patrick.net

Dan8267 says

there is no afterlife

Just FYI Dan, Christianity unlike Muslimity, strictly prohibits suicide. Either way this is a sad sad story.

marcus says

Age 10, let alone 12 is early enough to comprehend what faith means.

More reason why children should not be exposed to religion. It's far more dangerous to their development than drugs, alcohol, or gay porn.

Yet all religions indoctrinate children.

If a 12-year-old isn't old enough to understand "faith", then no parent should tell their children the lie of the afterlife.

marcus says

Also as a good Catholic, I had learned what every good Christian knows, which is that suicide is a terrible sin, you're basically murdering yourself, for which you risk going to hell.

Of course, any god that would send this 12-year-old child to be tortured hell for all eternity for attempting to see her daddy again and equating that with the vileness of murdering someone is a damn, motherfucking, evil god. And that means everything you learned as a "good Catholic" was a lie.

marcus says

I feel only vicarious embarrassment for you on this one.

When fools think you are wrong, you are on the right track.

The bottom line is that the belief in the false afterlife makes unreasonable decisions perfectly reasonable. For example, suicide bombing, flying planes into buildings, and ending your life to see loved ones. Nothing you've said even remotely address the fact that the girl's suicide would be perfectly reasonable if the afterlife were real.

debyne says

Because an after-life cannot be proved or disproved

That which can be asserted without reason can be dismissed without reason. It makes just as much sense to believe that after you die, smurfs fuck you up the ass for all eternity while Barry Manilow plays in the background. There is just as much reason to believe that as the Christian afterlife story.

As for proof that the supernatural either does not exist or cannot interact with the natural, see my previous threads on the subject. Some things are knowable.

Vicente says

To be fair, majority of Christian splinters in the USA, consider suicide to be a sin. So Daddy may be in heaven, but she'll never see him from where she lands.

FortWayne says

Just FYI Dan, Christianity unlike Muslimity, strictly prohibits suicide. Either way this is a sad sad story.

Ah, but for any god to place this girl in hell would make that god more evil than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao put together. Any such god would be worse than a pedophile, far, far worse. After all, raping this 12-year-old girl would pale in comparison to the evil of torturing her for all eternity, a torture which would have to include rape itself of something worse to really merit the term hell. Do you really believe in a god that's far worse than all the pedophiles in history put together?

bgamall4 says

Dan8267 says

because there is no afterlife.

Are you sure?

Yes. And the fact that no one and I mean no one is celebrating this girl's death is proof positive that deep down, everyone else knows there is no afterlife as well, even if they will not admit it to themselves.

bgamall4 says

You are sure of that? Dan even if die in this unbelief, your statement of the "obvious" won't spare you from eternal judgement.

Any god that would punish a person for not believing in that god without rational evidence would be an evil god. Is that the god you believe in?

And if we are playing dice, then it is equally plausible that the "god" has never revealed itself to mankind and will punish any person who worships false gods, which would include any god worshiped by man since the god has not revealed himself. So why take the chance of worshiping any god?

As for belief, I do not choose what I believe. The evidence chooses. I can no more believe in a god or afterlife than I could believe the world is flat or that the square root of 2 is a rational number. Belief can only be a choice if it is the choice of self-delusion.

Ahhhh. don'tcha just love these Freudian slips??

Dan8267 says

It makes just as much sense to believe that after you die, smurfs fuck you up the ass for all eternity while Barry Manilow plays in the background.

bottom line. nobody knows jack shit until consciousness is fully understood, peer reviewed, and accepted by the majority of those in the field.

SoftShell says

bottom line. nobody knows jack shit until consciousness is fully understood, peer reviewed, and accepted by the majority of those in the field.

You mean like climate change?

From another thread, but so relevant to this one.

So tell us how the brain 'creates' consciousness...

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

bottom line. nobody knows jack shit until consciousness is fully understood, peer reviewed, and accepted by the majority of those in the field.

You mean like climate change?

Dan8267 says

Ah, but for any god to place this girl in hell would make that god more evil than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao put together.

Dunno. God apparently can drop the roof in on a church with worshippers int it, and not be perceived as a murderer. God can help this team or that team win if you pray hard enough, but still give your kid cancer. I can't explain all the convoluted illogic of true believers, but they subject themselves to those rules so they have to live, die, and afterlife with them.

SoftShell says

So tell us how the brain 'creates' consciousness...

http://bit.ly/1d2zd8R

In any case, how the brain creates consciousness is irrelevant. We know that it does whether or not why understand how it does. Try keeping your consciousness intact after having your brain removed. Sure, you can keep the brain step to keep you vital organs running, but without the rest of the brain, you aren't you. Period.

Please feel free to call me on this by doing a self-lobotomy.

Dan8267 says

In any case, how the brain creates consciousness is irrelevant.

No, it isn't.

JodyChunder says

Dan8267 says

In any case, how the brain creates consciousness is irrelevant.

No, it isn't.

The question of how the brain creates consciousnesses is most certainly irrelevant to the question of does the brain create consciousnesses. Once can clearly know that the brain does create consciousness without knowing how it does this, just like one can know that your computer creates the images on the screen you are currently looking at without knowing how your computer does this.

bgamall4 says

Look at it this way, Dan.

None of what you say or quote even remotely deals with the indisputable conclusion that any god who would put this girl, who committed suicide to see her daddy, in hell would have to be utterly and despicably evil. It doesn't take a god to see how immoral and unethical that would be.

Dan8267 says

just like one can know that your computer creates the images on the screen you are currently looking at without knowing how your computer does this.

I'm sorry, Dan, but I've said before that any comparisons of the human brain to any operating system in existence is simply facile, at best.

Dan is sometimes no better than the worst right wing trolls on this site. He is not capable of considering the possibility that when the daughter said to her mother ""I want to see dad" that coming from a sick suicidal person that's really the equivalent of simply saying "I want to die."

If you were capable of being honest, and admitting that you can't really get everything that you want to from that one phrase, in other words if for once you had the humility and integrity to say, "you know what you're right," you would be doing yourself a really big favor, just for allowing yourself to have that experience.

But no.

I still agree with this guy (below). Which doesn't mean that we know for certain you are wrong. The problem is we don't know what her thinking is from that one phrase, and yet you're willing to sell the cause you read from some other radical atheist morons, who jump on this tragic situation to sell their message. It's disgusting, and also very transparent to anyone with real common sense and true intelligence.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/10/30/religion-kills-atheists-claim-childs-suicide-proves-teaching-kids-about-god-and-heaven-can-be-deadly/

Little is known about Maria’s religious education or other circumstances she was facing, so it’s not possible to state definitely either way what role faith played in her decision to take her life. Still, that hasn’t stopped some from using tragedy to chime in about the harm they say religion does.

bgamall4 says

If God called you through His gospel, you would have no choice but to believe.

If your fictitious god came to my tea parties, I'd have no choice but to believe. However, he doesn't because he's fictitious. It would be trivial for a god to reveal himself in an unambiguous way. And for a god who had no problems chumming around with humans in the Bronze Age, he sure seems shy today.

Of course, this is besides the point of this thread. If your god and afterlife are real, then the girl's death is not at all tragic. As a contrapositive, if you think the girl's death is tragic, then you do not really believe in the afterlife. So which is it, gbamall4? Are you happy the girl died, or do you disbelieve the afterlife lie?

bgamall4 says

Again, this is a tragedy. This is hurtful to hear about, even. It doesn't change the truth about election in the least.

So you are saying that the girl is burning in hell right now?

Dan8267 says

the fact that the girl's suicide would be perfectly reasonable if the afterlife were real.

JodyChunder says

I'm sorry, Dan, but I've said before that any comparisons of the human brain to any operating system in existence is simply facile, at best.

Computer, not operating system. Those are two entirely different things.

And yes, the human brain is, by definition, a computer. It's a neural network rather than a Turing Machine, however, the two are functionally equivalent as proved by Alan Turning's work.

And yes, the human brain is the creator of consciousness. Altering the brain is altering the mind. Surgical rewiring of the brain can change memories, personalities, and values. This is a simple, scientific fact. See the interesting case of Phineas Gage. Brain damage dramatically changed his personality. If a crude injury can have such a dramatic affect,image what advanced medical science can do when applied with the precision of computer driven engineering. You could rewire a person to be a murderer, an Islamic terrorist, or an devote lover. Such things would not be possible if consciousness were independent of the brain.

marcus says

Dan is sometimes no better than the worst right wing trolls on this site.

Ah, typical Marcus bullshit. Dan makes a damn strong case against something I like. I have no idea how to construct a logical counter-argument. I have no evidence to contradict his. Therefore, I'll call him a troll or arrogant and hope that everyone else reading this is stupid enough to fall for a poisoning of the well.

Trolls disrupt conversations. I have stated my thesis clearly and have defended it against all attacks by specifically pointing out the flaws in the various attacks. That's not what trolls do; it's what a good debater does.

I have not misrepresented anyone's argument in this thread, but I have directly attacked those arguments with razor sharp logic pointing out the contradictions inherent in those arguments. Just because you haven't been able to make even a entry-level counter-argument does not make me a troll. You are just being a sore loser as usual.

marcus says

I still agree with this guy (below).

Much in the same way that Fox News agrees with the "scientists" who say the recent cold spell disproves the myth of global warming.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

the fact that the girl's suicide would be perfectly reasonable if the afterlife were real.

Yeah, you going to argue with that?

If the afterlife is real and god isn't more evil than all the pedophiles in history, then this girl is in heaven right now with her father. She is literally in paradise experiencing nothing but perfect bliss. There is nothing sad about that. And that is the entire point of the lie.

The only thing that makes her death a tragedy is that the lie is a lie and the girl is not in paradise experiencing perfect bliss. She no longer exists and is experiencing nothing. Sure, she would have died eventually, but without the lie of the afterlife, she could have had a wonderful and fulfilling life.

When you are ready to debate the actual core issue, let me know. So far, you keep pussying out of addressing the central issue.

bgamall4 says

No, according to Paul, it would be tragic.

Logic trumps Paul. Contradictions in beliefs is not proof of those beliefs.

Here's an example to simplify it even further.

Premise: All dogs are fury.
Fact: Fido is a dog.
Conclusion: Fido is fury.
Paul: But wait. I don't think Fido is fury.
New Conclusion: Although all dogs are fury and Fido is a dog, Fido is not fury. This statement does not contradict itself because Paul said so.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. You get to pick your premises, but not the consequences of those premises.

marcus says

If you were capable of being honest,

Marcus's fatuous insults, vacuous rants, and pusillanimous attacks reveal what an unctuous clod he is.

bgamall4 says

Dan8267 says

Contradictions in beliefs is not proof of those beliefs.

There is no contradiction in Paul. He is sorrowful for his lost countrymen. He acknowledges that his countrymen are lost. No contradiction there.

I hate to break this to you, but Paul was a hypocritical asshole who's crimes are so horrendous he had to change his name from Saul to escape them. His opinion on matters should hardly carry any weight, even if you assume he was a real person and not yet another fictitious character from the Bible.

Didn't think so.

Dan8267 says

If the afterlife is real and god isn't more evil than all the pedophiles in history, then this girl is in heaven right now with her father. She is literally in paradise experiencing nothing but perfect bliss. There is nothing sad about that. And that is the entire point of the lie.

You should have gone in to sales. Although newsflash. Only the most emotionlly challenged radical atheist buys this bullshit. Bill Maher probably isn't even buying this, and like you he is way over invested in his antireligion dogma.

If you were correct then there should be a long history of Christians commiting suicide to be in heaven.

I notice you haven't addressed the obvious contradiction. How can someone have so much faith in the existence of heaven ? And yet never have learned that it's a major sin on a par with murder to kill oneself ? What, was she raised in some special religion where there's just one afterlife, and everyone gets to go, no matter what they do in this world ?

You also have no response for this.

marcus says

He is not capable of considering the possibility that when the daughter said to her mother ""I want to see dad" that coming from a sick suicidal person that's really the equivalent of simply saying "I want to die."

If you were capable of being honest, and admitting that you can't really get everything that you want to from that one phrase

Can't you just be dignified for once ?

JodyChunder says

Which doesn't mean that we know for certain you are wrong. The problem is we don't know what her thinking is from that one phrase, and yet you're willing to sell the cause you read from some other radical atheist morons, who jump on this tragic situation to sell their message. It's disgusting, and also very transparent to anyone with real common sense and true intelligence.

Dan8267 says

Much in the same way that Fox News agrees with the "scientists" who say the recent cold spell disproves the myth of global warming.

YOu give proof that you eitrher lack integrty, or you think being an internet troll is just good fun and traits like human decency and honesty are meaningless here.

Dan8267 says

Marcus's fatuous insults, vacuous rants, and pusillanimous attacks reveal what an unctuous clod he is.

Acting like a psuedo intellectual doesn't restore your dignity or your integrity.

You keep saying that if you believe in an afterlife, that suicide is rational and logical; its still not. If there's an afterlife - you'll be able to see your loved ones again eventually, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do what you can with this life - make friends, find love; have children; increase your circle of loved ones that you'd be spending your afterlife with.

You also keep saying that the only reason she could possibly have committed suicide is religion, so can't be due to depression. That you're expecting a 12-year-old girl to make a decision based on rational thought and logic, and be 100% truthful in her note. That's not how people work - especially children. And again - even if it was, committing suicide to see her father, also means having to miss her mother and all of her friends who won't be in the afterlife for many years.

The poor girl was depressed. Even as an atheist, when very depressed, suicide could seem rational - ie. I hurt really bad right now, and don't ever believe that things will get better. If I kill myself, I'll cease to be and the pain will stop. But things will get better! There's so much to live for! Losing a loved one hurts for a long time, but eventually you're able to function and enjoy life again! That's all true - but should a depressed 12-year-old be expected to know that, and believe it?

Did religion contribute to her making the decision that she ultimately did? Probably - but it also probably wasn't the only reason - lots of religious kids lose parents at a young age, and most don't decide to kill themselves. And you can't KNOW that that's the reason. Maybe she would have committed suicide anyway, but that made a convenient excuse. Maybe she felt that her mom would appreciate that note more than one saying "It hurts too much to continue living, and just being with you isn't good enough anymore." Maybe she thought she'd actually survive it, and it was an elaborate cry for help.

But you taking her note as 100% gospel seems, well.. rather foolish, for someone not in the habit of believing lies others have written down.

BobDDstryr says

You keep saying that if you believe in an afterlife, that suicide is rational and logical; its still not. If there's an afterlife - you'll be able to see your loved ones again eventually, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do what you can with this life - make friends, find love; have children; increase your circle of loved ones that you'd be spending your afterlife with.

Well said. But you're making too much sense.

BobDDstryr says

Maybe she would have committed suicide anyway, but that made a convenient excuse. Maybe she felt that her mom would appreciate that note more than one saying "It hurts too much to continue living, and just being with you isn't good enough anymore." Maybe she thought she'd actually survive it, and it was an elaborate cry for help.

Another good point. What if her Mom was constantly saying that her dad is in haven but she didn't buy it and was in a sick suicidal state. In that case it seems like a reasonable thng to say to her Mom. In other words "if that's how you cope with dad being gone, hopefully it will work for coping with my being gone too."

That one phrase really tells us very little about whether she really believed she would see her dad. All we really know for sure is that when people kill themselves they are usually in a very sick state.

marcus says

Only the most emotionlly challenged radical atheist buys this bullshit

Just because you say something is bullshit, does not make it so. Notice that you cannot say why it is bullshit, whereas I can easily point out why your statements are bullshit. For example, your entire first paragraph is an assertion and offers no explanation of why one should reject my statements.

marcus says

If you were correct then there should be a long history of Christians commiting suicide to be in heaven.

Hardly. Just because Christians have been hypocrites for millennia does not invalidate my argument.

My argument has consistently been that either
1. The girl's death is not tragic
2. There is no afterlife

Only one of these options is true because the truth of one necessitates the falsehood of the other.

Just because throughout history Christians have said one thing and done another does not invalid the above point.

Once again, you are cowardly skirting around the issue instead of dealing with it directly. That alone illustrates how irrefutable the argument is.

marcus says

I notice you haven't addressed the obvious contradiction. How can someone have so much faith in the existence of heaven ? And yet never have learned that it's a sin.

There is no contradiction. She simply believed she was not sinning by dying to see her dad. And there is plenty of reason to agree with her. Let's look at each possible case.

Case 1: There is no god.
She did not sin. She does not go to hell. There is no afterlife. She does not see dad.

Case 2: There is a god and it is less evil than a pedophile.
Any god who would put this girl in hell is more evil than a pedophile. Therefore, in this case, she does not go to hell whether or not it was a "sin". Of course, one could also argue that it's not a sin if she didn't believe it was a sin, i.e., she had no evil intention, but that's academic since only a despicably evil god would send this little girl to hell anyway.

Case 3: There is a god and it is more evil than a pedophile.
Well, all bets are off. You can live a good life and do everything right, and that bastard god will still have demons rape your ass for shits and giggles. He's fucking evil, so being good does not mean you won't burn in hell. Actually, being evil is probably the best way to get into heaven.

In case 1 and 2, she did not sin. In case 2, her strategy was optimal. In case 3, she should have just slaughtered a bunch of babies on her way out to appease the evil god.

marcus says

You also have no response for this.

Oh, did I completely trump your ass when I called your bluff? Perhaps next time you should ask me the question before assuming I would have no response.

By the way, if I don't actually have a solution to a problem, I'll be the first to admit it. There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" when that's the truth. There is something wrong with presenting something as the truth that isn't.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

Much in the same way that Fox News agrees with the "scientists" who say the recent cold spell disproves the myth of global warming.

YOu give proof that you eitrher lack integrty, or you think being an internet troll is just good fun and traits like human decency and honesty are meaningless here.

Honey, if the shoe fits...

Despite hating Fox News, you act a lot like it. You substitute talking points for facts just like Fox News does.

No religion is going to admit that it is at best worthless and at worst lethal to children. Of course they are going to contradict the facts just like Big Tobacco did about smoking and cancer and Big Energy did about fossil fuels and climate change.

marcus says

Acting like a psuedo intellectual doesn't restore your dignity or your integrity.

1 This psuedo intellectual has kicked your ass in every debate -- and I use the term loosely -- we've ever had.
2. Just because you say a person has no dignity or integrity doesn't make it so. You keep thinking you can change reality by repeating lies. Again, you're like Fox News.

Dan8267 says

There is something wrong with presenting something as the truth that isn't.

Do you mean like presenting one little phrase in a suicde note about wanting to see her dad, as proof that she believed she would literally see him again.

That from that you have proof that wasn't only for her mothers benefit (who probably constantly said that her father was in heaven) and that it wasn't a way of expressing that she was sick and wanted to die in a way that would as unpainful for her mother as possible.

A little more considering what others say, and a little less of your self involved convoluted laughable "logic" would go a long way here, but hey, I'm not surprised.

Dan8267 says

You keep thinking you can change reality by repeating lies. Again, you're like Fox News.

Really ? Interesting.

My point is only that you don't know why the girl killed herself. You don't know that having a real belief she would see her father again was her reason. It's all based on one phrase in a suicide note. You can dance all you want, your initial assumption is faulty.

This is really all I have to say on this, and it's self evident and obviously true.

All your supposed logic impresses nobody. I honestly do not believe that you are impressed with yourself here. If I were in your shoes now, I would own up to the truth, but...hey if you're impressed with your performance in this debate, congratulations.

BobDDstryr says

You keep saying that if you believe in an afterlife, that suicide is rational and logical; its still not. If there's an afterlife - you'll be able to see your loved ones again eventually, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do what you can with this life - make friends, find love; have children; increase your circle of loved ones that you'd be spending your afterlife with.

Premise: The Christian afterlife exists.

All babies are born innocent. If they die after baptism, they go straight to heaven. If they live a normal life, they might commit a mortal sin and go to hell. There is nothing in an 80-year Earthly life that can even remotely approach the gravity of an eternity in paradise or an eternity in hell. Therefore, it is an moral imperative to baptize and kill all babies immediately after birth.

If you do not accept this conclusion, then you do not accept the premise. You might lie to yourself and others about this, but the contradiction is clear. Unless you honestly believe that murdering babies is moral because you are saving them from eternal damnation, then you do not deep down believe in the afterlife.

And that's an afterlife in which you can make friends and find love. As for children, what parent could possibly enjoy heaven if her child were in hell? Certainly no parent who loves as god says. So if any parent is in heaven, so must all the parent's children, and by iteration, all her descendants. And what loving child could enjoy heaven, if her parent were in hell? By the same logic, all ancestors must also be in heaven. And holy shit, this goes all the way back to single-celled organisms. Yet another flaw in the very concept of a paradise in an afterlife.

BobDDstryr says

You also keep saying that the only reason she could possibly have committed suicide is religion, so can't be due to depression.

The article and the girl's note are quite clear. To try to change the facts is a dodge. Address the core issue: either the girl's death is not tragic, or the afterlife is not real.

BobDDstryr says

If I kill myself, I'll cease to be and the pain will stop. But things will get better! There's so much to live for! Losing a loved one hurts for a long time, but eventually you're able to function and enjoy life again! That's all true - but should a depressed 12-year-old be expected to know that, and believe it?

Again, all this assumes that the afterlife is a lie. That's my point.

BobDDstryr says

But you taking her note as 100% gospel seems, well.. rather foolish, for someone not in the habit of believing lies others have written down.

Oh, but you see, even if I accepted your dodge, even if this were a hypothetical situation, nothing would change.

The fact that the girl's death is not a tragedy if the afterlife were real is still true regardless of the girl's intent or state of mind. So even if I granted the bullshit factual change of the girl's motives, that would not make a difference. The contradiction inherent in the afterlife lie remains. This contradiction has always existed even before this girl committed suicide. The contradiction would not go away even if you traveled back in time and stopped the girl from committing suicide and she later was happy.

So regardless of whether or not you inflict some mental damage into this girl or change her reasons for dying, it's still not a tragedy if the afterlife is real and the afterlife is a lie if her death is a tragedy.

marcus says

Well said. But you're making too much sense.

Translation: Finally, someone backed me up. I better support him quickly because I'm losing this battle.

bgamall4 says

Christ was the perfect sacrifice and wiped away all that Paul did, something that the blood of bulls and goats could not do.

Again, this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

If the afterlife is real, the girl's death is not tragic. If the girl's death is tragic, the afterlife cannot be real.

No amount of irrelevant Bible thumping is going to address that point.