patrick.net

It's just that out in the big world that is not part of your classroom there are lots of people that are not your students. You are not automatically the smartest person in the room by default -- and it seems like that fact really does not sit well with most teachers

Short on time here, but for the record, I could name at least a few regulars on this forum that I think are smarter than I. Also, I teach a range of classes, in my Calculus classes I generally feel like at least 1/4 of the class is smarter than me. Not in terms of what they know now, but in terms of IQ.

Even in remedial classes, with students who are terrible at Math, I don't generally feel like the smartest one in the room. Just the best at Mathematics. I am under those circumstances, extremely nonjudgemental. Actually that's the irony here, that you are calling me arrogant, when your biggest problem is how judgemental you are.

One thing about Mathematics is that it's humbling, that is eventually. Try reading some twentieth century Math (not you Bap), if you don't know what I mean. I may sound arrogant in my conversation with you, talking down to you, but it's only because of the way you paint yourself on this forum, to be such a fool.

But I am actually far less arrogant than you. You're the one who KNOWS that 95% of California teachers are incompetent. You're the one that has far fetched (extremely scary) supposed knowledge about how liberals have undermined our education system and our culture.

Your arrogance comes from blindly listening to holier than thou evil, in the name of good. This kind of "thinking" has been behind the worst atrocities and genocides the human race has experienced.

I know you're correct that my words are wasted, you're right about that.

109

simchaland 2011 Jul 19, 2:56am

Wow Bap33, you woke up cranky. I never attacked you personally. If you took offense maybe you should reread my posts on a day when you are in a better mood.

Fundamentalism is anything but normal. It's the extreme position in any religion by definition. Adherents don't need to think or use reason. They simply follow the dictates of their religious leaders without question. They use the most narrow lens to read sacred scripture only understanding the most surface and superficial meaning of the texts. That requires no reflection or thought.

Reason and critical thinking are incompatible with fundamentalism. If an adherent starts to question he or she is in danger of being shunned by their religious community. Magical thinking is required if one is to adhere to a fundamentalist position in any religion.

110

Bap33 2011 Jul 19, 4:46am

simchaland says

Reason and critical thinking are incompatible with fundamentalism

Sim, if those fundamentals are based on reason, and by most definitions reasons are based on critical thinking, then wouldn't that make your statement false? I am not being difficult, I am just pointing out that to those who believe "X" is a basic known fact of life, and they believe "X" is based on "reason", and they believe that "X" and it's "reason" were only reached after some serious "critical thinking", then they present a problem to your position ---- if "X" happens to be the belief in absolute right and absolute wrong, for example. Is that fundamental believe right or wrong in your opinion? For me it is simple, there is absolute right (good) and absolute wrong (evil) in the human experience. It's how we test a matter or action that we differ on I am sure.

I am not in a bad mood. Heck, I'm never in a bad mood. I appologies if I overstepped.

@marcus,
I am not part of any organized religion. do not be offended for me letting you be wrong in public.
I do not "know" 95% of todays teachers are "incompotent". If I did say that, I should not have. The results show there is a major problem. The costs associated with the Educational Monster shows a severe problem. Let me modify my position thusly: I feel the results vs expense of the Educational Monster that is headed-up by teachers - who over-see teachers - who are teachers, shows an OBVIOUS AWESOME problem - and my experience has been that 95% of teachers should not be allowed to interact with the children of others in private. Fair enough? Do note that 95% may have been incorrect, it may be much higher than that - just as it may be a tick lower. lol
Hang in there.
What personality type do you feel best endurs and overcomes adversity - conservative or liberal (general terms)?

111

Bap33 2011 Jul 19, 4:49am

liberals have undermined our education system and our culture.

not exactly liberals per se .... but that's the accepted term to use is general, so you are correct.

112 corntrollio 2011 Jul 19, 5:22am

simchaland says

If you have kids in school currently. Your best bet is to actually get involved in the school where your child attends. That way you actually meet the teachers, administrators, and the principal.

Btw, to simchaland's point, one of the most interesting programs is Geoffrey Canada's program in Harlem, which actually requires parents to be involved. I'm sure both sides have their criticisms -- e.g. it's too paternalistic, requires too much intervention, etc. But it really attacks the problems in education from a lot of good angles: getting parents involved, starting from a young age when you can still make a difference -- if you wait until even middle school you've waited too long, being more cost-effective, having parents realize that it's about making sure your kid has better opportunities and that you may not get a direct benefit to your own life, etc.

113

tatupu70 2011 Jul 19, 5:28am

What personality type do you feel best endurs and overcomes adversity - conservative or liberal (general terms)?

I know you directed this at Marcus, but I'll take a stab. In general, a liberal is open to change and a conservative resists change. So, I'd say someone who is adaptable and open to change will overcome adversity better than someone who is not.

114 MattBayArea 2011 Jul 19, 6:00am

Sim, if those fundamentals are based on reason, and by most definitions reasons are based on critical thinking, then wouldn't that make your statement false?

He brings up a good point. When people say 'Fundamentalist' we all think of those crazy religious groups ... but what about the 'reason' fundamentalists who espouse the fundamental principles of reason and critical thinking and the open dissemination and contemplation of ideas?

You know, fundamentalist atheists!

On a side note, don't ever argue with me. I was BORN to be right. Since you lack this innate quality (you are prone to delusion, as your belief in an invisible, all powerful creator who just happens to leave ABSOLUTELY no hard proof of his/her own existence simply to ... get this .... test your faith in his existence .... proves) you cannot help but lose (and fail to realize it). Sorry - just focus on finding what you were born to do and stick to that.

115

Bap33 2011 Jul 19, 7:50am

tatupu70 says

In general, a liberal is open to change and a conservative resists change. So, I'd say someone who is adaptable and open to change will overcome adversity better than someone who is not.

I see where you are going with your answer, but I was thinking more along the lines or personality types, and in that regard I think a liberal is a person who has no pre-set boundries for acceptable behavior where a conservative does.

Your point is correct only when things are as they should be. Meaning, a conservative does not want change when the situation is as it should be, but when things are wrong then a conservative wants things changed back to correct. Right now I am very much a conservative and I am very much wanting BIG CHANGES in America. Same for a liberal. If things are as they feel they should be, then they do not want change, that would make them a conservative in your example. So, maybe those two lables are not the best choice for my question. (?)

Should we pick something specific, like behavior or bill paying or character or values to get an idea of what we mean by these lables?

116 corntrollio 2011 Jul 19, 8:33am

I see where you are going with your answer, but I was thinking more along the lines or personality types, and in that regard I think a liberal is a person who has no pre-set boundries for acceptable behavior where a conservative does.

Okay, you lost all credibility with this. This prejudges a liberal as doing "unacceptable" things and makes no such judgment on a conservative. This is a ridiculous definition. tatupu70 gave the traditional/classical definition for liberal vs. conservative (change vs. not), and you're basically saying that only conservatives can be "correct," which is silly.

In addition, you're prejudging your personal attitude as "correct," and no one else can possibly be correct, which is not really a way to have a productive discussion.

Moreover, your discussion is a complete waste of time. Why do people need to engage in all of this liberal/conservative nonsense stereotyping all the time anyway. If people had discussions about the topic instead of sniping about stereotypes, we'd have better discussions.

117

marcus 2011 Jul 19, 9:07am

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/

I am not part of any organized religion. do not be offended for me letting you be wrong in public.

You sound very much like a fundamentalist Christian.

About arrogance, I talk to you like I'm smarter than you. You talk like you are morally superior to me, indirectly because you are morally superior to all liberals.

So I think I'm smarter than you and you think your morally superior to me. Who's arrogant ?

Who's correct ?

As for your views on education, much of it comes from propaganda. Here is a quote that you have read from me before. From link below (but I don't expect you to glean anything from this):

The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nationâ€™s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own childâ€™s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

I"m arrogant, but my guess is you won;t read this or consider it.

The truth is we need to improve. But it's also true that everyone has to go to school in this country. In poor neighborhoods, it turns out that a majority don't want to be there, and or, have poor nutrition, many distractions, possibly severely dysfunctional families, etc. So the challenges to teachers are immense. Especially once the children are socially promoted a few times. Can you imagine teaching 9th grade math to a kid who is at the 5th grade level and has totally given up on school, but has to be there ?

I went to great public schools and now teach at a great public school. Every year we have graduates that get in to our countries very best colleges. I'm proud of my school and the work I do, but sometimes I fail and I'm always trying to do better.

What personality type do you feel best endurs and overcomes adversity - conservative or liberal (general terms)?

For one thing I am politically a liberal in some ways, but actually a conservative, just because of my age. I have always done challenging and stressful work (didn't teach until my forties). And many of my classes present plenty of adversity.

Todays republicans are no longer conservative. The best way to describe them is that they are rich and they represent the rich. Most rich republicans did not become rich by overcoming adversity.

118

Bap33 2011 Jul 19, 9:42am

@corn,
huh? Is that really what you read in my post? wow. My writing skills really suck.

@marcus,
1) The CALIFORNIA EDUCATION MONSTER MACHINE is BAD/EVIL/BROKEN in my opinion.
2) I can't find an answer to my question in your response, but the point of what exaxctly is a liberal or conservative type was brought up and that is a pretty good question too.

119

Bap33 2011 Jul 19, 9:44am

About arrogance, I talk to you like I'm smarter than you. You talk like you are morally superior to me, indirectly because you are morally superior to all liberals.

don't be silly. take the knife from your own throat and place it in my back where you had it earlier.

120 corntrollio 2011 Jul 19, 10:04am

@corn,
huh? Is that really what you read in my post? wow. My writing skills really suck.

corntrollio says

in that regard I think a liberal is a person who has no pre-set boundries for acceptable behavior where a conservative does.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but that sounds like a very judgmental answer for liberal vs. conservative.

Meaning, a conservative does not want change when the situation is as it should be, but when things are wrong then a conservative wants things changed back to correct.

We call that a pragmatist. Has nothing to do with liberal or conservative.

Conservative has been given a different meaning by popular media and by politicians, just like liberal. But this isn't 1969, so we should probably get past that crap and stop using inaccurate labels and instead discuss real issues. Someone who leads with "liberals think..." or "conservatives think..." is probably not going to have anything interesting to say. The whole idea is flawed anyway, since politics are better mapped on two spectra: http://www.politicalcompass.org/

121

Bap33 2011 Jul 19, 12:09pm

corntrollio says

in that regard I think a liberal is a person who has no pre-set boundries for acceptable behavior where a conservative does.
Maybe I'm misreading you, but that sounds like a very judgmental answer for liberal vs. conservative.

no no no ... pre-set acceptable behavior .. the "acceptable" is not as in legal or moral, but acceptable meaning something closer to "expected" or "pleasing" or "comfortable" or maybe something like "normal" to a person. I see what you were reading, but I was not intending that.

122

simchaland 2011 Jul 19, 2:14pm

Just so we all have the actual definition of Fundamentalism from Merriam-Webster:

1.: a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs

2: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

All bolds are mine.

As you can see, reason, critical thinking, etc. aren't mentioned at all. Literal interpretations require no reason or critical thinking. And, beliefs aren't facts... That's magical thinking.

I rest my case.

123

marcus 2011 Jul 19, 2:31pm

http://toped.svefoundation.org/2011/01/12/now-43rd-in-per-student-spending/

The CALIFORNIA EDUCATION MONSTER MACHINE is BAD/EVIL/BROKEN in my opinion.

How do you breathe when your head is in that particular location ?

So 42 of the 50 states spend more per student than California.

This is about prop 13. Instead of paying higher real estate taxes in California, we just pay more for Real Estate. That's pretty fucked up.

By the way, one thing I am working on right now is teaching to the State standardized tests better than I ever have before. That will certainly make it appear that I am doing a better job.

124

Truthplease 2011 Jul 19, 9:08pm

For one thing I am politically a liberal in some ways, but actually a conservative, just because of my age. I have always done challenging and stressful work (didn't teach until my forties). And many of my classes present plenty of adversity.

Marcus, I am leaving my well paying job in the military at near 40 years old to jump into the education system. I have been a great teacher/mentor in the military and really enjoy it. Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

125

elliemae 2011 Jul 19, 11:57pm

I'm still trying wrap my head around the theory of conserativism and liberalism being personality traits.

don't be silly. take the knife from your own throat and place it in my back where you had it earlier.

I tip my hat to that one.

126

marcus 2011 Jul 20, 12:22am

Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

I would suggest that you maybe find a good job, before leaving your current one, for starters. It's a very tough time to be starting in teaching, because there have been a lot of lay offs recently. You are going to be competing with experienced people out there, that is in your job search.

Do you have ideas of age and subject you want to teach ?

Certain ages are much more difficult than others. Grades 7 - 9 are particularly difficult in my opinion.

127

Bap33 2011 Jul 20, 12:54am

simchaland says

to a set of basic principles

dude, cmon now .. "basic principles" can't bother you THAT much. Just remove the bold that you added and put it on the "basic principles" part and then you may see sumthin different.

@ellie,
I can't be sure that I even approached that division right. Is it personality trait, or a function of deep thought, or just pre-wired DNA, or an expression of life experience, or all of the above, or were the smart ones all made leftists and the cavemanish ones all made rightists? lol. It would seem that there are many similar personality traits and philosophy shared by those that populate each "side", and only the middle-road types cross over. Heck, depending on the subject matter, many folks change sides. I dunno.

@marcus,
my personal opinion should not result in a personal attack from Lord Teacher AllMighty. People that attack personally when faced with a differing opinion should be ashamed, in my opinion. That shows a lack of intellect, that results in a lack of ideas, that results in frustration, that results in fear, that results in hate, that results in anger, that results in childlike name calling instead of mature retort. People should discuss issues with respect, and I guess the saying is true ... "those that can - do (ellie, sim, many others), and those that can't - teach (you)."

128

marcus 2011 Jul 20, 12:59am

Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

If you re thinking of high school, it is true as Bap mentioned that a degree in the subject you are teaching is often required. This does not nearly guarantee proficiency as a teacher, and there aren't any teachers that think this alone is sufficient to guarantee their proficiency(contrary to one of Baps many silly assertions above). But it's a reasonable place to start, that is requiring proof that the person knows the subject, even beyond the level that they will be teaching.

129

marcus 2011 Jul 20, 1:19am

People that attack personally when faced with a differing opinion should be ashamed

That shows a lack of intellect

those that can - do (ellie, sim, many others), and those that can't - teach (you)."

Practicing what you preach I see. You could have at least waited until another post to avoid being such a hypocrite.

Oops,. I did it again. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

When you express "opinions" like the following you might want to expect a reaction (as if you didn't).

I disagree. The education system is absurd and is only a goldenchild of the left becasue it gave them direct access to the youth to force upon them their leftist anti-God/American/Freedom queer way of thinking.

You have made it clear that people like me, and my beliefs are responsible for for the decline of of our culture. And you said in so many words that 95% of Califonia teachers are incompetent. Later you sort of took it back, before saying that really it might be more than 95%.

(I don't really think the term "passive aggressive" applies. This is aggressive. I'm not going to apologize for finding you to be narrow minded, and racist ("invaders"), and in your own not so subtle way, an asshole.)

Why is my being upfront about that any more personal than my quotes from you here ?

These are not statements that lead to adult conversation. I retract and apologize for nothing I have said.

130

FortWayne 2011 Jul 20, 1:21am

Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

Do you really want to join the morally corrupt and bankrupt system? All you'll be is a sacrificial lamb for when the union goons try to harass the society for more kickbacks by laying off all the new teachers.

That train is never late. These crony corrupt goons just keep on skimming millions of taxpayer dollars. And when its time to pay the bill because the system is going bankrupt they just lay off the new teachers. It's really a pathetic system.

131

marcus 2011 Jul 20, 1:38am

EMan says

These crony corrupt goons just keep on skimming millions of taxpayer dollars

This is made up bs that Chris has never detailed. I am a teacher and I honestly honestly have no idea even what he is saying. Are there high level union guys that are siphoning off big money ? OR is it our awesome huge salaries that are ripping off the tax payer?

AM talk radio propaganda. Chris doesn't even know what he means. Just An angry cliche that sounds like it might mean something ? wtf ?

EMan says

All you'll be is a sacrificial lamb for when the union goons try to harass the society for more kickbacks by laying off all the new teachers.

Translation: If we teachers (some of whom, you know have families and mortgages etc), if we teachers don't insist that our paycuts are increased enough to prevent layoffs, then it is we who are actually laying off those new teachers ? Wow.

I believe that Chris is a liar about the big money he makes and taxes he pays. Because anyone who was truly making a decent living would not rail against teachers in this way.

132

FortWayne 2011 Jul 20, 2:28am

You can verbally defend your union all you want. Robert Rizo defended his establishment too. It will all catch up eventually.

Few month ago it was the city of Bell, today its the city of Montebello, sooner or later you guys will be under the hammer too. Carma has a way of catching up with fraudsters.

133

HousingWatcher 2011 Jul 20, 2:30am

The Bell emloyees were NOT in unions. Nor were they teachers.

134

FortWayne 2011 Jul 20, 2:41am

HousingWatcher says

The Bell emloyees were NOT in unions. Nor were they teachers.

top government officials who had not enough public oversight.

135

zzyzzx 2011 Jul 20, 2:47am

OR is it our awesome huge salaries that are ripping off the tax payer?

It's the awesone teacher pensions, health benefits, and small class sizes that are ripping off the taxpayers. Tha salary's really not so much.

136

HousingWatcher 2011 Jul 20, 2:51am

Small class sizes? Really? I guess you have not been reading the statistics lately.

137

Truthplease 2011 Jul 20, 4:47am

I would suggest that you maybe find a good job, before leaving your current one, for starters. It's a very tough time to be starting in teaching, because there have been a lot of lay offs recently. You are going to be competing with experienced people out there, that is in your job search.

Yep, understand Marcus and thanks for the advice. Luckily, I have supported my wife while she has finished her School Psychology degree and finalizes licensing. So, this happens quickly or slowly depending on when she can find employment. We understand that education is usually the first cut in a fiscally constrained environment. Getting her practicum and internship proved exceedingly difficult this last year due to massive budget cuts in education.

We have been very frugal with our money, so we can make it quite a while without a paycheck. I am looking at job satisfaction and want to join another profession. I see teachers as professionals in their area of expertise. I have some concern if teachers are truly treated like professionals anymore. I am using the word professional in the truest sense. It would bother me if I started this profession and was not treated as a professional in a field of study. If that is true, then we really know where the problem lies in the education system.

I was looking at teaching H.S. Math or Science. My BA is in Liberal Arts with a Certificate in Math and a Certificate in Natural Sciences. My 18 year profession is Environmental Sciences and these Praxis II tests are easy areas for me; Biology and General Science, Earth and Space Science, Environmental Education, and General Science. I would have to refresh on Calculus for the Mathematics test. Praxis 1 does not look difficult.

I also have military training in fundamental instructional techniques, curriculum development, tests and measures, and leadership (obvious).

138

Bap33 2011 Jul 20, 5:29am

(I don't really think the term "passive aggressive" applies. This is aggressive. I'm not going to apologize for finding you to be narrow minded, and racist ("invaders"), and in your own not so subtle way, an asshole.)

lmao .. you are tooo much my angry little friend. Rise above the fear and anger, you can do it! One question though, exactly what race do you connect to "invader"? I only ask because I am far from a racists, or sexist, or anythingist ... keeping track of those things is more of a liberal minded thing, in my opinion.

And since you refuse to not call names; I know you are, but what am I?