patrick.net

Move out of California is the best solution

danacebi says

protip: being a good parent is best.

won't happen.
being a good parent is hard.
buying an overpriced house in a good school district and letting the teachers take care of the kids is easier.

the sheeple have been brainwashed into thinking good schools are the answer to everything.
just like the sheeple were brainwashed into thinking home prices couldn't go down.

what's funny is that parents are so motivated to have "successful" kids, they have forgotten that raising your kid to care about people, have a sense of humor, a good attitude and great work ethic costs nothing.

these well-adjusted kids will have a much happier life than the over achieving, over ambitious alpha-dogs caught in the rat race of keeping up with the Jones'.
jokes on them.

Fisk says

I am truly trying to understand (esp. as I now have a small child)

I agree 100%. I am a graduate of a top public high school, ivy college, and top grad school. But in my profession (engineering) there is very little correlation between people's success and what schools they attended. I can't imagine any of the project leaders I work with giving a Harvard graduate any preference over a UCLA grad. Fisk is exactly correct that where the ivy schools help is in the 'crony capitalist' jobs like McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, etc. For my children, it will be public schools all the way. I will have great satisfaction if they go to UCSB or the like, have a great time and get good grades, and then move out of CA for their careers.

And on a different topic, I don't understand SF Ace's calculation. Am I missing something when I do the math?

2920+729+650-.33*(2200+729) = 3300/month, not 2500. Plus, for a loan >417k I think the interest rate is 5% not 4.75. I also think the upkeep estimate is a bit conservative, but probably OK for the first few years. Even at 3300/month, this should be possible for Menya to handle (although it will definitely be higher than rent on a 700k house) depending on what kind of lifestyle the family chooses. However, can Menya rely on 2 incomes forever? In this economy, and with kids, that's something to consider. I'm in a very similar income situation in LA, and am happy renting in a good school district for about 2500/mo. Just keep reading patrick.net, and you'll stay happy too.

here's my al-bundy polk-high story which might also add some perspective.

my buddy went to the top rated high school in our borough.
i went to the one of the lowest rated schools - bottom 10% of all schools in the province.

i aced all my courses (in the top 10 academically in the borough), got a scholarship, was accepted into all the universities where i applied so i had my choice of where to take my undergraduate courses(the engineering program i was accepted into is ranked 8th in the world). again i attended a very lowly rated high school but this didn't matter, it didn't detract from my education since i read the text books, did my homework and i can learn without being spoon fed.

my buddy, at the top rated school, was left back a year and had to retake courses. he had a hard time getting accepted into a university of his choice despite the school's stellar reputation.

does school matter? only very slightly, but what's much more important is the student's motivation, his friends and home environment. to blame the school for any shortcomings is just making excuses.

HousingWatcher says

Absolutely buy or rent in the good school district. If you buy, your home’s value will be less likely to fall than the house in the bad district.

What if in fifteen years from now the bad district improves and the good district regresses? It's all relative. The worse one has more room to rise, and the better one has more room to fall.

Live in the district with the best public school unless you have reason to prefer a private school. Your children will benefit from going to school with children of other "motivated" parents. Except for the current bubble, I would recommend buying, but I wouldnt buy real estate now anywhere, and certainly not in the SFBay area, since the air is still coming out of the balloon. I left CA in the 80s (was beautiful then . . .) and now live in the Philly burbs for the past 10 years; sent three daughters through nationally ranked public HS that is better than the private college prep school I attended. My property taxes? $5000 per year. And in this area, thats considered high. Would be paying 4x that in SFBay area. But choosing the school district is key. Good luck. You wont regret it.

Menya Don't overpay in Cupertiuno/ Mission San Jose- These are grade ghettos. I'm being told by lot of people that Indian and Chineese kids are tired of their looser parents always pushing them to compete, once they are on thier own they don't vene want to visit cupertino any more. Buy at a place which is more cosmo in nature.
Even thoough i afforded anywhere I bought in cambrian for this reason alone.

M, it's the educators, not the school. Have you interviewed potential teachers at each school? No disrespect intended but you are exhibiting wooley headed thinking with this approach to education. My kid graduated HS 2010 - small public high school, no athletic department (the robotics team had a cheer squad) and 90% went on to higher ed: state, UC, ivy.

when did it become fashionable to subcontract the education of our children? and why? what are young people learning at these schools? and when they finish, can they garden, weave, knit, cordwainer, sew, weld, work with wood, metal, glass, leather, wool, hemp? can they make and create useful articles which can be traded or bartered? can they milk a cow, sheer a sheep, make butter, bread, furniture, honey? i think you know the answer. in general, they all end up fucking useless, although some will be more sophisticated in their ignorance. when we give up the business model known as "the industrial revolution" we can move on to a society where we can, as john locke once said, value the true wealth in a man's labor.

jbidmt says

when did it become fashionable to subcontract the education of our children? and why? what are young people learning at these schools? and when they finish, can they garden, weave, knit, cordwainer, sew, weld, work with wood, metal, glass, leather, wool, hemp? can they make and create useful articles which can be traded or bartered? can they milk a cow, sheer a sheep, make butter, bread, furniture, honey? i think you know the answer. in general, they all end up fucking useless, although some will be more sophisticated in their ignorance. when we give up the business model known as “the industrial revolution” we can move on to a society where we can, as john locke once said, value the true wealth in a man’s labor.

I thought Chairman Mao died.

There's a lot of great discussion in this thread, more so because it's punctuated by personal experiences of the posters. I suppose I should add my $.02:

I attended the #3 ranked public high school in the nation (according to US News rankings), but I was not a motivated student and got mostly B's and C's in my classes. Entering university, I went to a 2nd rate UC school and in comparison to my high school curriculum, the courses were so easy that I got a 3.95 GPA my first two years. With that GPA, I was able to secure an academic scholarship and transfer to UCLA where I finished up with a BA. I was lucky, but it seems like there are far fewer "second chances" in academia than there were in the 90's and even early 2000's.

To bring it back to the OP's question, I think that it's very important to assess your children's ability before you decide to make such a cost-heavy decision. You don't want to sell them short, but if they're not the type to excel in a competitive, high-stress high school environment (like me) then I think that it's not useful or fiscally sound to put them in that kind of a situation.

It might not be a bad idea to rent in an area that's accessible to whatever school you are looking at. Then gauge your kid's abilities with regards to the school district and/or private school and then make a housing decision accordingly. Just my thoughts on it, good luck...

one of my former managers won't hire ivy league kids recently out of college.

they generally ask for too much based on their skill level.
poor value for the money, he says.

I think going with the area where the public schools are good makes the most sense. I'm surprised safety wasn't mentioned as a concern. Typically, the areas where public schools are better are safer. Sure you can send your kid to private school if you live in East SJ or East PA, just make sure you don't get shot on the way. The only one I can think of where the schools are crappy but the area seems safe is Willow Glen. I'm sure there are others out there, but it seems that good schools and lower crime go together.

Fisk, time has changed.

I was one of those FOB immigrant workers who excelled in my home country (top school top scores in my country) who started my career here after attending graduate school. My competition was mainly local Americans from very average high schools and colleges. Not any more for my kids. My kids are competing against offsprings of people like myself from their countries, and since we all thrived through education, we place enormous focus on education for our next generation. The Silly Valley is extremely concentrated with overachievers from all over the world, and there is no reason to think that their kids should be inherently mediocre.

Also, the mobility among classes in America has been going down in the last few decades. One of the few ways that are still open to worker bees (ok, some well paid worker bees) to ascend in the social ladder is through education. To be frank, education is probably the only way to keep them from losing ground.

I am not saying that I will pay $35K for private school, if my kids prove to me that they are really talented, that is how much I am willing to spend. Otherwise, a solid public school is the way to go. But if I do shell out $35K per year on private school tuition, I expect only the best college placement and the best career path to justify my "investment".

tatupu says: I thought Chairman Mao died.

he was assassinated by your handlers.

@chubbuni138016

I had a similar experience of going to a “top” public high school and through apathy not doing too well. Then finding myself doing better in college than top students from “lesser” high schools.

I felt that the tough high school gave me a leg up for when I was ready to apply myself. Even half-assing it, I think that my high school taught me a strong ground work of study skills that I would have missed out on if I had been an apathetic student at a lower ranked school.

So I think that regardless of the interest/ability of the child a top school is a benefit.

That said…

@OO

I know people who went to very expensive private schools (high school and college) and floundered their way into their 30’s without much career direction or success.

I totally agree that I would expect my kids to apply themselves and have direction, in their chosen career, if I was going to spend that much on private school.

Hmm... you missed one of the options ... buy 700k and go to private (immersion) school. That's what i'd do if i was you.

OO says

Any private school is way better than the best public school? I would beg to differ. Care to share the college enrollment data (particularly at high selective colleges) of these Catholic schools? I asked, because I checked, a total misery, worse than an average public high school. I don’t want to spend $15K tuition on a kid so that he can go to Foothill College.
Lots of private schools (eg. the chain schools that I won’t name the names) are VERY mediocre. I won’t send my kids to any private high schools with a tuition less than $30K, because they are just a rip off for what they offer.

@OO, How do you check the college enrollment data? I don't mean it as a snarky question. I'm really interested in this. Is there any website that makes this data available?

Schools are a reflection of the area and people that live near them. I’d rather spend more on a house in a good area/school district than some lousy area to save some on mortgage and pay through the nose for private school.

I have enough friends that regret where they bought now because of all the hassles driving there kids far to schools where they have to lie and use friends addresses, or paying for private. Not to mention when the kids are out of school your still in a bad area and have to keep your kids on lockdown or in the little pocket that might be ok.

onfence,

for Harker and various top public schools in the Bay Area, it is on their website, you just need to comb through the scattered data. There are some tricks though. Harker, for example, tried to inflate their placement data by publishing "acceptance" instead of "enrollment", because one top student can be accepted by multiple top colleges. Therefore you must compare apples to apples. For the cheaper private schools, they don't even dare to publish their miserable placement, but you can call them directly. My experience is, don't bother. Save that $15K and rent a bigger house in a good public school district.

So far, the best enrollment for the higher-tier colleges which range from the better UCs to Ivies are from (no surprise!), MSJ, Gunn, Monta Vista, Lynbrook, PALY, Saratoga and Los Altos. Harker sends probably only 1-2 more to Ivies each year compared to the top tier public schools, which is why I don't think it is worth the money. Harker also sends quite a few students to Foothill and De Anza, which to me, is a total failure on its $30K+ tuition.

So if my kids prove to me that they are indeed talented, I will be looking at Polytechnic, College Prep, or some boarding schools on the east coast rather than the overpriced, performance-challenged private schools of the South Bay area for my $35K.

Mark_LA says

Fisk says

I am truly trying to understand (esp. as I now have a small child)

Stick your kid in the worst school in East San Jose & they’ll graduate Valedictorian. The problem is that when they actually attend our university system (unlike our K-12 schools, our universities are the best in the world), they’ll have trouble keeping up with the rest of the kids there.
Because they’re surrounded by kids that perform at less than what they should, they’re not challenged to reach a higher level of learning…after all, they’re getting A’s in their AP Calculus AB class in 12th Grade, so they believe they]re the big dog on campus. They don’t find out that they’re behind until they attend college and find out other students were taking Ap Calculus BC in the 11th grade….all of a sudden they understand they were just a big fish in the little pond at their low API High School.

And so? I never had AP classes (no such thing in Russia then), and my wife has no idea what calculus is.

My point is that it's not that hard to get to ~100 - 150 K/year income (meaning ~250 K HHI) and ~1 M net worth by age 40 after going to very mediocre public HS and state uni. That's not even in CA, but in WA where we have a good-size new house on a golf course 10 min. from work for 300 K (with 2.6 K in prop. taxes) and no state income tax.

That's not to boast at all: many people do better, some by much. This is just what we were able to from the low start we had. No big deal, really: we daily read (some with indignation) about police/firefighters/prison guards/paramedics who pull in over 100 K and retire at 50 - 55 with ~80% salary in lifetime pension with COLA. I doubt many went to Harvard Westlake, did they?

Just need to: choose a stable practical career direction (such as nursing, pharmacy, engineering, law enforcement) early and stick to it, graduate quickly and start working wasting no time, have discipline to show up and do everything on time and as required to get good (not even necessarily excellent) grades, not screw with anyone, be willing to work over time/nights/weekends and move as needed, marry with care (not based on the length of legs or size of biceps), diligently save.

If your top-rated college prep HS leading to HYPS (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford I guess?) got your kids to a far higher orbit in life, great for you/them and you've invested wisely. Did it? If yes, could you tell us? Is it representative of their class?
I can afford 35 K/yr for my only child's HS education, in fact fairly easily. But I didn't get where I am in life (starting from a Soviet factory town, as I said) by spending money and time on frivolities.

And no, Mark_LA, our colleges (on average) are by no means best in the world. The top 5 - 10% of them are, just like the top ~5 - 10% of HS.
If you go from a low-tier HS to top-tier college (by virtue of athletic scholarship, legacy, AA, or such), sure you are bound to have problems.

In all due respect although I lean libertarian I can't see that much of a reason to go to a private school. To make the argument that any high school prepaires people for colleges and universities is iffy at best. It's hard to judge high schools on the same pattern because one could say it is the teachers and not the institution as a whole that does the educaition. I don't believe I had much for bad teachers while in high school (maybe one). While in college I find it laughable some of the arguments for private school as classroom sizes are small. Attention is there.

It can be argued that private colleges/universities often can have lower standards than public. What gets students in the door is grades and money. So in a economic downturn what does a private school do to increase enrollement? Lower the price? nope..raise the price? probably not..they lower the standards. It also can be interesting to see how some majors do in different graduate schools because it can be fire and brimstone. The very mission statement of some private schools isn't even education but other intents. Religious schools are fine but that teaches more to be a better Christian, Jew, Moslem etc. In addition if someone transfers from those schools into a non religious one there is only so many credits that can be taken. I've overheard a conversation by one that is a full year behind because religious classes cannot be accepted for anything other than electives.

FAFSA basically makes higher education cost more as it subsidizes the demand. If demand is subsidized but supply isn't it drives up prices over and over again.
I wouldn't bet on that retirement at 50-55 with 80% of lifetime pension with cola. Unions are dying out. I can pm you about something rather personal with that.

I don't mean to kinda poke but have you asked your kids where they want to go ?

Fisk says

I can afford 35 K/yr for my only child’s HS education, in fact fairly easily. But I didn’t get where I am in life (starting from a Soviet factory town, as I said) by spending money and time on frivolities.

good for you. You pretty much said the same things that ressonates with the indians, chinese, korean, japenese cultures or any other cultures, in which the people knows the value of money, who had a very modest upbringing, and wanted to achieve a better life.

Actually your kid won't get into the top tier colleges by being a Valedictorian in an East San Jose or Richmond school. It is in fact very hard for these Valedictorian to get into a top-tier college. I have a good friend who was a director of admission for a major ivy. She told me this is how it works.

HS needs to be calibrated, per se. Which means, the college will look at the former graduates from a particular HS that were admitted, track their performance in college, and determine how trustworthy a 4.0 GPA at such a HS is. The feeder schools, both public and private, are obviously "proven" HS with trustworthy GPAs. If a HS rarely sent or has never sent anyone into a highly coveted college, the GPAs and recommendation letters will be looked upon with much suspicion and discount. Hence, the top student from such a HS must prove himself in other wider-scale contests so that the admission committee knows that his stellar performance on paper is not just a reflection of how crappy his peers are. In other words, when Stanford looks like the applicants, a 4.0 GPA at Gunn is not the same thing as a 4.0 GPA at an East San Jose HS.

It appears to me this question is all about buying into or having a false sense of reality on both counts of education and housing. This is a real estate forum so I won't go into my views on education both public and private today. In my opinion it is this exact mentality that is precisely what got real estate and education into its current mess to begin with today. The last post by 00 such outlined the utter bullshit and gross manipulation and prejudice used to obtain a high priced ticket to a private university for a future that is not determined by it. There are many Ivy grads working regular jobs or no job at all. I have many Ivy grad friends who could not whip their own asses if their lives depended on it. So many other factors come into play for both housing and education. This forum may not be the place for this.

what you need to teach your kids is that whatever they do they should be completely confident in that.
They shouldn't feel inferior to anyone, neither they should feel that they are superior to anyone in terms of money, brainpower or anything else- They are just unique, God never makes carbon copies.

I remember this when i was growing up, some kids were extremely rich , some were poorer than me- I was somewhere in the middle. I learnt an important lesson to make right choices in life.
Some people live in shabby condos/townhouses or Busy roads just so that their kids can goto cupertino (or some other hyped up ) school but not me- I can tell you
these people are setting their kids up for an inferiority complex.

I'm not saying goto the crappiest of the neghbourhoods, Go live in some neighbourhood where schools are still nice (for example greater than 800 API)
but at the same time you can afford a home instead of a townhome. Infact years back people were not able to afford in Saratoga that is when they started to buy in
cupertino. I bought in cambrian for same reasons, safe neighbourhood and great schools (more than 800 API for all) but yet at the same time I don't have the stress
of a more than million dollar mortgage if i would have bought in cupertino- that means i can spend more time with my kids.

I would say again, Look in 95124 - It's a great neighbourhood and it's not overpriced.

cloud13 says

I would say again, Look in 95124 - It’s a great neighbourhood and it’s not overpriced.

yes, indeed.

There was an interesting concept about a group of like, education minded parents just getting together and moving to a lesser, school (living each in their own homes) and making enough effort to "raise the learning atmosphere" of the said school. This effect might in turn even have an effect on the property values...

Thanks chip_designer.

Where are you Menya ?? you stirred up lot of emotions. Give us fedback about what you are thinking.

OO is completely out of touch from reality.

SF ace says

very Google and Facebook recent gard employees are Ivy League, MIT caliber credentials with rare exceptions.

you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to facebook, google employees.

SF ace says

* Employers are a lot pickier now than 10 years ago. 10 years ago, medicore education credential led to a decent start and subsequently you can do the right things to advance in your career. Today, that mediocre credentials don’t even get a look at the resume screener. In 10-20 years, I expect things to be even more competitive. Don’t look at your 40 something colleague going to a second tier college as inspiration, every Google and Facebook recent gard employees are Ivy League, MIT caliber credentials with rare exceptions. This is going to spill over to other major corporations doing high level work.

Bullshit! for a bunch of medicore employees from 70s-80s-90s did far better creating 400+ public companies
than the snubish pricks from Ivy Leage and MIT anyday.

What do you have to call your own.. Advertising companies !! FB and Google Wow im impressed!

SF Ace, you want to feel unique with high self-esteem , i would never want that my kid is the wost in thier peers- it's a recipe for disaster.

SF ace says

San Jose State relative to Stanford is not.

You have no idea what your talking about. SV workers back than and even today are mainly SJSU grads. SJSU did far more putting many professionals into the SV from Engineering to Marketing, Production and Finance. And they still do today.

Your gonna compare some arrogant prick ass snob advertising and gaming companies to the vast number of serious hardware and software industries that created the technology/information revolution which were run by grads from local medicore universities.

Is that what your saying! Like I said Impress me!

we are digressing from the topic :

Should you be crazy about 900+ API or anything above 800 is considered good ?

I think 800+ proves that school is good enough and then it's upto the students and parents to do the rest. Everything else is a hype.

bearishbull says

I don’t know what SF Ace is smoking, but most of my colleagues now do not have Ivy League degrees

thank you for bringing a little common sense to this thread.

* Employers are a lot pickier now than 10 years ago. 10 years ago, medicore education credential led to a decent start and subsequently you can do the right things to advance in your career. Today, that mediocre credentials don’t even get a look at the resume screener. In 10-20 years, I expect things to be even more competitive. Don’t look at your 40 something colleague going to a second tier college as inspiration, every Google and Facebook recent gard employees are Ivy League, MIT caliber credentials with rare exceptions. This is going to spill over to other major corporations and professional firms doing high level work."

SF you are all over the place here. I've only seen one employer even ask for a GPA and then I searched about them and the vast majority of the information was negative (they offered me a job and to pay for relocation to the midwest). I emailed them to address the concerns brought up in said websites but as of yet they haven't.

Employers can be picky but I think you are taking this into a different direction. This is what I see already
Drug tests - since the 80's this has been true. In a sense all of the hippies of the 60's and 70's had to clean up to get jobs

Background checks - have you been involved in a crime? That can kill you economically

Credit checks (some states have made this illegal) - those that owe money are more likely to steal than ones that don't have debt. Which means they might actually be less likely to get a job. Educational loans are economic death sentences.

Sometimes times can change. I went to a school where the accrediations were a bit iffy. Then they changed..BOOM! All of the schools in the state would now take their credits..it was that simple.

I will admit that Google is the only company I've seen that has a Ph.d for a requirement but they never specifically stated from what school.

"I really articulate the point unclearly."

I think you meant "I really articulateD the point unclearly"

The other thing to remember is that many good professors at ivy league schools and others are adjuct and teach at other schools. I've had one twice that also teaches at MIT. Does anyone honestly think he makes things harder just because it is ivy league? Certainly it is more dependent on the level (102 classes 205, 340, 420 class etc) then the institution.

The comradery that people have with higher education usually goes like this.
"So you went to xyz....what professors did you have"

To discount the professors is to totally discount the entire degree. I have much more in common with actual classmates then people that were not in my classes but in the same graduation year.

As for Facebook they are private and there's no legal obligation for them to tell the truth in terms of how much they make. They might not be making a profit. I don't know anyone that has bought anything from facebook...plenty from amazon. Besides every few years the sites change..first collegeclub..then friendster...then myspace..then facebook and now linked in and disporia

Menya ,
what do you think ?

More people , please come forward and share your thoughts.