patrick.net

PRIME says

The title implies college is a good investment for cashiers. What?! If I drop $200K to go to college and then work at 7-11, college is a good investment?

That's not exactly what the article said. It said that you can go to public college for $2000/year, when you consider federal aid, and gave a cite. No one suggested going to Schools for the Dumb Rich if you're a cashier.

PRIME says

Maybe the high income plumbers are just better at following society’s orders and would make just as much without college. Classic example of confusing correlation with causation.

Yes, I agree with this. Maybe the plumbers who go to college are smarter, more intellectually curious, better at creative problem-solving, better at business, better at retaining customers, etc.

PRIME says

Part of the reason college graduates make more is because employers favor college graduates. For example, my uncle took a really hard test to become a fire department chief recently. After he passed the hard test, he needed to go back to college to finish his degree to get the title (city rules), even though he was already qualified in my book. So, when he got his raise he is in the college degree bucket, even though the raise had nothing to do with the degree.

Yes, however, this point doesn't actually contradict the article. If ANYTHING causes college graduates to make more money, the article is correct.

The article is bullshit.

College is good and all, but only if you can land a job that will justify its expense, and its expense is high. Working as a cahsier does not justify going to college. Nor does being a plumber. It is flat out stupid to spend $10K or more for a college degree and then go and do a job like that.

Becoming say a mechanical engineer, OK NOW you're talking. The problem is those jobs aren't exactly growing on trees and the free internships that you'd typically use to get your foot in the door are scarce now days. This means that these days its normal for people to leave college with a degree and 10's of thousands in debt and not find a decent level entry job that they studied for.

They are stuck with huge amounts of debt that is usually undischargeable, because its a government loan, and the jobs they can get leave them with almost nothing to live on. Hence all the late 20 somethings and now 30 somethings who are still living at home now. Used to be that was rare, 10 years ago you'd be a loser if you did that, now its the "new norm". Meanwhile everything they learned in college either slips away or becomes even more outdated and useless. After a couple of years of not working the field you went to college for you end up being shunned by employers for being a "loser".

There are some who still say that you should go to college no matter what, that its for learning and it'll help you grow as a person and bla bla bla. These people are full of shit and living in the past. 30 years, maybe 20 years ago this was true. College is too damn expensive to go just for this reason and now there are other far cheaper and convienent sources of info. available. These days though with the internet people are far more aware of what is happening around them in the country and world and exposed to far more things outside their normal cultural comfort levels than they had been back then.

Personally I think we need to get college costs waaay the heck down and bring back vocational schools for those who just don't want to go which is perfectly valid IMO since there is no reason you should HAVE to go to college and for some people its just not the best learning environment. Giving people undischargable loans is a horrible idea that just drives the cost of college up over time too, that has to stop.

I can now connect this to housing. From the Atlantic, the ROI on college is far better than stocks and bonds, and any of those is better than housing:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/What-Best-Investment-Stocks-atlantic-4214432520.html

shrekgrinch says

The folks involved in the article have a vested interest in maintaining and even expanding the education debt bubble.

Are you talking about the Hamilton Project run by the Brookings Institution? Why would they have a vested interest in expanding the education debt bubble?

We need to invest in education in order to advance our economy. I agree that what we need to do is find a way to reduce education debt, not increase it, but I'm not convinced the Brookings Institution feels differently about that.

It's also a false comparison to compare college graduates to all high school graduates.

I'm sure the high school grads who could have graduated college but didn't go are generally doing OK. They are certainly doing better than the shocking number of functional illiterates who get the same high school degree.

Where would Silicon Valley be if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs had graduated from college?

C Boy says

Where would Silicon Valley be if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs had graduated from college?

Jobs ripped off Xerox to make their OS, while Bill Gates ripped off Gary Kildall to create their DOS-OS and later Apple to create a DOS-GUI. And Gary was years ahead of both of them. But very few even know who he is.

If there was no Microsoft we would still have far more software apps companies which MS killed off over the years. Digital Research, Inc would be as large as MS today located in the Pacific Grove, Ca.

C Boy says

Where would Silicon Valley be if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs had graduated from college?

Haha. Gates, Jobs, Zuckerburg...they just stole their way to the top. Yes, where would Silicon Valley be without these innovators of crime?

As for the article, a $2000/semester college is fine for anyone, considering a lot of jobs just want to see a degree on your resume. College is worthless anyway from a learning standpoint, job experience is all that matters and anyone can learn on the job.

StoutFiles says

College is worthless anyway from a learning standpoint, job experience is all that matters and anyone can learn on the job.

A college degree is one of the things that show you're able to work within the system.

Much like wearing a suit.

College is good if you can't learn to do something on your own. And of course if you plan to go to elite financial institutions than without you going to Yale/Stanford or some other prestige school those doors will be closed, since those places are a club.

With the way information is shared on the internet now, colleges seem a bit like an outdated way to learn. It's good for socializing perhaps and frat parties, but not for education. I graduated long ago, biggest waste of my time and money. Four years of my life I will not get back.

tts says

Becoming say a mechanical engineer, OK NOW you’re talking. The problem is those jobs aren’t exactly growing on trees and the free internships that you’d typically use to get your foot in the door are scarce now days.

I suspect that they are not scarce if you are willing to relocate to China.

Something to consider:

We used to have a golden rule that housing should not cost more than X=3 times gross income.

We should have a similar rule that college should not cost more than Y=? times the expected INCREASE in income due to the specific knowledge and qualifications acquired.

Somebody must have worked out what Y should be. Of course, the real hard part is to make the incoming potential freshmen properly estimate what kind of major and degree and associated knowledge they will acquire, before having started.

College Value Calculator, anyone?

shrekgrinch says

Just because they have done great work in other fields where they didn’t have this conflict of interest doesn’t somehow automagically negate it in this case.

Actually it does. :)

Reading your other posts here, I should probably agree to disagree. The real answer is somewhere between ideological anti-credentialism and the people who have a stake in the education debt bubble. The Brookings Institution is certainly somewhere in the middle.

zzyzzx says

I suspect that they are not scarce if you are willing to relocate to China.

They've got plenty over there already who will work for less and speak the local language without issue. There are only a few jobs these days where its really worth it to try and immigrate to another country. No one makes immigration easy.

There has been a bit of anti college rhetoric lately. I think that the placement of it should be more against FAFSA than anything else. When we subsidize student loans it makes them easier to get and it fills classes. But this just leads to prices going up.

Not all students end up in debt. Many schools have payment plans that make it simpler rather than paying it all at once. Go to public instead of private, buy used instead of new books (ebooks are growing anyway), go to a two year first before a four year (that way after two years you have a degree instead of just credits) Educational debt cannot be removed in bankruptcy so saving money in it does make sense.

From an employer point of view it is much easier to confirm a degree than someones experience. A century ago employers might have taught people skills but these days they are proprietary (outside of government compliance). It makes little sense for say IBM to each something that has a value to AT&T. I have seen companies that use generic software that looks like say..Excel but it isn't because they don't want people to learn a skill that has a use somewhere else. With education one can see transcripts showing classes, grades, who the professor was etc. With experience there's no real incentive for companies to provide information on prior employees.

Employers want more and more. In the 1980's this started with drug tests, later in the 90s it was background checks and now some are even doing credit checks. The argument is if you can connect a job to finances then you shouldn't have people in debt around it.

Vocational schools are nice as a concept but unfortunately much of them were simply tied to housing. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical..it's not the same market. I remember my high school had a vocational wing and during a tour a teach there told us "You don't need to learn any foreign languages, any math or science...ALL you need to know is..." sweet lord. I personally know mechanics that state not to become one because it is a thankless job. He was even in a union and frankly it didn't help (no strike fund, no pay raises unless ironically he gets a degree). You also have a fair amount that cannot fix cars due to the OBE-II systems (check engine lights) and have to go to a dealership.

"There are only a few jobs these days where its really worth it to try and immigrate to another country"

Depends. Teaching English as a foreign language is a large field. They often can give dirt cheap if not free housing. This is if you have a bachelors or higher though.

As for silicon valley and ripping people off it happens all the time. Steve Jobs originally worked for Nolan Bushnell at Atari. If they had more money the Apple 1 would have been Atari. They didn't have enough funds so Jobs left. But yet there are also companies that buy out companies not to use their material but to make sure others don't. Be was bought by Palm and then Palm was bought by HP. Apple could have bought be back in '96 instead of Next but stupidly chose not to.

Lastly is that there is a growing field companies that might slap a degree as a requirement for top management. If you are working 50 hours a week it will take a long time to get a degree. In the northeast you pretty much have to have a degree to get a job. When over a third of people have degree and the numbers keep increasing eventually it will cross 50% and if you don't have one then you are sol.

Actually, I don't have any problem with promoting the $2000 per semester JUCO or Trade school. These are awesome programs with a proven track record of success. They are value bets.

They're much better than droppping $10000 per semester for a state University.

Nomograph says

The anti-education crowd here are the same folks who complain because they can’t afford housing.

Interesting.

I'm just out of college with a good job after finishing a four year school. I'd say 5% of what I learned is relevant, and it isn't anything I couldn't have taught myself. College is just used to help define a class structure. I'm not anti-education, but colleges fill the course load with so much waste to keep you there 4 years, not to mention it's really an excuse to party for most.

I can't afford a house yet, but by afford I mean pay for a house in full. I could go out tomorrow and get a big bank loan, but that's not me affording to buy a house, it's just me being in debt to the bank for 30 years. I want at least 50% down on a house that's only 2x times my yearly salary. Almost there.

StoutFiles says

colleges fill the course load with so much waste to keep you there 4 years

That's how they run their business and pensions. In real world none of those courses come handy.

Nomograph says

The anti-education crowd here are the same folks who complain because they can’t afford housing.

Being able to afford housing is different than thinking an asset is overpriced

justme says

llege Value Calculator, anyone?

I am going to try to make one of these. I am trying to learn how to code in Python.

corntrollio says

The title implies college is a good investment for cashiers. What?! If I drop $200K to go to college and then work at 7-11, college is a good investment?

That’s not exactly what the article said. It said that you can go to public college for $2000/year, when you consider federal aid, and gave a cite. No one suggested going to Schools for the Dumb Rich if you’re a cashier.

This is a fair point. I overstated.

PRIME says

justme says

llege Value Calculator, anyone?

I am going to try to make one of these. I am trying to learn how to code in Python.

That would be interesting. I think you should start with an apples-to-apples comparison, that is, compare high school graduates and college graduates with similar ACT/SAT scores. The usual media story makes a simplistic calculation of HS grads and college grads and says "College grads make X more!". Well, duh. College filters out the functional illiterates. I've no doubts that college grads make more, but I'm sure the difference is less than the simplistic comparison. I'm also sure the comparisons are well documented, but aren't nearly as shocking as the typical media story claims.

And I know this is beyond the scope of your project, but what difference would it make if all adults in the US somehow earned a college degree? Would the GDP go up a little, or alot?

Nomograph says

The anti-education crowd here are the same folks who complain because they can’t afford housing.

Interesting.

Considering that the costs of a college education have been going up faster than inflation for years, I'm not surprised that housing skeptics are also college education skeptics.

mdovell says

I think that the placement of it should be more against FAFSA than anything else.

FAFSA is just a form that you fill out to calculate the federal formula for aid. Do you mean the Dept of Ed? Or perhaps a particular division of the government that is involved in student loans?

mdovell says

You also have a fair amount that cannot fix cars due to the OBE-II systems (check engine lights) and have to go to a dealership.

OBD-II has been around since 1996. If those mechanics haven't evolved beyond 16 year-old cars, they deservedly are out of jobs.

mdovell says

A century ago employers might have taught people skills but these days they are proprietary (outside of government compliance). It makes little sense for say IBM to each something that has a value to AT&T. I have seen companies that use generic software that looks like say..Excel but it isn’t because they don’t want people to learn a skill that has a use somewhere else.

I don't buy this, actually -- whether the companies like it or not, the knowledge is not turning out to be proprietary. If anything, jobs have become more mobile, not less mobile. Back in the day, people mostly worked for one company, and that's it. Now, it's not expected that you'll have lifetime tenure with one company. Regardless of whether companies intend that their job skills are transferable, those job skills are in fact transferable because people increasingly switch jobs.

EMan says

College is good if you can’t learn to do something on your own. And of course if you plan to go to elite financial institutions than without you going to Yale/Stanford or some other prestige school those doors will be closed, since those places are a club.

What's interesting according to recent studies is that going to an Ivy League school like Yale or Harvard doesn't make as much of a difference in terms of long-term job prospects/income as does *applying* to an Ivy League school. The bona fide chance of being admitted is a huge qualification, because those people are likely motivated and intellectual curious. Whether they actually get admitted is a combination of luck, demographics, and various other factors.

This gives a lot of credence to what PRIME said above about how it could be that the people who go to college are smarter, more motivated, intellectually curious people who make more money, and what I said, that plumbers who went to college might be better problem-solvers and better businesspersons for a variety of reasons.

EMan says

With the way information is shared on the internet now, colleges seem a bit like an outdated way to learn. It’s good for socializing perhaps and frat parties, but not for education. I graduated long ago, biggest waste of my time and money. Four years of my life I will not get back.

Bummer for you, college for me was awesome. That's four years of my life I'd love to be back in. Add that to the fact that if I knew then what I know now, e.g. that college would be the most freedom I'd ever have in life and that I should have been more willing to learn new things and less risk-adverse at times, college would have been even more fun than it already was. I agree that part of going to college is socializing, etc., but it's less true for college than say business school.

To some extent this goes back to what PRIME said -- if you are intellectually curious, then college can be quite great. You can enrich yourself in many ways.

What many of you seem to be criticizing is the vast majority of art history majors, for example, who don't plan to work at a museum. My friend who was an art history major who now works at a major NY museum was quite intellectual curious about art and knew it was what she wanted to do. The people I knew who got random liberal arts degrees because it was "something to do," less so.

It's like the people who get law degrees because "it's a versatile degree" or "it can help me get other jobs besides being an attorney" or "my mom wants me to do it." That's not really a great rationale to go to law school.

"They’re much better than droppping $10000 per semester for a state University."
A few extra p's there :-p but most state universities don't cost 10K a semester
http://www.umb.edu/administration_finance/bursar/tuition_fees.html
Now if you are a non resident then it's high but I highly doubt anyone would not try to get residency at any public university if they are not a resident. I'm not saying that UMass Boston's rates are indicative of other schools but I haven't seen that many public institutions that high..private sure.

"FAFSA is just a form that you fill out to calculate the federal formula for aid. Do you mean the Dept of Ed? Or perhaps a particular division of the government that is involved in student loans?"
Basically the whole public student loan market. Granted Obama did make things a tad better by taking middlemen out but just the idea that nearly anyone financially can attend is a bit shaky. It means more and more debt will pile up. On the same note in Mass we have what is called the community preservation act. The state will match with towns dollar for dollar what is put into a fund to preserve land. Sounds good...except the matching is based on what ever town was in first. Those that got in years ago have great deals..the last town is going to be screwed.

"OBD-II has been around since 1996. If those mechanics haven’t evolved beyond 16 year-old cars, they deservedly are out of jobs."
Google "right to repair"
http://www.righttorepair.org/about/reality.aspx
I listen to NYC radio sometimes and on WUSB and WBAI Emmanual Goldstein (he's a host) bought a Smart car in canada and lives in the NYC metro area. When the check engine light came on he brought it to a shop..the shop told him to go to a dealership. The dealership said due to software license issues he'd have to go back to the Canadian dealership! A friend I know that's a mechanic scanned mine once due to a light..the meter doesn't read Nissans. When I went to a dealership about it later I had to go back three times and at one point they stated they cannot guarantee that the light won't come back on. You cannot pass inspection in my state with that light on..eventually the issue was solved but it creates a significant monopoly that the auto companies want more money in maintenance (can't blame them) by putting codes in a closed format. I'm not against computers in cars but what is wrong with knowing what is wrong? It's not like you have to take a computer back to microsoft to get it fixed if you get a BSOD.

"I don’t buy this, actually — whether the companies like it or not, the knowledge is not turning out to be proprietary. If anything, jobs have become more mobile, not less mobile. Back in the day, people mostly worked for one company, and that’s it. Now, it’s not expected that you’ll have lifetime tenure with one company. Regardless of whether companies intend that their job skills are transferable, those job skills are in fact transferable because people increasingly switch jobs."

Experience in one company is not indicative of another. I've seen someone quit over that once. He had experience with a competitor and thought he could just use equipment. He was grossly overweight to the point where he could not use that equipment by our standards. Not all companies have the same standards as everyone else. At one point I worked with former coal miners from Appalachia. Without question some of the hardest working people I've seen in my life.But if left alone they throw enough caution into the wind to cause a heart attack. It got to the point where the company no longer allows employees to work directly with them.

The culture of some companies is largely enough to dictate specifically as to how things are to be done. I'm sure you know of Sigma six but IBM for quite some time had a hard doctrine and so did At&t.

I will say you DO have to be versatile. By that I mean open to move, open to train, open to be trained. A colleague of mine travels to Europe (Netherlands I believe) and Asia (Philippines) a few times a year. There's no doubt in my mind that had he not agreed to do that he would be unemployed by now. I would also say working for a company for a long period of time eventually looks bad because it shows a lack of demand. It would mean the employee is solely dependent on the viability of that organization. I would also add if someone works for the largest companies in their field and gets laid off they can be at a disadvantage because smaller firms might not have the same resources, needs or technologies.

A job should also be viewed upon the variance that it experiences. If someone is a police officer in Kimball Nebraska for say 15 years vs. one that has spent the past five years in LA the one in LA has probably had a much higher amount of experience. Eventually there is a limit to experience in a given job unless it has significant variance. Experience usually is equated with seeing a diverse amount of material and being able to solve problems and issues.

I hear you on law school. Personally I would never want to become a lawyer or doctor. Sure the money can be there but being 100K in debt is not for me. The other issue I've noticed is some that change their major say more than twice and if there are credits strung across a half dozen or so schools. As far as from what I understand most at least in the north east don't allow you to transfer more than two years.

mdovell says

Be was bought by Palm and then Palm was bought by HP. Apple could have bought be back in ‘96 instead of Next but stupidly chose not to.

To be fair Jean-Louis Gassée refused Apple's offer of $200 million and held out for $400 million.

Palm paid $11 million for Be.

mdovell says

A friend I know that’s a mechanic scanned mine once due to a light..the meter doesn’t read Nissans. When I went to a dealership about it later I had to go back three times and at one point they stated they cannot guarantee that the light won’t come back on. You cannot pass inspection in my state with that light on..

It sounds like the mechanics you are talking to haven't kept up with the times. Did you even ask them what the code was? You have to evolve with your profession or it'll leave you behind. What you are getting is bad information. Just because your mechanic friend's code reader couldn't deal with Nissans doesn't mean all code readers or all mechanics are like that. I can buy an OBD-II cable for my car, can get the codes, and can reprogram certain settings for Canada vs. U.S. vs. EU. So can you.

With respect to the SMART car, I think either Goldstein is not giving all the information, or the dealership isn't. They need to be more specific than "licensing issue," e.g. does the Canadian version actually have different software? I doubt it. Does the Canadian version require a client software that's not easily available or licensed for the U.S.? That's possible, but less likely than say EU vs. US because usually cars for the North American market are largely similar. This again sounds like it's coming from someone uninformed.

My mechanic does just fine with these things. He can read the code and he lists them for me so I can look them up myself too. Because he does not have a re-programming machine, he calls his contracted guy to do that and charges it to me at his cost (which is less than 2/3 of what the dealer charges to reprogram). Reprogramming is extremely rare -- it is usually only if there is a TSB on something or if there is a recall (if it's a recall, the dealership does it for free, obviously).

He was grossly overweight to the point where he could not use that equipment by our standards.

This sounds like an equipment difference, not that proprietary skills are involved. Also, I don't understand why you're comparing coal mining to IBM. Yes, if you work at company X vs. company Y, then you may have to use different software, different computers, and generally different equipment, but that doesn't say anything about skills.

mdovell says

There has been a bit of anti college rhetoric lately

No there hasn't, you're just misreading and/or interpreting. What others and I are saying is that college should be cheaper, the college debt dischargable, and college shouldn't be required to get a job. There should be options.

mdovell says

Not all students end up in debt.

Nearly all of them do. Most families don't have the cash for college and you know it. So don't go trying to make that mountain look like a molehill, it makes you seem facetious.

mdovell says

From an employer point of view it is much easier to confirm a degree than someones experience.

BS. You can easily and cheaply do a backround search on someone these days through services like Spokeo. Especially if they have a Facebook or MySpace account. Also there is such a thing as doing the classic call up previous employers and check on the employees thing that is still done today.

mdovell says

Employers want more and more.

Sure but is that OK or even good? I'll tell you right now it isn't since labor is under represented in this country and more and more is being abused.

mdovell says

Vocational schools are nice as a concept but unfortunately much of them were simply tied to housing. Carpentry, plumbing, electrical..it’s not the same market.

You left out other stuff like machinist, welder, and yes even IT, as well as nursing, mechanic, etc. There is no goddamn reason at all to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to go to college to learn these things.

mdovell says

I personally know mechanics that state not to become one because it is a thankless job.

Oh yea? Well I know mechanics and machinists who get paid more than some college grads who love their job and get a kick out of building things every day. That is 2 people dude so my anecdote trumps yours.

That is sarcasm BTW...
mdovell says

You also have a fair amount that cannot fix cars due to the OBE-II systems (check engine lights) and have to go to a dealership.

What the shit is this? You can get OBEII readers off ebay that do the job for most any car out there for less than $50 these days. Its not the late 90's anymore dude.

mdovell says

Depends. Teaching English as a foreign language is a large field. They often can give dirt cheap if not free housing. This is if you have a bachelors or higher though.

Teaching overseas isn't worth it anymore unless you've got a cherry job already lined up with overseas buds. Hasn't been worth it to teach overseas in most countries since the early 2000's, the field got saturated with people fresh out of college who wanted to go overseas and see the world when word got out how "sweet" it was. You also tend to get paid shit even if you do pull it off now, which is fine inside most forgein countries since cost of living scales but when you get back to the US, which you will you will have almost no money.

mdovell says

When over a third of people have degree and the numbers keep increasing eventually it will cross 50% and if you don’t have one then you are sol.

Great anti labor attitude you're sporting there. Expecting most everyone to go into debt just to have a chance at a job, any job much less a decent one, is regressive in the extreme.

"To be fair Jean-Louis Gassée refused Apple’s offer of $200 million and held out for $400 million. Palm paid $11 million for Be."
True although I do have to say that having used Be it was years ahead of what apple had.Then again when a founder comes back it's hard to ignore them.

"It sounds like the mechanics you are talking to haven’t kept up with the times. Did you even ask them what the code was? You have to evolve with your profession or it’ll leave you behind. What you are getting is bad information. Just because your mechanic friend’s code reader couldn’t deal with Nissans doesn’t mean all code readers or all mechanics are like that. I can buy an OBD-II cable for my car, can get the codes, and can reprogram certain settings for Canada vs. U.S. vs. EU. So can you."

I didn't say all code readers couldn't read it. His couldn't.

" This again sounds like it’s coming from someone uninformed."

Well that's what happened. You can read it for yourself here
http://www.451s.com/profile/EmmanuelGoldstein?xg_source=activity
"But every now and then I have to deal with some insanity caused by a combination of technology and the fact that the car is licensed to another country. For instance, no Smart dealer in the U.S. was allowed to do any maintenance on this car because they had no access to the computer system with the codes for this model. Last year, the main computer in the car failed less than a month after the warranty expired and it cost over $3000 to replace when there was nothing mechanically wrong with the car. Both of these involved having to drive to Canada to resolve the problems. But I digress."

I'm not doubting that eventually codes can be found and fixed but the process is not always as simple. I had a small evap leak..which is fine but even in knowing that the error message is not specific enough to indicate WHERE the leak is. I have no problem with electronics as long as it gets specific..like in the near future I think they have a mandate that cars will indicate when there is low tire pressure.

"What others and I are saying is that college should be cheaper, the college debt dischargable, and college shouldn’t be required to get a job. There should be options."

I wouldn't say it should be discharged but costs should at least flatten. If we keep subsidizing it naturally it will keep going up. College is generally required by some employers because high school isn't enough. Not all high schools have the same funding, classes, staffing etc. So the only way to remedy this is to go further up. I just have to ask if someone has no experience or degree what employer takes the risk of hiring that person?

"Nearly all of them do. Most families don’t have the cash for college and you know it. So don’t go trying to make that mountain look like a molehill, it makes you seem facetious"
Nearly all? Try 2/3rds
http://www.finaid.org/loans/
Personally I'm not a fan of the private for profit schools and the data here indicates why.
Undergrad debt for a public 2 year degree is less than 11K. High end degrees in law, business and medicine do have high debt there's no argument there. For a four year public school the amount borrowing is $23,227...which is about 5K less than the median price for buying a new car
www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm

"BS. You can easily and cheaply do a backround search on someone these days through services like Spokeo. Especially if they have a Facebook or MySpace account. Also there is such a thing as doing the classic call up previous employers and check on the employees thing that is still done today."

Myspace? sweet lord man that thing is dead. Employers do not always provide information. I used to skiptrace for a living so I know. There's so many fake profiles on those sites that it can be hard to determine what is real. You do know that people can block Spokeo listenings...right ?

"Sure but is that OK or even good? I’ll tell you right now it isn’t since labor is under represented in this country and more and more is being abused. "
I'm not saying it's good or even right but it's just what I am seeing.The worst was when I saw ads 10 or so years ago wanting eight years experience with Windows XP..maybe it was a typo but it certainly didn't attract applicants.

"You left out other stuff like machinist, welder, and yes even IT, as well as nursing, mechanic, etc. There is no goddamn reason at all to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to go to college to learn these things."

Well with nursing there are nursing schools and degrees. You can't simply apply without something under your belt with that. Even with mechanics there's still things like ASE certification. I'm not saying college has to be THE standard but there has to be some form of a standard. If it's certification, if it's a program, if it's an apprenticeship etc.

"Teaching overseas isn’t worth it anymore unless you’ve got a cherry job already lined up with overseas buds. Hasn’t been worth it to teach overseas in most countries since the early 2000’s, the field got saturated with people fresh out of college who wanted to go overseas and see the world when word got out how “sweet” it was. You also tend to get paid shit even if you do pull it off now, which is fine inside most forgein countries since cost of living scales but when you get back to the US, which you will you will have almost no money."

Well of course the pay is lower but that's because the cost of living is lower. I've been to asia and europe. You don't get rich off of it but it is cheap living at least for awhile. Check out eslcafe.com it has a fair amount about it with some message boards too.As for having no money in getting back well it is like that on a domestic scale as well. Anyone that moved out of the northeast and bought housing over the past ten years probably can't afford to move back.

"Great anti labor attitude you’re sporting there. Expecting most everyone to go into debt just to have a chance at a job, any job much less a decent one, is regressive in the extreme."

No I didn't advocate going into debt. As I mentioned most schools can have payment plans without the need of loans. If the amount of loan debt for a bachelor degree is about heck let's round it up to 25K. 25K divided by 208 (52 weeks a year for 4 years) That's $120 a week. Is it hard to work and go to school at the same time? I'd say yes but it can be done. Any concerns about the tuition going up can simply put funds into a 529 plan. I'll admit textbooks can add up but ebooks can drop prices.

All I'm basically getting at is that higher education is the easiest item for a employer to quantify. I worked with a women who has about 30 years experience doing accounting. She was let go late last year and she cannot get a job as an accountant because she does not have a degree. Others were at companies that no longer exist making it harder to confirm with anyone about information about it.

Cook County resident says

And I know this is beyond the scope of your project, but what difference would it make if all adults in the US somehow earned a college degree? Would the GDP go up a little, or alot?

This is an interesting question. I don't think it would make a difference if all adults earned "a college degree", but it would make a difference if they earned "the right college degree." Certain college degrees do not impact GDP growth at all (for example, I had a friend who went to a good school, majored in anthropology and is now giving private music lessons). If more students were studying computer science, then I think GDP growth would go up.

PRIME says

This is an interesting question. I don’t think it would make a difference if all adults earned “a college degree”, but it would make a difference if they earned “the right college degree.” Certain college degrees do not impact GDP growth at all (for example, I had a friend who went to a good school, majored in anthropology and is now giving private music lessons). If more students were studying computer science, then I think GDP growth would go up.

I think you're right about that.

Even if there were a degree in Cashierology it wouldn't mean degreed cashiers would do more efficient and profitable work than the other cashiers who show up on time every day, work hard and know where all the buttons on the register are.

There's obviously a comparative advantage between degreed job applicants and non-degreed job applicants. A college degree is evidence that the applicant isn't part of the American underclass.

But most work that needs to be done doesn't require a college degree and the total advantage, in a proportional sense, is smaller than the comparative advantage. That is, until everybody gets their degree.

mdovell says

As I mentioned most schools can have payment plans without the need of loans. If the amount of loan debt for a bachelor degree is about heck let’s round it up to 25K. 25K divided by 208 (52 weeks a year for 4 years) That’s $120 a week. Is it hard to work and go to school at the same time? I’d say yes but it can be done. Any concerns about the tuition going up can simply put funds into a 529 plan. I’ll admit textbooks can add up but ebooks can drop prices.

All I’m basically getting at is that higher education is the easiest item for a employer to quantify. I worked with a women who has about 30 years experience doing accounting. She was let go late last year and she cannot get a job as an accountant because she does not have a degree. Others were at companies that no longer exist making it harder to confirm with anyone about information about it.

It doesn't matter whether it's "possible" to go to colllege by working or by taking out loans.

The fact is that college for the most part is useless. Period. They teach you nothing.

They only value from it is to impress dumb & incompetent middle management drones into hiring you.

Would you want a plastic surgeon to cut you that just got a medical degree along with the required specialization medical degree for plastic surgery?

No you would want someone that's been involved in this for a long time by DOING...

College doesn't teach you anything except that it gives a sense of entitlement to idiots that they are entitled to a job because they repeated what their Professors in college said.

The truth about college is coming out slowly - as more people go into college - spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with no job... And a huge debt that can't be discharged; they are slaves!

And by the way, ivy league schools are the worst; Grade inflation and brainwashing graduates into thinking they are so special than the rest of others.

"It doesn’t matter whether it’s “possible” to go to colllege by working or by taking out loans."
College? Is that like sschhooll?

"The fact is that college for the most part is useless. Period. They teach you nothing."

If it is useless then why would it be required for jobs then? Obviously if a job requires a degree in lieu of experience (granted on a given ratio that isn't 1:1) then there is value.

"Would you want a plastic surgeon to cut you that just got a medical degree along with the required specialization medical degree for plastic surgery?"

So you would want to see a doctor that never went to med school or a lawyer that never passed a bar exam? How about an electrician that didn't know the electrical code in your town/city?

"No you would want someone that’s been involved in this for a long time by DOING"

Experience is good I won't put it down but if someone has experience then that means they should be able to pass the tests and do classwork then. If they can't then what did they learn from their experience? This reminds me of a women I know that dropped out of high school and is looking to become a teacher by getting a job as a school bus driver? huh? She thinks if you spend enough time around kids that the administrators at the school with "give her a chance"! Now keep in mind there are no incentives for an employer to give another employer any information about a former employee. Sometimes there are even privacy laws against such action. At a former job we had an employee fired due to drug use. We are not allowed to tell other employers why that person was fired.

How can you quantify experience without a given metric? That is how can you prove the time on the job is with the time that is put into place. You have to have a given standard, a benchmark, a level to prove a value. I am not saying it must be a degree. It can be a industry certification, a competency test an exam etc. People with experience in a given field should be able to pass tests in their field.

"College doesn’t teach you anything except that it gives a sense of entitlement to idiots that they are entitled to a job because they repeated what their Professors in college said."

If it doesn't teach you anything then why do employers have it as a requirement? Do you honestly think that employers will teach skills that have a value to a competitor fully knowing that would make them more apt to leave to that competitor?

In Mass under the quinn bill police get a 10% boost in pay with an associates, bachelors and masters degree. Why? Because you get a more professional police force with less civil rights complaints. Public servants can get sued for quite a bit of money if they screw up with peoples rights. In the military you can (not saying you will) be able to enter as an officer if you complete a degree.

Why is the unemployment rate going back decades consistently lower by higher education?

"The truth about college is coming out slowly - as more people go into college - spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with no job… And a huge debt that can’t be discharged; they are slaves!"

Hundreds of thousands? The median debt for a four year degree at a public school is less than 25K..which is less than a new car but we don't tell people buying new cars that they shouldn't do it..and yet in 2009 over 10 million new cars were sold
www.autotrends.org/2010/05/20/is-17-million-annual-car-sales-possible

A wedding costs on average at least 20K. And yet we have no problem allowing more people to get married.
www.smartmoney.com/spend/family-money/theyll-never-know-eight-hidden-ways-to-cut-wedding-costs-13918

Certainly 25K is no small change but you certainly need to put it in perspective here. In addition let's not forget housing with so many with negative equity.

"And by the way, ivy league schools are the worst; Grade inflation and brainwashing graduates into thinking they are so special than the rest of others."

Well the argument of the thread is if it pays off and I would say it does.

@mdovell

It so obvious that you are just trying to win an argument just for the sake of winning.

Arguing emotionally on the internet is lame. If you want to be a tough guy - argue with someone face to face with the same rudeness.

And by the way - none of your comments are valid including the ones in they other thread.

You seem more interested in winning arguments than at discussing the issues behind those arguments. And it's very well evident by you trying to nitpick & then leaving wise-ass know-it-all comments.

mdovell says

Do you honestly think that employers will teach skills that have a value to a competitor fully knowing that would make them more apt to leave to that competitor?

If companies treated their employees well and paid them the going rate, they would be in no danger of losing trained employees to a competitor.

If it doesn’t teach you anything then why do employers have it as a requirement?

To go even further, the last company I worked at had narrowed down the college degrees to only 4 colleges. Coincidentally, it was the same 4 colleges that senior mgmt graduated from.

I'm all for discussing the issues. I believe that much of this lead to the development of standardized testing in high schools in the past 20 or so years. I understand the idea behind No Child Left Behind although I think the program of Race to the Top is going a bit too far.

"If companies treated their employees well and paid them the going rate, they would be in no danger of losing trained employees to a competitor."

Well pay is just one factor though. Working conditions can make up for lower pay sometimes. I used to work for a company that had a onsite gym, onsite day care, film development (this was a decade ago), dry cleaner and excellent cafeteria (they had division that does catering all over the country). It was a corporate HQ office but it felt more like a center of town when you walked inside. If you examine any organization that's new (private business and one can say religions too) is it eventually divides itself due to different means of objectives and purposes. The company I reference here did have former employees leave during the 80's and start up their own which actually rivals it today. Sadly most of the perks I mentioned were gradually phased out over the past ten years. Another factor can be a commute. I saw a open position recently that was very good in the pay but neither I nor my friends would apply because the commute would have be a few hours each way. The actual conditions at work are always a factor as well. A former employer of mine even with the market today always looks for people but I wouldn't go back. Swears are one thing but when death threats happened that was another.

MCM I am not attempting to be rude but when someone interjects conspiracy banter into an argument how is it to be discussed? When I cite data and it is ignored how is that a debate? If I use personal experiences that is dismissed as well so of course the conversation goes nowhere.

All I am doing is applying basic game theory...maybe a PEST or SWOT analysis.

I can understand there is anger with the way the job market is.
How about this for basic discussion..

Is it a standard or is it discrimination?

Drug Tests started in the 1980's. Now I cannot see anyone professional attempting to do drugs while at work but others would argue that if it is on their own time who's business is it? Some states have decriminalized marijuana so if it isn't an actual legal crime and is not occurring at work then what is the real purpose?

Background checks also occur to obtain employment. If an employee is fired new employers cannot ask why that employee was fired. That presents uncertainty and some could generalize that to simply not hire anyone that was ever fired.

Some states have made it illegal to perform credit checks on job applicants. If a job involves physically dealing with cash is that enough of a reason to have this as a requirement? If someone owes money (for whatever reason) are they more apt to skim off their employer?

Cboy I believe it. Reminds me a bit of Six Sigma

Like it or not, college is a necessity these days. I don't necessarily think you learn so much in college but it's a stepping stone and it's just about IMPOSSIBLE to land a good job without a college degree.

No one is saying you have to go to a prestigious school but a college degree is a necessity. Much depends what major you get. If you get a worthless degree like Art, History, Communications well then it is a waste of money for the most part.

But anyone that says that a college degree isn't a necessity is fooling themselves. A high school degree is nothing.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Depressing how many have been brain washed by the employers these days and hold views against their own and others well being.

mdovell says

I wouldn’t say it should be discharged but costs should at least flatten.

The root of the problem is that the debt was made undischargable in the first place. Banks stopped caring once that happened and will happily loan out tens of thousands to any fool 18 or 19 year old for college if they know they can't get out of paying for it which in turn starts to drive up the cost of college for everyone over time.

mdovell says

I just have to ask if someone has no experience or degree what employer takes the risk of hiring that person?

Used to be that employers accepted some risk by hiring someone totally green in a entry level position and promoted them up through the ranks. Or they used internships as training and a selection process. Internships still exist today but seem to be rarely used anymore for their original intent and employers no longer really give a shit about their employees so promoting through the ranks is uncommon or even unheard of now. This country and others ran for decades just like this perfectly fine and if anything was better then than it is now.

mdovell says

Nearly all? Try 2/3rds
http://www.finaid.org/loans/

From your own link:
"Among graduating 4-year undergraduate students who applied for federal student aid, 86.3% borrowed to pay for their education and the average cumulative debt was $24,651. (For just federal student loan debt, excluding PLUS Loans, the figures are 61.6% and $17,878.) Average cumulative debt increased by 5.6% or $1,139 a year since 2003-04. When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803."

It should be no shock to anyone with half a brain that people in general do not have the money saved up to pay for college today. The rising cost of living and the stagnant and/or falling wages would alone guarantee that in the future if it wasn't already true since the cost of college keeps rising faster than inflation year after year. Go ahead and keep on trying to downplay this, you'll look the fool to anyone who is shelling out for it or will have to.

mdovell says

Personally I’m not a fan of the private for profit schools and the data here indicates why.

That is great and all but who said vocational schools had to be private?

mdovell says

Myspace? sweet lord man that thing is dead. Employers do not always provide information. I used to skiptrace for a living so I know. There’s so many fake profiles on those sites that it can be hard to determine what is real. You do know that people can block Spokeo listenings…right ?

So you did this for a living? Then you know there is more out there than Spokeo right and that I was just tossing out a simple, cheap, and fast example that works most of the time? Don't give me some line of nonesense that doing a back round search on someone is hard or terribly expensive these days, you know its easier now then it was back in the pre PC days. If you got to hire a PI sure it gets real pricey but you can easily get tons of info. on someone without doing that.

mdovell says

I’m not saying it’s good or even right but it’s just what I am seeing.The worst was when I saw ads 10 or so years ago wanting eight years experience with Windows XP..maybe it was a typo but it certainly didn’t attract applicants.

OK I've seen stuff like that too but so what? Why should potential employees cater to and treat as serious obviously BS demands like that? If you saw a job ad that wanted 50 years experience programming for $10/hr would you also treat it seriously?

mdovell says

Well with nursing there are nursing schools and degrees.

You can get a degree or certification if you like from any vocational school too. Hell if you like I can print out a piece of paper with the word "certification" or "degree" on it and mail it to you.

mdovell says

You can’t simply apply without something under your belt with that.

Sure you can. I did work in a hospital via a CROP class in highschool over 10 years ago. It was 6 months long then you work another 6 months in the hospital, which was liscenced as a training facility, as a PCT then you could take the test and be a nurse. That was over 10 years ago and things have changed since then but not a whole lot. You can see the program here:

http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/cms/page_view?d=x&piid=&vpid=1232371008612

and here is more:

http://www.coastlinerop.schoolloop.com/cms/page_view?d=x&piid=&vpid=1231766503145

This is not the only program like this nor is it a bad one, its just the one I'm familiar with or at least was 10 years ago. It was and still is far and away one of the best ones out there IMO since it can get a high school kid a good paying job with benefits with nearly no cost at all within a year or a year and a half. It covers lots lots more than nursing too BTW.

mdovell says

Even with mechanics there’s still things like ASE certification. I’m not saying college has to be THE standard but there has to be some form of a standard. If it’s certification, if it’s a program, if it’s an apprenticeship etc.

Why in the world do you think a degree or cert has to come from a college? What makes a degree or cert from a college so special or is better than one from a vocational school?

mdovell says

Well of course the pay is lower but that’s because the cost of living is lower. I’ve been to asia and europe. You don’t get rich off of it but it is cheap living at least for awhile. ...Anyone that moved out of the northeast and bought housing over the past ten years probably can’t afford to move back.

Yea you basically just agreed with what I said and made the case for why shit paying jobs during or out of college are so bad as well.

mdovell says

No I didn’t advocate going into debt.

Yes you do even if you don't mean too. You know how much college costs and its not hard at all to find out avg. wages and wealth distribution even if you want to ignore or handwave away the numbers of the people in debt. You go to college these days as a non rich person you're coming out in debt per your own links.

mdovell says

As I mentioned most schools can have payment plans without the need of loans.

Payment plans does not automagically equal affordable, particularly if you're stuck in a Starbucks-esque job after or during college. Particularly if the payment plan allows them to inflate the cost of the total college tuition. We need affordable colleges, not payment plans or more undischargable debt, or any other gimmicks. Just make it cheaper, its not rocket science.

mdovell says

Is it hard to work and go to school at the same time? I’d say yes but it can be done.

Why should we expect anyone to work and go to college at the same time? Just because it could be done doesn't mean it should done much less that it is right to do so. Elsewhere in the world college and schooling costs, even vocational schooling costs, are kept low and affordable or even totally paid for by the state. Why should it be any different here?

mdovell says

All I’m basically getting at is that higher education is the easiest item for a employer to quantify. I worked with a women who has about 30 years experience doing accounting. She was let go late last year and she cannot get a job as an accountant because she does not have a degree. Others were at companies that no longer exist making it harder to confirm with anyone about information about it.

This is because employers are acting like assholes and have retarded hiring policies. 30 years experience in a field trumps a college kid or even a guy with a degree and a few years experience any day. Instead of saying that though you blame those being abused. You're effectively brainwashed by your employers and/or mildly sociopathic so it was probably a waste of time to type this all out per se since you probably won't change your midn but maybe others can read this and learn a little something.

mdovell says

MCM I am not attempting to be rude but when someone interjects conspiracy banter into an argument how is it to be discussed? When I cite data and it is ignored how is that a debate? If I use personal experiences that is dismissed as well so of course the conversation goes nowhere.

Okay - I'll give my take on the debate if you insist.

mdovell says

If it is useless then why would it be required for jobs then? Obviously if a job requires a degree in lieu of experience (granted on a given ratio that isn’t 1:1) then there is value.

Because everyone has a wrong idea of what a college degree really means. Understand that I don't think all college degrees are worthless.

Employers are impressed & think somehow a person with a degree is more skillful than someone who is self-taught, has experience & has done their application.

Self-education is the best education because it comes from inner motivation & not because you are feared into studying something because of authority & tyrants.

People don't read textbooks because they want too - it's because they are pressured by others into studying it or otherwise something "terrible" will happen to them. It's a form of following the orders and desires of others instead of using your own brain.

Education is something a person must do themselves. Of course - teachers and mentors are sometimes necessary but the motivation must come from within. Otherwise the motivation is not really motivation - it's weakness by following other people's own wishes of what you are cleverly disguised as motivation.

mdovell says

So you would want to see a doctor that never went to med school or a lawyer that never passed a bar exam?

I never said a doctor shouldn't go to medical school or a lawyer shouldn't take the bar exam.

But to answer your question - Medical school is flawed to begin with anyway. It's curriculum is heavily controlled by the pharmaceutical companies which are largely dependent on the petroleum industry. (pharmaceuticals are mostly if not completely synthesized from petroleum by-products these days )

Who largely controls the petroleum industry? The Rockefellers and yes they still control that industry despite the fact that they try to show that they don't.

The American Medical Association main goal is to limit they amount of doctors regardless of whether they are competent in order to artificially drive up the prices of medical care.

Mcat exams and applications are mainly looking for people who are going to only further establish and promote the pharmaceutical companies. If you give them the impression that you want to be a doctor because you want help people, cure diseases and care for sick people - they will take your application and throw it right into the trash.

More information: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LADA-zZhTGc&feature=channel_video_title

Western doctors and medicine is killing people. Study some work by Deepak Chopra, MD - he has seen first hand the flaws of western medicine.

The Federal Drug administration's main goal is to suppress cures and only approve drugs that treat the symptoms of a condition - not the condition itself. Many drugs that are approved have very little testing and many dangerous drugs are continually being approved. (Read some books with credible sources exposing the FDA truth.)

Understand that I am not against pharmaceuticals - some of them will actually cure you and fix up a health condition permanently - but those medications are hardly ever approved for use and/or production by the FDA. And those medications idiot "doctors" hardly ever prescribe. Most "doctors" are idiots to begin with - they prescribe dangerous medications which will not cure the problem - only the symptoms while at the same-time creating another health condition in the body. And lot of the times either give an insufficient dose or too much dose.

In other words, whether someone has a medical degree is useless in determining how competent & fit they are to be a doctor. Physician assistants have 90% of the knowledge medical degree holders.

In fact, many doctors just sign off the diagnosis of a physician assistant - while not making the diagnosis themselves or listening to the patients condition or analyzing the condition.

Many patients also complain about how doctors never listen, arrogant, and have a know-it-all attitude. Doctors spend very little listening and trying to analyze the patients condition. Most of them are money hungry clowns trying to quickly get to as many patients as possible while spend as little time as possible with them.

Doctors also often have a conflict of interest due to monetary incentives they are given by pharmaceutical companies and medical lab companies. (Expensive dinners, vacations and pressurization by the companies to push their services & products on to patients with a commission incentive.)

I had a doctor once prescribe me a wrong drug for stomach problems which would actually make the problems worse. He only prescribed it because he wanted to make money and that medication was going to make the stomach problems worse. Scumbag.

So to really answer your question - there are plenty of people who don't hold medical degrees but are many times more competent than those overpaid retarded greedy yuppies.

About Attorneys; Did I ever say in this thread to not pass your state required license exams - whether it's for practicing a law or driving a car? And passing bar examinations doesn't mean they are a good attorney but I will agree with you that it does offer a guarantee that the attorney practicing won't be someone who has a very low-level of ability. And by the way - college in some states is not needed to become an attorney. You can apprentice under a attorney and take the bar exam from his approval. Many people frown at this way to become attorney - when actually this is how attorneys were all trained in the old days and they were trained damn good.

I think you need to understand that I am emphasizing the validness of college curriculum in many degrees and the way society defines "education" and what constitutes one in reality. I am not arguing that not getting a medical degree will make it possible for you to become practicing doctor without running into trouble with the law.

mdovell says

Experience is good I won’t put it down but if someone has experience then that means they should be able to pass the tests and do classwork then. If they can’t then what did they learn from their experience?

Your argument contains an oxymoron. Experience teaches you completely different curriculum than contemplating. Not that contemplating isn't valuable but often contemplating teaches you misinformation or information that has no application or use. Do you understand now, why your question is the wrong thing to ask?

mdovell says

How can you quantify experience without a given metric? That is how can you prove the time on the job is with the time that is put into place. You have to have a given standard, a benchmark, a level to prove a value.

how can you quantify application that a degree teaches you? If you really want an answer instead of a question, here it is; You can't tell how competent, valuable and skillful someone is until they start working and you judge their results.

That is how you can prove yourself on the job. And you are right - there should be a given standard and having the person go through a testing period as work they are hired for will determine whether they meet that standard.

"It doesn't matter to me if a man is from Harvard or Sing Sing. We hire the man, not his history."
-Henry Ford, Automobile Tycoon.

mdovell says

I am not saying it must be a degree. It can be a industry certification, a competency test an exam etc.

The government should only require a standard test for lines of work where it would be dangerous or disastrous without the person understanding a certain type of knowledge and certain information about it.

Barbers for example shouldn't be cutting hair unless they are taught up to a acceptable standard.

Otherwise - let the market of employment be a free market without oppressing others who may just as much deserve the same job if not in some cases more than the person with a piece of paper making claims about this person being superior.

And if training is needed - companies should be providing it through apprenticeships since they know more about their business and it's required knowledge to run it rather than some money hungry private organization which has never stepped foot in the business- which many jobs had done in the past.

It's a disservice to both the companies and employees.

mdovell says

If it doesn’t teach you anything then why do employers have it as a requirement?

A docile sheep is a better slave. Mike Tyson type aggressive employees are too ambitious, smart and have more leadership capability; we don't want those. We want non-thinking robots.

That's what public education and college is all about. It was never about "education" in the sense people believe and this is also why the majority of the population are uneducated because they don't understand the meaning of "education".

mdovell says

Do you honestly think that employers will teach skills that have a value to a competitor fully knowing that would make them more apt to leave to that competitor?

This question automatically without a doubt shows me that you know nothing about big business.

Why are CEOs of banks given such huge bonuses even they did such a terrible job? Why are CEOs of banks who are fired still given such a huge bonus? (So the CEO doesn't share trade secrets.)

Besides CEOs, any company which has it's middle management & low-level employees leaving to it's competitors - doesn't deserve to be a company. It deserves to be bankrupt. Competition is a sin.

mdovell says

In Mass under the quinn bill police get a 10% boost in pay with an associates, bachelors and masters degree. Why? Because you get a more professional police force with less civil rights complaints. Public servants can get sued for quite a bit of money if they screw up with peoples rights.

Just because someone gets a higher pay doesn't mean they deserve that pay and it doesn't always mean that giving them a higher pay is the wise thing to do. The US is going into a police state. The government doesn't care about your rights and the constitution has been disregarded in countless examples.

Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWeF6lwg4aY

Example: IRS income tax - it is unconstitutional and no law exists for you to pay this tax.

mdovell says

The median debt for a four year degree at a public school is less than 25K

According to fabricated data.
mdovell says

“And by the way, ivy league schools are the worst; Grade inflation and brainwashing graduates into thinking they are so special than the rest of others.”

Well the argument of the thread is if it pays off and I would say it does.

And this is the exact problem with majority of employees. It's from this mentality that we have entitled idiots who don't deserve a higher pay but get it. This is why we have businesses who are robbed by labor unions with their never ending benefits and retirement plans.

That's why so many local counties across the country are spending so much money & bleeding red ink on the books. School unions are also the reason for such high property taxes.

Learn to earn your salary not get it.

mdovell says

I am not attempting to be rude but when someone interjects conspiracy banter into an argument how is it to be discussed?

http://rockefeller.senate.gov/ Politics controlled by rockefellers

http://ihouse.berkeley.edu/a/gala2006/index.html "Education" controlled with an agenda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClqUcScwnn8 David Rockefeller Wants to Murder People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URH9NuO4KTc David Rockefeller Confronted in Interview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9xzXUQLuY Jay Rockefeller Wants to Shut Down Internet

Go read the book "The Creature on jekyll island" - plenty of information which you can easily verify.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcvo5QL-SNw Rothschilds Promoting Feminism (They are great partners with Rockefellers)

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions.

Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty and I am proud of it."
- David Rockefeller, from his autobiography “Memoirs”

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
-Thomas Jefferson

I gave you some very interesting links to get you to open your mind. Go do some research on your own. Don't expect me to think for you or hand me information to you - I'm not a college Professor who will baby you. Look into the executive order that John F. Kennedy gave before being assassinated; It was about ending the Federal Reserve and restoring the issuance of currency to the people. Look into Abraham Lincoln. And look into Andrew Jackson as he ended a central bank while having several assassination attempts.

And please learn the definition of conspiracy before trying to use it as an insult, because your insult makes no sense or point. But I think it's interesting that the people who don't use their brains - try to insult people who try to warn them and get them to wake up - as "conspiracy" informers...

The insult makes no sense but I think it truly shows how the sheep are passionate about not questioning their tyrants in charge. The international elite laugh at people like you because they consider the majority of americans to be complete idiots. And sometimes I really don't doubt their attitude.

The problem with me debating with someone like you is that we are not on the same intellectual capacity but more importantly the difference is too great. This results the debate into stupidity being the discussion and topics pertaining to idiocy.

But anyway - I gave you my take since you asked.

-Bye