patrick.net

kentm says

No, you posted it to passively attack unions. I keep saying it, the main problem i have with you guys is you can’t ever simply be honest about anything.

I think I was outright attacking the Unions inability to reform and cease the gripes about how badly paid they are...not the laws passed by the unions in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

We just dont need them any longer due to the Federal laws we have in place.

Clarence 13X says

I think I was outright attacking the Unions inability to reform and cease the gripes about how badly paid they are…not the laws passed by the unions in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Unclear on the concept. If one of the unions primary functions is to negotiate pay for large groups, it's only natural that they sound like they are always complaining about their pay. You're familiar with the concept of negotiation right ? What do you think, they should say, our pay is pretty good, in fact maybe it's too good, would you like to lower our pay ?

Of course in these recent times, that's not that far from what they are saying. But in all those past years what you heard as gripes, was them doing their thing. As for reform, it will happen. How can it not. But it is a little slow.

Clarence 13X says

We just dont need them any longer due to the Federal laws we have in place

That is a very right wing view, and in my opinion...kent is right, you should stop listening to fox news or talk radio. I would feel like a wuss if I was always kissing the ass of the rich and corporate overlords. What, you think they are going to reward you for your loyalty ?

Self interest is the fascinating part of this. You do understand how different you would feel if you were in a union, like the teachers union, or any of the other major public unions. OF course you can say the reverse about me, accept I didn't have problems with unions before I was in one. Pretty much just had problems with
abuses and inefficiencies, which I still have.

marcus says

That is a very right wing view, and in my opinion…kent is right, you should stop listening to fox news or talk radio. I would feel like a wuss if I was always kissing the ass of the rich and corporate overlords. What, you think they are going to reward you for your loyalty ?

I have never watched Fox News in my lfie, I generally listent to NPR, CNN and read articles on the web to make up my own opinions. Unions have no frontier left to fight for as all the major pieces of work are now covered by federal legislation.

shrekgrinch says

like the liberal press did with Loughner (who never watched/listened to Fox/talk radio let alone Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh)

Really? Do you have proof that he NEVER listened to Fox or talk radio?

"This is just one of many examples of I have of how entitled union employees are, and how arrogant they are with their rights as a worker. She recieved a 22K increase over a 10 year period and has the gall to complain about how the 3% COLA increases have been placed on hold due to the"

How can one be arrogant with their rights ? That makes no sense. If you have rights, then you have rights. Why is that considered a bad thing these days ? And what is wrong with someone being successful and getting promoted and all ? Good for her - it seems like you are confusing the very high paid government admin people with the working folks. Here is a good one - school district is going broke - layoffs happening everywhere - no more college for you or anyone else in the community - yet the administrators give themselves raises in this environment - that is what the truth is

Clarence 13X says

We just dont need them any longer due to the Federal laws we have in place.

Clarence 13X says

Unions have no frontier left to fight for as all the major pieces of work are now covered by federal legislation.

shrekgrinch says

marcus says

That is a very right wing view

Then in this case the right wing view = the logical view. Blah, blah, blah, blah.....

You know what ? I'll stand by exactly what I said. Saying that unions are not needed any more, is a very right wing view.

Wow, I really went out on a limb on that one.

Clarence, you say you're a pretty smart guy. Are you familiar with the concept of debate ? In a debate, sometimes people debate a point of view they don't even hold. Do you even know the position that opposes the one you are expressing ? Can you tell me, if you had to debate the value of unions (beyond the value to the workers they represetnt - which is a value), could you come up with an argument ?

If so, what would it be ?

Can you tell me what the argument is that you are rejecting ?

Is it worth looking at both sides before forming an opinion ?

shrekgrinch says

The flawed thought process is: “Right wingers are all crazies” –> “therefore anyone who even remotely expresses a view point that [insert lefty name of person engaging in this flawed thought process here] thinks is ‘right wing’ must be a right wing nutter or is heavily influenced by them” –> “[insert lefty name of person engaging in this flawed thought process here] becomes thoroughly invested in not acknowledging any evidence to the contrary, let alone capable of even theoretically considering alternate explanations.

I never thought I could agree with you but you are right. For some reason, when I tout Obama as Lord and Savior I get major kudos, however, I speak down on one liberal ideal then I am all of a sudden considered an arch conservative.

This is good for all us, maybe all of us can learn to be more down the middle.

marko says

How can one be arrogant with their rights ? That makes no sense. If you have rights, then you have rights. Why is that considered a bad thing these days ?

My point is that she should be thankful as she has made huge leaps in salary in comparison to where she came from. Complaining about a 3% will do her or anyone else any good, especially when we are talking about a $1500 increase in salary. No one is entitled to the right of having a job....not even me. I am currently on the fence due to a recent acquisition so I am prospecting as much as possible for new employment. I am not complaining that the company is doing me wrong or that the leaders are screwed up because I live and work in a global economy where at any one point there are 100k jobs out there waiting for me to apply to them. I have gotten accustom to working in this new global economy where as older generations like KENTM and MARCUS have not. They see their jobs as entitlements where as I see them as 2-3 year stints whereby I can work on improving my skillsets in preparation of my next position/title.

Here is why holding onto philosphies of the 40s and 50s is a bad thing IMO:

1. She is not even willing the consider the business aspects of why the city was not able to provide those COLAS.

2. She is not focused on the true value of her current role, which is adding value to her skillsets in preparation of her next role

3. She has already made leaps and bounds in terms of salary increases and I am proud of her...but if she wants more she needs to find a way to add more value to the role so that she can apply for executive level support roles that pay top dollar.

Please, in your response, dont behave as MARCUS and KENTM have...I am really trying to learn and grow from others ideas here on Patrick.net.

It is not my intent to debate with these fools who see things from only one side.

marcus says

Clarence, you say you’re a pretty smart guy. Are you familiar with the concept of debate ? In a debate, sometimes people debate a point of view they don’t even hold. Do you even know the position that opposes the one you are expressing ? Can you tell me, if you had to debate the value of unions (beyond the value to the workers they represetnt - which is a value), could you come up with an argument ?

Your tone is a little too condensending for me to formulate a reply...I have never "said" I was a smart guy. I said while growing up in Compton I worked my way up while my peers sat by worshipping Ice Cubes Thug Nation. That implies that I have determination, resiliency and a strong work ethic...not that I am smarter than you or anyone on these threads.

Since you believe I have no understanding of Unions, here are the facts:

Positive
Everyone gets a raise and benefits at the same rate as everyone else. There is no favoritism outside of tenured members which in fact is favortism should another employee be better at the job. The union will negiotiate a contract for all the employees so that employees don't have to negiotiate individually with the company. If you are having problems with management, you have a representative to go meetings with you so that you have a witness as to what has been said and how you were treated. You have representation under all circumstances. You cannot be wrongfully terminated without repercussions from the union.
Employees work together as a unit rather than individuals. The best part is just that you cannot be treated unfairly by the company or an individual because they will be held accountable to all the workers and the union. As a group you have clout against companies that would keep wages unnaturally low and not offer benefits.

NegativesIt is hard to get rid of a worker that is not doing his job or breaking rules. There is a long process that must be gone through that protects employees but makes it difficult for the company to fire employees that need it. Often the union, as a bargaining unit, is pushed to raise wages and benefits. At some point, worker's can price themselves out of a job, and it is cheaper to break the union and fire the workers or products must be priced at an abnormally high price to cover wages. (auto workers). Unions can be unreasonable to deal with and demands can put undue pressure on companies to pay unreasonable wages and benefits because all workers will walk out and cause a major disruption of services and financial loss.

Lets not be one sided in our views of the unions.

marko says

Here is a good one - school district is going broke - layoffs happening everywhere - no more college for you or anyone else in the community - yet the administrators give themselves raises in this environment - that is what the truth is

I agree. The board members, executives, directors and people running companies, city governments are just as bad as the Unions. They all want to protect their livelihood by any means necessary.

Just as a fortune 500 CEO will send thousands of jobs overseas without remorse, a Union will hold a school district hostage forcing cities like New York to employ hundreds of "lemon" teachers at a cost of 65 million per year. These lemon teachers are ones who have been proven to not do their jobs. I dont see how it is OK for idle teachers accused of misconduct to wait months and sometimes years for hearings while drawing full salaries at an annual cost of $65 million.

Clarence 13X says

Here is why holding onto philosphies of the 40s and 50s is a bad thing IMO:

1. She is not even willing the consider the business aspects of why the city was not able to provide those COLAS.

2. She is not focused on the true value of her current role, which is adding value to her skillsets in preparation of her next role

3. She has already made leaps and bounds in terms of salary increases and I am proud of her…but if she wants more she needs to find a way to add more value to the role so that she can apply for executive level support roles that pay top dollar.

Please, in your response, dont behave as MARCUS and KENTM have…I am really trying to learn and grow from others ideas here on Patrick.net.

It is not my intent to debate with these fools who see things from only one side.

I am missing something here. I havent read every post in this thread - just responding to yours.

Clarence 13X says

a Union will hold a school district hostage forcing cities like New York to employ hundreds of “lemon” teachers at a cost of 65 million per year. These lemon teachers are ones who have been proven to not do their jobs. I dont see how it is OK for idle teachers accused of misconduct to wait months and sometimes years for hearings while drawing full salaries at an annual cost of $65 million.

Public Education is much more bound by their own state laws and regulations than any union could aspire. Union contracts are to determine salaries, and other work environment items for each particular consituency in a given school district. Overall it is a myth that unions make it impossible to fire people. In most unionized states, cities, and school districts - hiring /firing is the management perogative and they can do it quickly as in having police escort you out the door. However they are bound by documentation and procedures in the LAW much more so than a union contract. Trade unions are a little different in that they do the hiring/firing in some cases

marko says

Public Education is much more bound by their own state laws and regulations than any union could aspire. Union contracts are to determine salaries, and other work environment items for each particular consituency in a given school district. Overall it is a myth that unions make it impossible to fire people. In most unionized states, cities, and school districts - hiring /firing is the management perogative and they can do it quickly as in having police escort you out the door. However they are bound by documentation and procedures in the LAW much more so than a union contract. Trade unions are a little different in that they do the hiring/firing in some cases

1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org.

http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports?id=0630&sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d8c33ad5d2f78c7%2C0

On the 100th Anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire
Little Has Changed in the Global Sweatshop Economy

Clarence's ideal, I suppose. Perhaps on your next holiday you can visit India and pay homage to the Hameem Fire in Savar, Bangladesh. Lets bust them unions and then bring that kind of factory management ethic back home!

Clarence 13X says

Did KentM on the low call me a Replublican

And for the record, I don't care what your party affiliation is, it doesn't matter. And I don't believe you're here for an honest open-minded discussion, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

I used to be against Unions, now strongly for them. Show me ANY human group that doesn't have it's stories of corruption and fraud. Like most do, I focused on those.

People do change their minds. However flawed, they are the last remnant of organized opposition to the plutocracy.

"1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org."

That's Michelle Rhee's website. I would take any info from there with a pound of salt.

Unions suck period. Coercing employers for undue gains and coddling politicians for special treatment so they can collude in a manner to "price fix" their labor. If a corporation does that, they're in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

Unions are worthless except to those who benefit from them, which is a small fraction of the working population. Public sector unions ought to be illegal. Their interests are in opposition of the public's general interests.

HousingWatcher says

“1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org.”
That’s Michelle Rhee’s website. I would take any info from there with a pound of salt.

You're really going to bash Michelle Rhee? FFS, she's the best thing to ever happen to DC schools.

klarek says

HousingWatcher says

“1 in 2500 teachers were fired last year. Check out the facts on studentsfirst.org.”
That’s Michelle Rhee’s website. I would take any info from there with a pound of salt.

You’re really going to bash Michelle Rhee? FFS, she’s the best thing to ever happen to DC schools.

@HOUSINGWATCHER

She got rid of all those LEMON teachers...what is wrong with firing the poor performers?

Vicente says

I used to be against Unions, now strongly for them. Show me ANY human group that doesn’t have it’s stories of corruption and fraud. Like most do, I focused on those.

People do change their minds. However flawed, they are the last remnant of organized opposition to the plutocracy.

I wonder how this applies with public unions. Opposition to plutocracy? Who are the plutocrats?

If somebody has a government job, they work for a monopoly provider of a service that has no possibility of going out of business, paid for by the public. And there is no investor class sitting at the top profiting from the fruit of their labor. Who is "management" in the labor/management relationship of public employment anyway? Am I, the taxpayer, the "plutocrat" from which to extract every concession possible?

MarkInSF says

Am I, the taxpayer, the “plutocrat” from which to extract every concession possible?

Vicente previously said

last remnant

Besides, who has more influence on the Governors that are trying to shut down public unions, taxpayers like you and Clarence, or billionaires and corporations that want to see lower taxes and also see labor (IN GENERAL) get cheaper here? And by labor I mean all labor. How can a corporation pay it's employees less, if they have the option of working for the government for better pay?

This isn't rocket science.

marcus says

How can a corporation pay it’s employees less, if they have the option of working for the government for better pay?

Unemployment and underemployment are what's keeping wages down. Very few people have a choice between a union job and a non union job.

It's not like public sector unions are somehow being paid by the plutocracy. Most public sector jobholders are being paid out of local taxes such as real estate taxes, sales taxes, fees and fines which hit working class and lower class people disproportionately.

Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer. The public sector unions look like junior members of the plutocracy.

Cook County resident says

Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer. The public sector unions look like junior members of the plutocracy.

Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50's which they will be paid another 20-30 years. (http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries-results)

And I asked for people to justify this compensation. Response?

Silence.

It's actually kind of funny. I mentioned this stat to my hair stylist a few weeks ago. She said she didn't mind, and that maybe hair stylists should unionize and get the same deal. I was thinking.... oh, great, you want me to pay $100 to get my hair cut?

"Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50’s"

Do you have a source for that?

"Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer."

That is complete and utter nonsense:

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/

"You’re really going to bash Michelle Rhee? FFS, she’s the best thing to ever happen to DC schools.'

Are you being sarcastic klarek? Did you not read my thread about the erasure scandal in D.C.?? Michelle Rhee has a lot of explaining to do about her role in "ErasureGate"

http://patrick.net/?p=654291

Here in NYC, our billionaire king just appointed a great schools chancellor. She has NEVER taught in a school in her entire life, and her solution to classroom overcrowding is BIRTH CONTROL. No, I am not making this stuff up.

Did money corrupt Rhee's school reforms in D.C.?

An article in USA Today raises all kinds of suspicions about supposed gains by a Washington, D.C., public school that reformer superintendent Michelle Rhee staked a lot of capital on.

The other possible contributor if there had been rampant cheating is the extreme pressure on staff to perform for a superintendent that had the school under the floodlights. You don't want to disappoint when careers are on the line, and people do desperate things under pressure.

http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/03/does-money-corr.html

HousingWatcher says

“Many public sector workers here get double the salary of the average taxpayer.”
That is complete and utter nonsense:
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/03/scott-brown/politifact-debut-brown-says-federal-jobs-pay-twice/

My example was about "here" -- Cook County, not the Federal government. In general, Federal employees make less than big city local employees. So I am guilty of being unspecific.

But non-military Federal employees aren't doing too bad, either.

I don't see how Cook County workers make that much. The website below lists all salaries. Let's see: A nurse makes $42,000. An Assistant public defender makes $49,000. A correction officer makes $54,000. A deputy sheriff makes $60,000. Not exactly outlandish salaries. I mean, $49,000 for a lawyer? BigLaw STARTS at $160,000!

http://www.cookemployees.com/employees/by-salary/from/40000/to/45000

We have a similar website here in NY that lists public employee salaries, and our pay is MUCH MICH higher. There are Long Island Rail Road conductors making over $75,000. So Cook County certainly does not have high salaries by any measure.

How about the pay of a US soldier vs. the pay of a Blackwater "soldier"? That would be a huge difference.

HousingWatcher says

don’t see how Cook County workers make that much. The website below lists all salaries. Let’s see: A nurse makes $42,000. An Assistant public defender makes $49,000. A correction officer makes $54,000. A deputy sheriff makes $60,000. Not exactly outlandish salaries. I mean, $49,000 for a lawyer? BigLaw STARTS at $160,000!

http://www.cookemployees.com/employees/by-salary/from/40000/to/45000

There's no distinction between full time and part time employees on that list. You will also find salaries listed from $400,000 to $450,000. Most of the highest paid workers are doctors and administrators are at the County Hospital.

Here's a different listing, but in alphabetical order. I think an alphabetical sampling will look more randomized. There are several selections, one of them is Cook County:

http://www.bettergov.org/watchdog/payroll_database.aspx

We have a similar website here in NY that lists public employee salaries, and our pay is MUCH MICH higher. There are Long Island Rail Road conductors making over $75,000. So Cook County certainly does not have high salaries by any measure.

Some of our teachers are paid quite well, although they are paid by the school districts, not the county:

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=3042

Those are teacher salaries, not administrator salaries. Here's an old list of top administrator salaries:

http://www.illinoisloop.org/salary.html

The superintendent of my two school high school districts makes over $250,000. Teachers here start at 49K to 52K and the teacher average salary is $90,000.

MarkInSF says

Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50’s which they will be paid another 20-30 years. (http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries-results)
And I asked for people to justify this compensation. Response?

There is no justification for this as firefighters spend most of their time sleeping awaiting next the next call. 75-90K at most I would say. IMHO.

"There’s no distinction between full time and part time employees on that list."

I've never heard of a part time correction officer or deputy sheriff, so I guarantee you they are working at least 40 hours a week.

"Most of the highest paid workers are doctors and administrators are at the County Hospital."

Well, I should hope doctors are the highest paid consdiering the huge amount of education and money it takes to become a doctor.

HousingWatcher says

“Yeah, I pointed out a typical (not cherry picked) firefighter in SF makes $140K/yr, and retires with a pension approaching $100K in their mid 50’s”
Do you have a source for that?

http://www.contracostatimes.com/public-employee-salaries-results

San Francisco, Department: Fire Department, Title :Firefighter

You can see the compensation of every worker.

Firefighters in SF, like in many cities are on a 3% x years served pensions

.....So it goes at San Francisco City Hall, where public-employee unions maintain considerable clout and claimed cost savings from labor agreements often end up smaller than advertised.

What it did: Amended the San Francisco City Charter to upgrade pension formulas for police and firefighters, allowing an employee who retires at 55 to receive up to 3 percent of his or her final salary for each year of service - up to a maximum pension of 90 percent of final salary.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=85037

HousingWatcher says

“There’s no distinction between full time and part time employees on that list.”

I’ve never heard of a part time correction officer or deputy sheriff, so I guarantee you they are working at least 40 hours a week.

“Most of the highest paid workers are doctors and administrators are at the County Hospital.”

Well, I should hope doctors are the highest paid consdiering the huge amount of education and money it takes to become a doctor.

My point was about Cook County employees, not just correction officers or deputy sheriffs, although the part-time Cook County deputies have been involved in several newsworthy scandals over the years.

The County does employ part-timers and the list does not distinguish between part-timers and full timers.

Silence. Yep. What I thought.

What? Scandals in Chicago? I am SHOCKED! Who could have seen that coming?

"even with our teachers whom have 3 mos off during the summer months"

Anyone who says this has never taught. It's a total pain in the ass, but at least the money sucks!

What state still has 3 months of summer vacation? We had that when I was a kid, but not these days. My niece's high school has 2 months off.

Jeb Bush was one backer of year-round schooling, and that seems to be the trend slowly but surely. Work harder, same pay or maybe less, and hey let's take away your benefits & job security. Who wouldn't die to become a teacher now? The opportunity to teach the same class 4 times a year instead of 3, for decades, wow that's a big draw. Let's drive down to minimum wage. Perhaps we can compensate by offering teachers fold-out cots for their classrooms so they have someplace to sleep, and let them eat the cafeteria leftovers.

How about we just forget about summer vacation, and slightly lengthen the winter one? After all, this nonsense about letting kids out for summer is a luxury we cannot afford. I think we should optimize around when the parents have the most time free to take care of them. Only give school holidays when there are coordinated work holidays.