patrick.net

There has been a bit of anti college rhetoric lately. I think that the placement of it should be more against FAFSA than anything else. When we subsidize student loans it makes them easier to get and it fills classes. But this just leads to prices going up.

Not all students end up in debt. Many schools have payment plans that make it simpler rather than paying it all at once. Go to public instead of private, buy used instead of new books (ebooks are growing anyway), go to a two year first before a four year (that way after two years you have a degree instead of just credits) Educational debt cannot be removed in bankruptcy so saving money in it does make sense.

From an employer point of view it is much easier to confirm a degree than someones experience. A century ago employers might have taught people skills but these days they are proprietary (outside of government compliance). It makes little sense for say IBM to each something that has a value to AT&T. I have seen companies that use generic software that looks like say..Excel but it isn't because they don't want people to learn a skill that has a use somewhere else. With education one can see transcripts showing classes, grades, who the professor was etc. With experience there's no real incentive for companies to provide information on prior employees.

Employers want more and more. In the 1980's this started with drug tests, later in the 90s it was background checks and now some are even doing credit checks. The argument is if you can connect a job to finances then you shouldn't have people in debt around it.

Vocational schools are nice as a concept but unfortunately much of them were simply tied to housing. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical..it's not the same market. I remember my high school had a vocational wing and during a tour a teach there told us "You don't need to learn any foreign languages, any math or science...ALL you need to know is..." sweet lord. I personally know mechanics that state not to become one because it is a thankless job. He was even in a union and frankly it didn't help (no strike fund, no pay raises unless ironically he gets a degree). You also have a fair amount that cannot fix cars due to the OBE-II systems (check engine lights) and have to go to a dealership.

"There are only a few jobs these days where its really worth it to try and immigrate to another country"

Depends. Teaching English as a foreign language is a large field. They often can give dirt cheap if not free housing. This is if you have a bachelors or higher though.

As for silicon valley and ripping people off it happens all the time. Steve Jobs originally worked for Nolan Bushnell at Atari. If they had more money the Apple 1 would have been Atari. They didn't have enough funds so Jobs left. But yet there are also companies that buy out companies not to use their material but to make sure others don't. Be was bought by Palm and then Palm was bought by HP. Apple could have bought be back in '96 instead of Next but stupidly chose not to.

Lastly is that there is a growing field companies that might slap a degree as a requirement for top management. If you are working 50 hours a week it will take a long time to get a degree. In the northeast you pretty much have to have a degree to get a job. When over a third of people have degree and the numbers keep increasing eventually it will cross 50% and if you don't have one then you are sol.

Actually, I don't have any problem with promoting the $2000 per semester JUCO or Trade school. These are awesome programs with a proven track record of success. They are value bets.

They're much better than droppping $10000 per semester for a state University.

Nomograph says

The anti-education crowd here are the same folks who complain because they can’t afford housing.

Interesting.

I'm just out of college with a good job after finishing a four year school. I'd say 5% of what I learned is relevant, and it isn't anything I couldn't have taught myself. College is just used to help define a class structure. I'm not anti-education, but colleges fill the course load with so much waste to keep you there 4 years, not to mention it's really an excuse to party for most.

I can't afford a house yet, but by afford I mean pay for a house in full. I could go out tomorrow and get a big bank loan, but that's not me affording to buy a house, it's just me being in debt to the bank for 30 years. I want at least 50% down on a house that's only 2x times my yearly salary. Almost there.

StoutFiles says

colleges fill the course load with so much waste to keep you there 4 years

That's how they run their business and pensions. In real world none of those courses come handy.

Nomograph says

The anti-education crowd here are the same folks who complain because they can’t afford housing.

Being able to afford housing is different than thinking an asset is overpriced

justme says

llege Value Calculator, anyone?

I am going to try to make one of these. I am trying to learn how to code in Python.

corntrollio says

The title implies college is a good investment for cashiers. What?! If I drop $200K to go to college and then work at 7-11, college is a good investment?

That’s not exactly what the article said. It said that you can go to public college for $2000/year, when you consider federal aid, and gave a cite. No one suggested going to Schools for the Dumb Rich if you’re a cashier.

This is a fair point. I overstated.

PRIME says

justme says

llege Value Calculator, anyone?

I am going to try to make one of these. I am trying to learn how to code in Python.

That would be interesting. I think you should start with an apples-to-apples comparison, that is, compare high school graduates and college graduates with similar ACT/SAT scores. The usual media story makes a simplistic calculation of HS grads and college grads and says "College grads make X more!". Well, duh. College filters out the functional illiterates. I've no doubts that college grads make more, but I'm sure the difference is less than the simplistic comparison. I'm also sure the comparisons are well documented, but aren't nearly as shocking as the typical media story claims.

And I know this is beyond the scope of your project, but what difference would it make if all adults in the US somehow earned a college degree? Would the GDP go up a little, or alot?

Nomograph says

The anti-education crowd here are the same folks who complain because they can’t afford housing.

Interesting.

Considering that the costs of a college education have been going up faster than inflation for years, I'm not surprised that housing skeptics are also college education skeptics.

mdovell says

I think that the placement of it should be more against FAFSA than anything else.

FAFSA is just a form that you fill out to calculate the federal formula for aid. Do you mean the Dept of Ed? Or perhaps a particular division of the government that is involved in student loans?

mdovell says

You also have a fair amount that cannot fix cars due to the OBE-II systems (check engine lights) and have to go to a dealership.

OBD-II has been around since 1996. If those mechanics haven't evolved beyond 16 year-old cars, they deservedly are out of jobs.

mdovell says

A century ago employers might have taught people skills but these days they are proprietary (outside of government compliance). It makes little sense for say IBM to each something that has a value to AT&T. I have seen companies that use generic software that looks like say..Excel but it isn’t because they don’t want people to learn a skill that has a use somewhere else.

I don't buy this, actually -- whether the companies like it or not, the knowledge is not turning out to be proprietary. If anything, jobs have become more mobile, not less mobile. Back in the day, people mostly worked for one company, and that's it. Now, it's not expected that you'll have lifetime tenure with one company. Regardless of whether companies intend that their job skills are transferable, those job skills are in fact transferable because people increasingly switch jobs.

EMan says

College is good if you can’t learn to do something on your own. And of course if you plan to go to elite financial institutions than without you going to Yale/Stanford or some other prestige school those doors will be closed, since those places are a club.

What's interesting according to recent studies is that going to an Ivy League school like Yale or Harvard doesn't make as much of a difference in terms of long-term job prospects/income as does *applying* to an Ivy League school. The bona fide chance of being admitted is a huge qualification, because those people are likely motivated and intellectual curious. Whether they actually get admitted is a combination of luck, demographics, and various other factors.

This gives a lot of credence to what PRIME said above about how it could be that the people who go to college are smarter, more motivated, intellectually curious people who make more money, and what I said, that plumbers who went to college might be better problem-solvers and better businesspersons for a variety of reasons.

EMan says

With the way information is shared on the internet now, colleges seem a bit like an outdated way to learn. It’s good for socializing perhaps and frat parties, but not for education. I graduated long ago, biggest waste of my time and money. Four years of my life I will not get back.

Bummer for you, college for me was awesome. That's four years of my life I'd love to be back in. Add that to the fact that if I knew then what I know now, e.g. that college would be the most freedom I'd ever have in life and that I should have been more willing to learn new things and less risk-adverse at times, college would have been even more fun than it already was. I agree that part of going to college is socializing, etc., but it's less true for college than say business school.

To some extent this goes back to what PRIME said -- if you are intellectually curious, then college can be quite great. You can enrich yourself in many ways.

What many of you seem to be criticizing is the vast majority of art history majors, for example, who don't plan to work at a museum. My friend who was an art history major who now works at a major NY museum was quite intellectual curious about art and knew it was what she wanted to do. The people I knew who got random liberal arts degrees because it was "something to do," less so.

It's like the people who get law degrees because "it's a versatile degree" or "it can help me get other jobs besides being an attorney" or "my mom wants me to do it." That's not really a great rationale to go to law school.

"They’re much better than droppping $10000 per semester for a state University."
A few extra p's there :-p but most state universities don't cost 10K a semester
http://www.umb.edu/administration_finance/bursar/tuition_fees.html
Now if you are a non resident then it's high but I highly doubt anyone would not try to get residency at any public university if they are not a resident. I'm not saying that UMass Boston's rates are indicative of other schools but I haven't seen that many public institutions that high..private sure.

"FAFSA is just a form that you fill out to calculate the federal formula for aid. Do you mean the Dept of Ed? Or perhaps a particular division of the government that is involved in student loans?"
Basically the whole public student loan market. Granted Obama did make things a tad better by taking middlemen out but just the idea that nearly anyone financially can attend is a bit shaky. It means more and more debt will pile up. On the same note in Mass we have what is called the community preservation act. The state will match with towns dollar for dollar what is put into a fund to preserve land. Sounds good...except the matching is based on what ever town was in first. Those that got in years ago have great deals..the last town is going to be screwed.

"OBD-II has been around since 1996. If those mechanics haven’t evolved beyond 16 year-old cars, they deservedly are out of jobs."
Google "right to repair"
http://www.righttorepair.org/about/reality.aspx
I listen to NYC radio sometimes and on WUSB and WBAI Emmanual Goldstein (he's a host) bought a Smart car in canada and lives in the NYC metro area. When the check engine light came on he brought it to a shop..the shop told him to go to a dealership. The dealership said due to software license issues he'd have to go back to the Canadian dealership! A friend I know that's a mechanic scanned mine once due to a light..the meter doesn't read Nissans. When I went to a dealership about it later I had to go back three times and at one point they stated they cannot guarantee that the light won't come back on. You cannot pass inspection in my state with that light on..eventually the issue was solved but it creates a significant monopoly that the auto companies want more money in maintenance (can't blame them) by putting codes in a closed format. I'm not against computers in cars but what is wrong with knowing what is wrong? It's not like you have to take a computer back to microsoft to get it fixed if you get a BSOD.

"I don’t buy this, actually — whether the companies like it or not, the knowledge is not turning out to be proprietary. If anything, jobs have become more mobile, not less mobile. Back in the day, people mostly worked for one company, and that’s it. Now, it’s not expected that you’ll have lifetime tenure with one company. Regardless of whether companies intend that their job skills are transferable, those job skills are in fact transferable because people increasingly switch jobs."

Experience in one company is not indicative of another. I've seen someone quit over that once. He had experience with a competitor and thought he could just use equipment. He was grossly overweight to the point where he could not use that equipment by our standards. Not all companies have the same standards as everyone else. At one point I worked with former coal miners from Appalachia. Without question some of the hardest working people I've seen in my life.But if left alone they throw enough caution into the wind to cause a heart attack. It got to the point where the company no longer allows employees to work directly with them.

The culture of some companies is largely enough to dictate specifically as to how things are to be done. I'm sure you know of Sigma six but IBM for quite some time had a hard doctrine and so did At&t.

I will say you DO have to be versatile. By that I mean open to move, open to train, open to be trained. A colleague of mine travels to Europe (Netherlands I believe) and Asia (Philippines) a few times a year. There's no doubt in my mind that had he not agreed to do that he would be unemployed by now. I would also say working for a company for a long period of time eventually looks bad because it shows a lack of demand. It would mean the employee is solely dependent on the viability of that organization. I would also add if someone works for the largest companies in their field and gets laid off they can be at a disadvantage because smaller firms might not have the same resources, needs or technologies.

A job should also be viewed upon the variance that it experiences. If someone is a police officer in Kimball Nebraska for say 15 years vs. one that has spent the past five years in LA the one in LA has probably had a much higher amount of experience. Eventually there is a limit to experience in a given job unless it has significant variance. Experience usually is equated with seeing a diverse amount of material and being able to solve problems and issues.

I hear you on law school. Personally I would never want to become a lawyer or doctor. Sure the money can be there but being 100K in debt is not for me. The other issue I've noticed is some that change their major say more than twice and if there are credits strung across a half dozen or so schools. As far as from what I understand most at least in the north east don't allow you to transfer more than two years.

mdovell says

Be was bought by Palm and then Palm was bought by HP. Apple could have bought be back in ‘96 instead of Next but stupidly chose not to.

To be fair Jean-Louis Gassée refused Apple's offer of $200 million and held out for $400 million.

Palm paid $11 million for Be.

mdovell says

A friend I know that’s a mechanic scanned mine once due to a light..the meter doesn’t read Nissans. When I went to a dealership about it later I had to go back three times and at one point they stated they cannot guarantee that the light won’t come back on. You cannot pass inspection in my state with that light on..

It sounds like the mechanics you are talking to haven't kept up with the times. Did you even ask them what the code was? You have to evolve with your profession or it'll leave you behind. What you are getting is bad information. Just because your mechanic friend's code reader couldn't deal with Nissans doesn't mean all code readers or all mechanics are like that. I can buy an OBD-II cable for my car, can get the codes, and can reprogram certain settings for Canada vs. U.S. vs. EU. So can you.

With respect to the SMART car, I think either Goldstein is not giving all the information, or the dealership isn't. They need to be more specific than "licensing issue," e.g. does the Canadian version actually have different software? I doubt it. Does the Canadian version require a client software that's not easily available or licensed for the U.S.? That's possible, but less likely than say EU vs. US because usually cars for the North American market are largely similar. This again sounds like it's coming from someone uninformed.

My mechanic does just fine with these things. He can read the code and he lists them for me so I can look them up myself too. Because he does not have a re-programming machine, he calls his contracted guy to do that and charges it to me at his cost (which is less than 2/3 of what the dealer charges to reprogram). Reprogramming is extremely rare -- it is usually only if there is a TSB on something or if there is a recall (if it's a recall, the dealership does it for free, obviously).

He was grossly overweight to the point where he could not use that equipment by our standards.

This sounds like an equipment difference, not that proprietary skills are involved. Also, I don't understand why you're comparing coal mining to IBM. Yes, if you work at company X vs. company Y, then you may have to use different software, different computers, and generally different equipment, but that doesn't say anything about skills.

mdovell says

There has been a bit of anti college rhetoric lately

No there hasn't, you're just misreading and/or interpreting. What others and I are saying is that college should be cheaper, the college debt dischargable, and college shouldn't be required to get a job. There should be options.

mdovell says

Not all students end up in debt.

Nearly all of them do. Most families don't have the cash for college and you know it. So don't go trying to make that mountain look like a molehill, it makes you seem facetious.

mdovell says

From an employer point of view it is much easier to confirm a degree than someones experience.

BS. You can easily and cheaply do a backround search on someone these days through services like Spokeo. Especially if they have a Facebook or MySpace account. Also there is such a thing as doing the classic call up previous employers and check on the employees thing that is still done today.

mdovell says

Employers want more and more.

Sure but is that OK or even good? I'll tell you right now it isn't since labor is under represented in this country and more and more is being abused.

mdovell says

Vocational schools are nice as a concept but unfortunately much of them were simply tied to housing. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical..it’s not the same market.

You left out other stuff like machinist, welder, and yes even IT, as well as nursing, mechanic, etc. There is no goddamn reason at all to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to go to college to learn these things.

mdovell says

I personally know mechanics that state not to become one because it is a thankless job.

Oh yea? Well I know mechanics and machinists who get paid more than some college grads who love their job and get a kick out of building things every day. That is 2 people dude so my anecdote trumps yours.

That is sarcasm BTW...
mdovell says

You also have a fair amount that cannot fix cars due to the OBE-II systems (check engine lights) and have to go to a dealership.

What the shit is this? You can get OBEII readers off ebay that do the job for most any car out there for less than $50 these days. Its not the late 90's anymore dude.

mdovell says

Depends. Teaching English as a foreign language is a large field. They often can give dirt cheap if not free housing. This is if you have a bachelors or higher though.

Teaching overseas isn't worth it anymore unless you've got a cherry job already lined up with overseas buds. Hasn't been worth it to teach overseas in most countries since the early 2000's, the field got saturated with people fresh out of college who wanted to go overseas and see the world when word got out how "sweet" it was. You also tend to get paid shit even if you do pull it off now, which is fine inside most forgein countries since cost of living scales but when you get back to the US, which you will you will have almost no money.

mdovell says

When over a third of people have degree and the numbers keep increasing eventually it will cross 50% and if you don’t have one then you are sol.

Great anti labor attitude you're sporting there. Expecting most everyone to go into debt just to have a chance at a job, any job much less a decent one, is regressive in the extreme.

"To be fair Jean-Louis Gassée refused Apple’s offer of $200 million and held out for $400 million. Palm paid $11 million for Be."
True although I do have to say that having used Be it was years ahead of what apple had.Then again when a founder comes back it's hard to ignore them.

"It sounds like the mechanics you are talking to haven’t kept up with the times. Did you even ask them what the code was? You have to evolve with your profession or it’ll leave you behind. What you are getting is bad information. Just because your mechanic friend’s code reader couldn’t deal with Nissans doesn’t mean all code readers or all mechanics are like that. I can buy an OBD-II cable for my car, can get the codes, and can reprogram certain settings for Canada vs. U.S. vs. EU. So can you."

I didn't say all code readers couldn't read it. His couldn't.

" This again sounds like it’s coming from someone uninformed."

Well that's what happened. You can read it for yourself here
http://www.451s.com/profile/EmmanuelGoldstein?xg_source=activity
"But every now and then I have to deal with some insanity caused by a combination of technology and the fact that the car is licensed to another country. For instance, no Smart dealer in the U.S. was allowed to do any maintenance on this car because they had no access to the computer system with the codes for this model. Last year, the main computer in the car failed less than a month after the warranty expired and it cost over $3000 to replace when there was nothing mechanically wrong with the car. Both of these involved having to drive to Canada to resolve the problems. But I digress."

I'm not doubting that eventually codes can be found and fixed but the process is not always as simple. I had a small evap leak..which is fine but even in knowing that the error message is not specific enough to indicate WHERE the leak is. I have no problem with electronics as long as it gets specific..like in the near future I think they have a mandate that cars will indicate when there is low tire pressure.

"What others and I are saying is that college should be cheaper, the college debt dischargable, and college shouldn’t be required to get a job. There should be options."

I wouldn't say it should be discharged but costs should at least flatten. If we keep subsidizing it naturally it will keep going up. College is generally required by some employers because high school isn't enough. Not all high schools have the same funding, classes, staffing etc. So the only way to remedy this is to go further up. I just have to ask if someone has no experience or degree what employer takes the risk of hiring that person?

"Nearly all of them do. Most families don’t have the cash for college and you know it. So don’t go trying to make that mountain look like a molehill, it makes you seem facetious"
Nearly all? Try 2/3rds
http://www.finaid.org/loans/
Personally I'm not a fan of the private for profit schools and the data here indicates why.
Undergrad debt for a public 2 year degree is less than 11K. High end degrees in law, business and medicine do have high debt there's no argument there. For a four year public school the amount borrowing is $23,227...which is about 5K less than the median price for buying a new car
www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm

"BS. You can easily and cheaply do a backround search on someone these days through services like Spokeo. Especially if they have a Facebook or MySpace account. Also there is such a thing as doing the classic call up previous employers and check on the employees thing that is still done today."

Myspace? sweet lord man that thing is dead. Employers do not always provide information. I used to skiptrace for a living so I know. There's so many fake profiles on those sites that it can be hard to determine what is real. You do know that people can block Spokeo listenings...right ?

"Sure but is that OK or even good? I’ll tell you right now it isn’t since labor is under represented in this country and more and more is being abused. "
I'm not saying it's good or even right but it's just what I am seeing.The worst was when I saw ads 10 or so years ago wanting eight years experience with Windows XP..maybe it was a typo but it certainly didn't attract applicants.

"You left out other stuff like machinist, welder, and yes even IT, as well as nursing, mechanic, etc. There is no goddamn reason at all to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to go to college to learn these things."

Well with nursing there are nursing schools and degrees. You can't simply apply without something under your belt with that. Even with mechanics there's still things like ASE certification. I'm not saying college has to be THE standard but there has to be some form of a standard. If it's certification, if it's a program, if it's an apprenticeship etc.

"Teaching overseas isn’t worth it anymore unless you’ve got a cherry job already lined up with overseas buds. Hasn’t been worth it to teach overseas in most countries since the early 2000’s, the field got saturated with people fresh out of college who wanted to go overseas and see the world when word got out how “sweet” it was. You also tend to get paid shit even if you do pull it off now, which is fine inside most forgein countries since cost of living scales but when you get back to the US, which you will you will have almost no money."

Well of course the pay is lower but that's because the cost of living is lower. I've been to asia and europe. You don't get rich off of it but it is cheap living at least for awhile. Check out eslcafe.com it has a fair amount about it with some message boards too.As for having no money in getting back well it is like that on a domestic scale as well. Anyone that moved out of the northeast and bought housing over the past ten years probably can't afford to move back.

"Great anti labor attitude you’re sporting there. Expecting most everyone to go into debt just to have a chance at a job, any job much less a decent one, is regressive in the extreme."

No I didn't advocate going into debt. As I mentioned most schools can have payment plans without the need of loans. If the amount of loan debt for a bachelor degree is about heck let's round it up to 25K. 25K divided by 208 (52 weeks a year for 4 years) That's $120 a week. Is it hard to work and go to school at the same time? I'd say yes but it can be done. Any concerns about the tuition going up can simply put funds into a 529 plan. I'll admit textbooks can add up but ebooks can drop prices.

All I'm basically getting at is that higher education is the easiest item for a employer to quantify. I worked with a women who has about 30 years experience doing accounting. She was let go late last year and she cannot get a job as an accountant because she does not have a degree. Others were at companies that no longer exist making it harder to confirm with anyone about information about it.

Cook County resident says

And I know this is beyond the scope of your project, but what difference would it make if all adults in the US somehow earned a college degree? Would the GDP go up a little, or alot?

This is an interesting question. I don't think it would make a difference if all adults earned "a college degree", but it would make a difference if they earned "the right college degree." Certain college degrees do not impact GDP growth at all (for example, I had a friend who went to a good school, majored in anthropology and is now giving private music lessons). If more students were studying computer science, then I think GDP growth would go up.

PRIME says

This is an interesting question. I don’t think it would make a difference if all adults earned “a college degree”, but it would make a difference if they earned “the right college degree.” Certain college degrees do not impact GDP growth at all (for example, I had a friend who went to a good school, majored in anthropology and is now giving private music lessons). If more students were studying computer science, then I think GDP growth would go up.

I think you're right about that.

Even if there were a degree in Cashierology it wouldn't mean degreed cashiers would do more efficient and profitable work than the other cashiers who show up on time every day, work hard and know where all the buttons on the register are.

There's obviously a comparative advantage between degreed job applicants and non-degreed job applicants. A college degree is evidence that the applicant isn't part of the American underclass.

But most work that needs to be done doesn't require a college degree and the total advantage, in a proportional sense, is smaller than the comparative advantage. That is, until everybody gets their degree.

mdovell says

As I mentioned most schools can have payment plans without the need of loans. If the amount of loan debt for a bachelor degree is about heck let’s round it up to 25K. 25K divided by 208 (52 weeks a year for 4 years) That’s $120 a week. Is it hard to work and go to school at the same time? I’d say yes but it can be done. Any concerns about the tuition going up can simply put funds into a 529 plan. I’ll admit textbooks can add up but ebooks can drop prices.

All I’m basically getting at is that higher education is the easiest item for a employer to quantify. I worked with a women who has about 30 years experience doing accounting. She was let go late last year and she cannot get a job as an accountant because she does not have a degree. Others were at companies that no longer exist making it harder to confirm with anyone about information about it.

It doesn't matter whether it's "possible" to go to colllege by working or by taking out loans.

The fact is that college for the most part is useless. Period. They teach you nothing.

They only value from it is to impress dumb & incompetent middle management drones into hiring you.

Would you want a plastic surgeon to cut you that just got a medical degree along with the required specialization medical degree for plastic surgery?

No you would want someone that's been involved in this for a long time by DOING...

College doesn't teach you anything except that it gives a sense of entitlement to idiots that they are entitled to a job because they repeated what their Professors in college said.

The truth about college is coming out slowly - as more people go into college - spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with no job... And a huge debt that can't be discharged; they are slaves!

And by the way, ivy league schools are the worst; Grade inflation and brainwashing graduates into thinking they are so special than the rest of others.

"It doesn’t matter whether it’s “possible” to go to colllege by working or by taking out loans."
College? Is that like sschhooll?

"The fact is that college for the most part is useless. Period. They teach you nothing."

If it is useless then why would it be required for jobs then? Obviously if a job requires a degree in lieu of experience (granted on a given ratio that isn't 1:1) then there is value.

"Would you want a plastic surgeon to cut you that just got a medical degree along with the required specialization medical degree for plastic surgery?"

So you would want to see a doctor that never went to med school or a lawyer that never passed a bar exam? How about an electrician that didn't know the electrical code in your town/city?

"No you would want someone that’s been involved in this for a long time by DOING"

Experience is good I won't put it down but if someone has experience then that means they should be able to pass the tests and do classwork then. If they can't then what did they learn from their experience? This reminds me of a women I know that dropped out of high school and is looking to become a teacher by getting a job as a school bus driver? huh? She thinks if you spend enough time around kids that the administrators at the school with "give her a chance"! Now keep in mind there are no incentives for an employer to give another employer any information about a former employee. Sometimes there are even privacy laws against such action. At a former job we had an employee fired due to drug use. We are not allowed to tell other employers why that person was fired.

How can you quantify experience without a given metric? That is how can you prove the time on the job is with the time that is put into place. You have to have a given standard, a benchmark, a level to prove a value. I am not saying it must be a degree. It can be a industry certification, a competency test an exam etc. People with experience in a given field should be able to pass tests in their field.

"College doesn’t teach you anything except that it gives a sense of entitlement to idiots that they are entitled to a job because they repeated what their Professors in college said."

If it doesn't teach you anything then why do employers have it as a requirement? Do you honestly think that employers will teach skills that have a value to a competitor fully knowing that would make them more apt to leave to that competitor?

In Mass under the quinn bill police get a 10% boost in pay with an associates, bachelors and masters degree. Why? Because you get a more professional police force with less civil rights complaints. Public servants can get sued for quite a bit of money if they screw up with peoples rights. In the military you can (not saying you will) be able to enter as an officer if you complete a degree.

Why is the unemployment rate going back decades consistently lower by higher education?

"The truth about college is coming out slowly - as more people go into college - spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with no job… And a huge debt that can’t be discharged; they are slaves!"

Hundreds of thousands? The median debt for a four year degree at a public school is less than 25K..which is less than a new car but we don't tell people buying new cars that they shouldn't do it..and yet in 2009 over 10 million new cars were sold
www.autotrends.org/2010/05/20/is-17-million-annual-car-sales-possible

A wedding costs on average at least 20K. And yet we have no problem allowing more people to get married.
www.smartmoney.com/spend/family-money/theyll-never-know-eight-hidden-ways-to-cut-wedding-costs-13918

Certainly 25K is no small change but you certainly need to put it in perspective here. In addition let's not forget housing with so many with negative equity.

"And by the way, ivy league schools are the worst; Grade inflation and brainwashing graduates into thinking they are so special than the rest of others."

Well the argument of the thread is if it pays off and I would say it does.

@mdovell

It so obvious that you are just trying to win an argument just for the sake of winning.

Arguing emotionally on the internet is lame. If you want to be a tough guy - argue with someone face to face with the same rudeness.

And by the way - none of your comments are valid including the ones in they other thread.

You seem more interested in winning arguments than at discussing the issues behind those arguments. And it's very well evident by you trying to nitpick & then leaving wise-ass know-it-all comments.

mdovell says

Do you honestly think that employers will teach skills that have a value to a competitor fully knowing that would make them more apt to leave to that competitor?

If companies treated their employees well and paid them the going rate, they would be in no danger of losing trained employees to a competitor.

If it doesn’t teach you anything then why do employers have it as a requirement?

To go even further, the last company I worked at had narrowed down the college degrees to only 4 colleges. Coincidentally, it was the same 4 colleges that senior mgmt graduated from.

I'm all for discussing the issues. I believe that much of this lead to the development of standardized testing in high schools in the past 20 or so years. I understand the idea behind No Child Left Behind although I think the program of Race to the Top is going a bit too far.

"If companies treated their employees well and paid them the going rate, they would be in no danger of losing trained employees to a competitor."

Well pay is just one factor though. Working conditions can make up for lower pay sometimes. I used to work for a company that had a onsite gym, onsite day care, film development (this was a decade ago), dry cleaner and excellent cafeteria (they had division that does catering all over the country). It was a corporate HQ office but it felt more like a center of town when you walked inside. If you examine any organization that's new (private business and one can say religions too) is it eventually divides itself due to different means of objectives and purposes. The company I reference here did have former employees leave during the 80's and start up their own which actually rivals it today. Sadly most of the perks I mentioned were gradually phased out over the past ten years. Another factor can be a commute. I saw a open position recently that was very good in the pay but neither I nor my friends would apply because the commute would have be a few hours each way. The actual conditions at work are always a factor as well. A former employer of mine even with the market today always looks for people but I wouldn't go back. Swears are one thing but when death threats happened that was another.

MCM I am not attempting to be rude but when someone interjects conspiracy banter into an argument how is it to be discussed? When I cite data and it is ignored how is that a debate? If I use personal experiences that is dismissed as well so of course the conversation goes nowhere.

All I am doing is applying basic game theory...maybe a PEST or SWOT analysis.

I can understand there is anger with the way the job market is.
How about this for basic discussion..

Is it a standard or is it discrimination?

Drug Tests started in the 1980's. Now I cannot see anyone professional attempting to do drugs while at work but others would argue that if it is on their own time who's business is it? Some states have decriminalized marijuana so if it isn't an actual legal crime and is not occurring at work then what is the real purpose?

Background checks also occur to obtain employment. If an employee is fired new employers cannot ask why that employee was fired. That presents uncertainty and some could generalize that to simply not hire anyone that was ever fired.

Some states have made it illegal to perform credit checks on job applicants. If a job involves physically dealing with cash is that enough of a reason to have this as a requirement? If someone owes money (for whatever reason) are they more apt to skim off their employer?

Cboy I believe it. Reminds me a bit of Six Sigma

Like it or not, college is a necessity these days. I don't necessarily think you learn so much in college but it's a stepping stone and it's just about IMPOSSIBLE to land a good job without a college degree.

No one is saying you have to go to a prestigious school but a college degree is a necessity. Much depends what major you get. If you get a worthless degree like Art, History, Communications well then it is a waste of money for the most part.

But anyone that says that a college degree isn't a necessity is fooling themselves. A high school degree is nothing.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Depressing how many have been brain washed by the employers these days and hold views against their own and others well being.

mdovell says

I wouldn’t say it should be discharged but costs should at least flatten.

The root of the problem is that the debt was made undischargable in the first place. Banks stopped caring once that happened and will happily loan out tens of thousands to any fool 18 or 19 year old for college if they know they can't get out of paying for it which in turn starts to drive up the cost of college for everyone over time.

mdovell says

I just have to ask if someone has no experience or degree what employer takes the risk of hiring that person?

Used to be that employers accepted some risk by hiring someone totally green in a entry level position and promoted them up through the ranks. Or they used internships as training and a selection process. Internships still exist today but seem to be rarely used anymore for their original intent and employers no longer really give a shit about their employees so promoting through the ranks is uncommon or even unheard of now. This country and others ran for decades just like this perfectly fine and if anything was better then than it is now.

mdovell says

Nearly all? Try 2/3rds
http://www.finaid.org/loans/

From your own link:
"Among graduating 4-year undergraduate students who applied for federal student aid, 86.3% borrowed to pay for their education and the average cumulative debt was $24,651. (For just federal student loan debt, excluding PLUS Loans, the figures are 61.6% and $17,878.) Average cumulative debt increased by 5.6% or $1,139 a year since 2003-04. When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803."

It should be no shock to anyone with half a brain that people in general do not have the money saved up to pay for college today. The rising cost of living and the stagnant and/or falling wages would alone guarantee that in the future if it wasn't already true since the cost of college keeps rising faster than inflation year after year. Go ahead and keep on trying to downplay this, you'll look the fool to anyone who is shelling out for it or will have to.

mdovell says

Personally I’m not a fan of the private for profit schools and the data here indicates why.

That is great and all but who said vocational schools had to be private?

mdovell says

Myspace? sweet lord man that thing is dead. Employers do not always provide information. I used to skiptrace for a living so I know. There’s so many fake profiles on those sites that it can be hard to determine what is real. You do know that people can block Spokeo listenings…right ?

So you did this for a living? Then you know there is more out there than Spokeo right and that I was just tossing out a simple, cheap, and fast example that works most of the time? Don't give me some line of nonesense that doing a back round search on someone is hard or terribly expensive these days, you know its easier now then it was back in the pre PC days. If you got to hire a PI sure it gets real pricey but you can easily get tons of info. on someone without doing that.

mdovell says

I’m not saying it’s good or even right but it’s just what I am seeing.The worst was when I saw ads 10 or so years ago wanting eight years experience with Windows XP..maybe it was a typo but it certainly didn’t attract applicants.

OK I've seen stuff like that too but so what? Why should potential employees cater to and treat as serious obviously BS demands like that? If you saw a job ad that wanted 50 years experience programming for $10/hr would you also treat it seriously?

mdovell says

Well with nursing there are nursing schools and degrees.

You can get a degree or certification if you like from any vocational school too. Hell if you like I can print out a piece of paper with the word "certification" or "degree" on it and mail it to you.

mdovell says

You can’t simply apply without something under your belt with that.

Sure you can. I did work in a hospital via a CROP class in highschool over 10 years ago. It was 6 months long then you work another 6 months in the hospital, which was liscenced as a training facility, as a PCT then you could take the test and be a nurse. That was over 10 years ago and things have changed since then but not a whole lot. You can see the program here:

http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/cms/page_view?d=x&piid=&vpid=1232371008612

and here is more:

http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/cms/page_view?d=x&piid=&vpid=1231766503145

This is not the only program like this nor is it a bad one, its just the one I'm familiar with or at least was 10 years ago. It was and still is far and away one of the best ones out there IMO since it can get a high school kid a good paying job with benefits with nearly no cost at all within a year or a year and a half. It covers lots lots more than nursing too BTW.

mdovell says

Even with mechanics there’s still things like ASE certification. I’m not saying college has to be THE standard but there has to be some form of a standard. If it’s certification, if it’s a program, if it’s an apprenticeship etc.

Why in the world do you think a degree or cert has to come from a college? What makes a degree or cert from a college so special or is better than one from a vocational school?

mdovell says

Well of course the pay is lower but that’s because the cost of living is lower. I’ve been to asia and europe. You don’t get rich off of it but it is cheap living at least for awhile. ...Anyone that moved out of the northeast and bought housing over the past ten years probably can’t afford to move back.

Yea you basically just agreed with what I said and made the case for why shit paying jobs during or out of college are so bad as well.

mdovell says

No I didn’t advocate going into debt.

Yes you do even if you don't mean too. You know how much college costs and its not hard at all to find out avg. wages and wealth distribution even if you want to ignore or handwave away the numbers of the people in debt. You go to college these days as a non rich person you're coming out in debt per your own links.

mdovell says

As I mentioned most schools can have payment plans without the need of loans.

Payment plans does not automagically equal affordable, particularly if you're stuck in a Starbucks-esque job after or during college. Particularly if the payment plan allows them to inflate the cost of the total college tuition. We need affordable colleges, not payment plans or more undischargable debt, or any other gimmicks. Just make it cheaper, its not rocket science.

mdovell says

Is it hard to work and go to school at the same time? I’d say yes but it can be done.

Why should we expect anyone to work and go to college at the same time? Just because it could be done doesn't mean it should done much less that it is right to do so. Elsewhere in the world college and schooling costs, even vocational schooling costs, are kept low and affordable or even totally paid for by the state. Why should it be any different here?

mdovell says

All I’m basically getting at is that higher education is the easiest item for a employer to quantify. I worked with a women who has about 30 years experience doing accounting. She was let go late last year and she cannot get a job as an accountant because she does not have a degree. Others were at companies that no longer exist making it harder to confirm with anyone about information about it.

This is because employers are acting like assholes and have retarded hiring policies. 30 years experience in a field trumps a college kid or even a guy with a degree and a few years experience any day. Instead of saying that though you blame those being abused. You're effectively brainwashed by your employers and/or mildly sociopathic so it was probably a waste of time to type this all out per se since you probably won't change your midn but maybe others can read this and learn a little something.

mdovell says

MCM I am not attempting to be rude but when someone interjects conspiracy banter into an argument how is it to be discussed? When I cite data and it is ignored how is that a debate? If I use personal experiences that is dismissed as well so of course the conversation goes nowhere.

Okay - I'll give my take on the debate if you insist.

mdovell says

If it is useless then why would it be required for jobs then? Obviously if a job requires a degree in lieu of experience (granted on a given ratio that isn’t 1:1) then there is value.

Because everyone has a wrong idea of what a college degree really means. Understand that I don't think all college degrees are worthless.

Employers are impressed & think somehow a person with a degree is more skillful than someone who is self-taught, has experience & has done their application.

Self-education is the best education because it comes from inner motivation & not because you are feared into studying something because of authority & tyrants.

People don't read textbooks because they want too - it's because they are pressured by others into studying it or otherwise something "terrible" will happen to them. It's a form of following the orders and desires of others instead of using your own brain.

Education is something a person must do themselves. Of course - teachers and mentors are sometimes necessary but the motivation must come from within. Otherwise the motivation is not really motivation - it's weakness by following other people's own wishes of what you are cleverly disguised as motivation.

mdovell says

So you would want to see a doctor that never went to med school or a lawyer that never passed a bar exam?

I never said a doctor shouldn't go to medical school or a lawyer shouldn't take the bar exam.

But to answer your question - Medical school is flawed to begin with anyway. It's curriculum is heavily controlled by the pharmaceutical companies which are largely dependent on the petroleum industry. (pharmaceuticals are mostly if not completely synthesized from petroleum by-products these days )

Who largely controls the petroleum industry? The Rockefellers and yes they still control that industry despite the fact that they try to show that they don't.

The American Medical Association main goal is to limit they amount of doctors regardless of whether they are competent in order to artificially drive up the prices of medical care.

Mcat exams and applications are mainly looking for people who are going to only further establish and promote the pharmaceutical companies. If you give them the impression that you want to be a doctor because you want help people, cure diseases and care for sick people - they will take your application and throw it right into the trash.

More information: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LADA-zZhTGc&feature=channel_video_title

Western doctors and medicine is killing people. Study some work by Deepak Chopra, MD - he has seen first hand the flaws of western medicine.

The Federal Drug administration's main goal is to suppress cures and only approve drugs that treat the symptoms of a condition - not the condition itself. Many drugs that are approved have very little testing and many dangerous drugs are continually being approved. (Read some books with credible sources exposing the FDA truth.)

Understand that I am not against pharmaceuticals - some of them will actually cure you and fix up a health condition permanently - but those medications are hardly ever approved for use and/or production by the FDA. And those medications idiot "doctors" hardly ever prescribe. Most "doctors" are idiots to begin with - they prescribe dangerous medications which will not cure the problem - only the symptoms while at the same-time creating another health condition in the body. And lot of the times either give an insufficient dose or too much dose.

In other words, whether someone has a medical degree is useless in determining how competent & fit they are to be a doctor. Physician assistants have 90% of the knowledge medical degree holders.

In fact, many doctors just sign off the diagnosis of a physician assistant - while not making the diagnosis themselves or listening to the patients condition or analyzing the condition.

Many patients also complain about how doctors never listen, arrogant, and have a know-it-all attitude. Doctors spend very little listening and trying to analyze the patients condition. Most of them are money hungry clowns trying to quickly get to as many patients as possible while spend as little time as possible with them.

Doctors also often have a conflict of interest due to monetary incentives they are given by pharmaceutical companies and medical lab companies. (Expensive dinners, vacations and pressurization by the companies to push their services & products on to patients with a commission incentive.)

I had a doctor once prescribe me a wrong drug for stomach problems which would actually make the problems worse. He only prescribed it because he wanted to make money and that medication was going to make the stomach problems worse. Scumbag.

So to really answer your question - there are plenty of people who don't hold medical degrees but are many times more competent than those overpaid retarded greedy yuppies.

About Attorneys; Did I ever say in this thread to not pass your state required license exams - whether it's for practicing a law or driving a car? And passing bar examinations doesn't mean they are a good attorney but I will agree with you that it does offer a guarantee that the attorney practicing won't be someone who has a very low-level of ability. And by the way - college in some states is not needed to become an attorney. You can apprentice under a attorney and take the bar exam from his approval. Many people frown at this way to become attorney - when actually this is how attorneys were all trained in the old days and they were trained damn good.

I think you need to understand that I am emphasizing the validness of college curriculum in many degrees and the way society defines "education" and what constitutes one in reality. I am not arguing that not getting a medical degree will make it possible for you to become practicing doctor without running into trouble with the law.

mdovell says

Experience is good I won’t put it down but if someone has experience then that means they should be able to pass the tests and do classwork then. If they can’t then what did they learn from their experience?

Your argument contains an oxymoron. Experience teaches you completely different curriculum than contemplating. Not that contemplating isn't valuable but often contemplating teaches you misinformation or information that has no application or use. Do you understand now, why your question is the wrong thing to ask?

mdovell says

How can you quantify experience without a given metric? That is how can you prove the time on the job is with the time that is put into place. You have to have a given standard, a benchmark, a level to prove a value.

how can you quantify application that a degree teaches you? If you really want an answer instead of a question, here it is; You can't tell how competent, valuable and skillful someone is until they start working and you judge their results.

That is how you can prove yourself on the job. And you are right - there should be a given standard and having the person go through a testing period as work they are hired for will determine whether they meet that standard.

"It doesn't matter to me if a man is from Harvard or Sing Sing. We hire the man, not his history."
-Henry Ford, Automobile Tycoon.

mdovell says

I am not saying it must be a degree. It can be a industry certification, a competency test an exam etc.

The government should only require a standard test for lines of work where it would be dangerous or disastrous without the person understanding a certain type of knowledge and certain information about it.

Barbers for example shouldn't be cutting hair unless they are taught up to a acceptable standard.

Otherwise - let the market of employment be a free market without oppressing others who may just as much deserve the same job if not in some cases more than the person with a piece of paper making claims about this person being superior.

And if training is needed - companies should be providing it through apprenticeships since they know more about their business and it's required knowledge to run it rather than some money hungry private organization which has never stepped foot in the business- which many jobs had done in the past.

It's a disservice to both the companies and employees.

mdovell says

If it doesn’t teach you anything then why do employers have it as a requirement?

A docile sheep is a better slave. Mike Tyson type aggressive employees are too ambitious, smart and have more leadership capability; we don't want those. We want non-thinking robots.

That's what public education and college is all about. It was never about "education" in the sense people believe and this is also why the majority of the population are uneducated because they don't understand the meaning of "education".

mdovell says

Do you honestly think that employers will teach skills that have a value to a competitor fully knowing that would make them more apt to leave to that competitor?

This question automatically without a doubt shows me that you know nothing about big business.

Why are CEOs of banks given such huge bonuses even they did such a terrible job? Why are CEOs of banks who are fired still given such a huge bonus? (So the CEO doesn't share trade secrets.)

Besides CEOs, any company which has it's middle management & low-level employees leaving to it's competitors - doesn't deserve to be a company. It deserves to be bankrupt. Competition is a sin.

mdovell says

In Mass under the quinn bill police get a 10% boost in pay with an associates, bachelors and masters degree. Why? Because you get a more professional police force with less civil rights complaints. Public servants can get sued for quite a bit of money if they screw up with peoples rights.

Just because someone gets a higher pay doesn't mean they deserve that pay and it doesn't always mean that giving them a higher pay is the wise thing to do. The US is going into a police state. The government doesn't care about your rights and the constitution has been disregarded in countless examples.

Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWeF6lwg4aY

Example: IRS income tax - it is unconstitutional and no law exists for you to pay this tax.

mdovell says

The median debt for a four year degree at a public school is less than 25K

According to fabricated data.
mdovell says

“And by the way, ivy league schools are the worst; Grade inflation and brainwashing graduates into thinking they are so special than the rest of others.”

Well the argument of the thread is if it pays off and I would say it does.

And this is the exact problem with majority of employees. It's from this mentality that we have entitled idiots who don't deserve a higher pay but get it. This is why we have businesses who are robbed by labor unions with their never ending benefits and retirement plans.

That's why so many local counties across the country are spending so much money & bleeding red ink on the books. School unions are also the reason for such high property taxes.

Learn to earn your salary not get it.

mdovell says

I am not attempting to be rude but when someone interjects conspiracy banter into an argument how is it to be discussed?

http://rockefeller.senate.gov/ Politics controlled by rockefellers

http://ihouse.berkeley.edu/a/gala2006/index.html "Education" controlled with an agenda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClqUcScwnn8 David Rockefeller Wants to Murder People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URH9NuO4KTc David Rockefeller Confronted in Interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9xzXUQLuY Jay Rockefeller Wants to Shut Down Internet

Go read the book "The Creature on jekyll island" - plenty of information which you can easily verify.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcvo5QL-SNw Rothschilds Promoting Feminism (They are great partners with Rockefellers)

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions.

Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty and I am proud of it."
- David Rockefeller, from his autobiography “Memoirs”

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
-Thomas Jefferson

I gave you some very interesting links to get you to open your mind. Go do some research on your own. Don't expect me to think for you or hand me information to you - I'm not a college Professor who will baby you. Look into the executive order that John F. Kennedy gave before being assassinated; It was about ending the Federal Reserve and restoring the issuance of currency to the people. Look into Abraham Lincoln. And look into Andrew Jackson as he ended a central bank while having several assassination attempts.

And please learn the definition of conspiracy before trying to use it as an insult, because your insult makes no sense or point. But I think it's interesting that the people who don't use their brains - try to insult people who try to warn them and get them to wake up - as "conspiracy" informers...

The insult makes no sense but I think it truly shows how the sheep are passionate about not questioning their tyrants in charge. The international elite laugh at people like you because they consider the majority of americans to be complete idiots. And sometimes I really don't doubt their attitude.

The problem with me debating with someone like you is that we are not on the same intellectual capacity but more importantly the difference is too great. This results the debate into stupidity being the discussion and topics pertaining to idiocy.

But anyway - I gave you my take since you asked.

-Bye

tts says

You’re effectively brainwashed by your employers and/or mildly sociopathic so it was probably a waste of time to type this all out per se since you probably won’t change your midn but maybe others can read this and learn a little something.

Amen. I was thinking to also inform mdovell that he is most likely a brainwashed corporate robot & a sheep.

I also think sheep are generally stubborn in seeing other points of views and it's not worth even trying to help sheep because they attack you. That's why I backed out on even bothering to discuss the debate any further - I have found some people to be permanently a sheep.

bubblesburst says

A high school degree is nothing.

Majority of college degree holders have no intrinsic value either. They only know how to get but don't know how to earn.

"Because everyone has a wrong idea of what a college degree really means. Understand that I don’t think all college degrees are worthless."
Well that's the impression I get from the discussion.

"Self-education is the best education because it comes from inner motivation & not because you are feared into studying something because of authority & tyrants."

But no one forces people to go into college. There's a huge difference between going to high school and going to college. Students don't have to pay for high school since it is largely public..you have a fair amount that don't want to be there. When people pay money for something they take it much more seriously.

"People don’t read textbooks because they want too - it’s because they are pressured by others into studying it or otherwise something “terrible” will happen to them. It’s a form of following the orders and desires of others instead of using your own brain."

Have you actually attended a college before? Personally I have read textbooks for the heck of it. Professors do not automatically tell students to read all of a given textbook. More importantly not everything assigned *IS* a textbook. Basic political philosophy on the left and right is not written as a textbook. Literature is not written as a text book etc.

"Education is something a person must do themselves. Of course - teachers and mentors are sometimes necessary but the motivation must come from within. Otherwise the motivation is not really motivation - it’s weakness by following other people’s own wishes of what you are cleverly disguised as motivation."

OK but anyone that has to have a job must always obey as there's not creative structure. Remember Bill Hicks? "Hey Hicks why aren't you working?" "Because there's no work to do" "Well pretend your working!" "How about you pretend I'm working, creativity was not in the job description!"

"But to answer your question - Medical school is flawed to begin with anyway. It’s curriculum is heavily controlled by the pharmaceutical companies which are largely dependent on the petroleum industry. (pharmaceuticals are mostly if not completely synthesized from petroleum by-products these days )"

In the end, the drug industry is all about organic chemistry. Petroleum is a rich source of organics, and I suspect we'd synthesize everything from crude oil if it were viable. In fact many drug precursors probably come indirectly from petroleum, now that I think about it. A link to said harangue would be helpful. My whacko-sense tells me that this may be partly about linking two hated industry to create the shock value of "no blood for Prozac".

"Who largely controls the petroleum industry? The Rockefellers and yes they still control that industry despite the fact that they try to show that they don’t."

Based on what? Where is Rockefeller here?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/mh?s=PFE+Major+Holders
There's the organizations and large individual shareholders of Pfizer...

"The American Medical Association main goal is to limit they amount of doctors regardless of whether they are competent in order to artificially drive up the prices of medical care."

Ok but how is that relevant? I agree but on that same note plumbers unions lobby the state of mass all the time to limit the laws to allow people to do their own plumbing work. In Mass you cannot do work in walls ceilings and floors, only if it is exposed outside of it. So you tell me that groups think within their own self interest..that's just a basic.

"Mcat exams and applications are mainly looking for people who are going to only further establish and promote the pharmaceutical companies. If you give them the impression that you want to be a doctor because you want help people, cure diseases and care for sick people - they will take your application and throw it right into the trash."

Again it is obvious that the money is in the medicine.

"The Federal Drug administration’s main goal is to suppress cures and only approve drugs that treat the symptoms of a condition - not the condition itself. Many drugs that are approved have very little testing and many dangerous drugs are continually being approved."

You just contradicted yourself though. So if the FDA then is in a paradox. If they test a drug that holds promise what should they do? Release it hopeing it will save lives or wait for a longer trial and watch people suffer more without knowing the side effects? Fenfen did work in helping people lose weight...but it caused heart attacks later on.

"Doctors also often have a conflict of interest due to monetary incentives they are given by pharmaceutical companies and medical lab companies. (Expensive dinners, vacations and pressurization by the companies to push their services & products on to patients with a commission incentive.)"

How is that different from any other industry?

"And by the way - college in some states is not needed to become an attorney. You can apprentice under a attorney and take the bar exam from his approval. Many people frown at this way to become attorney - when actually this is how attorneys were all trained in the old days and they were trained damn good."
Although that is true how many clients will take on someone obtaining it that way?

"Your argument contains an oxymoron. Experience teaches you completely different curriculum than contemplating. Not that contemplating isn’t valuable but often contemplating teaches you misinformation or information that has no application or use. Do you understand now, why your question is the wrong thing to ask?"

So someone with experience cannot create their own inventions or creations? Contemplating does not teach misinformation. Competition often drives businesses to improve their product. We don't still drive Model T's and use rotary dial telephones.

"how can you quantify application that a degree teaches you? If you really want an answer instead of a question, here it is; You can’t tell how competent, valuable and skillful someone is until they start working and you judge their results."

But that's the rub. You are implying that every employer would give a potential employee a chance. While that was true decades ago it is harder now since it is an employers market. When unemployment is low (remember around...summer of 2000?) companies will hire headhunters and offers will be there. Now it's the opposite. An employer knows there's ample amounts of people applying so they want to maximize who they can get.

"And if training is needed - companies should be providing it through apprenticeships since they know more about their business and it’s required knowledge to run it rather than some money hungry private organization which has never stepped foot in the business- which many jobs had done in the past."

Technically I can agree with that...BUT employers do NOT want to each people beyond the basics days. Training costs time, money and energy. If a employer is looking for a chemist they aren't going to teach basic chemistry to someone from the ground up.

I read the creature book years ago..still have it but Griffen just writes to make money there's not much substance that is accounted for. I've seen the videos..heck I have that grandaddy of a book Tragedy and Hope that eventually I'll crack open.

I've googled you a bit..I'll admit some of it is interesting. I didn't know you wrote a book.

"We need affordable colleges, not payment plans or more undischargable debt, or any other gimmicks. Just make it cheaper, its not rocket science."

I don't think you understand. It WAS cheap until we were convinced that we should subsidize it with student loans. Let me use a better case here. In Boston's Fenway Park almost all the Red Sox games sell out (they won two world series in the past 10 years). Now from their perspective is there any real need to lower ticket prices? Heck no because the demand is guaranteed. But what they'll do is they'll add to the number of seats over and over again. Student loans guarantee demand..but the supply is limited.

If we eliminated the student loan program less students would be able to go to school but prices would start flattening or start going down since they'd have to compete with one another rather than take a pseudo blank check. The other problem with the student loan system is even if it did work and prices were put in check having higher percentages with degrees would lower the value of them.

^ I respectfully disagree...

The American collegiate system is broken because it's a super retail business PERIOD!

Pupils are Pigeons to be plucked, more than minds to be fed, and don't you forget it.

Nomograph says

The lesson here is that the Internet gives people a louder voice than they might arguably deserve. Be very careful who you listen to and take advice from; you just might turn out like them.

Oh you mean like Berkeley!? I respectfully agree.

mdovell says

I don’t think you understand. It WAS cheap until we were convinced that we should subsidize it with student loans.

That is a part of it but its not the only part. Payment gimmicks and undiscarhable debt will also allow them to jack prices up.

Subsidies in of themselves do not automatically guarantee that prices will go up.

@Nomograph

What I find more attention worthy  is how vested you are to dodge they issue at hand and  pounce on  insignificant  things unrelated.

It indicates that you can't think of anything to debate so you resort to cheap attacks personally.

But to be clear; Yes, I have a wide amount of knowledge & interest in many many different subjects which many sheeple would consider to be taboo.

If anyone is also jealous its usually the sheep. They always get into a negative state of mind whenever they find out someone is extremely wealthy - begin to think how "lucky" that person is... And how impossible it is with what they achieved. They are easy to follow orders but also easy to become jealous of others who are leaders.

 College will not make you rich... Attorneys & doctors - the majority of them are just pathetic yuppies with huge debts, hardly any savings & excessive spending in proportion to their salary. It's one thing to enjoy a rich life but it's completely different to actually be rich. The doctors & attorneys that are wealthy are  not because of medical school or law school - it has to do with personal traits & the way they think which makes them successful in that career. It's easy to be something but completely different to have success at it.

But I've encountered sheep like you countless times.

I bet I can sum you up: You always follow financial advice from other sheep. You believe credit cards will make rich because it will build your credit score. You believe low interest rates are good. You will or have defiantly bought  a house with a mortgage. You expect a 401(k) will take care of your savings. You are expecting to depend on social security. You believe the FDIC will protect your money from bank runs. You believe a job is they only way to make a living & don't ever imagine being fired - you will always make that salary consistently. You are incredibly negative whenever someone close to you is going to start a business. You believe someone should never start a business. 

What I also found more pathetic is how the sheep look down on others who don't go through any formal schooling - when they very individuals who have made this system stronger grew up as poor boys who had very little school, none at all or didn't attend college... But made a huge mark in business & became robber baron tycoons.

John D. Rockefeller had some very good traits common among successful individuals. As much as you may think that I believe the elite had some special advantages which enabled them to accumulate their vast fortunes - you are wrong... I simply judge them by their actions not by whether the are wealthy & should be vilified.

Rockefellers had started their fortunes from scratch.

Rothchilds started their fortunes from scratch.

The men behind these fortunes were once poor boys who the majority of sheep at the time considered to be uneducated peasants with no hope of ever being anything in their life.

I actually used to support the plans of the elite to murder 95% of the sheeple, reduce world population, implement RFID chips, send middle class jobs overseas, go to war with iran, debase all currencies slowly & eventually, further establish the pharmaceutical companies control over the medical industry, control all food sources & criminalize growing your own food, control all energy sources, introduce international electronic currency and implement a carbon tax (make the sheeple pay for air).

I used to love these plans & couldn't wait for them to be implemented because I used to have the same philosophy as them which is: the sheep need to be put in their place & slaughtered because they are pitiable inferior idiots who deserve to it. The sheep are the real scumbags because they let tyrants rule their lives & encourage others into following tyrants. International elites laugh at Americans but even more interesting is the sheeple overseas also scorn these degenerate slaves.

I also believed in enslaving people. Screw these serfs...

But I have decided to go against the elite on the basis that although it's true that the sheep are idiots - if they want to be that way then they have a right too... But more importantly I have decided to give humanity a second chance.

I bet you also believe masturbation is healthy and probably do it a lot  .... Go learn about sex transmutation... You need to also learn about what brainwaves are before giving your uneducated opinion. (research brainwave entrainment & brainwave synchronization - gamma, beta, alpha, theta & delta brainwaves) Psychic abilities are real but disputed by non-thinking sheep - I don't care if you think otherwise so don't expect me to make any effort to enlighten you. 

And I don't need success advise - I have learned a lot about what it takes to be a success - stuff the sheep don't know anything about...

Nomograph says

MCMSinger says

Go learn about sex transmutation... You need to also learn about what brainwaves are before giving your uneducated opinion. (research brainwave entrainment & brainwave synchronization - gamma, beta, alpha, theta & delta brainwaves) Psychic abilities are real but disputed by non-thinking sheep

So basically, your message is this:
Education = Bad
Sex transmutation, djiniis, magic, brainwave entrainment = Good
Let me know how that works out for you.

Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery -- Jane Austen

No - my message is basically that what you consider to be "education" is not...

And you don't need me to let you know how this perspective on life is going to turn out. Go look around you with how many jobless/no income graduates they are...

And then go study successful people & see what qualities they possess which makes them into a success. One of the keys is directing your energy.

The entrepreneur that started the Arizona beverage company once came into the college that I attended & clearly expressed his disgust with people who hold degrees. And no - this man was not jealous from them rather he said that he usually has a problem wih them because these people always think they know everything but when it comes to walking their talk - they can't...

This man founded a huge company & is quite wealthy - I think his experience showed him that the majority of people think they know something when they don't... And once some dumbfuck idiot gets a piece of paper called a degree, they usually try to flaunt how smart they are - when actually they are so stupid that they don't even know they are stupid... That's just how stupid they are & I think you fit that description quite well...

True... People who generally don't attend the brainwashing indocronation camps don't usually make more money than those who do... But what idiots fail to look at is why these idiots are making more money; answer: because companies want docile employees that only do on command without ever questioning.

Basically robots - let me ask - does your computer ever question you when press the command button to turn it on? No as long as it's working properly.

And you also have to look at the reason why people who don't attend college generally make less... 2 reasons 1) Because of bogus myths about graduates being more intelligent 2) Because the majority of people have no movement or goals

Majority of people with or without college are idiots to begin with. I don't neccessarily favor nograduates over graduates... But I do put idiots in there place when I see one.

I'm sorry that you will most likely be penniless at the end of your life regardless of how sweet your kindergarden teacher thought you were; that's how most sheeple end up.

And those subjects which I've encouraged you sheeple to ponder - gives you some of the qualitlies of successful people.

I hope your puny brain can now understand what I was really saying instead of putting you own idiot meanings into them.

And by the way - trying to discredit me by bringing up irrelevant taboo subjects about my beliefs on top of the subject being debated is a cheap shot but also pretty much sums up that you can't debate the subject so you need to resort to debating other things with the person. Quite pathetic actually... But hey I'm just putting similar sheep like you in their place - where they belong.

-Have a Nice Day

Ps. Google Napoleon Hill & read all his books.

"It indicates that you can't think of anything to debate so you resort to cheap attacks personally"

Within the discourse of a debate it can easily get off topic. It is not a ad ad hominem attack when this is brought up after you bring up conspiracy theories.

The problem with conspiracy theories that they make way too many assumptions. For example some believe the moon landing was faked. This is easy debunked because hundreds of thousands of people worked on the Apollo program and how can it be assured that they would all keep secrets?

Alex Jones I will admit is a good speaker. But at the same point he is a radio personality and if he didn't have such material to talk about he'd be out of work! Same with pretty much everyone that publishes a book about such things.

There is no plan to kill 95% of the population. As there's no methods to really do that unless you nuke the whole planet. If we are to believe such arguments then what is the recourse? How many groups are mentioned if you google this material? In no order of importance: Council on Foreign Relations, Ford Foundation, Trilaterial Commission, Rockefellers, Rothchilds (red shield?), Bilderbergers, Club of Rome, Green Cross, British Round Table/Fabian Socialists..some might put in Freemasons, Jesuits, Rosicrucian...and some suggest regional trading blocks are a precursor for global government (EU, NAFTA etc), others might reference aliens, bigfoot, hollow earth...the list can go on and on.

The problem in believing in such arguments is the objectives and motive are never really stated. Alex Jones for what it is worth is a non stop infomercial. If you make something up and it does not happen what do you do? You ignore what you said and make something else up.

The most obvious flaw with Alex Jones and others like him is this. If what they were saying was REALLY true then why doesn't that massive conspiracy just take him out? ...because it frankly doesn't exist!

If you want to dismiss higher ed that's fine man. There are jobs that do not require a degree..however any possible respect for you pretty much died when I found this.

www.puahate.com/showthread.php?p=1138228
"Hard work is for SUCKERS"
!

"I have learned a lot about what it takes to be a success"
By coping other peoples materials and selling it as your own. I wouldn't call that learning that's just acting like a xerox machine.

As for Arizona ice tea it appears they did do well...until the one of the founders tried to sue the other one
www.nybusinessdivorce.com/2010/10/articles/grounds-for-dissolution/50-owner-of-arizona-iced-tea-claiming-shareholder-oppression-files-for-involuntary-dissolution-of-multibillion-dollar-enterprise/

This groups sounds way too big to remain a private business.

I have to feel sorry for Ferolito. He starts a business with a friend that is worth hundreds of millions and decades later can't sell his half off. Then again Apple, Atari and Microsoft had two founders with usually one taking the limelight. If he's worth the money in private stock and cannot sell it then it should be argued to be entrapment.Even if there is a maturity date it has been a few decades now. If you really want to see an odd set look up the Menard family in the midwest.

http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/3dseries/2010/2010_08441.htm
As you can see from this link above it even went to the state supreme court but Ferolito lost.

I'd highly recommend you read this book as it examines the mindset of various groups of people and largely debunks them
www.amazon.com/Them-Adventures-Extremists-Jon-Ronson/dp/0743233212

Or watch the south park episode. It uses a bit of the same logic I have tried to suggest against your theories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_of_the_Urinal_Deuce

"I'm sorry that you will most likely be penniless at the end of your life "
If someone is single and has no children wouldn't that be the optimal way to go out? you can't take it with you...

If you make decent money selling PUA books that's great man more power to you. Heck maybe this will help you sell ebooks
www.amazon.com/How-Sold-Million-eBooks-Months/dp/1935670913/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_9

Now can we get back to talking about houses :-D

@mdovell

Did I ever mention Alex jones? Only you did but I am going to give you my honest take on him: I don't believe he offers any valuable information. Just babble & I agree with your comments about some of the crazy claims some people put out.

I don't believe everything I hear or read but that doesn't mean I won't give something it's credit if presented with almost indisputable evidence. The Federal Reserve is an extremely shady operation & the evidence is almost in plain sight.

About the puahate.com - thread which you brought up - Yes that is me trolling that forum trying to see the reactions of people from that thread. I never wrote a plagizered book & I'm telling the truth - I was messing around on that forum. And how can you have respect for someone you don't even know?

Debate the subject of the debate - trying to change the subject to win on another subject shows clearly that you have nothing to debate back.

I don't disagree entirely with everything you say... Learn to see why other people think about something from a certain perspective instead of trying to just win on your ego.

-Later Mate

There isn't any globalist conspiracy.

What happened is that the wealthy reached Class Consciousness before the Proletariat, and have no shame or illusions about consistently pushing their class interests. They also own this microphone, and will be sure it carries mostly their messaging most of the time.

AJ does believe in the illuminati, but he's woken more people up to the Plutocracy than most others. He certainly reaches a crowd that wouldn't be reached by Reich, Brad DeLong, or Chomsky.

He brings attention to hyperaggressive law enforcement, security theatre, socialism for the rich (and has said that at least socialism should be for the poor), etc.

AJ is often over the top. But he's not the complete nutcase he is alleged to be, either. What other radio program in the country will have Stiglitz, Noami Klein and Ray McGovern followed by Jerome Corsci, Ron Paul, and assorted John Birchers? And finds himself agreeing with at least part of what they say?

That alone makes it unique.

Good luck finding similar segments on Fox, CNN, CNBC, PBS, etc.

mdovell says

Both of these involved having to drive to Canada to resolve the problems. But I digress."

Sounds like incompetence on the part of the mechanics. If you look at the forum someone suggested that Goldstein post on, you can see that someone found a shop in Seattle that could fix this because the dealerships were too timid or unable to do it:

http://clubsmartcar.com/index.php?showtopic=22779&hl=keys

Moreover, Goldstein is driving a car that was never intended to be driven in the U.S. and is complaining about it. I don't have a lot of sympathy. When you import a vehicle, you take the risks of the importation.

mdovell says

I had a small evap leak..which is fine but even in knowing that the error message is not specific enough to indicate WHERE the leak is. I have no problem with electronics as long as it gets specific..like in the near future I think they have a mandate that cars will indicate when there is low tire pressure.

How do you think mechanics found leaks before OBD-II? You do it the same way. By the way, EVAP is more about emissions control than anything else -- those check engine lights you are complaining about don't always result in lower performance for your vehicle, but rather lower emissions. It can be hard to diagnose, but I believe having your gas cap off can throw an EVAP code.

That tire pressure monitoring system regulation has been in effect for a while -- all 2008 model year cars and later require it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire-pressure_monitoring_system). That means since at least 2nd half of 2007, or almost 4 years.