by RobSTL follow (0)
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I am not a realtor, just a patriotic American
as soon as i read these words i knew this was going to be more bull by a housing bull.
I agree with most of the points made by the OP. I do disagree partially, however, with the comment that houses are "absurdly cheap compared to every other country in the world." It depends what part of the coutnry you are talking about. Are you talking about Manhattan or Topeka, Kansas? US real estate is both super expensive and super cheap. But it depends where you are.
You're preaching to the Choir bub, now all you have to do is create an economy where 8 million Americans a year are credit worthy enough, and has adequate down payments. And it will be back to Stripper Poles, Granite Counter tops, Big Ass Titties and 40% YOY home appreciation.
Where's that little tid bit in your Myth Buster thread?
Yeah, I'm not even wasting time going point by point on this. It's just silly. Yes, high housing costs are awesome, so that people can't spend money on anything else. That would be great for our economy!
Another general fallacy in the account above is that buying and selling used houses is good for economy. It's not! Buying and selling used houses has extremely high transaction costs and is only good for rent-seekers, like realtors, mortgage brokers, banksters, etc.
Residential investment does lead economic recoveries, typically, but that is not the same thing as what's stated above.
"Buying and selling used houses has extremely high transaction costs and is only good for rent-seekers, like realtors, mortgage brokers, banksters, etc."
So then someone should develop a way to sell houses without a realtor. We need a Facebook, but one for selling houses.
I agree with most of the points made by the OP. I do disagree partially, however, with the comment that houses are “absurdly cheap compared to every other country in the world.†It depends what part of the coutnry you are talking about. Are you talking about Manhattan or Topeka, Kansas? US real estate is both super expensive and super cheap. But it depends where you are.
Thanks for the support, HousingWatcher. My comment "absurdly cheap compared" was prefixed by "when comparing size, quality, features, surrounding infrastructure etc". I was referring to comparing similar cities, say New York to Mumbai or Paris. Chicago to New Delhi or Paris etc, and then comparing using the factors that I stated.
Yeah, I’m not even wasting time going point by point on this. It’s just silly. Yes, high housing costs are awesome, so that people can’t spend money on anything else. That would be great for our economy!
You must have missed reading my first myth buster regarding falling housing prices leading to increasing unemployment and lower wages. Spending on other goods and services is falling and the economy is crashing BECAUSE of falling home prices. Rising home prices and inflation helps wipe out loans, so people can then begin to spend on other goods.
thunderlips,
Thanks for taking the time with your detailed comments, and keeping it civil.
On my myth buster #9, please see these links regarding buying cheaper than renting and rising rentals
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/24/new-generation-of-renters_n_866032.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/24/buying-cheaper-than-renting_n_813088.html
Regarding myth buster #8 : As home values rise, home owners feel wealthier, and spend on goods and services, leading to the retail sector creating jobs. As home values fall, the opposite happens as evident over the past 5 years in the USA. People spend less, and retailers cut jobs. Not sure why this is not obvious.
Your comments regarding developed vs developing countries has been made by others too, and I fail to understand why most of you seem to not care about the developing world or its bubbles and want to focus just on the developed world. In the globalized world that we now live in, the rising wealth of these so called developing countries is very relevant to the developed countries. Like I already stated, homeowners in these developing countries are far more wealthy than homeowners in developed countries, thanks to the real estate appreciation in these developing countries. It is only a matter of time before all homes in the developed world are bought by the wealthy from the developing world, and current citizens of the developed world become high rent paying tenants. Rising wealth in developing countries also means rising inflation in the USA, which outsources manufacturing and services increasingly. Without a corresponding rise in our own wealth, we are doomed.
Comments 1 - 9 of 189 Next » Last » Search these comments
I am not a realtor, just a patriotic American middle-class citizen with a wide international perspective, as I have lived in Asia and Europe for many years. I am one of the few people that believes that housing in the United States is ridiculously undervalued, and always has been, when considering size, quality, features, surrounding infrastructure, median income, etc. I believe that the collapse in housing prices over the past few years has been the most major factor in destroying the American economy, and fear that our great country is stuck in a death spiral. I honestly believe that the housing collapse has hurt the middle class the most. I present these myth busters below purely from an honest discussion and debate perspective, and hope to wake up the masses to the reality of housing within and outside the United States.
Myth #1 : Home prices flat or falling is good for future generations
When the current generation is getting utterly destroyed and losing its savings and wealth because of stagnating or falling prices, they cut back on all spending. This results in the retailers and service providers not making enough sales, which then leads to job cuts and low wages, which then leads to further cutting back in spending, and this cycle goes on with vastly decreased hiring and much lower wages. With competition between the current generation and the next younger generation for the few available jobs, lower wages etc, how exactly is this better for future generations? New college graduates are finding it extremely difficult to get jobs. See these links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html?_r=1&ref=business
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/19/vanhorn.zukin.jobs/index.html?hpt=C1
Myth #2 : Home prices rising is bad for the economy
There is ample proof around the world to prove this to be a complete and baseless myth. Countries with the most absurd housing price appreciation and bubbles in the past 30 years like India and China, are flourishing with high GDP growth, wage increases etc. Countries where home prices have stagnated or fallen over the past 30 years like in the USA and Japan have collapsed. Enough said...
Myth #3 : There is low inflation in the USA
Food and energy prices have gone up in the past few years considerably. The dollar has lost value against almost all foreign currencies, so assets should be priced higher. Gold is a far better indicator of inflation/falling currency values, and gold has gone up 6 times in the past 10 years, while home prices are now at or below 2000 levels. Even per Case/Shiller, home prices need to at least keep up with inflation. By faking extremely low inflation numbers, the government and economists with ulterior motives have claimed housing to have risen more than inflation. The truth is that house prices have vastly underperformed inflation, and housing in the USA is vastly undervalued compared to the rest of the world.
Myth #4 : There was a huge home price bubble in the USA
See Myth #3 above. Bubbles are relative. The most absurd housing bubbles are in India and China, and not in the developed world. The median single family home price in India's and China's metros is currently over 1 million USD, though the local median annual income in those metros is less than 5000 USD, so it is a median home to median income multiple of 200 in these Asian metros, compared to less than 8 in the United States "bubble" metros even at the peak of the housing price in 2006. Home prices have appreciated about one thousand times (100000.00%) in the past 30 years in India and China, compared to about 3 times in the United States during the same period. Also, these million dollar homes in India and China are extremely small, with no luxury features, and utter squalor all around. When comparing, size, quality, features, surrounding infrastructure and beauty, homes in the USA are unbelievable and absurdly cheap compared to every other country in the world.
Myth #5 : Home price appreciation increases inequality
This is true only in the developing world where only a small percent of the population owns homes. In developed countries where the majority owns homes, the middle class benefits quite a bit from rising home prices. What is happening in the USA now is that the middle class that owned most of the homes is hurting extremely badly from falling home prices and middle class families are getting out of home ownership, while the rich are picking up foreclosed homes at unbelievably low prices and renting them out to the already suffering middle class. The intentional home price collapse in the United States is a conspiracy to transfer massive wealth from the American middle class to the ultra-rich and to buyers from India and China, who can easily buy dozens of luxury homes in America if they sell their small apartments in their Asian metros.
Myth #6 : Home prices collapsed in the USA because they had become too unaffordable
See above myth busters. Homes prices never became "unaffordable" in the USA, especially compared to the rest of the world. What actually happened was that low-income people were allowed to buy dream homes that they could never afford in the first place, thanks to lax lending from banks. As Warren Buffet said recently, it should not be America's social goal to get every family into their dream home, but into a home that they can afford. Housing, especially luxury housing, is not an entitlement, and to expect that palaces of gold should be easily affordable to even the lowest income families is just self-destructive socialistic agenda.
Myth #7 : Median home prices should be at most 3 times the median income to be affordable
This myth/expectation is just plain laughable because the advocates of this multiple never define what the median home is. Should we not divide this at least into apartments, low end homes (1000 sqft or less), middle tier homes (1000-2000 sqft), high end homes (2000 sqft+), and super luxury homes first before we talk about what should be affordable? Then, if the median income cannot easily buy even the apartment or low-end home, you can state the case of unaffordability. Also, how are mortgage rates not part of the calculation of this affordability multiple? Why should this multiple remain "3" whether the mortgage rate is 20% like it was in the 1970s or 4% like it is now?
Myth #8 : Jobs recovery will lead to a housing recovery
Based on all the myth busters detailed above, it is actually the other way around. Jobs follow only when housing is strong and people feel the wealth effect. So long as housing prices keep falling or stagnate, there will never be a true jobs recovery in America.
Myth #9 : Renting is cheaper than buying in the USA
While this may be true in a few places, in most American cities, it is now far cheaper to buy a home than to rent it. Low prices and very low mortgage rates have led to this situation, which is a boon for rich landlords. Rents are also going up in most cities as foreclosed families begin to rent. Beware the bloggers who want median home prices to fall even more from their currently already extremely cheap levels. The goal of these bloggers is to buy those at rock-bottom prices and become very profitable landlords.
Myth #10 : Homes should not be considered investments but merely shelter
State this to any of the billions of people outside the United States and they will kill themselves laughing. Homes have and continue to be the biggest purchase made by most families in the world, throughout history. They are not fools to make it their biggest purchase if it is going to cause them to lose their hard earned wealth.
I know a lot of bloggers on this site will come out attacking my myth busters above. I welcome a civil debate, but please stay away from the needless name-calling, especially if you have nothing to contribute.
#housing