patrick.net

I can't really post the WSJ article here without risking a copyright violation for this blog. I don't want to do anything that could jeapordize this awesome resource. Here's problaby the most useful statement for folks here from the entire article...

--
Another tactic: If you live in a frothy housing market and expect to move within a year or so, it may be worthwhile to consider selling now and renting for a few months. Last year Dean Baker, a Washington economist who is bearish on U.S. real-estate prices, decided to take profits on the
two-bedroom condominium he and his wife owned in Washington's Adams Morgan neighborhood. Having bought the condo for about $160,000 in 1997, Mr. Baker says, they sold it for nearly $450,000 in May 2004. The couple now live in an apartment nearby, costing $2,250 a month in rent.
Since they sold, Mr. Baker concedes, the market value of his old condo probably has gone up even further. But he says he is happy with his decision. "Realistically," he says, "you're not going to be able to pick the exact top" of the market.

--source:
September 17, 2005
HOME ECONOMICS
New Tools to Hedge Your Home
Exotic Investment Products Target Anxious Owners Eager to Lock In Their Gains
By JAMES R. HAGERTY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 17, 2005; Page B1

KurtS’s numbers are not cumulative to a 32+% decline but hey, if it makes you happy, go with it!

I agree that the number did not show 32+% decline. What do you mean by "if it makes you happy, go with it"?

Mr. and Mrs. Baker, barring any other unstated need for selling, made a serious financial mistake as they are now paying substantially more to rent than they did to own, and the cost to buy back into that market at comparable prices will require a crash ala 1929.

Well, unless they moved into a much better 225apartment... 450K versus 2250 rent does not indicate a bubble to me.

...and the cost to buy back into that market at comparable prices will require a crash ala 1929...

So it takes a 1929 crash to return prices to May 2004 level?

KurtS’s numbers are not cumulative to a 32+% decline but hey, if it makes you happy, go with it

My calculation was correct, but not my assumption that those decreases were from quarter-to-quarter, vs. Y-to-Y. I already noted that, strike it from the record.

Marin Co rats! Finally the So Cal desert and Marin Co have something in common. Can we count this as an intangible? We had a major rat population explosion here in the wasteland too after the big winter rains. I was forced to become a reluctant expert in rat hunting and disinfecting. (Um, disinfecting the screened patio, not the rats.) Aside from the ick factor, it was actually kind of funny to listen to prissy middle class women whining about their rat infestations.

Marin Co rats!

My cats would love Marin county.

If it makes one happy to believe that the BA market has recently and is soon facing a decline of 32+%, go with it.

If it makes you happy to believe that we would delude ourselves with false interpretations, go with it. ;)

It is interesting that many people are not aware of the micro-weather in the BA. I have settled in South Bay ever since I moved to BA and simply assumed that everywhere else was just the same.

However, whenever we visit our friends in the city, we just notice this big gush of fog cluttering over the mountains whenever we get to Daly City on 280. Throughout my hundreds of drives up north, I have never seen once Daly City with sunshine. Another persistently foggy place is Half Moon Bay, we used to go there quite often, again, never saw it bathed in sun. SF is nice in the morning, but the rain and cloud start to settle in at around 2pm in the afternoon.

Even up on the peninsula, areas around Belmont, San Mateo seem to quite cold compared to down here. It is pretty amazing that there is such a drastic weather difference just 20 miles apart. We fancy some mountain living, but haven't looked into what the weather is like up there. Perhaps when the downturn comes, we may go pick up a cabin in the Santa Cruz Mtns.

Usually a bubble burst starts in the marginal areas. I think Santa Cruz Mtns may qualify for this, because buying a primary residence up there for almost a $million is quite a stretch for many families, most people don't want to deal with septic tanks, propane gas, blocked roads in the winter season, etc.. Lately we've been driving around there for scoping out our ideal cabin for post-bubble consideration, the number of listings went up drastically in the last couple of months. We are talking about marginal communities with several hundred houses up there, but you can easily see 30% of the houses on a street up for sale. I presume quite a % of owners have a primary residence elsewhere, that is a sign of the market topping off.

I have also been tracking a few homes up there, lately, half of them were relisted for around $100,000 reduction (on a price tag of 700K-1M), and most of them have been sitting for longer than 5 months now.

A 2 topping large pizza and 3 pitchers of beer at Lanesplitters in Berkeley will set you back 90 bones including tip.

That's just criminal. I'd move too.
I told my cat about the Marin rats, he wants to move to Marin. (Marin rats....... sounds like the name of a band)

A 2 topping large pizza and 3 pitchers of beer at Lanesplitters in Berkeley will set you back 90 bones including tip.

What 2 toppings? Beluga 000 and lobster? That is crazy!

I would not read too much into this line by Mr. Right. This is just Mr. Right’s somewhat quirky/obtuse/laid back sense of humor in action. Uh….I think.

I know... I like Mr.Right. :)

Nope, standard pepperoni and sausage.

Must be unicorn sausage then...

Well, in Las Vegas, we were ordering some tea... the waiter was nice enough to tell us the price - $25 a pot!

Wow, lots of playmates for my cats in Marin, now the intangibles start to make sense to me!

FYI, you can buy housing in real nice parts of decatur for $60-$70/sq.

In Kah-lee-fornia construction alone will cost $150+/sf.

The nominal value of realty in BA won't go down 32% cumulative. If that happens, our country's financial system will be in big trouble. Hence comes in the government and money printing. Therefore, the nominal value of homes will probably drop around 15-25% to the most, while USD takes a big hit. But that is the only way to inflate our banks out of bankruptcy.

That said, it is plausible that some quite undesirable neighborhoods that have been lifted up by the overall RE bubble may go down 50%, in nominal value. But I wonder if you dare to pick up some properties there after the bubble bursts.

All it is is a socialist transfer of wealth from shareholders to employees who are getting a lucky deal and earning much more than they would command in a sane market. A market is never sane when its participants think the money is growing on trees.

Storry Stanman, everything you dislike is not "socialist." it is a transfer of wealth from VCs to founders and well understood by everyone involved. Big Bad Ole' Gubmint ain't got nothing to do with it.

I joined my current company pre-IPO and got a fair chunk of stock. Not enough to retire on, but enough that I have a downpayment for a bigger house, if I wanted. I would have not taken this job without the stock options, since I could have gotten a bigger salary elsewhere.

And I have to admit, doing this at a different company during the dot com boom got me my downpayment on my first house. I know I have been the preacher of "save 10% of your income for five years" but the truth is, I had very little saved before I sold my set of options in 1999. My fiancee, on the other hand, saved up her half of the downpayment on a waitresses salary, while going to graduate school. So at least someone I know has done it.

And now that I live with her, I save like mad. Funny how that works. :-D

Oh, by the way, my TOL and MTH puts are up 25% and 50% today. I guess the housing market did not like Greenspan's comments about interest rates.

If these puts work out the way I am expecting them to (at least 100% up) I will take any of you who wish to show up out for sushi, that's a promise. I would never have actually gotten off my tushie and applied for a level 2 trading agreement with E*Trade if it hadn't been for the steady barrage of housing bubble related information you all provided me with.

"500k blow my mind and I think what the hell are people thinking???"

More like what are they smoking. But seriously, 500K doesn't even do it in anyplace I'd want to live in the Bay Area. Prices keep edging closer to a million for a halfway decent single family house. And if you're talking a fixer with character, well, that's still in the same price range.

It's hard to fathom the mentality of spending that much until you're in the midst of a bunch of people who actually are. I have to give props to those of you who do live in desirable areas and have managed to resist the herd mentality of buy-buy-buy-real-estate-never-goes-down-you're-going-to-be-priced-out-forever. Because when we visit our family and friends who all think we should buy, I find myself starting to think crazy thoughts like, "Well, I guess if we can swing the 4000K per month payments, we might be able to own a house here..." And then we have to get the hell out of there.

I was talking to one of the parents at my daughter's school and told him I was renting and he totally agreed that it made sense in this market. He told me that he and his wife tried to find a house with some property because they have 4 kids and would like to have a place for them to play. He said they couldn't find anything they could afford within a 50 mi radius, and I believe him. They are going to Oregon this week to look at homes.

What bugs me about family/friends who do the buy buy buy mantra is that they really don't understand what it's like right now. All my family bought years ago and have no idea what homes cost these days. And when you tell them they say "well, why don't you just get an interest only loan.... blah blah blah." It's so hard to gat across to them that I don't want to buy some teeny tiny shack and then be house poor because I had to pay a fortune for it. I can literally get twice the house if I rent.

Did you guys read this article from Reuters about how borrowing and adding to the U.S. debt for Katrina reconstruction is likely to make interest rates go up?
http://tinyurl.com/76wqf

Very interesting.

It’s hard to fathom the mentality of spending that much until you’re in the midst of a bunch of people who actually are. I have to give props to those of you who do live in desirable areas and have managed to resist the herd mentality of buy-buy-buy-real-estate-never-goes-down-you’re-going-to-be-priced-out-forever.

Yeah--I hear this constantly. Of course, it's never actually backed up with anything other than "just look at how prices have gone up". Then I drag out my research, comments by Schiller, The Economist and others: blank stares, quick change of subject.
Sometimes I feel like Noah, giving out "bad weather forecasts" LOL.

"A 2 topping large pizza and 3 pitchers of beer at Lanesplitters in Berkeley will set you back 90 bones including tip."

Man either I'm getting old, inflation is getting ridiculous, or both.

Sometimes I feel like Noah, giving out “bad weather forecasts” LOL.

Awesome line! Hilarious.

Maybe it includes some bowling.

Sometimes I feel like Noah, giving out “bad weather forecasts” LOL.

Do you guys think Noah includes "(Not weather advice)" in his forecasts?

"Sometimes I feel like Noah, giving out “bad weather forecasts” "

LOL!

And regarding SurferX's bowling alley bill, I totally believe it. We bought enough pizza in San Mateo recently to feed 4 adults and 3 kids, and the bill was between $60 and 70. I was stunned. Granted, it was "gourmet" pizza, but still. Pizza!

Just spotted a great posting on craigslist.
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/apa/98794861.html
The poster is looking for a family to rent a house he hasn't bought yet. Once he has the renters lined up, he's going to buy the rental property. How tight do you have to be financially if you have to line up the renter before you buy?? Pretty funny.

"gourmet pizza"

What a scam.

It's like saying "elegant living in a double wide."

The poster is looking for a family to rent a house he hasn’t bought yet. Once he has the renters lined up, he’s going to buy the rental property. How tight do you have to be financially if you have to line up the renter before you buy?? Pretty funny.

LOL

Good luck finding anyone. Better luck for him if he cannot find anyone.

“gourmet pizza”

Gourmet soup line! Parking spaces for your designer shopping carts!

It’s like saying “elegant living in a double wide.”

Why are the posts getting cut off??

I was going to say if you go to Malibu you can get the "elegant double wide."

CONGRATS Everyone! Fed Raises rates, signaling the economy continues to be robust AND the 10-yr yield actually dips a bit, making mortgage rates cheaper! BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!

Well, if this squeezes out marginal buyers while keeping conventional fixed rate mortgage borrowers untouched, I am fine with it. I guess the market will be healthier once the marginal homedebtors are forced out of the game, perhaps rightfully.

Marina Prime, quick question, is a Russian Hill condo a good investment for someone with cash but is not too concerned about risks? What are the numbers (price/rent) like?

I love Russian Hill, and would buy. But, ONLY if i had a view of the Bay.

So how much is a 2/2 on Russian Hill with a view going for? Usually what is the rent and HOA?

This is for a friend's friend. Thanks.

Love the Columbia/Wharton piece also.

You should love this too:
http://tinyurl.com/7fpdq
Sure smells robust to me.

Prime Meridian wrote "CONGRATS Everyone! Fed Raises rates, signaling the economy continues to be robust"

Fed is raising rates because inflation is getting out of hand.

Please don’t feed the troll. I thought this asshole was banned, more banned, and then double banned?

X--you're right. Take the effort to dig up data that's blissfully ignored.
So, who's the joke really on?

Guess what Escaped from the District… if inflation is ‘getting out of hand’, then guess what happens to real asset appreciation?

If only inflation is a single variable...

Thanks for the info. Russian Hill is District 8, by the way.

Sorry this question is off topic, but I thought I would ask it anyway. If home prices remain flat for a certain time, is there a chance that this would cause prices to eventually fall?

This is a MIRAGE vs ILLUSION question (see glossary). If the market is as speculative as we have thought, sustained non-appreciation itself will be sufficient to trigger a crash.

MP,

This one appears to be under $1000/sf:

http://www.sfarmls.com/scripts/mgrqispi.dll?APPNAME=Sanfrancisco&PRGNAME=MLSPropertyDetail&ARGUMENTS=-N291205560,-N176638,-N,-A,-N408075

Please do not use as an example if it sells for 400K above asking. ;)

Or does it have problems?