patrick.net

So many people think they are invincible. Until they aren't.

upisdown says

And those insurance companies weren't doing that before?? LOL

Not nearly to this extend. Remember, the entire intention of the individual mandate was to siphon as much money from the young, healthy adults as possible.

From PBS

Under the Affordable Care Act, getting young people into the health insurance market will be critical to offsetting the cost of caring for older, sicker Americans.

We know that in order for us to be successful, to really make sure the marketplaces are effective, there's a smaller subset that needs to really be at the center of our focus for outreach. And that's about two million to two-and-a-half-million young and healthy 18-to-35-year-olds.

The challenge now, how to convince young people, most of whom are healthy, to spend money on insurance they may not think they need or can afford.

Or straight from the mouth of one of those Millennials in the PBS article...

Look, young people are going to be used under Obamacare. Our generation is being asked -- that's the only way it works -- to subsidize an older, wealthier generation's health care. It's simply not a good deal for us at all. We can continue to get affordable options if we pay the penalty and stay outside these Obamacare exchanges and just pay for our own health insurance.

So no, the particular way the ACA is structured, and intentionally so, is to take advantage of the Millennials. And national policy on health care should not pit one generation against another.

Dan8267 says

And national policy on health care should not pit one generation against another.

Then again, our whole social security system is a form of generational theft...why should health care be any different?

freak80 says

Dan8267 says

And national policy on health care should not pit one generation against another.

Then again, our whole social security system is a form of generational theft...why should health care be any different?

How so?

I don't see the parallel

freak80 says

So many people think they are invincible. Until they aren't.

That's actually a myth. There are plenty of responsible young adults who don't at all think they are invincible, but still consider paying 10 times their fair share under the ACA as being assfucked.

Again, the goal of universal coverage can be met using age brackets. Simply state in law that the revenue from any age bracket cannot be used in another age bracket and that 90% of the revenue must be spent on health care, not private profits. The sole reason for not having age brackets is to take advantage of the poorer, younger population.

freak80 says

Dan8267 says

And national policy on health care should not pit one generation against another.

Then again, our whole social security system is a form of generational theft...why should health care be any different?

Two wrongs don't make a right. But yes, if executed like this, the ACA will become a Ponzi scheme. It will rely on ever increasing ratios of young to old, and is mathematically doomed to fail.

Right now the Millennials are attractive victims because they are young and there are so many of them. But a Millennial who pays for health insurance under the ACA isn't subsidizing his future, 60-year-old self; no he's subsidizing current 60-year-olds. So when he gets to be 60, they money he paid in his youth is already spent and not available for his health care.

Thus, when the Millennials reach their 50s and 60s, there will be a massive crisis because the Millennials will be a large, old generation and all the funding they put into the system will have been spent on prior generations. So there will have to be an even larger generation of young people to support the Millennials, and that's not going to happen.

Any system that relies on exponentially increasing populations is doomed to fail. Populations cannot grow exponentially forever.

Dan8267 says

I have yet to hear one argument against the use of age brackets in health insurance.

I can't see that this makes any sense at all.

A system without brackets is perfectly fair. That is if 30 year olds pay a little more than they would with brackets, and 60 year old pay less, that's perfectly fair as long as the system is consistent so that when that 30 year old gets to 60, they have the same deal.

With our expensive health care, it doesn't make sense to charge those with preexisting conditions 20 times as much as a 28 year old, nor does it make sense to make 60 year olds pay 5 times as much as a 28 year old. We should all get the same deal in due time, and we should be okay with "subsidizing" those with chronic or congenital type preexisting conditions, if you must call it subsidizing. I would just call it a reasonable implementation of insurance.

Dan8267 says

ven if you are for forcing the young to subsidize the old, it should be done in a transparent system controlled by the public, not private corporations.

That's true. Nationalized single payer would be way better.

I do not know to what extent the ACA is involved in these age rate questions. But I think the ACA must be establishing parameters. Otherwise it wouldn't work.

I guess Canada's nationalized insurance system in assfucking their millenials too?

humanity says

Dan8267 says

I have yet to hear one argument against the use of age brackets in health insurance.

I can't see that this makes any sense at all.

A system without brackets is perfectly fair. That is if 30 year olds pay a little more than they would with brackets, and 60 year old pay less, that's perfectly fair as long as the system is consistent so that when that 30 year old gets to 60, they have the same deal.

Ah, but there's the rub. As I stated just above, that's exactly what doesn't happen. Whenever generation G2 pays for G1, and G3 pays for G2, eventually Gn gets screwed. In such a system, each generation will always take more out of the system then they put in until the system collapses.

The only way to provide for stability is to have Gi pay for Gi for all i. That way no generation can take out more than it puts in. And, in fact, if not for the motivation of taking out more than you put in, there is no incentive to structure the system so that G[j > i] pays for G[i].

How do we determine what is a fair rate that americans should pay for their health insurance?

Who determines this fair rate?

Oh, mega corporations do.

Everybody knows that they are in the business of helping poor, sick people. Like all good democrats do

For the assholes that cheerlead, and vote for this heritage foundation concocted mess, you can fittingly call it fascist, or you can label it facist, but its all the same in the end.

(Your) Face, its what's for dinner!

humanity says

I guess Canadas nationalized insurance system in assfucking their millenials too?

I don't know. It depends on how their system is implemented.

I'm not arguing against nationalized health care. Hell, I'd be for that. I'm arguing against a particular, socially unjust implementation of health care policy -- one, by the way, that's not even a nationalize system.

As I've said before, I'd be fine with the individual mandate if the following conditions were met:
1. A single payer system to ensure that everyone pays the same for a given treatment at a given place.
2. A public option that anyone can choose including those whose employer's offer health insurance (just have the employer funding go to the public option).
3. Age brackets for health insurance disbursements.

None of these real reforms in any way hinders the implementation of the ACA or a nationalized health care system.

In fact, I would argue that the worst thing about the ACA is that it prevented real reform from happening. The public was almost riled up enough to demand real reform and instead we got pseudo-reform and a gift to big insurance in the ACA.

Dan8267 says

Ah, but there's the rub. As I stated just above, that's exactly what doesn't happen.

It must happen. This won't be like social security. And there is no reason to think it will be like medicare.

Dan8267 says

Whenever generation G2 pays for G1, and G3 pays for G2, eventually Gn gets screwed.

The primary reason we see that happening now is because the baby boom is such a large cohort compared to the group before and to a lesser degree also the groups after. But this is highly unusual, and is going to cost us anyway.

To that extent, I see your point. To the extent that SS and medicare have become somewhat "pay as you go" (they aren't nearly completely that way),
it does screw later generations, because they aren't as big compared to generations that follow as the boomers are.

The right wing saw this coming, which is why they gave the Bush tax cuts to the rich, and are for taxes being too low as long as possible as they horde wealth to prepare for the coming tough times.

It may backfire.

Dan8267 says

1. A single payer system to ensure that everyone pays the same for a given treatment at a given place.

Is healthcare a personal service or pre-packaged box thing that you buy at the local Costco? Do you treat every blind date the same? regardless how attractive the girl is? or are you suggesting the girl should treat every guy exactly the same regardless how you treat her? Money is what you use to charm a vendor. Vendors are whores, just like you whore your time every day to go to a place called work place. It's absurd to think every whore should be paid the same or every john should pay the same. To think doctors should treat everyone exactly the same is to ascribe to doctors less freedom than what whores have.

2. A public option that anyone can choose including those whose employer's offer health insurance (just have the employer funding go to the public option).

How long do you think it will be before that public option either runs out of money or has to be tax-payer supported? or have long lines because most doctors refuse to take the public option patients due to low pay.

3. Age brackets for health insurance disbursements.

Age is one of the biggest pre-existing conditions. You are exposing the patent absurdity of trying to have a centralized pricing system to discover the balance between having those with pre-existing conditions covered (including age) vs. those not having the pre-existing conditions demanding a lower insurance premium. Those price discovery processes are what the market place involving numerous independent participants is for.

edvard2 says

First of all, anyone- regardless of age- who doesn't have health insurance is an idiot. They are one step away from instant bankruptcy.

Your first Co-Insurance bill will do that nicely. Why run to bankruptcy when you can just stay and wait for it?

Also if you don't have insurance, and you don't have any money to afford insurance, then one is already bankrupt.

Regardless insured or uninsured, Obamacare has made poor and sick and deadly combination. At least before there were charitable options.

I knew once we freed the slaves, required child labor laws that allowed kids not to have to work in the mines, and let women vote we would be confronted with a requirement that we have a minimum amount of health care. It is a slippery slope we can't seem to get off.

Dan8267 says

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Agree. I was being sarcastic, of course. ;-)

saroya says

requirement that we have a minimum amount of health care

If only it was a rational version of that vision, instead of a massive, lobbyist written, support for the existing corrupted sick care cartels.

Dan8267 says

But a Millennial who pays for health insurance under the ACA isn't subsidizing his future, 60-year-old self; no he's subsidizing current 60-year-olds. So when he gets to be 60, they money he paid in his youth is already spent and not available for his health care.

Thus, when the Millennials reach their 50s and 60s, there will be a massive crisis because the Millennials will be a large, old generation and all the funding they put into the system will have been spent on prior generations.
So there will have to be an even larger generation of young people to support the Millennials, and that's not going to happen.

Correct. In other words, it's much like the way Social Security is structured, right? And so the ACA will face the same problems.

"Assfucking the Millennials"

I can remember a time when the useless, alcoholic owner of this stupid fucking blog used to BAN people for even THINKING about writing the word ASSFUCKING.

Of course, now that people PAY him to be allowed to post bullshit comments that no one reads, things have changed.

It's all a rentier scam as errc says.
AMA exacerbated Doctor shortages, new studies call in question everything from efficacy of the most frequently prescribed drugs (most especially the SSRI cash cows), to the benefit of many screening hustles (colonoscopy, mammogram), and even the beloved annual tithing of the "yearly check up". Scams and government protected rackets, now being handed to some Frankenstein's monster of a Federal Agency. A medical information database shared by the IRS, and a ridiculous array of government agencies? It's fucking absurd.
The most nauseating thing about the Sick Care Cartel in this country is the extreme hubris of the God-like dispensers of these medical charades. Doctors offices across America dispense ineffective pills and VERY BAD NUTRITIONAL INFORMATION.

A good friend with Cadillac Insurance told me recently that his Doctor had informed him that he likely had a "fatty liver" (to me, this is like calling diabetes "pudgy pancreas", cute.) and sent him home with some Crestor/Lipitor/what-the-fuck-ever poison. Not a word about diet/nutrition. Not even some CDC "food pyramid" nonsense.

Robert Sproul says

new studies call in question everything from efficacy of the most frequently prescribed drugs (most especially the SSRI cash cows),

Well that's good news, IMHO...

why do i keep hearing the boomers telling us how the millenials are getting ass fucked and meanwhile the millenials themselves never seem to agree on the HOW part of this?

FuckPatricknet says

"Assfucking the Millennials"

I can remember a time when the useless, alcoholic owner of this stupid fucking blog used to BAN people for even THINKING about writing the word ASSFUCKING.

Of course, now that people PAY him to be allowed to post bullshit comments that no one reads, things have changed.

patrick figured out the more 'fuck' you have on your forum more hits you get.

MershedPerturders says

FuckPatricknet says

"Assfucking the Millennials"

I can remember a time when the useless, alcoholic owner of this stupid fucking blog used to BAN people for even THINKING about writing the word ASSFUCKING.

Of course, now that people PAY him to be allowed to post bullshit comments that no one reads, things have changed.

patrick figured out the more 'fuck' you have on your forum more hits you get.

If he really wanted to make $$ he'd have to go more hard core instead of this soft porn

sbh says

Just a thought: he could link a feed into any Catholic church child abuse session.

Except the site would crash from all the extra traffic generated by Catholic priests worldwide...

Could we kinda not have swears in threads?
Health care is not going to be cheap under any any government plan that subsidizes demand rather than supply.

As long as we have a system that simply gives coverage to everyone without hiring a single doctor or nurse. Make a single hospital bed etc. It will continue to go up.

Waiting times will go up. For everyone. Doing less with more is a Walmart plan as this is.

Ok so how exactly do we lower health care costs?

You replace this with an increase of medical hospitals, medical schools, you legalize drug store clinics in ALL states, you provide for more financial incentives to STAY being a general practitioner etc.

Consider this though. Like with education and Dan I remember that VSS concept you made awhile ago here maybe the same could be done with medical care.

Technologies have improved to the point where many systems are not hard to get for individuals. Vitals can be taken, temps can be taken, blood pressure, blood tests etc. Technology is there, it is just a matter of being able to interpret what it means.

At the way things are now frankly many people might not pay frankly because not all doctors are going to be able to take new patients and then what? The government cannot force people to buy insurance if the doctors are half way across the state? If you buy in SF or LA then that's where you really should go. No one in their right mind is going to say live in San Diego and go to Crescent City!

FuckPatricknet says

"Assfucking the Millennials"

Yes, the title is sensational, but it's still accurate. The Millennials are being heavily taken advantaged of.

However, I would advise someone with the handle FuckPatricknet not to complain too loudly about Patrick's tolerance.

freak80 says

Correct. In other words, it's much like the way Social Security is structured, right? And so the ACA will face the same problems.

Whenever one generation has to pay for the next, each generation is motivated to consume more than they put in. Each generation thinks, well I had to pay for last round of assholes, so you're going to pay through the nose for me so I can get the maximum return on my expenses. This causes a constant escalation of costs that is only sustained, temporarily, by increases in population. When population growth can no longer keep up with escalating costs, the whole system collapses and the generation holding the bag during the collapse is the one that get screwed over.

Boomer politicians on both sides of the aisle don't give a rat's butt about the younger generations being screwed over. Both parties will do anything to protect the Boomers and ensure that their benefits are there, but all future generations will have to fend for themselves. And from the interviews of Boomers on NPR, it seems that the Boomers are perfectly satisfied with that.

Vaticanus says

I'm tired of arrogant boomers who have been enjoying the best years America has ever seen while borrowing from their grand kids and expecting them to bend over for another round.

This is bullshit. It's not about their arrogance. It's about their numbers. There are so many of them. That's all. That's not their fault.

MershedPerturders says

why do i keep hearing the boomers telling us how the millenials are getting ass fucked and meanwhile the millenials themselves never seem to agree on the HOW part of this?

It is hard to communicate while bound, gaged and bent over the picket fence.

mdovell says

Could we kinda not have swears in threads?

Health care is not going to be cheap under any any government plan that subsidizes demand rather than supply.

is 'Working Class' a swear word?

Ok so how exactly do we lower health care costs?

Get to the root of why they've become so expensive in the first place. Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition.

For all the advances we've made over the years, our understanding of nutrition and what is "bad" and what is "good" is pretty sad. Its actually devolved. Before we had all the information, and technology, humans knew, via science, what to and what not to eat. We knew which dietary inputs caused what results. And we were much healthier for it.

Sugars and grains are the primary culprits. The usfedgov needs to rescind the original food pyramid, and explain why. Because 12 servings of breads and grains per day will make you sick.

Vicente mentioned Chrons earlier in the thread. Chrons is easily treatable by eliminating grains and simple carbohydrates from ones diet

This is the simplest solution, and the only starting point. So long as the usfedgov is peddling the SAD, people will continue to be chronically "sick". And dumb. Fueling the body with primarily carbohydrates, makes people stupid. Its like dumping unleaded gasoline into your diesel motor and wondering why it won't work. Food is fuel, and were collectively dumping sugar in our gas tanks

Now let's all flail around and act confused as to why we're poisoning ourselves with toxic food substitutes, and we end up ill

humanity says

Vaticanus says

I'm tired of arrogant boomers who have been enjoying the best years America has ever seen while borrowing from their grand kids and expecting them to bend over for another round.

This is bullshit. It's not about their arrogance. It's about their numbers. There are so many of them. That's all. That's not their fault.

that's partially it, because they invited in hordes of hungry asians and mexicans so the good productive people are vastly outnumbered and can't vote anything useful or sustainable. Anytime they try they just Transgender or Legalize Weed instead.

Vaticanus says

MershedPerturders says

why do i keep hearing the boomers telling us how the millenials are getting ass fucked and meanwhile the millenials themselves never seem to agree on the HOW part of this?

It is hard to communicate while bound, gaged and bent over the picket fence.

right somewhat but remember when they think 'millenials' they think specifically of those offspring of what used to be a overwhelming white majority. So if you really look at the demographics of that age group youve got LOADS of people who are somewhat ignored by the media, or they don't lump them in. Some of the boomers see their kids are disadvantaged or seriously handicapped economically so favor a kind of inheritance system and a university caste system that they can buy a place for their children in. This kind of thing also has a lifespan and ends in complete corruption and bankruptcy.

Dan, keep in mind, some people like getting fucked in the ass.

Not my cup of tea, but some people are into it none the less

errc says

Dan, keep in mind, some people like getting fucked in the ass.

Ah, but there is no individual mandate to get fucked up the ass. And that's the point. At least before, the Millennials could vote with their wallets and say no health insurance is worth getting at current market prices. The individual mandate takes away any benefit of a free market without taking away all the disadvantages of letting private, for-profit corporation handle what is better done by a non-profit government agency.

This is my first post ever on patrick.net, and I've been following this site for about 6-7 years. I'm generally libertarian in my ideology but not purely so given any ideology has sticking points.

Regarding health insurance, this is tough. I have always historically been on the side of not requiring everyone to have health insurance because of my belief in freedom. However, none of us can say that because young people are eating well, exercising and taking care of themselves, they shouldn't have to buy insurance for that reason. My youngest son was diagnosed with juvenile arthritis last year...nothing too major, but would've cost me about $10,000 in medical costs for the first 6 months alone if I didn't have employer-sponsored health insurance. This condition doesn't run in either of our families and my son is extremely healthy and athletic otherwise, but shiz happens.

Why not make people at least have catastrophic coverage so that the premiums are lower but yet doesn't create this burden on the system if they suffer some grave illness that costs tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars? I do agree that not having age brackets is completely unfair, and people have to plan better as to how they are going to take care of their health care needs when they're older and not have to rely on the younger generation to pay for them.

Dan8267 says

errc says

Dan, keep in mind, some people like getting fucked in the ass.

Ah, but there is no individual mandate to get fucked up the ass. And that's the point. At least before, the Millennials could vote with their wallets and say no health insurance is worth getting at current market prices. The individual mandate takes away any benefit of a free market without taking away all the disadvantages of letting private, for-profit corporation handle what is better done by a non-profit government agency.

Given the choices, death, or oogoo, ill opt out and pay the fine.

When some statist retard with a double digit IQ attempts to fuck my ass, ill flip the script on them and fuck um right back

Ahh how I love the smell of freedom

errc says

Now let's all flail around and act confused as to why we're poisoning ourselves with toxic food substitutes, and we end up ill

There does seem to be a neat symbiosis between the cheap processed industrial food supply and the sick care cartel.
I shop at a local food co-op and every day see lean body mass, healthy looking, young people that are trying to handle their "health care" by choosing to spend, disproportionately to their income I'm certain, on an organic, vegetable centric, locally produced, pasture fed, real food diet.

This is also what I have chosen to do with the 800-1200 a month that my wife and I don't (get to) spend on "health" insurance.

Young people are rational enough. If ACA was perceived as a good deal, you really wouldn't have to twist their arms. Throughout my life if I had an option to affordably insure myself I took it.

Also: All you young bloods please be aware that there are lots of boomers out there that really don't want to fuck over anybody. And we try to live and vote accordingly. You is hurtin' my feelings.

I'll put some numbers on the age band compression limitations to help folks digest the numbers. So under a 5:1 regime, a youth would pay $100 per month, but because of the 3 to 1 limitation, they now pay $150 per month. The older timers premium would be reduced from $500 per month to $450 per month. The rest of the AAF report is apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned. YMMV.

humanity says

Vaticanus says

I'm tired of arrogant boomers who have been enjoying the best years America has ever seen while borrowing from their grand kids and expecting them to bend over for another round.

This is bullshit. It's not about their arrogance. It's about their numbers. There are so many of them. That's all. That's not their fault.

Ah yes the gang rape defense. Your honor my clients are not guilty of rape, there just happened to be more rapists than there were victims. It's not our fault!