The Treasury Department providing a tax break to banks involved in acquisitions that could amount to $140 billion. The Washington Post reveals the change to the tax code was issued on Sept. 30, while Congress was debating the $700 billion TARP bill.

The bailouts are bad enough. But this kind of chicanery and lack of transparency makes me recall a line from another time when fear and deceit dominated Washington: Have they no shame, at long last?

85   PermaRenter   ignore (20)   2008 Nov 11, 1:11pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Trump Files Suit Against Lenders
Donald Trump filed suit against the lenders on his unfinished Chicago skyscraper, plunging the project into legal turmoil and highlighting the credit crunch's pervasive effects on real estate.

Mr. Trump is suing to extend a $640 million senior construction loan on the 92-story Trump International Hotel & Tower from a group of lenders led by Deutsche Bank AG and including a unit of Merrill Lynch & Co., Union Labor Life Insurance Co., iStar Financial Inc., a publicly traded real-estate investment trust, and Highland Funds, a unit of Highland Capital Management LP.

The tower, which contains 339 hotel rooms and 486 condominiums, will be the second-tallest building in the U.S. behind Chicago's Sears Tower and is expected to be completed in mid-2009. The hotel, on the lower floors, opened earlier this year. But sales of both the hotel rooms and the condominiums have come in below original estimates and the project's current projected revenue remains short by nearly $100 million needed to pay off the senior lenders.

The lawsuit, filed in New York State supreme court in Queens, is a further indication of the dysfunction in the real-estate lending markets as borrowers and lenders struggle to resolve troubled projects. People familiar with the matter say the lender group, which is made up of more than a dozen institutions, was unable to agree on the extension.

86   PermaRenter   ignore (20)   2008 Nov 11, 1:13pm     ↓ dislike (1)   quote   flag      

Bonuses for Wall Street Should Go to Zero, U.S. Taxpayers Say
U.S. taxpayers, who feel they own a stake in Wall Street after funding a $700 billion bailout for the industry, don't want executives' bonuses reduced. They want them eliminated.

``I may not understand everything, but I do understand common sense, and when you lend money to someone, you don't want to see them at a new-car dealer the next day,'' said Ken Karlson, a 61-year-old Vietnam veteran and freelance marketer in Wheaton, Illinois. ``The bailout money shouldn't have been given to them in the first place.''

Compensation at Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Morgan Stanley, Citigroup Inc. and the six other banks that received the first $125 billion of the federal funds is under scrutiny by lawmakers, including Rep. Henry Waxman, a California Democrat, and New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, also a Democrat. President-elect Barack Obama cited the program at his first news conference on Nov. 7, saying it will be reviewed to make sure it's ``not unduly rewarding the management of financial firms receiving government assistance.''

While year-end rewards are likely to decline with a drop in revenue this year, industry veterans say that eliminating them risks driving away the firms' most productive workers.

``There are instances where bonuses are justified, deserved, and in the best interests of the investment bank involved,'' said Dan Lufkin, a co-founder of Donaldson Lufkin & Jenrette Inc., the investment bank acquired by Credit Suisse Group AG in 2000. ``Your very best people are people you want to hold, and your very best people will have opportunities even in this environment to transfer allegiance.''

87   kewp   ignore (0)   2008 Nov 11, 1:19pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Unfortunately, we are still looking at a coming food crisis. I would be very surprised if WW3 does not break out within 10 years.

Dude, we have to pay farmers not to farm in order to keep commodity prices from falling through the floor. Food is not a problem.

Plus have you seen how effin' *FAT* most Americans are? A famine would do us good.

88   PermaRenter   ignore (20)   2008 Nov 11, 1:35pm     ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag      

Another day, another bailout: This time homeowners get to benefit from mortgage-modification programs, designed to stem the tide of foreclosures by making it easier for borrowers to stay current on their loans.

But the latest plans from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, joining banks such as J.P. Morgan Chase and Citigroup, hold plenty of risks.

Take investors in mortgage-backed securities. Modifications to mortgage holders' interest rates could leave some MBS holders with reduced interest payments. Forgiveness of principal, meanwhile, could lead to capital losses.

A bigger worry could be that these modification programs are too effective. In that case, "many current borrowers will wave the white flag of surrender and also try to get a modification," Rod Dubitsky, a senior strategist for asset-backed securities at Credit Suisse, wrote in a recent report.

The danger is that loan holders who otherwise could meet their payments would decide to fall behind to get their cut of the bailout. That could unleash a chain reaction that drives default rates even higher.

That means another dose of moral hazard. Federal officials stopped worrying months ago about that for companies, as they piled up bailout upon bailout to keep the financial system from collapsing. Now officials risk injecting warped incentives into the behavior of individuals.

If the programs take pressure off house prices, MBS holders and borrowers could both make out better than if there weren't any modifications.

But the financial crisis has shown time and again that it is tough to anticipate the unintended consequences resulting from attempts to quell the turmoil.

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