patrick.net

klarek says

Delusion and imagination, anything else?

Productivity. See thread with Terr D above.

klarek says

uni6jon2 says

Admittedly, some of these things just have inexplainable connections for me and cause me to smile deeply, but there are also some very basic reaons why California living is highly valued.

Delusion and imagination, anything else?

Imagination? Delusion? I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas...and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is...who is delusional?

SubOink says

I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas…and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is…who is delusional?

Well, I for one have lived in CA and was not impressed. Call me delusional if you must, but sitting in LA traffic for 3 hours per day is not my idea of heaven.

And summer highs of 65 F with a cold wind in SF might help with the AC bills, but it's not exactly my idea of paradise.

The difference is that I don't think my hometown is superior to the rest of the country. I like where I live and I'm sure you guys do too.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas…and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is…who is delusional?

Well, I for one have lived in CA and was not impressed. Call me delusional if you must, but sitting in LA traffic for 3 hours per day is not my idea of heaven.
And summer highs of 65 F with a cold wind in SF might help with the AC bills, but it’s not exactly my idea of paradise.
The difference is that I don’t think my hometown is superior to the rest of the country. I like where I live and I’m sure you guys do too.

...traffic for 3 hours a day? In 3 hours I can drive from LA to Las Vegas (and done many times), in 1.5 hours from LA to Palm Springs...hm...

SubOink says

traffic for 3 hours a day? In 3 hours I can drive from LA to Las Vegas (and done many times), in 1.5 hours from LA to Palm Springs…hm…

hm is right. I'm not going get into an argument about whether traffic is bad in LA or not. If you are happy there, then that's all that matters.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

traffic for 3 hours a day? In 3 hours I can drive from LA to Las Vegas (and done many times), in 1.5 hours from LA to Palm Springs…hm…

hm is right. I’m not going get into an argument about whether traffic is bad in LA or not. If you are happy there, then that’s all that matters.

Yep, being happy is really all that matters. And in general its very hard to argue about "life is good in XYZ" - because in the end, if you are doing well and have money and a family/job you love, its nice anywhere. In other words, I'd rather be rich in Kentucky than poor in California...

Also, every city has bad neighborhoods. So when two people compare a life in XYZ, one says its great and the other says it sucked. It all depends on where you live in XYZ. Everyone's situation is different.

Why were we talking about this again? :)

tatupu70 says

And summer highs of 65 F with a cold wind in SF might help with the AC bills, but it’s not exactly my idea of paradise.

That number is actually the average high for the entire year. "Endless Summer" indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Climate

Still, I can understand missing 90 degree temps in summer, if that's what you have in your mind as summer. San Francisco gets maybe a week of those temps a year. Jeans and a shirt year round is pretty fun, though. I'm also on the Bay side, so get maximum sun for the city.

SF ace says

If you want to go to Maui, do you want settle for Mexico because it’s cheaper, or do you want to make more money so you target Hawaii and not settle for anything less?

I guess my point is SF isn't Maui...

uni6jon2 says

That number is actually the average high for the entire year. “Endless Summer” indeed.

More like endless fall. Which is OK if you don't like having seasons...

SubOink says

Imagination? Delusion? I think those two words fit more when you live in Kansas…

Reality begs to differ, but you're entitled to your silly opinions.

and tell yourself that its just as nice as living in CA and that Californians are just a crazy bunch. The question is…who is delusional?

In general, they are. They think there's something special about their plot of land with indefensibly expensive real estate on top of fault lines while voting for state legislators who issue IOU's because after a decade of good and bad economic times they're too stupid to service the assload of debt that they create and unfunded pension liabilities they promise.

Coastal states and sunshine are "nice" if you think life is a postcard. In reality, you could live in most of the states in this country and experience exceptional scenery and weather. There's nothing special about CA.

But population-wise the equivalent states on the east coast are more populous, have lower unemployment, and don't have a decade-long pattern of electing embarrassing jackasses who financially ruin their respective states.

I'm not saying the east coast is better, frankly I don't much care. But the stereotypical CA mindset which we're talking about is most certainly delusional and a product of imagination.

klarek says

There’s nothing special about CA

Obviously, there is. :) Almost everybody I know here is not from CA originally. If there is nothing special, then why does everybody want to come here?

Oh wait, I forgot...mass delusion, right?

SubOink says

If there is nothing special, then why does everybody want to come here?

This is what I'm talking about. Do you really believe that statement?

Ask any recruiter how easy it is to get people for jobs in CA. I've talked to several that don't even try to recruit out of state for CA. jobs. Because the candidates never accept the offer.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

If there is nothing special, then why does everybody want to come here?

This is what I’m talking about. Do you really believe that statement?
Ask any recruiter how easy it is to get people for jobs in CA. I’ve talked to several that don’t even try to recruit out of state for CA. jobs. Because the candidates never accept the offer.

No jobs in CA and really no jobs anywhere else. I know of workers that get on the plane to do a job in CA, then fly back to Oregon or wherever.

Also, I wasn't even talking about recruiting etc...I am talking about the potential demand to live in CA. If you can actually survive and find a job is something else. I would love to live in Hawaii...but I cannot work there. But Hawaii would still be desirable for me to live. So I would say, everybody would love to live in Maui...but they can't. Same in CA and other sunshine places.

klarek says

Coastal states and sunshine are “nice” if you think life is a postcard. In reality, you could live in most of the states in this country and experience exceptional scenery and weather. There’s nothing special about CA.

I'm confused after reading what you wrote. Are you saying life can't be a postcard? I'm not reading your second sentence as support for your first.

I agree that everyplace is exceptional. There is beauty and wonder to be found in every place. However, there is a difference in taking one look from the San Francisco Bay across the city skyline toward the Golden Gate Bridge and seeing an orchard of peach trees, like where I grew up in Colorado. If you connect with that difference, then maybe you've found home. If not, keep looking.

SubOink says

I would love to live in Hawaii…but I cannot work there.

I think I get what you're saying, but would change "can not" to "will not." If you're profession was surfboard shaping, you'd probably work there.

I loved my one trip to Maui, but there's a long list of reasons not to move there including the difficulty of replacing the work I enjoy here in San Francisco in high tech. Also proximity to family, distance to rest of U.S., and a terrible golf game that definitely needs work before moving to Hawaii.

SubOink says

Also, I wasn’t even talking about recruiting etc…I am talking about the potential demand to live in CA

I think you misunderstood what I said. I mean that recruiters hired by companies in CA. that have current openings and are actively looking for people to fill them don't bother to look outside CA. because they say nobody from other parts of the country ever accept the offers. If there was so much demand and so many people looking to move to CA., I wouldn't expect that to be the case....

tatupu70 says

I mean that recruiters hired by companies in CA. that have current openings and are actively looking for people to fill them don’t bother to look outside CA.

Yeah, i don't think the economics of that situation work out for people who don't really want to live in California. If the standard of living fits, then great, but if you value a gigantic house you own and other such nonsense, then it probably won't work to sell your place in most other states and move to California.

There are, of course, many who dream of living here because life here is incomparable.

tatupu70 says

SubOink says

Also, I wasn’t even talking about recruiting etc…I am talking about the potential demand to live in CA

I think you misunderstood what I said. I mean that recruiters hired by companies in CA. that have current openings and are actively looking for people to fill them don’t bother to look outside CA. because they say nobody from other parts of the country ever accept the offers. If there was so much demand and so many people looking to move to CA., I wouldn’t expect that to be the case….

Yeah, not sure. I haven't heard about what you said. Would need to verify that because all I know are the many people that show up here and are looking for work. The fact that house prices and standard of living expenses are where they are in CA, show you how many people desire to be here, otherwise everybody would just pack their bags and move to Oregon and prices would crash in the ground. A house in Beverly Hills should be $100k by now...with all that nasty traffic and sunshine.

Let's see how many people in their 20's - 40's would want to leave CA and move somewhere else?

uni6jon2 says

There are, of course, many who dream of living here because life here is incomparable.

SubOink says

Let’s see how many people in their 20’s - 40’s would want to leave CA and move somewhere else?

OK--I give up. You guys win. CA is utopia. Everyone would live there if only they could. If someone lives in OH, it's only because they can't afford to live in CA.

tatupu70 says

If someone lives in OH, it’s only because they can’t afford to live in CA.

No, I think some of them love OH! Some people living in CA hate it here! We're humans! Happiness is momentary, so enjoy the moments wherever you get them.

Man, this CA living is really making me a hippy...

tatupu70 says

If someone lives in OH, it’s only because they can’t afford to live in CA.

Just like the Kate Perry Song "O-Hi-o Gurls, we're unforgettable..."

:)

I feel for you tatupu, its hard to argue with paradise...

uni6jon2 says

I’m confused after reading what you wrote. Are you saying life can’t be a postcard? I’m not reading your second sentence as support for your first.

I'm saying that it's superficial. Whatever CA-lovers think is unique or wonderful about their state, they can find it elsewhere throughout the country. There's nothing terribly special about CA. A lot of people themselves that there is though, probably so they can justify paying a ridiculous amount of money to live there.

SubOink says

tatupu70 says

If someone lives in OH, it’s only because they can’t afford to live in CA.

Just like the Kate Perry Song “O-Hi-o Gurls, we’re unforgettable…”

I feel for you tatupu, its hard to argue with paradise…

lol--when you have to quote Katy Perry to make your argument, I think I've won...

klarek says

I’m saying that it’s superficial. Whatever CA-lovers think is unique or wonderful about their state, they can find it elsewhere throughout the country. There’s nothing terribly special about CA. A lot of people themselves that there is though, probably so they can justify paying a ridiculous amount of money to live there.

Your own argument proves the point about CA. If you need to take the other 49 states together to find what you can find it 1 state, I'd say that 1 state is special. Yes, CO has great mountains but no coast. Sure, FL has nice beaches but not much in terms of mountains. There's lots of corn in IL, but mountains are non-existent and Lake Michigan doesn't really count as an ocean/beach. NY is quite diverse with a big city, jobs, mountains, beaches close by, but the weather is pretty crappy, and if you factor in cost of living, it's just as high if not higher than most of CA. You have one state that has just about everything for everyone.

Having said that, to each his own, just be happy where you are.

ch_tah says

Your own argument proves the point about CA. If you need to take the other 49 states together to find what you can find it 1 state, I’d say that 1 state is special.

I didn't say you'd need all 49 to find what's in CA. It's so large that it's hard to believe the people living there think there's any connection between the Redwood Forest, Long Beach, and the Palm Desert other than the imaginary line drawn around them and being under the jurisdiction of incompetent legislators.

Having said that, to each his own, just be happy where you are.

I am. I could go on about how Virginia is the nicest state with mountains, beaches, foliage, etc., but those are postcard sentiments and there isn't anything terribly unique about them. That was my point about California.

It's a sign of territorial insecurity for people to puff up their own spot of land. It's most prominent in real estate. The most common answers I hear from people complaining about not being able to sell their house, then trying to justify their asking price (defend their imagined value) is: "My lot/view/street/neighborhood/town/zip/county/state/country is special". Sometimes it's based on their justification for choosing that spot, more often I believe it's nothing more than post purchase dissonance, something they've conned themselves into believing after the purchase to justify non-existing judgments made before the purchase (and by purchase I mean any sort of territorial claim).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization

I guess with your pessimistic view of everything, nothing is special, and the only reason why people are proud of their territory is insecurity. On the other hand, for those of us with a cheerier view of life, many people are proud because they enjoy where they are.

ch_tah says

I guess with your pessimistic view of everything

Suggest you do a road trip and drive outside the state. You will find great places and people who very happy where there at with no motivation, need or desire to move to California.

thomas.wong1986 says

Suggest you do a road trip and drive outside the state. You will find great places and people who very happy where there at with no motivation, need or desire to move to California.

Considering I'm not from CA originally and have lived in several states besides CA, do I really need to do a road trip? I never said everyone needs to live in CA. I would imagine most people are happy where they live. As usual, I'm not sure what your point is.

ch_tah says

You have one state that has just about everything for everyone.

Welcome to the jungle
We got fun 'n' games
We got everything you want
Honey we know the names
We are the people that can find
Whatever you may need
If you got the money honey
We got your disease

thomas.wong1986 says

Welcome to the jungle
We got fun ‘n’ games
We got everything you want
Honey we know the names
We are the people that can find
Whatever you may need
If you got the money honey
We got your disease

That's so beautiful... is it Emily Dickinson?

ch_tah says

thomas.wong1986 says

Suggest you do a road trip and drive outside the state. You will find great places and people who very happy where there at with no motivation, need or desire to move to California.

Considering I’m not from CA originally and have lived in several states besides CA, do I really need to do a road trip? I never said everyone needs to live in CA. I would imagine most people are happy where they live. As usual, I’m not sure what your point is.

Same here. And most road trips I do now are within CA. No reason to go anywhere else. Ok, an occasional Sedona, Grand Canyon Camping trip is a must and some boating on lake Havesu + Vegas is a fun weekend. Little Napa Valley Wine Country and Yosemite are within our borders, Lake Tahoe...San Diego...

Gotta go...have to plan another trip now...

Klarek, you are too negative. You gotta let something positive come into your life. It works. Try it. Negativity only attracts more negativity. It's a downward spiral. Try the "glas is half full" approach.

tatupu70 says

Just like the Kate Perry Song “O-Hi-o Gurls, we’re unforgettable…”

I feel for you tatupu, its hard to argue with paradise…
lol–when you have to quote Katy Perry to make your argument, I think I’ve won…

would the beach boys be a better suit for you?

SubOink says

Klarek, you are too negative.

I am just realistic. I don't find blissful ignorance as a substitution for happiness. Works for some people, not for me.

terriDeaner says

That’s so beautiful… is it Emily Dickinson?

Nope! Guns and F*****G Roses, Baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fumj2SVsKbE

thomas.wong1986 says

terriDeaner says

That’s so beautiful… is it Emily Dickinson?

Nope! Guns and F*****G Roses, Baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fumj2SVsKbE

That's why it sounded so familiar! I should have known... after all Emily Dickinson uses 'fuck' or 'fucking' or 'dogshit' in every other line of her poetry, anyhow.

Lived in Sf for 7 years, hated it for the most part.

The Michelin star raters couldn't find anything to like about the silly pretentious town. They think they have good food but it's nonsense.

The weather is practically identical to Seattle, but no one living there will admit it.
And I definitely don't miss the wafting of wildfire smoke.

The locals are frequently grumpy, probably due to indebtedness.

Good produce though.

uffthefluff says

The weather is practically identical to Seattle, but no one living there will admit it.

there's no comparison.

san francisco has much better weather - unless you prefer less sunshine, colder temperatures, more rain and more snow.

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/westcomp.ovc.html
seattle 226 cloudy days
san francisco 105 cloudy days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco#Climate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle#Climate
seattle rain 967 mm
san francisco rain 565 mm

seattle snow 30cm
san francisco snow none

sf temperature is also about 6-7 degrees higher than seattle for the average high and the average low.

uffthefluff says

Lived in Sf for 7 years, hated it for the most part.
The Michelin star raters couldn’t find anything to like about the silly pretentious town. They think they have good food but it’s nonsense.
The weather is practically identical to Seattle, but no one living there will admit it.

And I definitely don’t miss the wafting of wildfire smoke.
The locals are frequently grumpy, probably due to indebtedness.
Good produce though.

So basically, the girl you met in SF dumped you and you were mad and went back to Seattle...sorry to hear that!

...just kidding...

klarek says

SubOink says

Klarek, you are too negative.

I am just realistic. I don’t find blissful ignorance as a substitution for happiness. Works for some people, not for me.

No, you are negative. There is blissful ignorance and being euphoric - there is the middle of being somewhat in the middle (realistic) - and then there is negative. You know which one you are. It's not the middle, you are on the opposite side of euphoria. Just as bad, just as wrong. Being negative or positive is a mindset.
Some people are always downers and the funny part is, they always claim that they are just realistic. The weather is too hot, or too humid, or too dry or too cold. Food is too spicey and too hot, or too cold or too lame. Always negative. It's the best way to get very sick. Try being positive. The world is really not that shabby of a place. You have between 60-100 years in your lifetime to enjoy this life - enjoy it. It's hard, I struggle with it too many times but you gotta be positive.

Shit, I sound like the love guru now...never mind. It all sucks!
:)

SubOink says

Shit, I sound like the love guru now…never mind. It all sucks!

I didn't say anything sucks. Post-purchase rationalization is a psychological phenomenon. I make mention of this, that housing prices are unsustainably high, or that renting is a valid alternative to owning.... and you assume that there is something wrong with me. That is funny. Don't assume somebody is unhappy just because you're living in a fantasy world and they refuse to validate it for you.