patrick.net

terriDeaner says

I dunno, try walking from Union Square up Mason street to the Tonga Room sometime. And if walkability is your thing, try Manhattan - even smaller and flatter.

Well, I think stats around fitness show different standards for California too. ; ) There are some steep streets here. I live on Potrero Hill, so get to walk up steep ones regularly. I need the activity, though, as my exercising time seems to be shrinking to zero. Making your commute exercise is helpful living in a lot of ways.

I love Manhattan! Wouldn't want to walk much there in January or July or February or August or November or March or December though. I already take the car barely over a mile to work most days. I haven't shown myself to be organized by priorities in that regard. I probably walk to work a third of the year at most.

Ummm...uni6jon2...change your quote above - I didn't say that.

ch_tah says

Ummm…uni6jon2…change your quote above - I didn’t say that.

ch_tah is right... that quote was from me.

uni6jon2 says

I love Manhattan! Wouldn’t want to walk much there in January or July or February or August or November or March or December though.

Too bad... walking through the falling snow is one of my favorite winter activities. And summer nights are great for being outdoors. You just need to dress for the weather and know when to avoid the worst of it (see the bit on the 'coat' above).

ch_tah says

I’m not sure what’s most important. I would think they are all factors (price, walkability, jobs, weather, diversity, etc.) For now, it seems like people are willing to pay a bit more for those other factors for places in NYC and parts of CA.

If home prices hadn't been gamed by selling mortage bundles as investments, I might think differently. I've just found that buying a house seems to compromise nearly every other aspect of life.

There are two aspects of life buying a house still satisfies. Social conformity and saving money for those who find it difficult. These seem like very sound reasons for buying a house. Nonconformity in society is very, very difficult and stressful for most people. Just look at men's haircuts! Clearly, contemporary humans are more calm and comfortable conforming. When I realized American home ownership was well above fifty percent, I gained a much greater understanding of the dynamics around home ownership. I grew up poor and have still never lived in an owned home, so I had thought for years that home ownership was very difficult to achieve. I've sinced realized how easy it can be, with recent years showing the EXTREME ease.

Many people find it very difficult to save money or be comfortable only spending money they've made or saved themselves. Building some savings into your monthly shelter payment, which you've probably regularly practiced throughout life paying rent at first, seems reasonable to me. I have many friends who would probably not save otherwise and I support their home ownership for that reason.

I don't know...

I live within 15 miles of 4 amazing beaches, I have hiking and mountain bike trails right outside my door, I do have 4 seasons, winter gets cold but we consider 60 degrees very cold and 40 freezing (disaster). From April - End of November I am in the pool when I come home from the beach. The sky is blue 280 days a year. Within a car ride of 10min. I have literally every store from Best Buy to 100's of Mom and Pop Stores. Restaurants in every style you can imagine of. And did I mention the weather? :)

I plan BBQ's all year long. They never get canceled due to shitty weather.

Then there are all the millions of things you can do in CA when you don't want to stay home. Palm Springs, Vegas (4hr car ride from LA), Take a ride up the coast, San Diego, the entire Huntington Beach Area is fun to hang out. National Parks, Fishing, Magic Mountain...the list is too long.

CA is not really overrated. It is fantastic!

SubOink says

I live within 15 miles of 4 amazing beaches, I have hiking and mountain bike trails right outside my door, [...] Then there are all the millions of things you can do in CA when you don’t want to stay home.

Don't get me wrong - the natural beauty here is fantastic. And there is lots to do. It's just that California is not the only place in this country (or elsewhere on earth) that has lots going for it. You just have to be willing to look for it, and willing to consider that climate-controlled, boring-ass, blue sky days are not the be-all, end-all in this life.

SubOink says

And did I mention the weather? :)

Did you? I'm not sure. I've never before heard that California has nice weather... Tell me more.

terriDeaner says

SubOink says

I live within 15 miles of 4 amazing beaches, I have hiking and mountain bike trails right outside my door, […] Then there are all the millions of things you can do in CA when you don’t want to stay home.

Don’t get me wrong - the natural beauty here is fantastic. And there is lots to do. It’s just that California is not the only place in this country (or elsewhere on earth) that has lots going for it. You just have to be willing to look for it, and willing to consider that climate-controlled, boring-ass, blue sky days are not the be-all, end-all in this life.

SubOink says

And did I mention the weather?

Did you? I’m not sure. I’ve never before heard that California has nice weather… Tell me more.

We're just talking about why prices are higher in CA than somewhere else. Can you live somewhere else too? Yes, you can. Nobody says that you cannot live somewhere else. I grew up with having months and months of rainy, shitty weather...but I survived just fine. Did I hate it? Yes.

But there are parts that are more desirable than others in this world = > they go for more money in rent, home prices etc...

The thing about the weather. If blue sky's are so boring then why is it that every vacation package you find out there has something to do with a beach, sunshine, warm weather? It's what people seek because sunshine makes you feel good. So the whole world that lives in rainy parts wants to be in nice weather on their vacation.

Well, we live in that weather year round and that's what makes it nicer than somewhere else and so we are willing to pay more for houses than in buttf$ck Ohio (for example).

But you are right. Whenever I want to tease my buddy's back east I write them (in November) "Ah, its so shitty today, got sunburned yesterday on the beach, A/C running all day, can't sleep because its sooo hot and no end of this boring blue sky, terrible...just terrible.." - and you know what they usually answer me back with ..."F U" :)

SubOink says

I grew up with having months and months of rainy, shitty weather…but I survived just fine. Did I hate it? Yes.

Aw C'mon suboink, are you made of sugar or something? Man up, it's only water!

SubOink says

The thing about the weather. If blue sky’s are so boring then why is it that every vacation package you find out there has something to do with a beach, sunshine, warm weather?

Because typically the people who purchase such vacation packages have souls as empty and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of a cloudless blue sky. Duh! Seriously though, if I wanted the same, tedious, climate-controlled weather every day I'd just drive myself to the mall and hang out at the food court.

SubOink says

Well, we live in that weather year round and that’s what makes it nicer than somewhere else and so we are willing to pay more for houses than in buttf$ck Ohio (for example).

Well that's just it, right? For many people, here and out-of-state, the weather is not worth the over-leveraging lots of folks here have undertaken to buy a house in California.

And although I've never been to buttf$ck Ohio, I have been to buttsf$ck... and the weather was DELIGHTFUL!

terriDeaner says

Because typically the people who purchase such vacation packages have souls as empty and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of a cloudless blue sky. Duh! Seriously though, if I wanted the same, tedious, climate-controlled weather every day I’d just drive myself to the mall and hang out at the food court.

So if you crave warm weather you are an empty soul? Wow!

While you're at the mall...I'd rather be outside hiking thru canyons...but I am probably just an empty soul and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of the cloudless sky.

Pretty interesting discussion.

SubOink says

Well, we live in that weather year round and that’s what makes it nicer than somewhere else and so we are willing to pay more for houses than in buttf$ck Ohio (for example).

I actually enjoy winter related activities 3 months out of the year, as well as different seasons. Oddly enough the weather is in the 60's-90's 6-8 months of the year! So I get plenty of hiking in too(we have that here in buttf$ck) and rock climbing (in Kentucky, but I own a car which takes me places). Then, when I get burnt out from all those things the seasons change and I do other things.

Anyways, I've never been arguing that buttf$ck, Ohio is better in California. I'm just saying it's much cheaper for very little sacrificed. I'd argue the same for any other cheaper state, which is almost all of them. But...to each his own. I'll stop debating the issue, it just baffles me is all.

StoutFiles says

I actually enjoy winter related activities 3 months out of the year, as well as different seasons. [...]Then, when I get burnt out from all those things the seasons change and I do other things.

Anyways, I’ve never been arguing that buttf$ck, Ohio is better in California. I’m just saying it’s much cheaper for very little sacrificed. I’d argue the same for any other cheaper state, which is almost all of them. But…to each his own. I’ll stop debating the issue, it just baffles me is all.

Agreed.

SubOink says

terriDeaner says

Because typically the people who purchase such vacation packages have souls as empty and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of a cloudless blue sky. Duh! Seriously though, if I wanted the same, tedious, climate-controlled weather every day I’d just drive myself to the mall and hang out at the food court.

So if you crave warm weather you are an empty soul? Wow!

While you’re at the mall…I’d rather be outside hiking thru canyons…but I am probably just an empty soul and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of the cloudless sky.

I'm just foolin' around, trying to illustrate my point above. Don't take this stuff too seriously suboink.

terriDeaner says

Too bad… walking through the falling snow is one of my favorite winter activities. And summer nights are great for being outdoors. You just need to dress for the weather and know when to avoid the worst of it (see the bit on the ‘coat’ above).

I definitely agree. The point I've not made is that warmer weather allows more activity outside. Individual reception may vary and on any given day a person might walk in the snow. I think people are more likely to be outside when the weather permits their survival without a coat.

terriDeaner says

ch_tah says
Ummm…uni6jon2…change your quote above - I didn’t say that.
ch_tah is right… that quote was from me.

My highlighting skills need help maybe. I don't know how this happened, but have had some problems when trying to highlight the first text in an entry for quoting. I'm new here, so just not familiar with the system.

If you're suggesting I did something intentionally, I can only write that I didn't. Didn't meant to attribute you mistakenly ch_tah. I feel embarrassed doing that.

StoutFiles says

I actually enjoy winter related activities 3 months out of the year, as well as different seasons.

I think you'll find people in Northern California saying the same. The point is that we don't spend all of our time hiking etc. Most of the time we spend just being at home, eating, and going to work. So when the weather impairs those things, there is a change in quality of life. It can certainly be overcome. Our species has survived worst. The point is what can life be without those obstacles?

I think I'm attributing quotes to the contributors who didn't type them by quoting one contributor from another contributor's entry. Now I understand and will go to source entries for quotes. I hope that didn't confuse anyone in a way that was frustrating.

uni6jon2 says

I think I’m attributing quotes to the contributors who didn’t type them by quoting one contributor from another contributor’s entry. Now I understand and will go to source entries for quotes. I hope that didn’t confuse anyone in a way that was frustrating.

No problem. Easy mistake to make.

uni6jon2 says

I think I’m attributing quotes to the contributors who didn’t type them by quoting one contributor from another contributor’s entry. Now I understand and will go to source entries for quotes. I hope that didn’t confuse anyone in a way that was frustrating.

You need some sun, Boa!

:)

SubOink says

You need some sun, Boa!

HAHA! Do you know it's rained off and on the last two days in San Francisco, or just playing the odds? Damn Southern California weather. So sunny and warm!

uni6jon2 says

Admittedly, some of these things just have inexplainable connections for me and cause me to smile deeply, but there are also some very basic reaons why California living is highly valued.

Delusion and imagination, anything else?

uni6jon2 says

Isn’t it strange to others that we are so willing to spend so much borrowed money on houses?

Add to that their need to maximize their salary for the loan by using two incomes and then stretch the loan for their purchase. It's an American sickness.

klarek says

Delusion and imagination, anything else?

Productivity. See thread with Terr D above.

klarek says

uni6jon2 says

Admittedly, some of these things just have inexplainable connections for me and cause me to smile deeply, but there are also some very basic reaons why California living is highly valued.

Delusion and imagination, anything else?

Imagination? Delusion? I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas...and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is...who is delusional?

SubOink says

I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas…and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is…who is delusional?

Well, I for one have lived in CA and was not impressed. Call me delusional if you must, but sitting in LA traffic for 3 hours per day is not my idea of heaven.

And summer highs of 65 F with a cold wind in SF might help with the AC bills, but it's not exactly my idea of paradise.

The difference is that I don't think my hometown is superior to the rest of the country. I like where I live and I'm sure you guys do too.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas…and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is…who is delusional?

Well, I for one have lived in CA and was not impressed. Call me delusional if you must, but sitting in LA traffic for 3 hours per day is not my idea of heaven.
And summer highs of 65 F with a cold wind in SF might help with the AC bills, but it’s not exactly my idea of paradise.
The difference is that I don’t think my hometown is superior to the rest of the country. I like where I live and I’m sure you guys do too.

...traffic for 3 hours a day? In 3 hours I can drive from LA to Las Vegas (and done many times), in 1.5 hours from LA to Palm Springs...hm...

SubOink says

traffic for 3 hours a day? In 3 hours I can drive from LA to Las Vegas (and done many times), in 1.5 hours from LA to Palm Springs…hm…

hm is right. I'm not going get into an argument about whether traffic is bad in LA or not. If you are happy there, then that's all that matters.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

traffic for 3 hours a day? In 3 hours I can drive from LA to Las Vegas (and done many times), in 1.5 hours from LA to Palm Springs…hm…

hm is right. I’m not going get into an argument about whether traffic is bad in LA or not. If you are happy there, then that’s all that matters.

Yep, being happy is really all that matters. And in general its very hard to argue about "life is good in XYZ" - because in the end, if you are doing well and have money and a family/job you love, its nice anywhere. In other words, I'd rather be rich in Kentucky than poor in California...

Also, every city has bad neighborhoods. So when two people compare a life in XYZ, one says its great and the other says it sucked. It all depends on where you live in XYZ. Everyone's situation is different.

Why were we talking about this again? :)

tatupu70 says

And summer highs of 65 F with a cold wind in SF might help with the AC bills, but it’s not exactly my idea of paradise.

That number is actually the average high for the entire year. "Endless Summer" indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Climate

Still, I can understand missing 90 degree temps in summer, if that's what you have in your mind as summer. San Francisco gets maybe a week of those temps a year. Jeans and a shirt year round is pretty fun, though. I'm also on the Bay side, so get maximum sun for the city.

SF ace says

If you want to go to Maui, do you want settle for Mexico because it’s cheaper, or do you want to make more money so you target Hawaii and not settle for anything less?

I guess my point is SF isn't Maui...

uni6jon2 says

That number is actually the average high for the entire year. “Endless Summer” indeed.

More like endless fall. Which is OK if you don't like having seasons...

SubOink says

Imagination? Delusion? I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas…

Reality begs to differ, but you're entitled to your silly opinions.

and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is…who is delusional?

In general, they are. They think there's something special about their plot of land with indefensibly expensive real estate on top of fault lines while voting for state legislators who issue IOU's because after a decade of good and bad economic times they're too stupid to service the assload of debt that they create and unfunded pension liabilities they promise.

Coastal states and sunshine are "nice" if you think life is a postcard. In reality, you could live in most of the states in this country and experience exceptional scenery and weather. There's nothing special about CA.

But population-wise the equivalent states on the east coast are more populous, have lower unemployment, and don't have a decade-long pattern of electing embarrassing jackasses who financially ruin their respective states.

I'm not saying the east coast is better, frankly I don't much care. But the stereotypical CA mindset which we're talking about is most certainly delusional and a product of imagination.

klarek says

There’s nothing special about CA

Obviously, there is. :) Almost everybody I know here is not from CA originally. If there is nothing special, then why does everybody want to come here?

Oh wait, I forgot...mass delusion, right?

SubOink says

If there is nothing special, then why does everybody want to come here?

This is what I'm talking about. Do you really believe that statement?

Ask any recruiter how easy it is to get people for jobs in CA. I've talked to several that don't even try to recruit out of state for CA. jobs. Because the candidates never accept the offer.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

If there is nothing special, then why does everybody want to come here?

This is what I’m talking about. Do you really believe that statement?
Ask any recruiter how easy it is to get people for jobs in CA. I’ve talked to several that don’t even try to recruit out of state for CA. jobs. Because the candidates never accept the offer.

No jobs in CA and really no jobs anywhere else. I know of workers that get on the plane to do a job in CA, then fly back to Oregon or wherever.

Also, I wasn't even talking about recruiting etc...I am talking about the potential demand to live in CA. If you can actually survive and find a job is something else. I would love to live in Hawaii...but I cannot work there. But Hawaii would still be desirable for me to live. So I would say, everybody would love to live in Maui...but they can't. Same in CA and other sunshine places.

klarek says

Coastal states and sunshine are “nice” if you think life is a postcard. In reality, you could live in most of the states in this country and experience exceptional scenery and weather. There’s nothing special about CA.

I'm confused after reading what you wrote. Are you saying life can't be a postcard? I'm not reading your second sentence as support for your first.

I agree that everyplace is exceptional. There is beauty and wonder to be found in every place. However, there is a difference in taking one look from the San Francisco Bay across the city skyline toward the Golden Gate Bridge and seeing an orchard of peach trees, like where I grew up in Colorado. If you connect with that difference, then maybe you've found home. If not, keep looking.

SubOink says

I would love to live in Hawaii…but I cannot work there.

I think I get what you're saying, but would change "can not" to "will not." If you're profession was surfboard shaping, you'd probably work there.

I loved my one trip to Maui, but there's a long list of reasons not to move there including the difficulty of replacing the work I enjoy here in San Francisco in high tech. Also proximity to family, distance to rest of U.S., and a terrible golf game that definitely needs work before moving to Hawaii.

SubOink says

Also, I wasn’t even talking about recruiting etc…I am talking about the potential demand to live in CA

I think you misunderstood what I said. I mean that recruiters hired by companies in CA. that have current openings and are actively looking for people to fill them don't bother to look outside CA. because they say nobody from other parts of the country ever accept the offers. If there was so much demand and so many people looking to move to CA., I wouldn't expect that to be the case....

tatupu70 says

I mean that recruiters hired by companies in CA. that have current openings and are actively looking for people to fill them don’t bother to look outside CA.

Yeah, i don't think the economics of that situation work out for people who don't really want to live in California. If the standard of living fits, then great, but if you value a gigantic house you own and other such nonsense, then it probably won't work to sell your place in most other states and move to California.

There are, of course, many who dream of living here because life here is incomparable.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

Also, I wasn’t even talking about recruiting etc…I am talking about the potential demand to live in CA

I think you misunderstood what I said. I mean that recruiters hired by companies in CA. that have current openings and are actively looking for people to fill them don’t bother to look outside CA. because they say nobody from other parts of the country ever accept the offers. If there was so much demand and so many people looking to move to CA., I wouldn’t expect that to be the case….

Yeah, not sure. I haven't heard about what you said. Would need to verify that because all I know are the many people that show up here and are looking for work. The fact that house prices and standard of living expenses are where they are in CA, show you how many people desire to be here, otherwise everybody would just pack their bags and move to Oregon and prices would crash in the ground. A house in Beverly Hills should be $100k by now...with all that nasty traffic and sunshine.

Let's see how many people in their 20's - 40's would want to leave CA and move somewhere else?