patrick.net

errc says

I work too damn hard to have my tax dollars wasted on something so stupid

Mexicans will pay for it. They will also benefit greatly when the flow of drugs into the US from Mexico is stopped and the cartels in Mexico lose their source of income.

zzyzzx says

Let private citizens fund private enterprise to build it with their private funds. A publicly funded wall is nothing less than massive socialism.

It can be funded from remittances going to Mexico or a tariff on Mexican goods entering the US.

zzyzzx says

Mexicans will pay for it. They will also benefit greatly when the flow of drugs into the US from Mexico is stopped and the cartels in Mexico lose their source of income.

I keep seeing reports of tunnels, which a wall might not stop, but a cheaper and more effective way to stop the cartels would be to end the drug "war". We've been arming at least two supposedly opposite sides of that war, between the Mérida Initiative and Fast&Furious, so the body count south of the border is essentially made in USA.

The funny thing is that if Trump or anyone here wanted to really hinder illegal immigration, they could do it for a LOT less than $20B and without a wall.

Simply enforce the laws already on the books against companies and executives hiring illegals. If Mexicans know that it will be impossible to get a job in the US, they won't come here.

You don't see Trump advocating for that, however. Because it doesn't have the same effect on the right wing crazies as building a 10 foot wall does...

tatupu70 says

The funny thing is that if Trump or anyone here wanted to really hinder illegal immigration, they could do it for a LOT less than $20B and without a wall.

It's much simpler to explain all this if you suppose that Trump is lying.

We could also tax Taco Bell to help pay for it.

curious2 says

I keep seeing reports of tunnels, which a wall might not stop,

Most of the "illegal immigrants" arrived on airplanes and then just didn't leave when their visas expired. Airplanes fly at 36,000 feet. Unless you build a wall over 40,000 feet tall, you aren't going to stop all those American Airlines and Delta flights carrying Mexicans into the United States.

Building such a wall is not technologically possible, would fuck up climate if built, and would cost about several thousand times the entire GDP of the United States. The wall is a just plain stupid idea.

I still think we should just send in our military and take over Mexico. Annex it as 51st state to the union.

Few month of martial law and suspended human rights and we can clear up all the drug and gangs pretty fast.

cheaper to just declare the first 20 miles inside the us border a military test missile range, then flood the area with cheap drones programmed to shoot on site anything that moves...then turn the whole fucker over to skynet for logistics...

If we used illegal aliens to build the wall, it would be a lot cheaper.

thunderlips11 says

How? You build the wall, or we abrogate NAFTA.

you and precisely zero economists think this is a good idea. Trade wars hurt both countries, so as is par for the course for trump supporters and most posters on here, you are either real fucking stupid, or blinded by hubris and bigotry. No other option. FortWayne says

still think we should just send in our military and take over Mexico. Annex it as 51st state to the union.

Few month of martial law and suspended human rights and we can clear up all the drug and gangs pretty fast.

fortwhine, you don't get to start a sentence with "I think" ever. You've never thought in your life. But, just because I'm feeling generous, I'll actually respond to you, an intellectual gift to an inferior, if you will: How has nation building been working out for the USA in Iraq? Afghanistan? SO, you really think taking on another is a good idea?

AND if we made mexico the 51st state, then all 150 millions would become AMERICANS with free right to travel anywhere else in the US they chose, which seems to run counter to the normal racist sentiment on here, that you guys want to send Mexicans out of here.

Mexicans will pay for it. They will also benefit greatly when the flow of drugs into the US from Mexico is stopped and the cartels in Mexico lose their source of income.

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The wall will do nothing to stop the flow of drugs. Its not like theyre walking drugs across the open border now. They grow pot here in the states, and they bring hard drugs in small amounts with mules through the normal border crossings

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

you and precisely zero economists think this is a good idea.

Are those the 99% of economists that totally failed to predict the 2008 Great Recession, the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression, and indeed were calling for blue skies and endless growth in the days before hand? The ones who claimed NAFTA and MFN with China would result in countless High Tech Jobs of the Future and a Billion New Customers for American Manufacturers making things in America with American Employees?

Most Economists to me are just "Capitalist Studies" pracitioners the way Feminists have "Gender Studies". Their job is to be the Court Astrologers of the One Percent's Temple.

If the predictive power of a theory is it's best strength, then modern Economics is on par with Alchemy. Fulminate and Calicify the Aqua Regia in a solution of Camphor and Zinc.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Trade wars hurt both countries

Total Trade Appeasement has been great for China and Japan. Huge tariffs on us, while we have low tariffs on them, and it never changes, they never reciprocate, because the Entrail Readers in Economics insist reciprocity would be counter-productive. Not doing jack shit and taking it in the Ass isn't working, either.

thunderlips11 says

Total Trade Appeasement has been great for China and Japan

And the 1% that owns all the multinational corporations.

"Retraining" workers sounds great until you realize there are no jobs to "retrain" into...

The most important economic statistics that we should be concerned with are unemployment and real wages/real wage growth. An economy with low unemployment and wage growth will be fine even if there is some inflation. We need jobs a lot more than we need lower priced goods.

A wall is a barrier, an obstacle, not a foolproof mechanism. It's a lot easier just to drive 4x4s loaded with coke and dope over the border, than it is to excavate a massive tunnel system. The more effort drug dealers and people smugglers have to expend on crossing the border, the less of it there will be.

Also, we need jobs like crazy for college grads in this country, so adding 10,000 border people isn't bad. Compared to other countries, including EU members, our border staffing is pitifully small.

Finally, we need more centralization of police and like every other country in the world including France, Japan and Germany, empower police to check on and detain those with overstayed visas. And tie Driver's License expirations to Visa expirations. I mean, duh, right?

Even a crappy chain link is working well for the Hungarians.

The more effort drug dealers and people smugglers have to expend on crossing the border, the less of it there will be.

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Are you sure about this? Sounds like you aren't addressing the demand, mainly looking to try and hinder the supply. Which tends to make things more expensive and costly. If it pays better, people will stop doing it?

errc says

Are you sure about this? Sounds like you aren't addressing the demand, mainly looking to try and hinder the supply. Which tends to make things more expensive and costly. If it pays better, people will stop doing it?

Yup, but while a blockade causes demand pricing to skyrocket, it does require more effort on the part of the suppliers, and the blockade does stop a lot of the supply.

thunderlips11 says

A wall is a barrier, an obstacle, not a foolproof mechanism. It's a lot easier just to drive 4x4s loaded with coke and dope over the border, than it is to excavate a massive tunnel system. The more effort drug dealers and people smugglers have to expend on crossing the border, the less of it there will be.

I actually was working for a defense contractor when the "war on drugs" began. We modeled and ran analysis of how much effect doing everything possible would have on the price of various drugs in the USA.

Marijuana: pretty good effect. you have to drive a truck full, or at least a trunk full to make enough profit to have a viable business. enhanced searching of borders, stopping illegal truck crossings, and searching the hell out of northern california grow areas could make a difference, perhaps doubling the street price of pot.

Cocaine and heroin? no chance in hell. A few cubic inches of pure product in either case make so much money, that there is simply no way in hell to ever make even a small dent in the smuggling trade. Given that hard work in most of mexico or south america makes a person a few hundred dollars a month, and cartels can afford to pay people thousands of dollars to take one flight, with half a pound of product hidden somewhere, you have infinite people willing to carry, and even if only 1 out of 10 made it to the US, which is a laughable suggestion, you could still easily get as much as needed here to make hundreds of millions of dollars.
You might want to drive down and cross/sit for hours at the border, see how many people and vehicles cross. There is no way possible to search it all. Not to mention drones flying over border fences, etc, etc. etc.

Our most optimistic data showed that, throwing virtually infinite resources at it, you might, as in probably not, raise the street price by 10%.

Meth is made in the good old USA, so good luck with that!

Now here we are, 25 years later, and our initial report couldn't have been proven more true. Of course, just like on this forum, the phd scientists and mathematicians were ignored, and off to war on drugs we went!

A good article in today's NYTimes about this very subject. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/us/politics/donald-trump-immigration.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0 showing what the reality is for building a wall. Of course there is the problem of the NYTimes being written on a 6th grade reading level which means the trump and wall supporters will find it far beyond their intellectual capacity and reading ability, gaining no knowledge or insight from their attempts to comprehend anything not written on a fox news level.

thunderlips11 says

It's impossible to build a wall along the flat semi-arid plains flanking the Rio Grande - have you seen the terrain? And it would take such advanced technology.

It's not like the Great Wall is almost double the length of the entire US-Mexican border - of actual wall, not just defensive positions and fortified places.

It's not like the great wall prevented centuries of invaders from going through the great wall like shit through a goose. Trumps great wall won't fare any better.

bob2356 says

It's not like the great wall prevented centuries of invaders from going through the great wall like shit through a goose. Trumps great wall won't fare any better.

As I said, it won't be 100% effective. The Great Wall's primary function was to help keep out small opportunistic raiding bands, and delay larger forces for a while until the Chinese could bring up their own military. And often, on the way out, loaded down with booty trying to get it move it over the wall, the Mongols would be caught by the Chinese.

The "Wall isn't 100% effective so don't bother" is a fallacy of the excluded middle.

$20B one time is nothing in a $4T/year budget, especially when we've paid for various wars and interventions without a blink.

Nothing. You can still sail around it dig underneath it or simple break through it.

Coast Guard has radar, digging is expensive and time consuming. Breaking through would be difficult on a monitored wall. Again, the more difficult you make it to enter, the more resources the people and drug smugglers have to expend to get around it.

PCGyver says

And why would anybody remit if US government is going to take it. Wouldn't they just find another way around that?

Taxing Remittances are a major source of income for... Mexico. Taxing it is of the top three sources of income for that country. Also, remittances are Mexicans making money in the US, but not spending it in the US economy.
http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2016-02-02/mexico-remittances-nearly-248b-in-2015-topping-oil-income

Mexican and US Elites profit from outsourcing, both by labor arbitrage on the US side, enriching the 1% at the expense of the millions of working poor, and the Mexican 1%ers by redistributing remittances via taxation spent on themselves via Mexican government contracts. Additionally Mexican and US finance companies controlled by Mexican and US Elites profit from remittance fees.

Yup, but while a blockade causes demand pricing to skyrocket, it does require more effort on the part of the suppliers, and the blockade does stop a lot of the supply.

---------------

You usually seem well versed on topics you post about, but you have this one wrong wrt drugs.

How much marijuana do you think is being imported (from Mexico) to the states at this point?
Is that even a problem worth solving?

On white powdery, more dangerous drugs, you are also incorrect. A wall along the Mexican border has ZERO chance at slowing their flow. They aren't being imported by illegals at the unwalled border, anyways. As someone else pointed out, individuals bring "small" amounts in through the border checkpoints now, along with infinite other ways for these drugs to enter the country

Ironman says

What happened, did your subscriptions to Mother Jones, ThinkProgress and Salon expire?

Sorry you are confused, a permanent condition, about other people's reading habits, but I don't even know what 2 of the 3 are and have never even read a single issue of any of them. Unlike you I actually graduated 6th grade and am not limited to publications that only use words with 2 syllables or less.

Is being a loser something people like you have to train for or does it come naturally? I always wanted to know and while I have the worlds foremost expert on the subject available I thought I would ask.

thunderlips11 says

$20B one time is nothing in a $4T/year budget, especially when we've paid for various wars and interventions without a blink.

$20B isn't even the starting bid. Anyone that believes that number is a fool. Again, why spend dime 1? Start enforcing the laws against employers until there a no jobs for illegals, they will leave. Dope isn't coming across the border in 4x4's, it's coming through border checkpoints in tractor trailers. A wall will have zero effect on drug trafficking. You've got your head stuck up the wrong end of the camel.

I count 3, 3, 2. thus proving 6th grade literacy has gone to hell ever since the teachers unionized...

bob2356 says

Ironman says

What happened, did your subscriptions to Mother Jones, ThinkProgress and Salon expire?

Sorry you are confused, a permanent condition, about other people's reading habits, but I don't even know what 2 of the 3 are and have never even read a single issue of any of them. Unlike you I actually graduated 6th grade and am not limited to publications that only use words with 2 syllables or less.

Xanthidae says

I count 3, 3, 2. thus proving 6th grade literacy has gone to hell ever since the teachers unionized...

fyi--Mother Jones is two words.

tatupu70 says

Xanthidae says

I count 3, 3, 2. thus proving 6th grade literacy has gone to hell ever since the teachers unionized...

fyi--Mother Jones is two words.

Apparently it has gone really to hell. The man with crabs didn't even have to use the fingers on the other hand and still got it wrong.