patrick.net

Quigley says

If Dan is right, and the mind is simply an electrochemical phenomenon within a piece of organic jelly that ceases upon death, then why is this sad?

I understand his view. He respects life, and he believes that when someone dies, all of their accumulated knowledge and experience and all of the love that they held all that they are goes to nothing. It's pretty tragic. Also imagine the tragedy back in the day when beautiful young children were lost to illness. Sometimes one family would lose several.

In his infinite arrogance, Dan knows that the way humans deal with unimaginable loss of loved ones is folly. He knows this. And he hates the way that the silly humans are. He knows better, and wishes to share his wisdom with us.

Gee, thanks Dan.

Get past the first part of this excellent song. It doesn't stay so psychedelic. Good video too.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/CZ5xsH2HEgE&list=PL5852C1F6C02FAB4A

Another from the same album

http://www.youtube.com/embed/-JVrjBKCWgs&list=PL5852C1F6C02FAB4A

marcus says

"Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again."

I actually do not believe that is the reason. That is my opinion. You know what an opinion is, and how that's different than a fact ? Usually a severe chemical imbalance is what causes a 12 year old to end their own life.

I'm sorry, but I think you are dodging the question. Maybe you are right (and I can see how that can help you reduce cognitive dissonance), but I think you have to at least address the chance (indeed, the likelihood) that the reason was exactly what she said it was.

It might have been her reason, but I think what Marcus is saying is that there must have been an underlying condition (a gland firing too much or not enough of something) which predisposed the child to such thoughts in the first place.

bdrasin says

but I think you have to at least address the chance (indeed, the likelihood) that the reason was exactly what she said it was.

I did address it. marcus says

Yes, she tried to comfort her mother in the note. Maybe your OPINION is correct that her saying that meant more than just an attempt to comfort her mother. Maybe not.

Even with my pov, you can blame religion for giving her such a way to comfort her mother (as I said).

Okay, let's say that was her thinking. Still she was deeply depressed to a point of killing herself. We don't know that without the concept of heaven she would not have chosen "to join" her father anyway.

It still boils down to a severely sick state she was in at that moment. And this is all ridiculous over analysis.

Quigley says

If Dan is right, and the mind is simply an electrochemical phenomenon within a piece of organic jelly that ceases upon death, then why is this sad? What, if anything, is sad? And why? How could anything be sad if nothing matters because our existence is a pointless accident of chemistry?

I was going to make a similar point but you are saying it wrong.

The fact that life 'appears' pointless is not relevant, because people have emotions, joys, pains, and that life itself as we perceive it is valuable.

Dan's obvious answer to that would be that afterlife doesn't add any meaning. Life with afterlife is still be pointless, maybe even more (why have part life and part afterlife?).

The question to Dan is that if belief in afterlife is worthless because there is no such thing in the physical world, then the implication is that things are only worthy of consideration if they exist in the outside physical world. In other words only pure physical facts matter.

Since pain and sadness are just feelings created by the brain, and are not observed physical facts, they are therefore just idiosyncrasies of the brain to be discarded as irrelevant.

Pain and sadness were created by evolution to lead us to act a certain way and we can now advantageously replace this by knowledge and logic about the way we act.

Dan8267 says

I doubt very much that this is the first time in history someone has wasted his or her life because of the afterlife lie. It's just the first indisputable proof we've seen.

You seem to be forgetting every single suicide bomber and kamikaze pilot in history.

Heraclitusstudent says

Pain and sadness were created by evolution to lead us to act a certain way

Interesting.

What is the evolutionary function of emotional pain that is so deep that it virtually paralyzes a person ?

marcus says

Heraclitusstudent says

Pain and sadness were created by evolution to lead us to act a certain way

Interesting.

What is the evolutionary function of emotional pain that is so deep that it virtually paralyzes a person ?

Attachment to loved ones is required for families and tribes to hold together and social organization in groups is an evolution outcome that has obvious advantages for survival.

The other side of this attachment: pain at separation. It is the necessary motivation to make you stick together.

Good answer.

Although, why not do it with just a positive emotional aspect to the connection(s), without such pain at loss, is one impossible without the other ? Seems to be a negative for evolution. How many times have people literally died from grief ? IF not directly, then indirectly.

Getting over it should be in our programming too, and I think it is. But it takes a fair amount of time (regardless of superficial beliefs). I think sometimes several years. Actually, I don't know that I see all of this as being in "our programming."

I was just trying to show that life is more than pure logic and trying to restrict it to pure logic removes the most interesting aspects of life.

Yes pain and joy go together, and both should be embraced as part of life and as purely 'good'. Life wouldn't be life without pain. While as humans, it's natural to avoid pain, we ought to recognize it as a necessary counter balance. A life without pain, just going from pleasure to pleasure, would be hugely boring and would leave us completely undeveloped as human beings.

Pain or more generally adversity is what shapes as who we are.

As for the girl, yes this is sad, but an other feeling here is: such a waste.

Heraclitusstudent says

It is the necessary motivation to make you stick together.

Despite monogamy being wholly unnatural.

marcus says

I actually do not believe that is the reason.

Refusing to accept a truth because it contradicts your beliefs is, by definition, self-delusion.

Stating that you refuse to accept the girls note as being honest is nothing more than a dishonest dodge of the issue: true belief in an afterlife causes people to make foolish and even tragic decisions.

Quigley says

If Dan is right, and the mind is simply an electrochemical phenomenon within a piece of organic jelly that ceases upon death, then why is this sad

The fact that consciousnesses arises from physical components instead of make-believe fairy mystical components doesn't mean it is simple or worthless. The loss of a sentient mind is sad because such a mind has value. Sentience is itself valuable. If you don't believe me, feel free to off yourself. If you don't, you are confirming that you value your self conscientiousness and that my words are true.

To believe that life only has value because some magic sky daddy created it is to believe that life itself is cheap. It is belittling to this spectacular universe.

SoftShell says

There's a lot of contradiction in this paragraph....

Feel free to point out what you erroneously believe to be a contradiction and explain why. I'll then explain why you are wrong.

marcus says

In his infinite arrogance, Dan knows that the way humans deal with unimaginable loss of loved ones is folly. He knows this. And he hates the way that the silly humans are. He knows better, and wishes to share his wisdom with us.

Only a fool believes it is infinite arrogance to oppose delusions, especially dangerous ones. And since when is the desire to share wisdom and understanding a bad thing? Wisdom is one of the greatest gifts one can give. Although, as you have demonstrated, it is also one of those most likely to be rejected.

JodyChunder says

It might have been her reason, but I think what Marcus is saying is that there must have been an underlying condition (a gland firing too much or not enough of something) which predisposed the child to such thoughts in the first place.

The dirty truth is that the girl's logic was impeccable. If the conclusion was absurd, it is only because the premise was equally absurd, for the premise is the only thing contributing to the incorrectness of the conclusion.

If her faith in the afterlife is well-founded, then there is no tragedy here. She is happily in heaven with her father and is far better off than if she had lived. If her faith in the afterlife is wrong, then this is a terrible tragedy. There are no other options. This is a scenario where the premise of an afterlife actually does matter. The truth of that premise is the only thing that is important.

It is perfectly rational to kill oneself if the Christian afterlife myth were true. In fact, if the heaven myth were true, everyone would be morally obligated to kill babies before they had the opportunity to sin and risk losing heaven. Of course, if the myth is false, then it is morally irrepressible to kill babies. The acceptance of this afterlife lie radically alters what is a moral choice and what is a wise choice. It's not an academic question.

marcus says

Still she was deeply depressed to a point of killing herself. We don't know that without the concept of heaven she would not have chosen "to join" her father anyway.

This is utter bullshit. There was nothing in the video to even suggest that the girl was depressed. Her note said

Dear mom, please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much I want to see him again.

That's not depression; that's hope. The only mental disorder here is the delusion of an afterlife.

Again, if the afterlife were actually real, her actions would be very reasonable.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan's obvious answer to that would be that afterlife doesn't add any meaning.

It's true that an afterlife would not add meaning to real life. In fact, it would diminish the meaning of real life since the afterlife would be infinitely more important. There would be no point in even trying to make this world a better place if it's just an extremely short layover to the real experience of sentience.

Heraclitusstudent says

The question to Dan is that if belief in afterlife is worthless because there is no such thing in the physical world, then the implication is that things are only worthy of consideration if they exist in the outside physical world. In other words only pure physical facts matter.

Since pain and sadness are just feelings created by the brain, and are not observed physical facts, they are therefore just idiosyncrasies of the brain to be discarded as irrelevant.

No, that's not at all what I think.

1. There is no such thing as outside the physical world. Everything that exists, by definition is physical including emotions.
2. The value of something isn't determined by how mysterious or unexplainable it is.
3. To use the word "just" to diminish the importance of something is not convincing. For example, mind-blowing sex is just mind-blowing. I still want it.
4. Pain, sadness, and everything else your experience are observable physical facts. The fact that sensations and emotions are implemented with these wonderful devices called atoms and molecules and cells does not diminish their significance. Since when did existing in nature become a bad thing? Nature rocks. Non-existent alternatives to nature are lame.
5. Idiosyncrasies is hardly the term to apply to the culmination of 13.8 billion years of physics and 3.8 billion years of evolution.
6. Nature is impressive enough herself. You don't need to steal her glory and give it to some imaginary sky daddy, who quite frankly is far less impressive. There is nothing in the Bible that is as incredible as the nuclear fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium in the furnaces of stars. Far more impressive is the myriad of devices that can be made from a handful of elements using chemistry. And exponentially more impressive than that is the arrangement of these devices to form life and eventually self-aware life. All these things are accomplishments of nature, not your imaginary gods. Belief in a god is disrespect for nature.

New Renter says

Dan8267 says

I doubt very much that this is the first time in history someone has wasted his or her life because of the afterlife lie. It's just the first indisputable proof we've seen.

You seem to be forgetting every single suicide bomber and kamikaze pilot in history.

I stand corrected. You are right.

Dan8267 says

5. Idiosyncrasies is hardly the term to apply to the culmination of 13.8 billion years of physics and 3.8 billion years of evolution.

13.8 billions years of evolution produced a brain that you say too often believes in afterlife.

Dan8267 says

4. Pain, sadness, and everything else your experience are observable physical facts. The fact that sensations and emotions are implemented with these wonderful devices called atoms and molecules and cells does not diminish their significance. Since when did existing in nature become a bad thing? Nature rocks. Non-existent alternatives to nature are lame.

So do rocks and trees exist and are implemented in atoms and molecules. Do they have the same significance as emotions?

The point is the value of emotions is precisely NOT the fact that they are implemented physically. It's not either the fact that they are mysterious. Rather it's the simple fact that we experience them as emotions.

I.e. As human beings, we live in a world made of emotions. And emotions are not rational. What's most precious about life is something that cannot be reduced to logic.

Btw, this is the story:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/10/30/religion-kills-atheists-claim-childs-suicide-proves-teaching-kids-about-god-and-heaven-can-be-deadly/

Little is known about Maria’s religious education or other circumstances she was facing, so it’s not possible to state definitely either way what role faith played in her decision to take her life. Still, that hasn’t stopped some from using tragedy to chime in about the harm they say religion does.

Normally I give atheists credit for on average being fairly intelligent, even if I do take issue with the radical, arrogant or adolescent ones who think they have had some earth shattering break throughs that they need to teach everyone (the prosthelytizers).

But this story shows that sometimes they can be just really stupid.

Dan8267 says

There was nothing in the video to even suggest that the girl was depressed. Her note said

Dear mom, please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much I want to see him again.

You're amazing. She killed herself ! That's evidence of a very sick state of mind.

Most normal Christians (including 12 year old children) even if they wish there is an afterlife and sort of believe in it, know that it may well not exist.

Between the following two choices which is more likely?

1) The girl was in a very sick state of mind and chose to kill herself, writing in her note that she wanted to join her father, which was easily a very real feeling that she could have even without believing there is an afterlife. And that her desire for her mom to "please don't be sad" was a big part of the purpose for her note. Although again yes, the desire to join her father, basically a suicidal feeling, makes sense as a (sick) suicidal feeling she had, even without knowledge, certainty or even any belief in an afterlife.

2) She was in a rational and healthy state of mind, and knew with such certainty that there is an afterlife (that is good and something that is worth giving up her entire future in this world for - just to see dad again - which she would eventually anyway if heaven exists), that she made the rational choice to be with her father (now) in heaven.

You say #2 is obviously true and that I'm delusional for thinking #1 is more likely.

I'm perfectly okay with you thinking that, and have nothing else to say on this.

Dan8267 says

JodyChunder says

Maybe Dylan got it right; maybe death is not the end. Consciousness, after all, is really only a stratified predicate.

No. Your consciousness continues to run after death the same way your spreadsheet continues to run after you power down your desktop.

Not your spreadsheet. Your email and patnet posts. Even when you hit delete they live on forever in NSA server heaven.

Heraclitusstudent says

So do rocks and trees exist and are implemented in atoms and molecules. Do they have the same significance as emotions?

The rocks and trees that have large neural networks do.

Heraclitusstudent says

Rather it's the simple fact that we experience them as emotions.

Which is due entirely to the functioning of a physical brain composed of a handful of elements.

Heraclitusstudent says

And emotions are not rational. What's most precious about life is something that cannot be reduced to logic.

That's arguing semantics.

The fact is that all of the emotional experiences of mankind, and other animals, can and is explained beautifully by the Theory of Evolution. Various biologists who study animals in social groups can point to the reasons why emotions exist and how they work. One needs only to watch Animal Planet for the proof or read just about any book by Matt Ridley.

marcus says

Little is known about Maria’s religious education or other circumstances she was facing, so it’s not possible to state definitely either way what role faith played in her decision to take her life. Still, that hasn’t stopped some from using tragedy to chime in about the harm they say religion does.

Normally I give atheists credit for on average being fairly intelligent, even if I do take issue with the radical, arrogant or adolescent ones who think they have had some earth shattering break throughs that they need to teach everyone (the prosthelytizers).

But this story shows that sometimes they can be just really stupid.

Oh honey, when it came out that smoking causes cancer, the entire tobacco industry launched a PR campaign to convince the public that there was uncertainty about that fact when there wasn't.

When it came out that burning fossil fuels causes climate change, the entire energy industry launched a PR campaign to convince the public that there was uncertainty about that fact when there wasn't.

When it came out that belief in the afterlife caused a girl to commit suicide, the entire religion industry launched a PR campaign to convince the public that there was uncertainty about that fact when there wasn't.

Those in favor of religion will deny any fact that shows fundamental religious beliefs are inherently dangerous. Sowing doubt when there is none about well-established facts is a go-to tactic for the losing side. Unfortunately that tactic works on the dumb, who make up the majority of the population.

If you believe that we cannot tell why this girl committed suicide, then you are one of the dumb.

marcus says

You're amazing. She killed herself ! That's evidence of a very sick state of mind.

That statement is true if and only if there is no afterlife.

If there is an afterlife, there is nothing irrational or "sick" about suicide. For example, in WWII Japanese pilots crashed their planes into U.S. warships because the Japanese pilots believed they would be rewarded by their emperor god in the afterlife.

The "sickness" isn't the logic that concludes that suicide is noble and good, but rather the assumption that there is an afterlife in which you will be rewarded.

marcus says

Most normal Christians (including 12 year old children) even if they wish there is an afterlife and sort of believe in it, know that it may well not exist.

Faith and doubt are antithetical. Faith is the belief in something without proof, and it is the cornerstone of every religion including Christianity. A good Christian has faith that
- God created the universe
- Jesus rose from the dead
- You have a soul that will be judged in the afterlife, and you'll go to either heaven or hell

These are dogmas of Christianity. Need I remind you of the Nicene Creed

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

If you don't believe in the Christian afterlife and Jesus rising from the dead and ascending into heaven, you're not a Christian; you're auditing.

And yes, 12-year-old Christians are expected to believe in the afterlife wholeheartedly. I went to a parochial school. It's not symbolic.

marcus says

You say #2 is obviously true and that I'm delusional for thinking #1 is more likely.

Once again, you miss the point. Neither is the case.

She was delusional precisely because she believed in the afterlife. That belief was the mental sickness that caused her death. Everything else about her was normal. I know you don't like the fact that religion has killed this girl, but it is a fact. Perhaps instead of covering for religion, you should be more concern that religion doesn't kill another girl like this.

New Renter says

Not your spreadsheet. Your email and patnet posts. Even when you hit delete they live on forever in NSA server heaven.

Ah, and there lies the true key to immortality: replacing the organic brain with a virtual neural network that can be backed up and restored, or better yet, ran on multiple platforms simultaneously and periodically synched up with each other.

Dan8267 says

If you believe that we cannot tell why this girl committed suicide, then you are one of the dumb.

Again, amazing.

Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm the extremist here that's not capable of looking at this is a balanced and relatively unemotional and nuanced way.

For the record, I too went to a Catholic school up to grade 5, and I don't think it was all that many years after learning about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, that I had at least some doubt about heaven. The truth is I didn't think about it much, but if you had pressed me, am I sure there is a heaven ? I would have said no. IT was obvious to me that this was something I hope is true, rather than something I know is true.

Age 10, let alone 12 is early enough to comprehend what faith means. And right there if you understand what faith means, it's understood that having faith means you are choosing to believe something, rather than knowing that it's true.

Also If you asked me at a young age, if there is a heaven (that is, given there is), and also a hell and a purgatory, are you 100% certain that if you die now you will go to heaven ? I would have said no.

Also as a good Catholic, I had learned what every good Christian knows, which is that suicide is a terrible sin, you're basically murdering yourself, for which you risk going to hell. In the Catholic faith it is a serious mortal sin.

How does one have an incredibly strong faith that heaven exists, without knowing that there are requirements (saint Peter or whatever) for getting in to heaven ?

THe only thing you convince me of, is that only sometimes do you seem intelligent. In other cases like this, where you get stuck defending some retarded atheists that try to make something out of this ?

I feel only vicarious embarrassment for you on this one.

Because an after-life cannot be proved or disproved, the weak-minded will continue to seek it out for the hope and paradise that it offers beyond, what many see, as a mundane and miserable life. Just like Cipher wanted back into the Matrix, many people are too frightened and depressed at the possibility that there is no after-life and choose to believe in fairy tales and fantasy to keep them sane. After all, perception is reality.

Dan8267 says

What? No one wants to come to the defense of religion? Not even Marcus?

To be fair, majority of Christian splinters in the USA, consider suicide to be a sin. So Daddy may be in heaven, but she'll never see him from where she lands.

Dan8267 says

there is no afterlife

Just FYI Dan, Christianity unlike Muslimity, strictly prohibits suicide. Either way this is a sad sad story.

marcus says

Age 10, let alone 12 is early enough to comprehend what faith means.

More reason why children should not be exposed to religion. It's far more dangerous to their development than drugs, alcohol, or gay porn.

Yet all religions indoctrinate children.

If a 12-year-old isn't old enough to understand "faith", then no parent should tell their children the lie of the afterlife.

marcus says

Also as a good Catholic, I had learned what every good Christian knows, which is that suicide is a terrible sin, you're basically murdering yourself, for which you risk going to hell.

Of course, any god that would send this 12-year-old child to be tortured hell for all eternity for attempting to see her daddy again and equating that with the vileness of murdering someone is a damn, motherfucking, evil god. And that means everything you learned as a "good Catholic" was a lie.

marcus says

I feel only vicarious embarrassment for you on this one.

When fools think you are wrong, you are on the right track.

The bottom line is that the belief in the false afterlife makes unreasonable decisions perfectly reasonable. For example, suicide bombing, flying planes into buildings, and ending your life to see loved ones. Nothing you've said even remotely address the fact that the girl's suicide would be perfectly reasonable if the afterlife were real.

debyne says

Because an after-life cannot be proved or disproved

That which can be asserted without reason can be dismissed without reason. It makes just as much sense to believe that after you die, smurfs fuck you up the ass for all eternity while Barry Manilow plays in the background. There is just as much reason to believe that as the Christian afterlife story.

As for proof that the supernatural either does not exist or cannot interact with the natural, see my previous threads on the subject. Some things are knowable.

Vicente says

To be fair, majority of Christian splinters in the USA, consider suicide to be a sin. So Daddy may be in heaven, but she'll never see him from where she lands.

FortWayne says

Just FYI Dan, Christianity unlike Muslimity, strictly prohibits suicide. Either way this is a sad sad story.

Ah, but for any god to place this girl in hell would make that god more evil than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao put together. Any such god would be worse than a pedophile, far, far worse. After all, raping this 12-year-old girl would pale in comparison to the evil of torturing her for all eternity, a torture which would have to include rape itself of something worse to really merit the term hell. Do you really believe in a god that's far worse than all the pedophiles in history put together?

bgamall4 says

Dan8267 says

because there is no afterlife.

Are you sure?

Yes. And the fact that no one and I mean no one is celebrating this girl's death is proof positive that deep down, everyone else knows there is no afterlife as well, even if they will not admit it to themselves.

bgamall4 says

You are sure of that? Dan even if die in this unbelief, your statement of the "obvious" won't spare you from eternal judgement.

Any god that would punish a person for not believing in that god without rational evidence would be an evil god. Is that the god you believe in?

And if we are playing dice, then it is equally plausible that the "god" has never revealed itself to mankind and will punish any person who worships false gods, which would include any god worshiped by man since the god has not revealed himself. So why take the chance of worshiping any god?

As for belief, I do not choose what I believe. The evidence chooses. I can no more believe in a god or afterlife than I could believe the world is flat or that the square root of 2 is a rational number. Belief can only be a choice if it is the choice of self-delusion.

Ahhhh. don'tcha just love these Freudian slips??

Dan8267 says

It makes just as much sense to believe that after you die, smurfs fuck you up the ass for all eternity while Barry Manilow plays in the background.

bottom line. nobody knows jack shit until consciousness is fully understood, peer reviewed, and accepted by the majority of those in the field.

SoftShell says

bottom line. nobody knows jack shit until consciousness is fully understood, peer reviewed, and accepted by the majority of those in the field.

You mean like climate change?

From another thread, but so relevant to this one.

So tell us how the brain 'creates' consciousness...

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

bottom line. nobody knows jack shit until consciousness is fully understood, peer reviewed, and accepted by the majority of those in the field.

You mean like climate change?

Dan8267 says

Ah, but for any god to place this girl in hell would make that god more evil than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao put together.

Dunno. God apparently can drop the roof in on a church with worshippers int it, and not be perceived as a murderer. God can help this team or that team win if you pray hard enough, but still give your kid cancer. I can't explain all the convoluted illogic of true believers, but they subject themselves to those rules so they have to live, die, and afterlife with them.

SoftShell says

So tell us how the brain 'creates' consciousness...

http://bit.ly/1d2zd8R

In any case, how the brain creates consciousness is irrelevant. We know that it does whether or not why understand how it does. Try keeping your consciousness intact after having your brain removed. Sure, you can keep the brain step to keep you vital organs running, but without the rest of the brain, you aren't you. Period.

Please feel free to call me on this by doing a self-lobotomy.

Dan8267 says

In any case, how the brain creates consciousness is irrelevant.

No, it isn't.

JodyChunder says

Dan8267 says

In any case, how the brain creates consciousness is irrelevant.

No, it isn't.

The question of how the brain creates consciousnesses is most certainly irrelevant to the question of does the brain create consciousnesses. Once can clearly know that the brain does create consciousness without knowing how it does this, just like one can know that your computer creates the images on the screen you are currently looking at without knowing how your computer does this.

bgamall4 says

Look at it this way, Dan.

None of what you say or quote even remotely deals with the indisputable conclusion that any god who would put this girl, who committed suicide to see her daddy, in hell would have to be utterly and despicably evil. It doesn't take a god to see how immoral and unethical that would be.

Dan8267 says

just like one can know that your computer creates the images on the screen you are currently looking at without knowing how your computer does this.

I'm sorry, Dan, but I've said before that any comparisons of the human brain to any operating system in existence is simply facile, at best.