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Slightly OT(but slightly not)...Why are people so dumb?
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2011 Jun 11, 4:34am 23,216 views 174 comments
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B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Jun 12, 2:04pm
MyPunanyIsBiggerThanYourPunany says
Make thy gold mutiply
That pagan didn't understand that you need a very expensive nuclear reaction for transmutation.
Gold don't multiply. Yes, it is money. No, it is not an investment. Because it doesn't multiply/grow, nor does it make income.
FortWayne
2011 Jun 12, 2:58pm
Sure, there is government corruption and there are some union thugs, but for the most part, it is corporate welfare and its lobbying for limited regulation are what have really hurt this country.
Government corruption is corporate welfare. Don't take two as separate please. It's the clubby nature of Washington and K street.
What I mean to say is, I want to die with nothing in my pockets after having a great life enjoying the limited time afforded me. So many on these forums write about how much they have in the bank or in investments. They wake up looking at the balances and pinch every penny. I rent a small apartment, drive a beater, and save 1000 bucks for any emergency. I blow all the rest enjoying myself and on others. By the way I make a six figure salary and have zip in 401k or stocks or banks. They are all setup to take from us.
What the hell do you spend your money on? Prostitues and blow? haha.
SubOink says
klarek says
3. You need help with math.
Definitely! But not from you
Just as well. Haven’t needed to teach basic arithmetic to anybody since I was a teenager, so you could probably find better tutoring.
Love it! We are like Batman and the Joker. You're the Joker.
Well when the govt tries to implement quasi-bubble measures for “softening†the crash (thereby duping dumb people into believing the crash is over therefore buying),
This is what you seem to not get. I didn't buy because I think "the crash" is over. I bought because for years I knew what I wanted to spend and what kind of house I would like to buy. I waited until I could buy what I was looking for, for what I wanted to afford. The time came. I hated renting and wasted way too much money that way. That's not the only thing I hated about renting. But I won't get into it...we all know the reasons as they have been discussed with impunity in this forum.
SubOink says
I know that lending standards are strict because I just went thru it and experienced it first hand. Did you? What do you know? Other than reading patrick.net and doom and gloom statistics.
I know what it was like to get a loan ten years ago, five years ago, and today (I’ve been approved twice in the past eight months). So I have three points to compare. What do you have? Tell me.
Good for you getting pre-approved. Now, what does that have to do with knowing how the loan process goes these days?
Anybody can get pre-approved. There is nothing to it. You have nothing to compare until you go thru an 30 or 45 day escrow these days. Sorry, but your pre approval doesn't mean jack.
terriDeaner
2011 Jun 12, 3:38pm
Go read the book “The Richest Man in Babylonâ€
Oh for fucks sake! This is just more rhetorical horseshit for the chicken soup soul. Fuck. How 'bout "be excellent so that excellence becomes you"... or "losers never win, and winners never lose"? This type of pseudo-intellectual, masterbatory crap is worthless.
Blah, blah, blah…… Now did anyone notice that for the first time in as long as I’ve been coming here religiously on a nightly basis that the daily update is 3 HOURS LATE?!?!
I say it’s time everyone dip in their pocket and send Mr. K a little something to keep his forum up!!
I don't know whether anyone is still following the thread this far down, but I think most of the posts have missed dodgerfan's real point.
I think the point is that we are collectively better off--and most of us are individually better off-- avoiding debt, living within our means, and focusing on the pleasures money doesn't buy. Happiness is not that strongly correlated with accumulating wealth, and for most of us it IS correlated with security and freedom from debt.
That said, if you have a talent for investment and you want to treat your residence as one, you may be an exception--and if you're currently treating your house as an investment, I hope you are.
klarek
2011 Jun 12, 11:16pm
This is what you seem to not get. I didn’t buy because I think “the crash†is over. I bought because for years I knew what I wanted to spend and what kind of house I would like to buy. I waited until I could buy what I was looking for, for what I wanted to afford. The time came. I hated renting and wasted way too much money that way. That’s not the only thing I hated about renting. But I won’t get into it…we all know the reasons as they have been discussed with impunity in this forum.
I asked you up above why you were renting a shitbox which at that price you could have rented the equivalent of what you own now. You never responded.
Good for you getting pre-approved. Now, what does that have to do with knowing how the loan process goes these days?
Anybody can get pre-approved. There is nothing to it. You have nothing to compare until you go thru an 30 or 45 day escrow these days. Sorry, but your pre approval doesn’t mean jack.
Actually, excluding some technicalities like the appraisal price of the house, most everything involving lending limitations is covered in the pre-approval: bank statements, pay stubs, W-2, credit history pull, etc.
Why don't you tell me what's harder about buying a house today versus ten years ago. What's stringent about it? What experience do you have buying houses during normal, pre-bubble times?
Johndavis is right. Buying things like crazy won't get people anywhere. Especially when wants constantly go down in price (electronics). A bigger house means bigger bills (heating/ac, water, etc) maintenance cost money.
I'm sure someone might try to counter with peak earning years but frankly that doesn't apply anymore. Longevity keeps increasing.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Jun 12, 11:26pm
Especially when wants constantly go down in price (electronics).
Moore's Law. An observation Dr. Moore made that cost per component goes down by half every eighteen months or so.
It's become some kinda freakin religion now, like Bay Area Fortress Real Estate.
Moore's Law, a race to the bottom among the competitors. Even when you win, what do you win? The privilege to sell a commodity with ever reduced price. Even when you win, you lose.
bubblesitter
2011 Jun 12, 11:28pm
most of us are individually better off– avoiding debt, living within our means
But then we'll miss the opportunity to get rich investing in RE, isn't it? Living in America debt free is foolish. /sarcasm
tatupu70
2011 Jun 13, 12:11am
most of us are individually better off– avoiding debt, living within our means
But then we’ll miss the opportunity to get rich investing in RE, isn’t it? Living in America debt free is foolish. /sarcasm
Those are two very different ideas. Living within your means is, of course, vitally important. But that is not at all incongruent with taking on some debt. Debt is a tool, used by wise investors.
Living debt free is foolish.
Schizlor
2011 Jun 13, 1:10am
And so onto my question…Where is the disconnect? How did we go from immigrants who could not speak the language comming here and building a hard scrabble life into the quintissential American Dream….to what we have now days.
"I'm telling you. We're getting sloppy.
Our thinking, our fucking attitude,
you know?
We're not fucking hungry anymore."
-Tony Montana
Sure, there is government corruption and there are some union thugs, but for the most part, it is corporate welfare and its lobbying for limited regulation are what have really hurt this country.
Government corruption is corporate welfare. Don’t take two as separate please. It’s the clubby nature of Washington and K street.
For the most part, agreed, ChrisLA. Taking money from corporations to get elected in exchange for passing laws favorable to corporations is a form of quid pro quo. However, I wouldnt call the thieves in Bell part of corporate welfare.
FortWayne
2011 Jun 13, 1:19am
“I’m telling you. We’re getting sloppy.
Our thinking, our fucking attitude,
you know?We’re not fucking hungry anymore.â€
-Tony Montana
That is certainly a huge factor. I see this a lot in younger crowd. They have lived such a comfortable life that they don't actually know what it is like to be hungry. Many have grown to expect goods and services from society without lifting a finger. The attitude of "I want it now therefore I should have it now."
I do not believe that is a good thing.
There's no need for people to get all bent out of shape over this. I get what the OP was alluding to which is the notion that materialism has become a much larger aspect of today's living. I don't know if I would put it that way because there's always been "those who came first" and since technology and science advances with time so too does the general quality of life. In the 40's and 50's there were many wondrous new thing that came about. Television, hi-fi, advanced medicine, electronic computers, jet powered passenger planes and so on. Just previously in the 30's most of the country lacked electricity or indoor plumbing, which only come with the rural electrification board. I have no doubt that the old timers of the day complained about the then youngsters and their new-fangled gadget filled houses and ridiculous cars with fins.
Its interesting now because my generation ( 30's) is just now getting to that age where things like boom boxes, Atari, The Cosby Show and other relic of the 80's are becoming sentimental and romanticized. I even hear people say how much better it was back then ( which makes sense: you were a kid!)
Where am I going with this? Every generation lays blame on other generations. Either that or they make generalized assumptions of what it was like or how much better/worse a certain time or era was. Hence the reason why people seem to be so attached to the 50's-80's mantra of the "American Dream" which is now archaic and mostly impractical.
As far as houses and whether its dumb or smart to buy them, its neither. I don't feel smarter or dumber for renting. It makes financial sense for our particular situation. On the other hand I know people who are paying way too much for rent. The same goes for people who've bought. Whatever's right for you is going to be the best outcome.
Katy Perry
2011 Jun 13, 2:46am
Not really. Go read the main page. It isn’t anti-owning, it’s anti-buying-like-a-dumbass. Those who strive to not make the biggest purchase in their lives like a dumbass have found value in this site.
Well said.
SubOink says
This is what you seem to not get. I didn’t buy because I think “the crash†is over. I bought because for years I knew what I wanted to spend and what kind of house I would like to buy. I waited until I could buy what I was looking for, for what I wanted to afford. The time came. I hated renting and wasted way too much money that way. That’s not the only thing I hated about renting. But I won’t get into it…we all know the reasons as they have been discussed with impunity in this forum.
I asked you up above why you were renting a shitbox which at that price you could have rented the equivalent of what you own now. You never responded.
Sorry, I forgot to answer that. Trust me, we looked hard to find a better house at same rental price but every house was an equal 1950's shitbox renting between 2500-3000/month - we realized that our rent was considered "a deal" ...very frustrating. The rental inventory in Calabasas, Woodland Hills (south), Encino/Tarzana (south of blvd) is very low actually. People get astronomical rent prices. There is very high demand on rents now because all the foreclosed people have to live somewhere. We realized that we would have to sacrifice neighborhood. But why would I spend that much on rent when I can buy for it? I work from home and have been wanting to build an actual home office. So the house we bought has a separate guest house which is now my office. Just for the record, the house we bought was previously rented to 2 different parties. Main house for $2500.- and guest house for $950...The people that sold needed to move fast...patience was a virtue all these years but being ready to jump got me an amazing deal here. There were multiple offers but all FHA. I was the 20% down guy and got the house even though my offer was lower than the others.
So, maybe you can see that it was a very logical, common sense step. It's a great time to buy when its right for your own personal situation.
klarek says
Not really. Go read the main page. It isn’t anti-owning, it’s anti-buying-like-a-dumbass. Those who strive to not make the biggest purchase in their lives like a dumbass have found value in this site.
Well said.
Okay, maybe I am reading the wrong page but what I found on the front page was this...
"Why It's A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive House"
Beats me but somehow that sounds like you should N O T buy a house now. in other words for right now the website advocates RENTING. Just like I said.
I think the point is that we are collectively better off–and most of us are individually better off– avoiding debt, living within our means, and focusing on the pleasures money doesn’t buy
There is no such thing as debt free. Life costs money. You need a place to live and if you cannot afford to buy a house with cash you have 2 choices...rent or buy one. If you think you are debt free as a renter because you don't have a 30 year mortgage than you are lying to yourself because as long as you have to rent...you have the debt of paying rent. You OWE the landlord a rent check every month. Whether you relocate to another rental or not...you owe a rent check. The sucky part is that rents are subject to change. And rents track inflation. So you are on the hook for more and more rent over the years.
Same in a 30 year mortgage..you owe the mortgage except that payment is going to be the exact same until the house is yours.
Debt Free would be to move in the mountains, be completely self contained, own well, solar power, no tv, internet...and no prop tax even. Not sure if there is such a place and if it would be desirable to live like that. Maybe it would. I don't know. I'll try it in my next life...maybe. Maybe not. :)
zzyzzx
2011 Jun 13, 3:38am
I heard someone once say There are a lot of really stupid people out there, and quite frankly, it explains a lot of human behavior.
zzyzzx
2011 Jun 13, 3:41am
I would have to put some of the blame on lawyers. Yes lawyers. Oh you spilled hot coffee on yourself while driving - not your fault the coffee was too hot. I’ll get you millions. Oh you slipped and fell in a store - not your fault. I’ll get you big $$$. Got fired from your job….not your fault. Sue and get $$$$$. People have somehow got the belief that they are NOT responsible for their situation and that they are entitled to everything they want. We have become a nation of irresponsible, dumb asses who believe they are owed a certain lifestyle and someone else should provide it for them
It wasn't that long ago that lawyers could not advertise on TV. That law needs to be brought back.
It wasn’t that long ago that lawyers could not advertise on TV. That law needs to be brought back.
Lawyer advertising is regulated state-by-state. Lobby your legislature if you want this to change.
I would have to put some of the blame on lawyers. Yes lawyers. Oh you spilled hot coffee on yourself while driving - not your fault the coffee was too hot. I’ll get you millions.
There are egregious cases, like the McDonald's coffee cup, but you will find that average and median payouts have decreased quite greatly when you adjust for inflation. Most of the people who blame lawyers are doing so for ideological reasons, not for numerical ones. Most cases get dismissed, and judges are quite good at throwing out frivolous cases.
bough some condo for USD 30K in Mumbai and sold it for 350K
Good investment scheme. You may want to consider buying that for 350K and sell it for 3500K.
bubblesitter ,
I did buy some properties, flats and all of them have doubled in less than 4 years. But the properties in Mumbai have become 10 times.
Also....
It's really a frinedly advise , you are going to keep sitting bubbles while the rest of the world profits from it.
bubblesitter
2011 Jun 13, 5:31am
rest of the world profits from it.
I am happy for you and good luck on your money making adventures.
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2011 Jun 13, 5:39am
Okay, maybe I am reading the wrong page but what I found on the front page was this…
“Why It’s A Terrible Time To Buy An Expensive Houseâ€
Beats me but somehow that sounds like you should N O T buy a house now. in other words for right now the website advocates RENTING. Just like I said.
Why do you continually persist on putting your little neck of the woods as the face of the entire state? You qualify and quantify down to a minimal area, rife with SFR's, and bereft of rental units, then you extrapolate that to include every other neighborhood. WTF dude? Why are you SO over the top defensive? You bought, you're happy. Is there some ridiculous emotional need/want that compels you to think that every negative comment about the housing market is directed personally at you?
And the statement means exactly what it says. Its a horrible time to buy an EXPENSIVE house. Nothing more, nothing less. I see nothing in the statement implying its a horrible time to buy a reasonably priced house. Just expensive ones.
I did buy some properties, flats and all of them have doubled in less than 4 years. But the properties in Mumbai have become 10 times.
Where in Mumbai and when did you buy and sell, and for what price? Also, what type of flats?
Schizlor
2011 Jun 13, 5:58am
If you think you are debt free as a renter because you don’t have a 30 year mortgage than you are lying to yourself because as long as you have to rent…you have the debt of paying rent. You OWE the landlord a rent check every month.
What???
Does that mean I am in debt to Subway because they won't give me my sandwich until they have the money in hand?
Rent isn't paid in arrears; mortgage payments are. When you pay a mortgage payment May 1, you are paying for April's principal, interest, taxes, and insurance. You are paying on a debt. Money already owed, meaning you already consumed the good before you paid for it, and are thus "in debt" for it.
When you cut a rent check for May 1, you are paying May's rent. It's a purchase, not repayment of a debt. You pay, and are now entitled to 31 days use of that property going forward. You then pay again to obtain another month's use of the property on June 1, and so on.
I can't believe you're arguing that any time you have to pay money for something, that means you're paying on a debt.
And the statement means exactly what it says. Its a horrible time to buy an EXPENSIVE house. Nothing more, nothing less. I see nothing in the statement implying its a horrible time to buy a reasonably priced house. Just expensive ones.
Duh! It's ALWAYS a bad time to buy ANYTHING expensive.
"expensive" is relative. Like Klarek said $450k is expensive to him. To me that is dirt cheap. After all, that's what we are all arguing about here for the most part.
I have always been the one advocating buying something reasonable and something you can afford but there are folks here that take it to the next level. Nothing is reasonable, the apocalypse is coming, doom and gloom...one should not buy ANY house because we are going straight to hell. That's 90% of patrick.netters. Totally ridiculous.
I am trying to infuse some common sense here. Some balance. I am lucky to have a couple of older friends that have given me decent advise against my often too scared nature and I simply trying to share that. As soon as I mention anything about it - you guys keep going crazy. It's not me that's on the defense. Its you guys defending your little doom and gloom world mindset.
But you are right...I probably should just stay out of it :) I just can't help myself sometimes. Especially when I read complete non-sense.
I can’t believe you’re arguing that any time you have to pay money for something, that means you’re paying on a debt.
You didn't get it...I did not say that any time you have to pay money for something you are paying on a debt.
I was saying that because you have to live somewhere there is no way to get around having to pay that rent EVERY month. It doesn't matter if you are technically paying on something you owe or not because the fact is...you are paying your rent every month and I am paying my mortgage every month.
We are both forced to keep working to pay that rent or mortgage.
Yes, technically you are "debt free"...but in reality you have to come up with the money EVERY month to pay your rent. Do you not??
I have always been the one advocating buying something reasonable and something you can afford but there are folks here that take it to the next level. Nothing is reasonable, the apocalypse is coming, doom and gloom…one should not buy ANY house because we are going straight to hell. That’s 90% of patrick.netters. Totally ridiculous.
That's my biggest beef with people on here lately. They act like it is still 2006-2007. And they worry about the most unlikely events - eminent domain and other absurd things that almost never happen. They still make arguments that people only purchase in prime areas using NINJA loans even those haven't been around for 3+ years, yet plenty of sales (not peak numbers, but well above nobody buying) are still happening. They are ultra-uber-conservative and won't buy but with cash. They redefine words or phrases such that you don't own your home until it is paid off - even though such terminology has been used for the past 50 years. To some, a mortgage is a life sentence or indentured servitude. Too much worry; too much negativity.
klarek
2011 Jun 13, 6:43am
That’s my biggest beef with people on here lately. They act like it is still 2006-2007.
That's because despite prices being more affordable (though still correcting), it's a LOT like that period of time when buyers were using asinine and purely made-up reasons for buying. Or worse, they caveat it with no-brainers such as "I can afford it".
Well gee, Sherlock, you sure figured out how to unfuck yourself from this jam. You should write an economic thesis on how the time to buy is when it feels right and you can afford it. It's like I'm reliving the housing bubble's peak and beginning collapse again. The prices are different, but the rationalizations are every bit as stupid as they were then.
klarek
2011 Jun 13, 6:48am
It doesn’t matter if you are technically paying on something you owe or not because the fact is…you are paying your rent every month and I am paying my mortgage every month.
LOL dude... just stop. You're seriously embarrassing yourself. There's no way that you cannot understand the concept of "debt". Nobody over the age of 10 could be this clueless. You're just going overboard with your post-purchase rationalization.
That’s because despite prices being more affordable (though still correcting), it’s a LOT like that period of time when buyers were using asinine and purely made-up reasons for buying. Or worse, they caveat it with no-brainers such as “I can afford itâ€.
The bubble existed mainly because credit was given to those who should not have received it, with loans that were temporary. It had nothing to do with people purchasing houses they could afford. It doesn't matter if someone's reason for buying a house is because the house is pink and orange and those are their favorite colors, if they can afford the house, that is all that matters. And when I say "afford," I mean it isn't overly burdensome in relation to their income and they have a rainy day fund. My understanding is that the requirements to receive a loan are much higher than the past, some say too restrictive. If that's the case, and people are still buying, then it means the people buying now are able to afford their houses.
LOL dude… just stop. You’re seriously embarrassing yourself. There’s no way that you cannot understand the concept of “debtâ€.
Concept of "debt" ?
I was N O T talking about the concept of debt...why do you insist on twisting and turning my words to try to prove me wrong in some way. Stop being so defensive and try to get my point. You are embarrassing yourself with your hyper angry attitude.
But let me ask you...do you not have to pay rent every month until you die unless you bought a house free and clear?
Klarek, you'll be psyched...I won't interrupt your doom and gloom propaganda for at least 3 weeks now cause we're hopping over to Maui for a little while. No phones, internet allowed.
Hope you find some peace in the meantime. Stop getting pre-approved and not buying...it makes you miserable. I can tell that you are very frustrated with life. The truth is...you are just a hater that wishes he could buy a house.
Aloha!!
Schizlor
2011 Jun 13, 7:21am
Yes, technically you are “debt freeâ€â€¦but in reality you have to come up with the money EVERY month to pay your rent. Do you not??
Yes, but it's not debt. I'm obligated, biologically, to put fuel in my body or else it will run out of energy and die. I have no option to not do this. I am forced to seek food every day, until I die. That doesn't mean that me paying for my meal with a $10 bill, or charging my meal to a credit card, are exactly the same thing. One is using past labor (surplus on hand) to obtain real goods/services in the present. The other is taking something for free in the present, and promising your future output (with interest) as defferred compensation. In that respect, they could not be more different.
Schizlor
2011 Jun 13, 7:27am
The bubble existed mainly because credit was given to those who should not have received it, .......... It had nothing to do with people purchasing houses they could afford
Forgive my obtuseness, but please explain why those people should not have received the credit again? Because if it's not because they couldn't afford it in the first place, then I'm stumped.
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I am not talking about IQ or intelligence level.
I'm talking about uncaring and unthinking. The people who walk or drive around in a daze....they have the intellectual capacity, but choose not to use it.
The people who buy houses in CA at the moment.
This is actually sort of a serious question. And for it I go back to my grandparents. Immigrated here from Germany in the early 1920's. Both their parents had fought in WWI for the Germans, and they came here because Germany was @^%$^ up. Seriously, my grandfather was starving to death in Berlin. Came here, learned english real quick, finished school up through 8th grade and thats it. Went to work. No advanced education. Not even a serious worker. My grandfather played semi pro baseball and was drafted by the Yankees, but broke his leg on the last game before reporting to the Yankees minor league team. My grandmothers life was unremarkable as well. I'm not even sure when they met.
But they did, saved, went to work really hard jobs during the depression, saved more, bought a house. In 1941 at age 37, my grandfather, with baby on the way, was drafted into WWII. He was a medic under Gen. Stillwell in southeast asia, assigned to assist a Chinese Army unit. At some point along the way, things were a real bloodbath there. I only know that from history, he would never talk about it except to complain about marching over the Burma road a couple times, and saying that they had to stand watch at night more due to the tigers than the japanese.
When he got back, they stayed in the same 2 bed/1ba house, even with a kid. He got a job at a nearby tire factory. They were happy and even though they never had a TON of money to spend, they enjoyed life pretty well. honestly, California seems to have been almost a magical place in the 50's. The picture perfect land of milk and honey.
After years at the tire factory, he became very involved with the union, eventually retiring and going to work for the union full time. At some point in the early 70's, he felt the union was pushing pay too much. He warned that the tire company would move if the union kept trying to negotiate higher salaries. He retired in 1975 in part because of the unions insistence on negotiating higher salaries. The tire factory closed in 1979, and I can't remember if they moved to another state, or overseas, but nearly all their production is now overseas. The location is now the Citadel shopping center in Commerce.
So he retired at 65, enjoyed the last 10 years of his life retired. Never spent a lot...def did not buy stuff he did not need. He did collect stamps, coins, and model trains. He started buying me baseball cards in 1979 when he would pick me up from school once a week. We would go and get an ice cream at Thrifty's and a $0.15 pack of Topps baseball cards. He drove the same car for 10 years before replacing it, took a vacation once a year, spent when it was justified, was frugal most of the rest of the time.
My grandmother was a clerk with the county part time for 30 years.
Despite no real education, they managed all this(with six figures in the bank as well). They used what was known as "common sense". Things they could not figure out for themselves...they took the advice of someone who was brighter. They did things the "tried and true" way. And they never needed, wanted, or pursued extravagance, even when they had actually worked hard and earned it. A night out once a week was an ice cream cone and movie in a more upscale area like Whittier or Downey. Vacation was a tent in Yosemite. A car was a means to transport them somewhere. Pleasure was a glass of fresh squeezed orange juice on the backyard patio.
So whats the point of all this? It's to question how people currently live their lives. Still after all the economic problems of the past 6-7 years, people still INSIST entitlement to material goods. People still stretch to buy the most house they can possibly get a loan for. And people still run around without any regard for common sense.
And so onto my question...Where is the disconnect? How did we go from immigrants who could not speak the language comming here and building a hard scrabble life into the quintissential American Dream....to what we have now days. People who are seemingly incapable of exercising common sense. People who spend nonsensical high 6 and low seven figure amounts on homes and land that in no way shape or form will ultimately sustain a value that high. People who make the largest(by far) purchase of their life on whimsy and emotion USING SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY(EFF U SUZANNE).