patrick.net

marcus says

Clarence, you say you’re a pretty smart guy. Are you familiar with the concept of debate ? In a debate, sometimes people debate a point of view they don’t even hold. Do you even know the position that opposes the one you are expressing ? Can you tell me, if you had to debate the value of unions (beyond the value to the workers they represetnt - which is a value), could you come up with an argument ?

Your tone is a little too condensending for me to formulate a reply...I have never "said" I was a smart guy. I said while growing up in Compton I worked my way up while my peers sat by worshipping Ice Cubes Thug Nation. That implies that I have determination, resiliency and a strong work ethic...not that I am smarter than you or anyone on these threads.

Since you believe I have no understanding of Unions, here are the facts:

Positive
Everyone gets a raise and benefits at the same rate as everyone else. There is no favoritism outside of tenured members which in fact is favortism should another employee be better at the job. The union will negiotiate a contract for all the employees so that employees don't have to negiotiate individually with the company. If you are having problems with management, you have a representative to go meetings with you so that you have a witness as to what has been said and how you were treated. You have representation under all circumstances. You cannot be wrongfully terminated without repercussions from the union.
Employees work together as a unit rather than individuals. The best part is just that you cannot be treated unfairly by the company or an individual because they will be held accountable to all the workers and the union. As a group you have clout against companies that would keep wages unnaturally low and not offer benefits.

NegativesIt is hard to get rid of a worker that is not doing his job or breaking rules. There is a long process that must be gone through that protects employees but makes it difficult for the company to fire employees that need it. Often the union, as a bargaining unit, is pushed to raise wages and benefits. At some point, worker's can price themselves out of a job, and it is cheaper to break the union and fire the workers or products must be priced at an abnormally high price to cover wages. (auto workers). Unions can be unreasonable to deal with and demands can put undue pressure on companies to pay unreasonable wages and benefits because all workers will walk out and cause a major disruption of services and financial loss.

Lets not be one sided in our views of the unions.

marko says

Here is a good one - school district is going broke - layoffs happening everywhere - no more college for you or anyone else in the community - yet the administrators give themselves raises in this environment - that is what the truth is

I agree. The board members, executives, directors and people running companies, city governments are just as bad as the Unions. They all want to protect their livelihood by any means necessary.

Just as a fortune 500 CEO will send thousands of jobs overseas without remorse, a Union will hold a school district hostage forcing cities like New York to employ hundreds of "lemon" teachers at a cost of 65 million per year. These lemon teachers are ones who have been proven to not do their jobs. I dont see how it is OK for idle teachers accused of misconduct to wait months and sometimes years for hearings while drawing full salaries at an annual cost of $65 million.

Clarence 13X says

Here is why holding onto philosphies of the 40s and 50s is a bad thing IMO:

1. She is not even willing the consider the business aspects of why the city was not able to provide those COLAS.

2. She is not focused on the true value of her current role, which is adding value to her skillsets in preparation of her next role

3. She has already made leaps and bounds in terms of salary increases and I am proud of her…but if she wants more she needs to find a way to add more value to the role so that she can apply for executive level support roles that pay top dollar.

Please, in your response, dont behave as MARCUS and KENTM have…I am really trying to learn and grow from others ideas here on Patrick.net.

It is not my intent to debate with these fools who see things from only one side.

I am missing something here. I havent read every post in this thread - just responding to yours.

Clarence 13X says

a Union will hold a school district hostage forcing cities like New York to employ hundreds of “lemon” teachers at a cost of 65 million per year. These lemon teachers are ones who have been proven to not do their jobs. I dont see how it is OK for idle teachers accused of misconduct to wait months and sometimes years for hearings while drawing full salaries at an annual cost of $65 million.

Public Education is much more bound by their own state laws and regulations than any union could aspire. Union contracts are to determine salaries, and other work environment items for each particular consituency in a given school district. Overall it is a myth that unions make it impossible to fire people. In most unionized states, cities, and school districts - hiring /firing is the management perogative and they can do it quickly as in having police escort you out the door. However they are bound by documentation and procedures in the LAW much more so than a union contract. Trade unions are a little different in that they do the hiring/firing in some cases

marko says

Public Education is much more bound by their own state laws and regulations than any union could aspire. Union contracts are to determine salaries, and other work environment items for each particular consituency in a given school district. Overall it is a myth that unions make it impossible to fire people. In most unionized states, cities, and school districts - hiring /firing is the management perogative and they can do it quickly as in having police escort you out the door. However they are bound by documentation and procedures in the LAW much more so than a union contract. Trade unions are a little different in that they do the hiring/firing in some cases

1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org.

http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports?id=0630&sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d8c33ad5d2f78c7%2C0

On the 100th Anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire
Little Has Changed in the Global Sweatshop Economy

Clarence's ideal, I suppose. Perhaps on your next holiday you can visit India and pay homage to the Hameem Fire in Savar, Bangladesh. Lets bust them unions and then bring that kind of factory management ethic back home!

Clarence 13X says

Did KentM on the low call me a Replublican

And for the record, I don't care what your party affiliation is, it doesn't matter. And I don't believe you're here for an honest open-minded discussion, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

I used to be against Unions, now strongly for them. Show me ANY human group that doesn't have it's stories of corruption and fraud. Like most do, I focused on those.

People do change their minds. However flawed, they are the last remnant of organized opposition to the plutocracy.

"1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org."

That's Michelle Rhee's website. I would take any info from there with a pound of salt.

Unions suck period. Coercing employers for undue gains and coddling politicians for special treatment so they can collude in a manner to "price fix" their labor. If a corporation does that, they're in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

Unions are worthless except to those who benefit from them, which is a small fraction of the working population. Public sector unions ought to be illegal. Their interests are in opposition of the public's general interests.

HousingWatcher says

“1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org.”
That’s Michelle Rhee’s website. I would take any info from there with a pound of salt.

You're really going to bash Michelle Rhee? FFS, she's the best thing to ever happen to DC schools.

klarek says

HousingWatcher says

“1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org.”
That’s Michelle Rhee’s website. I would take any info from there with a pound of salt.

You’re really going to bash Michelle Rhee? FFS, she’s the best thing to ever happen to DC schools.

@HOUSINGWATCHER

She got rid of all those LEMON teachers...what is wrong with firing the poor performers?

Vicente says

I used to be against Unions, now strongly for them. Show me ANY human group that doesn’t have it’s stories of corruption and fraud. Like most do, I focused on those.

People do change their minds. However flawed, they are the last remnant of organized opposition to the plutocracy.

I wonder how this applies with public unions. Opposition to plutocracy? Who are the plutocrats?

If somebody has a government job, they work for a monopoly provider of a service that has no possibility of going out of business, paid for by the public. And there is no investor class sitting at the top profiting from the fruit of their labor. Who is "management" in the labor/management relationship of public employment anyway? Am I, the taxpayer, the "plutocrat" from which to extract every concession possible?

MarkInSF says

Am I, the taxpayer, the “plutocrat” from which to extract every concession possible?

Vicente previously said

last remnant

Besides, who has more influence on the Governors that are trying to shut down public unions, taxpayers like you and Clarence, or billionaires and corporations that want to see lower taxes and also see labor (IN GENERAL) get cheaper here? And by labor I mean all labor. How can a corporation pay it's employees less, if they have the option of working for the government for better pay?

This isn't rocket science.

marcus says

How can a corporation pay it’s employees less, if they have the option of working for the government for better pay?

Unemployment and underemployment are what's keeping wages down. Very few people have a choice between a union job and a non union job.

It's not like public sector unions are somehow being paid by the plutocracy. Most public sector jobholders are being paid out of local taxes such as real estate taxes, sales taxes, fees and fines which hit working class and lower class people disproportionately.

Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer. The public sector unions look like junior members of the plutocracy.

Cook County resident says

Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer. The public sector unions look like junior members of the plutocracy.

Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50's which they will be paid another 20-30 years. (http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries-results)

And I asked for people to justify this compensation. Response?

Silence.

It's actually kind of funny. I mentioned this stat to my hair stylist a few weeks ago. She said she didn't mind, and that maybe hair stylists should unionize and get the same deal. I was thinking.... oh, great, you want me to pay $100 to get my hair cut?

"Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50’s"

Do you have a source for that?

"Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer."

That is complete and utter nonsense:

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/

"You’re really going to bash Michelle Rhee? FFS, she’s the best thing to ever happen to DC schools.'

Are you being sarcastic klarek? Did you not read my thread about the erasure scandal in D.C.?? Michelle Rhee has a lot of explaining to do about her role in "ErasureGate"

http://patrick.net/?p=654291

Here in NYC, our billionaire king just appointed a great schools chancellor. She has NEVER taught in a school in her entire life, and her solution to classroom overcrowding is BIRTH CONTROL. No, I am not making this stuff up.

Did money corrupt Rhee's school reforms in D.C.?

An article in USA Today raises all kinds of suspicions about supposed gains by a Washington, D.C., public school that reformer superintendent Michelle Rhee staked a lot of capital on.

The other possible contributor if there had been rampant cheating is the extreme pressure on staff to perform for a superintendent that had the school under the floodlights. You don't want to disappoint when careers are on the line, and people do desperate things under pressure.

http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/03/does-money-corr.html

HousingWatcher says

“Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer.”
That is complete and utter nonsense:
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/

My example was about "here" -- Cook County, not the Federal government. In general, Federal employees make less than big city local employees. So I am guilty of being unspecific.

But non-military Federal employees aren't doing too bad, either.

I don't see how Cook County workers make that much. The website below lists all salaries. Let's see: A nurse makes $42,000. An Assistant public defender makes $49,000. A correction officer makes $54,000. A deputy sheriff makes $60,000. Not exactly outlandish salaries. I mean, $49,000 for a lawyer? BigLaw STARTS at $160,000!

http://www.cookemployees.com/employees/by-salary/from/40000/to/45000

We have a similar website here in NY that lists public employee salaries, and our pay is MUCH MICH higher. There are Long Island Rail Road conductors making over $75,000. So Cook County certainly does not have high salaries by any measure.

How about the pay of a US soldier vs. the pay of a Blackwater "soldier"? That would be a huge difference.

HousingWatcher says

don’t see how Cook County workers make that much. The website below lists all salaries. Let’s see: A nurse makes $42,000. An Assistant public defender makes $49,000. A correction officer makes $54,000. A deputy sheriff makes $60,000. Not exactly outlandish salaries. I mean, $49,000 for a lawyer? BigLaw STARTS at $160,000!

http://www.cookemployees.com/employees/by-salary/from/40000/to/45000

There's no distinction between full time and part time employees on that list. You will also find salaries listed from $400,000 to $450,000. Most of the highest paid workers are doctors and administrators are at the County Hospital.

Here's a different listing, but in alphabetical order. I think an alphabetical sampling will look more randomized. There are several selections, one of them is Cook County:

http://www.bettergov.org/watchdog/payroll_database.aspx

We have a similar website here in NY that lists public employee salaries, and our pay is MUCH MICH higher. There are Long Island Rail Road conductors making over $75,000. So Cook County certainly does not have high salaries by any measure.

Some of our teachers are paid quite well, although they are paid by the school districts, not the county:

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=3042

Those are teacher salaries, not administrator salaries. Here's an old list of top administrator salaries:

http://www.illinoisloop.org/salary.html

The superintendent of my two school high school districts makes over $250,000. Teachers here start at 49K to 52K and the teacher average salary is $90,000.

MarkInSF says

Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50’s which they will be paid another 20-30 years. (http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries-results)
And I asked for people to justify this compensation. Response?

There is no justification for this as firefighters spend most of their time sleeping awaiting next the next call. 75-90K at most I would say. IMHO.

"There’s no distinction between full time and part time employees on that list."

I've never heard of a part time correction officer or deputy sheriff, so I guarantee you they are working at least 40 hours a week.

"Most of the highest paid workers are doctors and administrators are at the County Hospital."

Well, I should hope doctors are the highest paid consdiering the huge amount of education and money it takes to become a doctor.

HousingWatcher says

“Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50’s”
Do you have a source for that?

http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries-results

San Francisco, Department: Fire Department, Title :Firefighter

You can see the compensation of every worker.

Firefighters in SF, like in many cities are on a 3% x years served pensions

.....So it goes at San Francisco City Hall, where public-employee unions maintain considerable clout and claimed cost savings from labor agreements often end up smaller than advertised.

What it did: Amended the San Francisco City Charter to upgrade pension formulas for police and firefighters, allowing an employee who retires at 55 to receive up to 3 percent of his or her final salary for each year of service - up to a maximum pension of 90 percent of final salary.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=85037

HousingWatcher says

“There’s no distinction between full time and part time employees on that list.”

I’ve never heard of a part time correction officer or deputy sheriff, so I guarantee you they are working at least 40 hours a week.

“Most of the highest paid workers are doctors and administrators are at the County Hospital.”

Well, I should hope doctors are the highest paid consdiering the huge amount of education and money it takes to become a doctor.

My point was about Cook County employees, not just correction officers or deputy sheriffs, although the part-time Cook County deputies have been involved in several newsworthy scandals over the years.

The County does employ part-timers and the list does not distinguish between part-timers and full timers.

Silence. Yep. What I thought.

What? Scandals in Chicago? I am SHOCKED! Who could have seen that coming?

"even with our teachers whom have 3 mos off during the summer months"

Anyone who says this has never taught. It's a total pain in the ass, but at least the money sucks!

What state still has 3 months of summer vacation? We had that when I was a kid, but not these days. My niece's high school has 2 months off.

Jeb Bush was one backer of year-round schooling, and that seems to be the trend slowly but surely. Work harder, same pay or maybe less, and hey let's take away your benefits & job security. Who wouldn't die to become a teacher now? The opportunity to teach the same class 4 times a year instead of 3, for decades, wow that's a big draw. Let's drive down to minimum wage. Perhaps we can compensate by offering teachers fold-out cots for their classrooms so they have someplace to sleep, and let them eat the cafeteria leftovers.

How about we just forget about summer vacation, and slightly lengthen the winter one? After all, this nonsense about letting kids out for summer is a luxury we cannot afford. I think we should optimize around when the parents have the most time free to take care of them. Only give school holidays when there are coordinated work holidays.

And let's take away all seniority rights from teachers so that when they reach top pay we can replace them with cheaper labor! And on top of that, we can triple class sizes.

HousingWatcher says

And let’s take away all seniority rights from teachers so that when they reach top pay we can replace them with cheaper labor! And on top of that, we can triple class sizes.

No, what we are asking for is that the bottom 6% of the teachers are removed whether they have tenure or not. Today, we cannot even remove the bottom 6% of the low performers because they have tenure, even thought they have been proven to be LEMON teachers.

Vicente says

How about we just forget about summer vacation, and slightly lengthen the winter one? After all, this nonsense about letting kids out for summer is a luxury we cannot afford. I think we should optimize around when the parents have the most time free to take care of them. Only give school holidays when there are coordinated work holidays.

Now this makes sense.

CL says

“even with our teachers whom have 3 mos off during the summer months”
Anyone who says this has never taught. It’s a total pain in the ass, but at least the money sucks!

The days of making 60-75K per year with 3 mos of vacation should come to an end. Why is it that teachers should be treated differently than the remainder of the workforce when parents that work fulltime have no one at home with their children for 3 mos?

I say this respectfully.

"No, what we are asking for is that the bottom 6% of the teachers are removed whether they have tenure or not."

How do you know if a teacher is in the bottom 6% or the top 6%? What is your criteria Clarence? Test scores???

HousingWatcher says

“No, what we are asking for is that the bottom 6% of the teachers are removed whether they have tenure or not.”
How do you know if a teacher is in the bottom 6% or the top 6%? What is your criteria Clarence? Test scores???

No, do not advocate that we judge teachers on the performance of their students as the teachers in poorer neighborhoods would immediately be dismissed. We need to create a system of INDIVIDUAL and GROUP goals that weigh against their performance. Here are some alternatives:

1) Merit pay, in which individual teachers receive bonuses based on improvements in their performance.

2) Knowledge and skill-based pay, in which teachers earn permanent increases for acquiring new skills and applying those skills.

3) School-based performance pay, in which all professional staff in a school earn a bonus if students meet particular goals.

This creates a group goal, we do this at my job and if the group meets the goal we all get MEETS and EXCEEDS on our PA's.

I cannot vouch for the other alternative as I said because it would leave all teachers in the poor neighborhoods out in the cold.

4) Performance pay, in which teachers earn increases tied to improvements in students’ performance — typically measured by standardized tests or other criteria.

Clarence 13X says

No, do not advocate that we judge teachers on the performance of their students.....

Here is the funny thing I've noticed about teachers with regard to evaluation of teacher performance. Any suggestion proposed, they will show you a reason why it's not a good idea, (And most of the time I agree.)

But they they never come up with suggestions of their own. Not that I've seen anyway. You would think that they would be in the best position of all to know what a proper way is to evaluate teaching skills, or to improve the contribution they make toward the learning of their students. And yet all I see it them do is swat down ideas to come from others.

I have to say though, Clarence. I'm skeptical of increased pay as in incentive to better performance. Are you familiar with the candle problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Candle_Problem (Sam Glucksberg's version)

It's very much an unproven assumption that incentive pay actually leads to better performance. In fact in many fields (especially ones where creativity is involved), it's been demonstrated to have the opposite effect.

MarkInSF says

But they they never come up with suggestions of their own.

*snort* every teacher I know seems to have pretty strong ideas on the matter.

They are swatted aside as a matter of course by everyone concerned though. I mean only crazy people would let a bunch of self-interested parties for example give themselve raises. We would NEVER for example allow Congress to determine it's own pay & benefits amiright?