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FortWayne
2011 Apr 3, 1:59pm
in a perfect world, if you were to build a school from the bottom up, what would you do differently?
not have collective bargaining, and create a system where different enterprises compete for kids education making education better due to competition. And no tenure ever or pension spiking, reward based on success of the student.
Free market competition would absolutely surpass our current single monopoly expensive socialism.
elliemae
2011 Apr 3, 2:05pm
Actually, ChrisLA, that was my question.
And I really like your answer.
marcus
2011 Apr 3, 2:14pm
And I really like your answer.
Yes. Impressive indeed. That ChrisLA is brilliant. Simple answers ROCK. We need more republican deep thinkers like ChrisLA.
We have no idea what we would get, or even whether by the time that it sort of worked, whether it would actually cost less. But hey, free market competition works well for health care, let's try it for education too.
I can't even go there, but here's a little to think about Chris. Who takes the English language learners and the special ed kids ? Do you send them off to their own special schools. Do you make sure all of these competing schools take their share of kids that will make their competitive stats look bad ?
Did you read a lot about the problem before having your breakthrough ?
The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.
marcus
2011 Apr 3, 2:33pm
The one last vestige of upward mobility, that sort of still exists, is the opportunity that comes from public education. There are great neighborhoods around every major city where apartments can be rented putting a family who really wants it, in to great public schools. It's not easy, and it involves some awareness and sacrifice on the part of parents. But it's a system that is still working.
Only an ignorant fool would say that it needs to be totally replaced.
marcus says
The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.
Free market competition would absolutely surpass our current single monopoly expensive socialism.
I'm not sure what evidence you're basing that on. I look at the best educated kids around the world (Korea, Finland, Canada, New Zealand, etc....), and they're all in countries that have public education systems.
Perhaps you could provide an example of a country where free market competition has worked for K-12 education?
Vicente
2011 Apr 3, 4:03pm
WHoops, FAIL!
Students who received vouchers to attend private or religious schools in Milwaukee performed worse on statewide reading and math tests than their counterparts in public schools, according to test scores released Tuesday that could play an integral role in whether the program expands statewide.
The results, released by the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, show that while scores statewide are improving, voucher students are nowhere near their public school counterparts — even in the Milwaukee public schools they left.
Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/2011/03/results-show-wis-voucher-students-test-poorly#ixzz1IX0Xe0v1
Vicente
2011 Apr 3, 4:10pm
The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.
This is exactly like the majority of people think Congress is a den of vipers, yet keep re-electing THEIR upstanding representative every cycle. My god .... we're idiots!
elliemae
2011 Apr 3, 8:35pm
Marcus, I asked what you would do differently and:
I don’t have time to answer that.
ChrisLA did have time to answer, and yes - it was simplistic. But it was an answer instead of a "hit & run, gotta go 'cause I'm much too busy for this" comment.
Yes. Impressive indeed. That ChrisLA is brilliant. Simple answers ROCK. We need more republican deep thinkers like ChrisLA...Only an ignorant fool would say that it (the education system) needs to be totally replaced.
We're not questioning whether teachers are necessary - but we are questioning the current system in many different parts of the country. If you'd like to actually answer my question instead of merely criticizing other's answers, I'm still waiting.
Cook County resident
2011 Apr 3, 9:46pm
This is exactly like the majority of people think Congress is a den of vipers, yet keep re-electing THEIR upstanding representative every cycle. My god …. we’re idiots!
Don't discount political collusion in the continual congressional reelections. Around here, the districts are tortuously gerrymandered and independent parties face far higher hurdles to getting on the ballot, all for the benefit of the Republicrat party.
Over the last 20 years, this district has been represented by Dan Rostenkowski, Rod Blagojevich and Rahm Emanuel.
The Red Team of the Republicrat party is sometimes so lazy and complacent that they don't even run token opposition against their Blue Team brothers. Presumably, the Blue Team returns the favor elsewhere.
My favorite example comes from around 20 years ago, when some political outsider got himself on the ballot as the Republican candidate against Dan Rostenkowski. His campaign consisted of talking to a few reporters on the phone, putting up some flyers and changing his middle name to "Non-incumbent".
Non-incumbent pulled almost 40% of the vote against the "unbeatable" Dan Rostenkowski.
marcus
2011 Apr 4, 10:52am
Marcus, I asked what you would do differently and:
marcus says
I don’t have time to answer that.
ChrisLA did have time to answer, and yes - it was simplistic. But it was an answer instead of a “hit & run, gotta go ’cause I’m much too busy for this†comment.
If you had asked me for the story of my life, I would have also said, I don't have time to answer that. Not because I am being 'hit and run.' But because I have a lot of thoughts about this and I'm not going to distill them down to a sound bite or even down to a couple of paragraphs. Sorry. I get it that you feel entitled to an answer (or maybe just justified in bugging me for not answering what I consider a huge question). Can't help you with that.
From the style of how you asked ( "I'm still waitng") it's almost as if you forgot which hat you had on.
Vicente
2011 Apr 4, 1:27pm
Simple answer for people who want sound bites:
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Look at the where all the money in the economy has shifted in the last 30 years.
Anyone who thinks the Unions are the ones hoovering up all the money, and that's why you are pinching pennies, is frankly deluded. Unions and their corresponding costs and entitlements, are at historic lows.
People who focus like a laser on unions, remind of some nitwits I know with severe money troubles, who think they can fix it by brown-bagging their lunch.
elliemae
2011 Apr 6, 5:20pm
If you had asked me for the story of my life, I would have also said, I don’t have time to answer that
You can rest assured that I am not interested in reading the story of your life - and that, contrary to your assertion, I don't feel "entitled" to an answer. I merely asked what you'd do differently if you were to design a school system from the ground up and hoped for something more than a refusal to answer followed by your belittling someone for their response.
Only an ignorant fool would say that it needs to be totally replaced.
Impressive indeed. That ChrisLA is brilliant. Simple answers ROCK. We need more republican deep thinkers like ChrisLA.
maybe just justified in bugging me for not answering what I consider a huge question). Can’t help you with that. From the style of how you asked ( “I’m still waitngâ€) it’s almost as if you forgot which hat you had on.
The reason that I said, "I'm still waiting..." is that, after four responses, you still didn't answer the question. I actually was still waiging for your answer, but I'm not any longer. I'm not sure what you meant by "which hat I had on," but I'm really not interested in your answer to that either.
Or I’m too biased toward my own self interest to have a meaningful opinion ?
No, because this is about money…mainly how you earn yours. People should know that, Mr. Lofty-Teacher-Pushing-A-More-Crass-Agenda.
That’s all.
Right now you sound like some whiney Wall Streeter objecting to disclosing his financial skin in the game with regards to the content of the articles he/she publishing. Such arrogance…
What shrekkie said. In spades.
marcus
2011 Apr 6, 10:00pm
What shrekkie said. In spades.
Another one eats up the anti-teacher propaganda.
My avg class size are over forty now. There are more huge layoffs on the table. The corporatist are after us for multiple reasons, I guess yes (follow the money) because of the money in education. This country is fucked, considering how quickly people want to go after teachers. And I get on here, to whine ? More like, I come on here in the sad hope of informing some of the ignorant haters.
What Shirk and others don't understand, with comments like "hiding behind the children," or "Mr. Lofty-Teacher-Pushing-A-More-Crass-Agenda" when he projects that my agenda must be selfish is yes, I am a teacher for selfish reasons, and wanting to be compensated fairly for my efforts is only a part of those selfish reasons. All the other reasons are selfish too. But he wouldn't understand what I mean by that.
Merit pay will probably be good for me, or at least won't hurt me, because some of my classes are with the most advanced kids (eg Calculus). But it's a big mistake. Poverty is the problem.
In another thread, Shirk says, "then why do some public school teachers send their kids to private schools." The answer has to do with who the other students are at the private schools, which compared to some of the roughest public schools is going to be quite different. But all the public school teachers where I work that have kids, send them to public schools. Many get to have their kids in our school.
What Ray said in spades.
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My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.
"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said. "No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good, Average, Below average, and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better. Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice." "That's terrible," he said. "What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?" "Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry." "Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me." "Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children see me until there is some problem and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also," he said, "many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?" "It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. I couldn't believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job. "I am not!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most." "Don't get touchy," I said. "Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or worse. My more educated patients who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating actually is a measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?" "I think you are overreacting," I said. "Complaining, excuse making and stonewalling won't improve dental health... I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted. "What's the DOC?" he asked. "It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly laypersons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved." "Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?" "Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes." "That's too complicated and time consuming," I said. "Cavities are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure." "That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly. "Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some." "How?" he said. "If you're rated poorly, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly. "You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? Big help." "There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all." "You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score on a test of children's progress without regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools." I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to write my representatives and senator," he said. "I'll use the school analogy - surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.