patrick.net

Yes. It's a huge factor for me.

Tude says

Doesn't the total cost of ownership matter above and beyond just the payment?

Yes, everything matters. Insurance matters, taxes matter, maintenance matters, utilities matter, etc. A lot of people don't consider total cost of ownership, and you are smart to do so. Too many people focus on "what's my monthly payment?"

By the way, while some people think of California as environmental hell because of auto emissions, California actually has lower energy per capita usage than many other states because of the generally temperate climate in the heavily populated areas, and the fact that populated areas are dense. California is also one of the few (if not the only) state to reduce per capita energy usage since the 60s, largely because the state is quite aggressive on efficiency. Overall, California is #5 on lowest energy usage per capita, after MA, HI, RI, and NY: http://www.usnews.com/news/slideshows/the-10-states-that-use-the-least-energy-per-capita/

Los Angeles uses less energy per capita than many other US cities, largely because much of the country requires significant energy use for heating, and a large part of the rest of the country uses significant energy for air conditioning. This is despite the fact that California has huge amounts of farm land, large amounts of industry, and a good share of oil/oil refining, all of which can be energy-intensive.

Tude says

We live in 1000sf in a nearly perfect micro-climate were we have no air conditioning, and rarely use the heater.
But I hear so many people shopping only talking about buying as much as they can afford, and as big as they can get, in areas with high taxes and high energy costs, and I scratch my head.

Same o' here. Dont use heater and air cond. The gas line to the fireplace was capped many years ago when I bought my place. Dont need it.

You are definitely smart to consider energy usage as an important factor in buying a house. I believe that throwing money on heating and cooling either due to living in too large a space or due to old construction is on par with paying HOA fees - in effect useless.
I live in a drafty old house with no insulation - the summers are OK because we are at work during day time and do not need air cond, but the winters are brutal even here in NorCal because temps do fall into the 40s and 30s. So, heating in winter is a killer for us and I dread the PG&E bills in those months. In my next home, I will ensure that the insulation is better and that there is more energy efficiency because as I get older, the cost of energy is going to increase and the necessity to heat and cool my home is going to increase as well.

Absolutely! For me it's more about the house, and not the micro-climate (Denver doesn't have the same SF->WC temperature shift...unless you go up into the mountains)...but I do consider it...and it's one reason that I would shy away from a larger house even if I could afford it.

Hell, I considered energy usage when I bought a chest freezer (about $2/month to operate)...One of the best purchase I have made:
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/appliances/refrigerators-freezers/ge/7-0-cu-ft-chest-freezer-25017.html

I don't know if I would use the energy savings to justify not "strategically defaulting", though...no one says you have to move to WC if you walk from your current place... (of course, $25k underwater may not be enough to walk away from anyway).

I'm not interested in buying a house in Cali but the 4 bedroom house we rent was renovated in the early 2000's. The electric and gas bill are negligible. As in $35 for electric... and maybe $45 max for gas at the peak of winter when we use the heater.

swebb says

I don't know if I would use the energy savings to justify not "strategically defaulting", though...no one says you have to move to WC if you walk from your current place... (of course, $25k underwater may not be enough to walk away from anyway).

I was just saying in my case my carrying costs of the house are SO low, and we still pay less than it would cost to rent, that it's no a simple decision of being underwater=walk away as the right financial decision.

If we were to figure in all the upgrades and improvements we have made to the house we aren't underwater in the sense that we could walk away or sell, but then what we could get for less would need so much work we would be back where we started from!

We have been shopping for a second home to be our new primary home, and have not been able to find anything that would not significantly increase our carrying costs, many would actually double what we currently spend all considered (energy usage, increased taxes, increased payment, etc...)

Oh, and on the subject of heat, we put in a wood burning insert into the fireplace last year, it reduced our winter heating bills by nearly $50 a month, and is a great backup heat source for power outages.

edvard2 says

I'm not interested in buying a house in Cali but the 4 bedroom house we rent was renovated in the early 2000's. The electric and gas bill are negligible. As in $35 for electric... and maybe $45 max for gas at the peak of winter when we use the heater.

You are lucky too it seems. I have asked around all my friends and they all have PG&E bills in the $100-$300/month range. Some cannot use their heaters in winter for fear of enormous PG&E bills.

Oh wanted to add the worst are those with kids, I don't know why they do not train them, they just bitch and moan about them wasting water and energy but do nothing about it...

Yep,

I live in the Bay Area, don't have central AC. We do have a room air conditioner that we haven't used in the last three summers, and in the worst summer in recent memory (2006) probably only used it at most about 10-15 days for the whole summer. But that was five years ago. It's not even mounted in the window anymore.

The furnace is off from April to mid-November. And during Nov-March, it's only on for a few hours in the evenings M-F, longer on the weekend though.

I looked into getting a rooftop solar a few different times over the years. But even with some of the most expensive kilowatts in North America, it doesn't pencil out compared to our consumption.

It matters to me too, its why I'm interested in passive solar and HTM homes. They're few and far between though. Most "green" homes these days are just insulated somewhat better than normal (ie. R22-30 walls, "low-e" windows, etc.) and made air tight which is labor and cost intensive to maintain in the long run IMO.

Yes, definitely. I almost bought a house 2 years ago with a huge yard, huge pool, spa, tennis court, basket ball and a separate 2 car garage. After talking to the homeowner about the monthly maintenance cost, it costs $650-$1000 to maintain the whole thing!!! I don't think I can swallow that cost given that I don't play tennis, basketball or swimming every day.... Too much work and money to keep up with the Jones... I declined to make an offer.

Yah it matters. I sold my mid 70's ranch because of property taxes, and it needed a new roof, all new windows, doors, more insulation, just all kinds of stuff. I did not really need AC because the home was close to a swamp/forest and I had trees in my yard which are also cost $ to maintain. When I moved in I replaced the old furnace with the Trane XV90 and put a wood burner in. My energy bills were lower in the winter than the summer. Now I'm kind of sort of renting a small home built in the 50's, and the wind blows right through that thing, not to mention an old furnace, I keep the thermostat at like 60 in the winter.

i think you should include how much gas you need to put in your car as well. if you live in san francisco, you can get rid of your car and then you are hedged against gas price increases. if you live in the exburbs, you are very exposed to gas prices.

I do.

I looked into getting a rooftop solar a few different times over the years. But even with some of the most expensive kilowatts in North America, it doesn't pencil out compared to our consumption.
If you have $10k in a savings account (or CD, for that matter), you can probably get a better return on your money by putting it on your roof. With a minimal amount of hand waving I should be looking at a 3% return this year on my panels that were installed 9 months ago (electric bill slightly less than $40/ month before solar).
What really bugs me is folks who do live in energy intensive areas (read: hot in the summer, large AC bills) and complain about their bills. In those regions, solar definitely will pencil out (even with financing) as the marginal electric rates above base are very high. Where's ducky? Maybe he can give a testimony about his solar array.

tts says

Most "green" homes these days are just insulated somewhat better than normal (ie. R22-30 walls, "low-e" windows, etc.) and made air tight which is labor and cost intensive to maintain in the long run IMO.

Right, if you're talking about a PassivHaus or something like that, you fix this by adding ventilation that is heat-neutral for the most part. If not done properly, you get what cab said.

Something to note. You can get a wood stove with 75% plus efficiency, the days of burning 10 cords a winter are over with if you want them to be. Mine did not even smoke, maybe during starting up, or reloading, but otherwise just some steam coming out. I'm not counting on the propane or heating oil guy to show forever. My next place, if I ever have one, will also have an energy efficient wood stove. One piece of red oak wood, 21 inches long by 12 inches wide would heat my home overnight in the dead of winter.

I think 60% of the reason I pulled the trigger on my house, was the guy had the thermostat on 76, the air-conditioner was off, and it felt like 71 degrees inside. This was mid July when we were having 100+ weather. There's a digital thermostat that displays the temp, the Temp display confirmed that it was 76 degrees.

We have a white barrel tile roof, and ceramic tile through out.
We haven't spent over $180 a month on electricity yet. In contrast, the house we rented for 11 years, the AC was always on never turned off, and never cooled the house down completely. We averaged $320 ever month in the summer.

We still keep the AC at 76, and sometimes our feet get chilly and we have to kick it up to 77.

I've always been the type that could live under an AC vent 24/7 blazing at 67, and still not be cool enough in the Summer.

everything says

Now I'm kind of sort of renting a small home built in the 50's, and the wind blows right through that thing, not to mention an old furnace, I keep the thermostat at like 60 in the winter.

One of the problems w/ old homes from that era is lack of insulation. There's nothing in the walls, or on the ceiling, leaky wooden windows etc. The other problem is HVAC, which is not energy efficient and pretty weak. The energy cost can file up in the summer and winter.

seaside,

I see that you show "Alexandria, VA".

This has been a Bay-Area centric web site. The climate here is a whole lot milder than where you live. I live in one of those such sh*tboxes in the Bay Area, except for a few days a year it's quite tolerable here with no heat and no AC. Haven't turned on any AC since summer of 2006. Heat, since we're all at work and school most of the day during the season, is only on in the weekends for a few hrs in the evening during the week. No need to have it on after we go do bed, blankets are adequate.

On the other hand we have some of the highest electricity rates in the US, so the low energy consumption benefit is cancelled out by the high rates.

Sybrib. This site is west coast centric and that's the first thing I noticed when I start reading this site years ago.

You guy got nice weather there, and that's good for you guys. But that's sort of luxury lots of people visiting this site from all over the states do not have. I can hardly think my location, or ToT being in FL, everthing being in WI, etc can be a matter. We just can say what we think, is it not?

I had to point out insulation issue after everything has mentioned that, because the electricity bill can be outrageous in the summer and the winter where the weather is not ideal. So, yes. I do care. It's hugh concern for me.