patrick.net

Real story. Moved to the bay area at the height of the tech bubble in 2000 with two school age kids. Decided to rent in a good school district for a couple of years waiting for the tech bubble madness to settle down. Instead the housing bubble starts. Decided to continue renting instead of getting in this rat race. Present rent is $2350 for a 4 + 3, 2000 sq.ft. house. Exact house across the street sold for 1.2 million in 2007. We need this school district only for 4 more years until the younger one finishes high school. We intend to buy a nice home just outside this top school district in about four years. Our present family income is about 230K.

By the way, our public school consistently beats Harker in many of the academic/science/math competitions.

May I ask you people so obsessed with these 30 K+ prep schools and their college placement records something? What are your career/life goals for the kids and their goals that justify this sort of expense/investment? I understand money is not everything, but easier to talk quantitatively in these terms and this site is big on no-BS ROI arguments. Is it an executive position in a bulge-bracket WS bank, McKinsey or BCG level MC outfit, C-suite in Fortune 500, a partner in big law, a supreme court judge, national politics? Incomes of ~300 - 500 K and up? Are those goals realistic with your kids abilities, motivation, and desires? I understand if so, but not otherwise.

I am in hi-tech, making over 100 K before age 40 with great benefits and everyone I work with does about so or a bit more to ~150 - 200 K. None of the dozens of people I know well enough to know that went to any kind of private school before college, and most didn't even go to good or well-known public schools. About half went to HS not in the US (I grew up in a Russian province, went to very basic Soviet school in a factory town, came to the US at age 22 with poor English and no relatives, money, or connections). So did lots of Chinese, Indian, etc. guys I work with. If they could do it, a graduate of an average US high school can. My wife graduated from the most dumbed-down HS possible with GPA of about 3.0 and went to the stupidest party-school state college for BS in nursing. Over 100 K easily (with some overtime).

Over the last 10 years, we actually had just one guy from an exceptionally well-known private day HS interning here. He was not hired on permanently though - too entitled and hard to manage.

I am truly trying to understand (esp. as I now have a small child)

Parents need to realize the best thing for their child is not necessarily the toughest school out there. Just look at what happened to some of the students at Gunn. There were multiple cases of students committing suicide by stepping in front of the caltrain there. Parents are now volunteering to "guard" the tracks around that area to try and thwart further attempts of suicide. While there may be a multitude of reasons that we may never understand, many speculate it was the pressure of expectations from well intentioned parents. We all want the best for our children, and we want them to succeed, but before investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and locking your child into a specific education path, I would suggest really spending some time with your child and find out what kind of personality he/she has. Once you invest in those top school districts, you're signing up your child for intense competition and pressure.

Menya...Invest in YOUR family and homeschool. Forget the treadmill to debt hell. Save your money in a CREDIT UNION ..not a bank and HOMESCHOOL your child. No "Buy Now" propaganda from the school board to keep tax money flowing into the system (Cistern). Most public school districts in California rely on property taxes...which are based on bubble house prices. Pop the bubble and public education gets the pain. You are responsible for your child's education...not the educrats.

Fisk says

I am truly trying to understand (esp. as I now have a small child)

Stick your kid in the worst school in East San Jose & they'll graduate Valedictorian. The problem is that when they actually attend our university system (unlike our K-12 schools, our universities are the best in the world), they'll have trouble keeping up with the rest of the kids there.

Because they're surrounded by kids that perform at less than what they should, they're not challenged to reach a higher level of learning...after all, they're getting A's in their AP Calculus AB class in 12th Grade, so they believe they]re the big dog on campus. They don't find out that they're behind until they attend college and find out other students were taking Ap Calculus BC in the 11th grade....all of a sudden they understand they were just a big fish in the little pond at their low API High School.

@Mark_LA

"If you buy, it’ll cost you $250k more in the good public school district (per your calcs). As long as the area you buy the home in maintains its high API scores, it will always be priced at least at a $250k premium in the future. When your daughter finishes high school, you can sell the house and get all of the $250k premium back, if not more. Then, move to the neighborhood with crappy schools."

Interesting strategy and way of looking at it, with the assumption that the school will make that much of a difference all things equal. I'll take the assumpion for now. In a sense, you are owning/borowing the home for 12 or years to get the benefit of the school. Might be a good idea.

"We all want the best for our children, and we want them to succeed, but before investing hundreds of thousands of dollars and locking your child into a specific education path, I would suggest really spending some time with your child and find out what kind of personality he/she has."

So true in Japan and S. Korea too.

Hi Menya , may I ask what line of work are you and your husband in? $115 K each a year?

I am 23 and want to go back to school.. to earn more

Thanks , lisa

protip: being a good parent is best. There is going to be even more lonely old folks at the home whose kids cannot be bothered to visit just like they couldn't be bothered to get their head out of their career back in the day.

My parents did all this crap for me and my sister, it worked for a time as both of us were honer students. We were also both Mensa, but that kinda had the ill effect of us seeing through the baby boomer spun college is endall and doing what we wanted, rather than what our parents wanted for us. If our parents actually raised us, rather than just sent us off to the 'best' schools without consent, neglecting us to their careers, I think we would have humored them a bit more.

My vote goes for crappy schools if the neighborhood is nice enough otherwise, at least you won't have to worry about too many reckless teens tearing up the roads.

Here is a little advice: You have way less control over children as they grow up than you think. Trying to plan out every detail of a child's 17 years of schooling is ridiculous on it's face. Having raised three PEOPLE to adulthood here are some thoughts:

1) Smart, motivated students will do well in any school environment as they are basically self-taught.

2) Private schools provide two things for the money:
A) Smaller class size
B) Segregation from "others"

Parenting by trying to smooth away every wrinkle in Muffy and Buffy's little lives is simply poor parenting. Eventually, unless you are a Bush, you are gonna have to mix it up with the hoy paloy.

To answer the question, rent the smallest and cheapest apartment you can find at the outer fringe of the public school district of your choice and save your money so you can have some fun in twenty years when the kid(s) are gone.

Parenting by consta

Move out of California is the best solution

danacebi says

protip: being a good parent is best.

won't happen.
being a good parent is hard.
buying an overpriced house in a good school district and letting the teachers take care of the kids is easier.

the sheeple have been brainwashed into thinking good schools are the answer to everything.
just like the sheeple were brainwashed into thinking home prices couldn't go down.

what's funny is that parents are so motivated to have "successful" kids, they have forgotten that raising your kid to care about people, have a sense of humor, a good attitude and great work ethic costs nothing.

these well-adjusted kids will have a much happier life than the over achieving, over ambitious alpha-dogs caught in the rat race of keeping up with the Jones'.
jokes on them.

Fisk says

I am truly trying to understand (esp. as I now have a small child)

I agree 100%. I am a graduate of a top public high school, ivy college, and top grad school. But in my profession (engineering) there is very little correlation between people's success and what schools they attended. I can't imagine any of the project leaders I work with giving a Harvard graduate any preference over a UCLA grad. Fisk is exactly correct that where the ivy schools help is in the 'crony capitalist' jobs like McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, etc. For my children, it will be public schools all the way. I will have great satisfaction if they go to UCSB or the like, have a great time and get good grades, and then move out of CA for their careers.

And on a different topic, I don't understand SF Ace's calculation. Am I missing something when I do the math?

2920+729+650-.33*(2200+729) = 3300/month, not 2500. Plus, for a loan >417k I think the interest rate is 5% not 4.75. I also think the upkeep estimate is a bit conservative, but probably OK for the first few years. Even at 3300/month, this should be possible for Menya to handle (although it will definitely be higher than rent on a 700k house) depending on what kind of lifestyle the family chooses. However, can Menya rely on 2 incomes forever? In this economy, and with kids, that's something to consider. I'm in a very similar income situation in LA, and am happy renting in a good school district for about 2500/mo. Just keep reading patrick.net, and you'll stay happy too.

here's my al-bundy polk-high story which might also add some perspective.

my buddy went to the top rated high school in our borough.
i went to the one of the lowest rated schools - bottom 10% of all schools in the province.

i aced all my courses (in the top 10 academically in the borough), got a scholarship, was accepted into all the universities where i applied so i had my choice of where to take my undergraduate courses(the engineering program i was accepted into is ranked 8th in the world). again i attended a very lowly rated high school but this didn't matter, it didn't detract from my education since i read the text books, did my homework and i can learn without being spoon fed.

my buddy, at the top rated school, was left back a year and had to retake courses. he had a hard time getting accepted into a university of his choice despite the school's stellar reputation.

does school matter? only very slightly, but what's much more important is the student's motivation, his friends and home environment. to blame the school for any shortcomings is just making excuses.

HousingWatcher says

Absolutely buy or rent in the good school district. If you buy, your home’s value will be less likely to fall than the house in the bad district.

What if in fifteen years from now the bad district improves and the good district regresses? It's all relative. The worse one has more room to rise, and the better one has more room to fall.

Live in the district with the best public school unless you have reason to prefer a private school. Your children will benefit from going to school with children of other "motivated" parents. Except for the current bubble, I would recommend buying, but I wouldnt buy real estate now anywhere, and certainly not in the SFBay area, since the air is still coming out of the balloon. I left CA in the 80s (was beautiful then . . .) and now live in the Philly burbs for the past 10 years; sent three daughters through nationally ranked public HS that is better than the private college prep school I attended. My property taxes? $5000 per year. And in this area, thats considered high. Would be paying 4x that in SFBay area. But choosing the school district is key. Good luck. You wont regret it.

Menya Don't overpay in Cupertiuno/ Mission San Jose- These are grade ghettos. I'm being told by lot of people that Indian and Chineese kids are tired of their looser parents always pushing them to compete, once they are on thier own they don't vene want to visit cupertino any more. Buy at a place which is more cosmo in nature.
Even thoough i afforded anywhere I bought in cambrian for this reason alone.

M, it's the educators, not the school. Have you interviewed potential teachers at each school? No disrespect intended but you are exhibiting wooley headed thinking with this approach to education. My kid graduated HS 2010 - small public high school, no athletic department (the robotics team had a cheer squad) and 90% went on to higher ed: state, UC, ivy.

when did it become fashionable to subcontract the education of our children? and why? what are young people learning at these schools? and when they finish, can they garden, weave, knit, cordwainer, sew, weld, work with wood, metal, glass, leather, wool, hemp? can they make and create useful articles which can be traded or bartered? can they milk a cow, sheer a sheep, make butter, bread, furniture, honey? i think you know the answer. in general, they all end up fucking useless, although some will be more sophisticated in their ignorance. when we give up the business model known as "the industrial revolution" we can move on to a society where we can, as john locke once said, value the true wealth in a man's labor.

jbidmt says

when did it become fashionable to subcontract the education of our children? and why? what are young people learning at these schools? and when they finish, can they garden, weave, knit, cordwainer, sew, weld, work with wood, metal, glass, leather, wool, hemp? can they make and create useful articles which can be traded or bartered? can they milk a cow, sheer a sheep, make butter, bread, furniture, honey? i think you know the answer. in general, they all end up fucking useless, although some will be more sophisticated in their ignorance. when we give up the business model known as “the industrial revolution” we can move on to a society where we can, as john locke once said, value the true wealth in a man’s labor.

I thought Chairman Mao died.

There's a lot of great discussion in this thread, more so because it's punctuated by personal experiences of the posters. I suppose I should add my $.02:

I attended the #3 ranked public high school in the nation (according to US News rankings), but I was not a motivated student and got mostly B's and C's in my classes. Entering university, I went to a 2nd rate UC school and in comparison to my high school curriculum, the courses were so easy that I got a 3.95 GPA my first two years. With that GPA, I was able to secure an academic scholarship and transfer to UCLA where I finished up with a BA. I was lucky, but it seems like there are far fewer "second chances" in academia than there were in the 90's and even early 2000's.

To bring it back to the OP's question, I think that it's very important to assess your children's ability before you decide to make such a cost-heavy decision. You don't want to sell them short, but if they're not the type to excel in a competitive, high-stress high school environment (like me) then I think that it's not useful or fiscally sound to put them in that kind of a situation.

It might not be a bad idea to rent in an area that's accessible to whatever school you are looking at. Then gauge your kid's abilities with regards to the school district and/or private school and then make a housing decision accordingly. Just my thoughts on it, good luck...

one of my former managers won't hire ivy league kids recently out of college.

they generally ask for too much based on their skill level.
poor value for the money, he says.

I think going with the area where the public schools are good makes the most sense. I'm surprised safety wasn't mentioned as a concern. Typically, the areas where public schools are better are safer. Sure you can send your kid to private school if you live in East SJ or East PA, just make sure you don't get shot on the way. The only one I can think of where the schools are crappy but the area seems safe is Willow Glen. I'm sure there are others out there, but it seems that good schools and lower crime go together.

Fisk, time has changed.

I was one of those FOB immigrant workers who excelled in my home country (top school top scores in my country) who started my career here after attending graduate school. My competition was mainly local Americans from very average high schools and colleges. Not any more for my kids. My kids are competing against offsprings of people like myself from their countries, and since we all thrived through education, we place enormous focus on education for our next generation. The Silly Valley is extremely concentrated with overachievers from all over the world, and there is no reason to think that their kids should be inherently mediocre.

Also, the mobility among classes in America has been going down in the last few decades. One of the few ways that are still open to worker bees (ok, some well paid worker bees) to ascend in the social ladder is through education. To be frank, education is probably the only way to keep them from losing ground.

I am not saying that I will pay $35K for private school, if my kids prove to me that they are really talented, that is how much I am willing to spend. Otherwise, a solid public school is the way to go. But if I do shell out $35K per year on private school tuition, I expect only the best college placement and the best career path to justify my "investment".

tatupu says: I thought Chairman Mao died.

he was assassinated by your handlers.

@chubbuni138016

I had a similar experience of going to a “top” public high school and through apathy not doing too well. Then finding myself doing better in college than top students from “lesser” high schools.

I felt that the tough high school gave me a leg up for when I was ready to apply myself. Even half-assing it, I think that my high school taught me a strong ground work of study skills that I would have missed out on if I had been an apathetic student at a lower ranked school.

So I think that regardless of the interest/ability of the child a top school is a benefit.

That said…

@OO

I know people who went to very expensive private schools (high school and college) and floundered their way into their 30’s without much career direction or success.

I totally agree that I would expect my kids to apply themselves and have direction, in their chosen career, if I was going to spend that much on private school.

Hmm... you missed one of the options ... buy 700k and go to private (immersion) school. That's what i'd do if i was you.

OO says

Any private school is way better than the best public school? I would beg to differ. Care to share the college enrollment data (particularly at high selective colleges) of these Catholic schools? I asked, because I checked, a total misery, worse than an average public high school. I don’t want to spend $15K tuition on a kid so that he can go to Foothill College.
Lots of private schools (eg. the chain schools that I won’t name the names) are VERY mediocre. I won’t send my kids to any private high schools with a tuition less than $30K, because they are just a rip off for what they offer.

@OO, How do you check the college enrollment data? I don't mean it as a snarky question. I'm really interested in this. Is there any website that makes this data available?

Schools are a reflection of the area and people that live near them. I’d rather spend more on a house in a good area/school district than some lousy area to save some on mortgage and pay through the nose for private school.

I have enough friends that regret where they bought now because of all the hassles driving there kids far to schools where they have to lie and use friends addresses, or paying for private. Not to mention when the kids are out of school your still in a bad area and have to keep your kids on lockdown or in the little pocket that might be ok.

onfence,

for Harker and various top public schools in the Bay Area, it is on their website, you just need to comb through the scattered data. There are some tricks though. Harker, for example, tried to inflate their placement data by publishing "acceptance" instead of "enrollment", because one top student can be accepted by multiple top colleges. Therefore you must compare apples to apples. For the cheaper private schools, they don't even dare to publish their miserable placement, but you can call them directly. My experience is, don't bother. Save that $15K and rent a bigger house in a good public school district.

So far, the best enrollment for the higher-tier colleges which range from the better UCs to Ivies are from (no surprise!), MSJ, Gunn, Monta Vista, Lynbrook, PALY, Saratoga and Los Altos. Harker sends probably only 1-2 more to Ivies each year compared to the top tier public schools, which is why I don't think it is worth the money. Harker also sends quite a few students to Foothill and De Anza, which to me, is a total failure on its $30K+ tuition.

So if my kids prove to me that they are indeed talented, I will be looking at Polytechnic, College Prep, or some boarding schools on the east coast rather than the overpriced, performance-challenged private schools of the South Bay area for my $35K.

Mark_LA says

Fisk says

I am truly trying to understand (esp. as I now have a small child)

Stick your kid in the worst school in East San Jose & they’ll graduate Valedictorian. The problem is that when they actually attend our university system (unlike our K-12 schools, our universities are the best in the world), they’ll have trouble keeping up with the rest of the kids there.
Because they’re surrounded by kids that perform at less than what they should, they’re not challenged to reach a higher level of learning…after all, they’re getting A’s in their AP Calculus AB class in 12th Grade, so they believe they]re the big dog on campus. They don’t find out that they’re behind until they attend college and find out other students were taking Ap Calculus BC in the 11th grade….all of a sudden they understand they were just a big fish in the little pond at their low API High School.

And so? I never had AP classes (no such thing in Russia then), and my wife has no idea what calculus is.

My point is that it's not that hard to get to ~100 - 150 K/year income (meaning ~250 K HHI) and ~1 M net worth by age 40 after going to very mediocre public HS and state uni. That's not even in CA, but in WA where we have a good-size new house on a golf course 10 min. from work for 300 K (with 2.6 K in prop. taxes) and no state income tax.

That's not to boast at all: many people do better, some by much. This is just what we were able to from the low start we had. No big deal, really: we daily read (some with indignation) about police/firefighters/prison guards/paramedics who pull in over 100 K and retire at 50 - 55 with ~80% salary in lifetime pension with COLA. I doubt many went to Harvard Westlake, did they?

Just need to: choose a stable practical career direction (such as nursing, pharmacy, engineering, law enforcement) early and stick to it, graduate quickly and start working wasting no time, have discipline to show up and do everything on time and as required to get good (not even necessarily excellent) grades, not screw with anyone, be willing to work over time/nights/weekends and move as needed, marry with care (not based on the length of legs or size of biceps), diligently save.

If your top-rated college prep HS leading to HYPS (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford I guess?) got your kids to a far higher orbit in life, great for you/them and you've invested wisely. Did it? If yes, could you tell us? Is it representative of their class?
I can afford 35 K/yr for my only child's HS education, in fact fairly easily. But I didn't get where I am in life (starting from a Soviet factory town, as I said) by spending money and time on frivolities.

And no, Mark_LA, our colleges (on average) are by no means best in the world. The top 5 - 10% of them are, just like the top ~5 - 10% of HS.
If you go from a low-tier HS to top-tier college (by virtue of athletic scholarship, legacy, AA, or such), sure you are bound to have problems.

In all due respect although I lean libertarian I can't see that much of a reason to go to a private school. To make the argument that any high school prepaires people for colleges and universities is iffy at best. It's hard to judge high schools on the same pattern because one could say it is the teachers and not the institution as a whole that does the educaition. I don't believe I had much for bad teachers while in high school (maybe one). While in college I find it laughable some of the arguments for private school as classroom sizes are small. Attention is there.

It can be argued that private colleges/universities often can have lower standards than public. What gets students in the door is grades and money. So in a economic downturn what does a private school do to increase enrollement? Lower the price? nope..raise the price? probably not..they lower the standards. It also can be interesting to see how some majors do in different graduate schools because it can be fire and brimstone. The very mission statement of some private schools isn't even education but other intents. Religious schools are fine but that teaches more to be a better Christian, Jew, Moslem etc. In addition if someone transfers from those schools into a non religious one there is only so many credits that can be taken. I've overheard a conversation by one that is a full year behind because religious classes cannot be accepted for anything other than electives.

FAFSA basically makes higher education cost more as it subsidizes the demand. If demand is subsidized but supply isn't it drives up prices over and over again.
I wouldn't bet on that retirement at 50-55 with 80% of lifetime pension with cola. Unions are dying out. I can pm you about something rather personal with that.

I don't mean to kinda poke but have you asked your kids where they want to go ?

Fisk says

I can afford 35 K/yr for my only child’s HS education, in fact fairly easily. But I didn’t get where I am in life (starting from a Soviet factory town, as I said) by spending money and time on frivolities.

good for you. You pretty much said the same things that ressonates with the indians, chinese, korean, japenese cultures or any other cultures, in which the people knows the value of money, who had a very modest upbringing, and wanted to achieve a better life.

Actually your kid won't get into the top tier colleges by being a Valedictorian in an East San Jose or Richmond school. It is in fact very hard for these Valedictorian to get into a top-tier college. I have a good friend who was a director of admission for a major ivy. She told me this is how it works.

HS needs to be calibrated, per se. Which means, the college will look at the former graduates from a particular HS that were admitted, track their performance in college, and determine how trustworthy a 4.0 GPA at such a HS is. The feeder schools, both public and private, are obviously "proven" HS with trustworthy GPAs. If a HS rarely sent or has never sent anyone into a highly coveted college, the GPAs and recommendation letters will be looked upon with much suspicion and discount. Hence, the top student from such a HS must prove himself in other wider-scale contests so that the admission committee knows that his stellar performance on paper is not just a reflection of how crappy his peers are. In other words, when Stanford looks like the applicants, a 4.0 GPA at Gunn is not the same thing as a 4.0 GPA at an East San Jose HS.

It appears to me this question is all about buying into or having a false sense of reality on both counts of education and housing. This is a real estate forum so I won't go into my views on education both public and private today. In my opinion it is this exact mentality that is precisely what got real estate and education into its current mess to begin with today. The last post by 00 such outlined the utter bullshit and gross manipulation and prejudice used to obtain a high priced ticket to a private university for a future that is not determined by it. There are many Ivy grads working regular jobs or no job at all. I have many Ivy grad friends who could not whip their own asses if their lives depended on it. So many other factors come into play for both housing and education. This forum may not be the place for this.

what you need to teach your kids is that whatever they do they should be completely confident in that.
They shouldn't feel inferior to anyone, neither they should feel that they are superior to anyone in terms of money, brainpower or anything else- They are just unique, God never makes carbon copies.

I remember this when i was growing up, some kids were extremely rich , some were poorer than me- I was somewhere in the middle. I learnt an important lesson to make right choices in life.
Some people live in shabby condos/townhouses or Busy roads just so that their kids can goto cupertino (or some other hyped up ) school but not me- I can tell you
these people are setting their kids up for an inferiority complex.

I'm not saying goto the crappiest of the neghbourhoods, Go live in some neighbourhood where schools are still nice (for example greater than 800 API)
but at the same time you can afford a home instead of a townhome. Infact years back people were not able to afford in Saratoga that is when they started to buy in
cupertino. I bought in cambrian for same reasons, safe neighbourhood and great schools (more than 800 API for all) but yet at the same time I don't have the stress
of a more than million dollar mortgage if i would have bought in cupertino- that means i can spend more time with my kids.

I would say again, Look in 95124 - It's a great neighbourhood and it's not overpriced.

cloud13 says

I would say again, Look in 95124 - It’s a great neighbourhood and it’s not overpriced.

yes, indeed.

There was an interesting concept about a group of like, education minded parents just getting together and moving to a lesser, school (living each in their own homes) and making enough effort to "raise the learning atmosphere" of the said school. This effect might in turn even have an effect on the property values...

Thanks chip_designer.

Where are you Menya ?? you stirred up lot of emotions. Give us fedback about what you are thinking.

OO is completely out of touch from reality.

SF ace says

very Google and Facebook recent gard employees are Ivy League, MIT caliber credentials with rare exceptions.

you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to facebook, google employees.