patrick.net

bob2356 says

You said “Because having a spot of ground to call your own on this planet is a basic human right” in reference to SFH, yet you say being forced into MFH does not give up any human rights. If only owners can occupy SFH then renters aren’t choosing, they are being forced. Which is it?

I suspect we are talking past each other here.

In an LVT regime owners of SFH would be perfectly free to rent out their units to LH tenants. They just wouldn't be tapped into their tenants' monthly paychecks so deeply, as their yield would be relative to the actual capital cost of the improvements the tenant is enjoying (their rightful property) and not the site value of the lot the improvements sit on (said site value the LL has done absolutely nothing to create).

So if all the ll’s were impoverished then now one would have the option to rent.

Right, SFH renters would become buyers. I really fail to see the bleeping problem here.

If the problem is that buying is too onerous for people, there are ways to streamline things. For one, the LVT eliminates the site value and future rental value of the land from the equation, this will cut the acquisition cost of SFHs by half or more.

If sell-side liquidity is desired, the community authority that is largely receiving the inflows of the LVT can easily establish some sort of land bank facility.

It would also behoove us to eliminate all the paper-pushing bullshit associated with land sales.

In your world there is no one who is just living someplace for 6 months or a year and doesn’t want to tie all their capital (if they have any) up in real estate?

One of the purposes of this LVT idea is to eliminate the boom-bust nature of real estate, said nature driven by its substantial appeal as an investment and not a consumer good. By restoring long-term stability, and also by increasing the supply of housing alternatives to SFH, the cost of living in a community should fall tremendously, enriching everyone, except the leeching LLs of course.

you are an nutjob

This ad-hom normally gets broken out in discussions with people defending our current system, yes.

NYC used rent control to impoverish all the ll’s in the 60’s and 70’s and tens of thousands of really nice buildings were burned to the ground.

LVT is the opposite of rent-control. It removes ALL taxes from actual capital formation and the LL's improvements to the community.

Unlike Prop 13, which actually penalizes LLs when they redevelop.

These were vibrant working class neighborhoods less than 20 years earlier.

yeah, well, this disaster-stuff didn't happen when and where LVT was implemented. Quite the opposite in fact.

burritos says

Everything is limited and of a fixed supply. What do you think we’ll run out of first, oil or land?

Oil is land in its natural state, once severed from the land it becomes a commodity product in competition with other forms of energy.

Running out of oil is not necessarily a tragedy, we will find other forms of energy to create and trade, hopefully superior forms if the history of science & technology is any guide.

China, India, and Bangladesh are in fact "running out of land".

So have Singapore and Hong Kong, but they were quite wise in cutting their parasite landlord class off at the knees via LVT, rent taxes, and social policy like subsidized MFH.

You just want to live near the ocean. Fine that’s your choice but it’s not an entitlement to you and everyone who wants to live near the coast.

LVT does not propose that all rents be reduced to equality, that one acre in Selma be the same rent as one acre in Pismo.

Quite the opposite. The LVT captures the scarcity rent of the most desirable places to live quite amazingly.

There's, what, 500 miles of inhabitable coast in California? Going with $10M per acre of site value for this coastal zone (call it 5 acres in) and a 2.5% LVT rate, that would be 65,000 acres x $10M x 2.5% = $16.5B in annual LVT from coastal site value of this narrow ~1000' strip alone.

Do you really want me to continue exposing how much site value this state has that is untaxed? I'd be happy to do so!

I you’re entitled to tenancy, someone who dreams of the uptopia you describe can certainly can build affordable housing middle of the desert.

The desert lacks government infrastructure investment, community development, and of course any existing productive resource base. That's why its still a desert.

LA was a desert 150 years ago, but it had great natural advantages. Once the city fathers stole the water rights from the Sierras, they were good to go.

Well how about this scenario. My uncle lived in his 1st home for 20 years. He saved and upgraded to a larger home. Instead of selling his primary home, he rented it out. In your utopia, you think he should be mandated to sell it before purchasing the next home correct?

Troy says

Oil is land in its natural state, once severed from the land it becomes a commodity product in competition with other forms of energy.

What doesn't come from the land that we use? Everyone who works, breathes and earns a living, is somehow leeching off the natural land in one shape or form, not just the landlords.

burritos says

In your utopia, you think he should be mandated to sell it before purchasing the next home correct?

Mandated, no. Encouraged by increasing land value taxes, yes.

We should, as much as practicable, be a nation of owners not renters.

California's supply of SFHs are undoubtedly being locked up by Prop 13 protections of long-term holders of tax-protected houses.

Then we throw tens of billions of dollars of Section 8 vouches at the market. This is completely assinine.

Here's a well-known nutjob from the 18th century on this question:

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."

burritos says

What doesn’t come from the land that we use? Everyone who works, breathes and earns a living, is somehow leeching off the natural land in one shape or form, not just the landlords.

but only landlords by definition charge others for these very basics of human existence.

Georgists believe that all takings from the commons generally requires a severance tax.

Landlords also by definition do not leech off the land, they leech off others desiring to use the land.

Troy says

but only landlords by definition charge others for these very basics of human existence.

No, anyone who exploits the land to produce anything of value charges others for the use or consumption of that product. Agriculture, minerals, power, livestock, granite countertops, parking lots.

Troy says

Georgists believe that all takings from the commons generally requires a severance tax.

Georgists should be aware that the takings from the commons were granted in exchange for some value, equivalent to a severance tax. The fact that the "owners" have, individually and collectively, and in concert with public management, happenstance, and exogenous events, made those takings more valuable over time is irrelevant, but good.

Georgists should further be aware that land "owners" make recurring remittances into the public trust for continued use of those takings. If those remittances became overburdensome and the takings reverted to public management, do you suggest that they'd be managed more effectively or fairly, or somehow otherwise bring about a better world for someone?

You have the great benefit of zero real world empirical data to compare your system against the existing, so you can't be proven wrong, per se. Your expectation of improvement is entirely a matter of faith, however.

I don't know where your faith comes from. But for now at least, your election to supreme leader seems unlikely, so I guess it's harmless.

Troy says

it is impossible for the holder of a land title to individually improve the site value of that land, for the site value is dependent on everything OUTSIDE the lot lines.

That makes zero sense. Yes, the title holder cannot improve the "land value" as a line item on the tax assessment -- only to the improvements thereon. But the "value" of all the surrounding "land" comes in large part due to other title holders improvements. The intrinsic value of the land is interesting but inseparable from the aggregated improvements for any sort of "use".

Troy says

This is a continued perversion of the language by you.

Truly, my use of "rights" derives from the contract between title holder and sovereign administrator. You call it privilege, but the entire foundation of real property law disagrees with you. We can both be correct, but as semantic perversions go in this conversation, I contend that yours is the more aberrant.

We've had approximately the same discussion before, and I still respect the depth and nuance of the arguments you espouse, as well as the significance of the problems they hope to address.

I stated before that I disagree with the conclusions reached. I definitely do disagree, but only when burdened by the consideration of implementability. Ditching the existing social contract and ideological inertia, your logic is as rational as any other reconstruction -- though not, to me, evidently superior.

Troy says

I’d settle for elimination of Prop 13 for non-owner occupied in my lifetime, actually.

On this, we agree. I wouldn't stop there, but I'd welcome it as a first step.

quesera says

But the “value” of all the surrounding “land” comes in large part due to other title holders improvements.

Nope. Empty buildings are liabilities not boons unless one enjoys parkour.

It is the community of users -- the business operations themselves -- that create site value, LLs earn their way from the rent.

The intrinsic value of the land is interesting

It's more than merely "interesting". It is the unearned increment itself! Your attempts at being coy about this are amusing.

but inseparable from the aggregated improvements for any sort of “use”.

Calculating the unimproved value of land is an elemental task for assessors. This valuation is generally continuous on maps, though of course million-dollar views and such do provide some variation, as do zoning limits of course.

So this is just arguing for the sake of arguing, for this is just quibbling about a minor detail of how much other improvements affect site value. To the extent that other forms of use add site value to neighbors -- eg. private train right of ways -- they can be incented with a lower LVT burden while that improvement is in operation.

my use of “rights” derives from the contract between title holder and sovereign administrator. You call it privilege,

Privilege itself is "a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions." Sure looks like a land title to me -- when the state grants exclusive rights to someone, these are clearly privileges, by the very root meanings of the word.

It's kinda important to get the basics correct. The perversion I reacted to was your development of this idea that the original grant of land use privilege gives one a inalienable right to retain all future rental income from the land -- or, with immunity hold the title without developing it while the community fills in around it.

That is an utter non-sequitur. For one, the grant of fee simple estate in land already includes the tax liability to the state. The question isn't whether the state can assess taxes on land, but what it should tax, for what duration it should tax it, and by how much.

Understanding that land titles are a collective loss of rights for a granting of privilege is a very important point.

but the entire foundation of real property law disagrees with you.

Lawyers, lawmakers, and judges own a lot of land, yes.