patrick.net

FP says

The difference is not only early specialization, Marcus. The math and science education in the US (in the schools, not the universities) is simply a disaster.

I am not surprised that you don't understand. I talked with several math teachers in our district - good meaning and relatively competent (as far as the subject, math, goes) guys. However, they cannot comprehend how poor the teaching approach here is. They have never seen any better and just cannot imagine who good math and science education can be when done properly.

You are barking up the wrong tree. Even though I'd love to take a jab at Ol' Marcus, he teaches in LAUSD and that means like 50% of his students are Illegal aliens...er undocumented immigrants...er immigrants. Whatever, theyre all from Mexico, their parents are unable and unwilling to speak english, and pretty good chance their really dumb anyways. So they are like the worst of the worst students. Good luck teaching them anything at all, let alone math.

Not true at all. Not all LAUSD schools fit your description. There are magnets, and there are many 2nd third and fourth generation latino kids that don't fit your (racist) description at all.

Fucking White Male says

that means like 50% of his students are Illegal aliens...er undocumented immigrants...er immigrants. Whatever, theyre all from Mexico, their parents are unable and unwilling to speak english, and pretty good chance their really dumb anyways.

Nice: "their really dumb anyways"

Years ago when I worked with a lot of Mexicans in restaurants I learned to respect a lot of people that have different kinds of skills that I don't have, even if they aren't academically inclined. Such as a line cook that can keep track of 15 things at once without fucking any of them up. We're talking some serious skills that I could never have.

marcus says

You are actually kind of a good example what's fucked up about American culture. Typical American, you have the arrogance to think you know more about the problems of our education system than most educators.

I am an immigrant from EU. I have been a student and have taught (at University level) both here and abroad. We had a discussion on this topic before. Have you forgotten?

You, actually, much more than me, exemplify what is wrong with the American culture. Instead of taking into consideration the opinion of people like me, who bring a different perspective, you assume that it is irrelevant. Because America is so special that what is being done and has shown to work in other countries, cannot possibly be applied here. Right? Same with your education, same with your health care system.

marcus says

Do you really think it's the quality of instruction that causes those Russian, Indian and Chinese children to have such good study habits and work ethic ?

Do you think quality and methodology of instruction does not matter? What happens when you take smart kids with good study habits and put them in a math class which is boring and/or where the teacher does not teach? What happens when you keep them confused about the most elementary concepts? What happens when they cannot see the big picture of what they are studying? What happens when today's test is on a material randomly selected from what they studied years ago?

I will tell you what happens - they start to hate the subject!

FP says

Do you think quality and methodology of instruction does not matter? What happens when you take smart kids with good study habits and put them in a math class which is boring and/or where the teacher does not teach? What happens when you keep them confused about the most elementary concepts? What happens when they cannot see the big picture of what they are studying? What happens when today's test is on a material randomly selected from what they studied years ago?

I will tell you what happens - they start to hate the subject!

You have no clue.

IT's true that sometimes in the American system, students get bored and or turned off. But the most likely reason that will happen in an American Math class is becasue they are in a class with a bunch of students with lower ability levels, and the teacher is not going to direct his or her instruction to the 3 brightest students at the detriment of the majority of a class that is also larger than it should be.. Math needs to be tracked (and it is) to a great extent. But not nearly the way it is in countries where you literally can major in Mathematics as a child if you're moderately (or more) gifted. But at the same time, I'm not a proponent of rushing Math for the masses. For a while we had too many students getting to AP Calculus in the 10th grade. (Often) Better to build a strong foundation and get there a year or two later. Common core is going to reverse that alittle, although who knows if it will last.

FP says

Instead of taking into consideration the opinion of people like me

I fully understand your opinion. It's extremely arrogant and misguided. Your opinion is all about you. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong. IT's just that the extent that you make everything all about you prevents you from seeing a bigger more complex picture. So, as much as I understand your opinion, and even agree with parts of it, it's not particularly interesting to me.

marcus says

You have no clue.

It is based on my observations and experience, so I do indeed have a clue.

marcus says

But the most likely reason that will happen in an American Math class is becasue they are in a class with a bunch of students with lower ability levels, and the teacher is not going to direct his or her instruction to the 3 brightest students at the detriment of the majority of a class that is also larger than it should be..

What I have seen is that they get turned off because they are confused about very basic things. They are confused because the teacher is not teaching (this is CPM for you).

Read the article I linked above and you'll see other reasons for why they get bored, related to how you teach the subject.

marcus says

Better to build a strong foundation and get there a year or two later.

But you are not building a strong foundation, even though you are taking many more years (arithmetic up to grade 8??). Do you know that in the Soviet Union school was only 10 years? And classes only in the morning. Here we have 13 years of schooling (with mandatory kindergarten), morning and afternoon (which is part of the problem, btw) and yet our students end up with much weaker math education.

marcus says

I fully understand your opinion.

you understand shit

marcus says

IT's just that the extent that you make everything all about you prevents you from seeing a bigger more complex picture.

I discuss the problems that I have encountered. I do not claim that there no other issues, however, they do not justify or explain the problems that I criticize.

There are countries which conduct (or have conducted) math and science education a lot better that in the US. Learn from them.

marcus says

t's not particularly interesting to me.

Well, I am telling you that:
1) Your textbooks suck (big time!!!)
2) Your curriculum sucks
3) Your teaching approach sucks (e.g. CPM)
4) Many of your teachers are unqualified

If you think these things are irrelevant for the overall math education, I wonder what you think is.

This is why we have to give more and more money to teacher's unions. If they had a lot more money, maybe the students would learn a little more math.

FP says

marcus says

I fully understand your opinion.

you understand shit

marcus, I apologize for this

FP says

FP says

marcus says

I fully understand your opinion.

you understand shit

marcus, I apologize for this

Did your wife step in and make you play nice?

Eastern Europeans...

Remember, getting the answers right on the test is more critical to their survival there compared to here where wealth is just distributed and handed over no matter how badly someone scores on their standardized testing. No Obama, Hillary, Pelosi, there to kill people's motivation to succeed.

marcus says

Not true at all. Not all LAUSD schools fit your description. There are magnets, and there are many 2nd third and fourth generation latino kids that don't fit your (racist) description at all.

Fucking White Male says

that means like 50% of his students are Illegal aliens...er undocumented immigrants...er immigrants. Whatever, theyre all from Mexico, their parents are unable and unwilling to speak english, and pretty good chance their really dumb anyways.

Nearly 1 million illegal aliens in Los Angeles county Marcus. Most live in the poorer areas which largely are served by LAUSD, even places like Huntington Park that aren't actually in the city of LA. You do understand numbers and statistics right Marcus?

Now factor in that literally anyone that can afford to send their kids to private schools in LAUSD does so....

And it ain't a pretty picture. A very sizable, and perhaps up to 50% of the students, are children of illegals. Of course we can't know for sure since LAUSD has refused to release that info.

Nice: "their really dumb anyways"

Years ago when I worked with a lot of Mexicans in restaurants I learned to respect a lot of people that have different kinds of skills that I don't have, even if they aren't academically inclined. Such as a line cook that can keep track of 15 things at once without fucking any of them up. We're talking some serious skills that I could never have.

And hence why line cooks make like $12 an hour. Because of their valuable skills. Please don't project your spaziness on others.

When it comes to K-12 teachers, what's troubling is that the salaries are far below what you need to cover cost of living in a place like the Bay Area. So although there are people whose life calling it is to be a teacher, it's safe to say that the job isn't lucrative enough to attract bright minds in expensive area unfortunately.

And yes, there are exceptions to the rule. So don't anyone engage me in the "but but but there are some good teachers" I know there are.

Industries that don't compensate, overwhelmingly don't attract the best and the brightest. Fact of life.

Fucking White Male says

Now factor in that literally anyone that can afford to send their kids to private schools in LAUSD does so....

Another supposed expert with no clue.

Here's an example for you, since we're talking about Math. There are several high schools in LAUSD that are ranked higher,, but this is probably the best one for Math.

https://www.niche.com/k12/los-angeles-center-for-enriched-studies-los-angeles-ca/

BayArea says

Industries that don't compensate overwhelmingly don't attract the best and the brightest.

True, but do you really need the best and brightest to teach math to a kid in highschool? The pdf that FP posted in comment 3 said two important thing, IMO. One was that the soviets used highly trained people as teachers. Another was that the kids were all very motivated to learn, because they knew that education was important to their success. IMO, the motivation is probably the biggest problem. In the US, we think that the borders of the education system are the school property lines. The education system starts at home. Anyone with enough drive and aptitude could learn more math than 99.5% of the population by buying used books for $0.49 + 3.99 shipping from Amazon. Of course a kid needs instruction on how to learn and were to start, but it doesn't take a genius to help a kid figure things out if they are interested in learning.
We do need to pay more if we want really intelligent teachers, but we need to fix some other aspects of our society if we want our kids to be good at math.

CBOEtrader says

He told me they stopped hiring quants from American schools, since they consistently score lower on the initial aptitude tests and entry level training programs. Whereas the eastern european students come in better prepared and more willing to work.

WTF? This doesn't make any sense at all. What initial aptitude tests or entry level training programs? Quants are graduate level people usually PHD's. They have a published thesis. People come from all over the world to get into top level US PHD programs. It's one place that US education really shines.

I don't buy this.

So where are all the eastern european countries that are doing better at math and science? Estonia, which is northern europe and has a population less than San Jose, is the only one that scores higher in both subjects.

The US should do better, but there are many factors involved. If we got rid of the low performing welfare sucking red states the US would be very near the top internationally. http://www.businessinsider.com/best-and-worst-states-at-math-2013-10

What's in the water in Singapore?

Canada, kicking ass.

Those countries put criminal seditious reporters under the damn jail for bad mouthing their country, the countries talents and abilities.
They don't have a party working in their government to handicap their education system to the lowest common denominator, those countries don't hire hot twenty something teachers with no life experience to teach teenagers with raging hormones.

But keep kicking Americans you git those damned bastards back on the plantation. Go on Git! GIT GIT!!!

bob2356 says

What initial aptitude tests or entry level training programs?

Programming and math tests week 1, and derivatives industry applied knowledge at week 10.

bob2356 says

Quants are graduate level people usually PHD's.

You consistently assume you know more than you know. This will always lead you to poor conclusions.

Quants is a broad term. This conversation was regarding entry level quantitative developers. Most of these people have the equivalent of undergrad or masters programs. On eastern Europe I am told they often recruit from tech trade schools.

Our universities are woefully bad at educating developers, especially quantitative developers.

bob2356 says

People come from all over the world to get into top level US PHD programs.

Yup... And many more are staying in their own country to learn coding/math/science without wasting $400k. Top students from these students come out very well educated and without the ego associated to a wasteful credential.

I'm glad you can put your finger on the problem.

Though even in our top programs, the students will be mostly foreign. It is not uncommon for an entire US PHD physics department to have 100% foreign educated grad students. These are the affluent who have the money to attain a superficial credential.

FWIW, all of the best developers I've worked w over my career have been self taught.

Universities can't keep up w technology.

FP says

they cannot comprehend how poor the teaching approach here is

and where everything is reinterpreted within the context of gender/class/sexual orientation/global warming

marcus says

those Russian, Indian and Chinese children to have such good study habits and work ethic ?

They're probably all from normal mother/father families without a lot of drama in their lives who know the importance of good grounding in science and expect their children to toe the line and not primed like a hair-trigger to sue the school or blame the teacher when their kid gets a bad grade. And I'll bet those kids don't act up and disrespect their teachers, either.

If we are so bad, how come we do so well in IMO?

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

Are we really that bad in Math? If so, how come we are doing so well in International Mathematics Olympiad?

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

We finished 1st the last two years and mostly in top 5 the last 3 decades.

BayArea says

When it comes to K-12 teachers, what's troubling is that the salaries are far below what you need to cover cost of living in a place like the Bay Area.

They get enough for the work they do. The HS math teachers in my district don't teach - students are supposed to teach each other under the idiotic CPM program they have implemented. This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching. They also do not grade much because a lot of the work (assignments and tests) is group work.

Several teachers run a tutoring center where where they get supplementary income while doing the work they are supposed to do in the classroom.

bob2356 says

So where are all the eastern european countries that are doing better at math and science? Estonia, which is northern europe and has a population less than San Jose, is the only one that scores higher in both subjects.

This type of rankings are not very telling for several reasons. I'll explain later when I have time.

Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.

Wasn't Prussia part of Eastern Europe? I would think the originators of the docile workers, voracious consumers program would be better at it than us.

rpanic01 says

Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.

Yeah, team left tries to paint poor red-state performance as a "republican" problem, when it is more of a demographic issue. Alabama and missippi have 30 to 40% African American populations, democrat voting areas that drastically drag average performance lower.

YesYNot says

True, but do you really need the best and brightest to teach math to a kid in highschool?

You make a good point. Asking google, I see that the average school teacher salary in the Bay Area is around ~$65K/yr. I guess many teachers supplement their income in the summer time, but still.

http://www1.salary.com/CA/Public-School-Teacher-salary.html

At $65K you are undoubtedly not attracting the best and brightest. But who are you attracting? And how are these people surviving?

What's remarkable is that you can take a place like the Bakersfield where the cost of living might be 1/3 of what it is in SF. But the school teacher salary in SF is only 30% higher.

Because the kids have already realized that they don't need what the US educational system is trying to pawn off on them. You don't need math numbers to go on social services or work at low end jobs that are the most ready slob jobs available to them.

"I don't need this SHIT, and I DON'T want to be here !!" The teachers are beginning to realize that the kids were right all these years and they (the teachers) were wrong. So why try to do a good job, just snatch your 100k a year pay check, go home with your golden benefits, and stroll off into a beautiful tax payer funded retirement.

Good Job America! You never saw it coming. We have distorted the competition here and enslaved a nation so us few can easily get wealthy on the backs of the SLOBS!

rpanic01 says

Certain groups in the US skew down the numbers.

Like perhaps the kids of the 11-40 million illegals?

BayArea says

Asking google, I see that the average school teacher salary in the Bay Area is around ~$65K/yr.

Do you really think there are many full time teaching jobs in the bay area that pay less than $65K/y? In my district HS salaries are usually > $90K. That is not bad for somebody who can start work at age 22 (admittedly at a lower salary) and have a relatively secure job for life with plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.

For comparison, we have 30 year old postdocs, with PhD's from top schools, earning $50-60K/year and no job security whatsoever.

FP says

Do you really think there are many full time teaching jobs in the bay area that pay less than $65K/y?

If the average is $65K, then there should be many making less than $65K. Unless the data is fake.

FP says

In my district HS salaries are usually > $90K

Usually >$90K?
Where?

FP says

plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.

Having been a public school teacher for 10 years, yes we did get MUCH time off during the year with vacation and school breaks, but it was always the same dates each year and the darn students were free at the same time as well...

BayArea says

If the average is $65K, then there should be many making less than $65K. Unless the data is fake.

or maybe the average includes non-full time jobs and/or some other type of special positions

casandra says

FP says

plenty of opportunities for supplemental income and/or vacation time.

Having been a public school teacher for 10 years, yes we did get MUCH time off during the year with vacation and school breaks, but it was always the same dates each year and the darn students were free at the same time as well...

well, it can't be perfect :)

Yeah, I am gonna have to disagree with the characterization that east euro students tend to be more driven and successful. In fact, they are much more likely to throw their youth and life away on drinking, partying and other high risk activities. There's a reason why average russian male lives to under 65 - it starts with deleterious effects stemming from lifestyle choices in the youth. To get a good idea of youth gone bad over there, read "Black Earth City" to see dorm life in medium size city.

The lack of tying everything in to a big picture, with everything a la carte and taught in Isolation, is a major, major problem with schooling.

This isn't just Math, but also Science, History, you name it. You get taught seemingly unrelated packets of information, usually without context, and no big picture.

Math is a big one for "Why is this important? This is just goobleygook, guess i have to learn it anyway."

Or the laughable lies like "Trashmen need Algebra and Geometry" on a school chart I saw once. Even at 12 I knew that was pure BS.

casandra says

So why try to do a good job, just snatch your 100k a year pay check, go home with your golden benefits, and stroll off into a beautiful tax payer funded retirement.

Yes, of course this is how teachers think. They don't even like children, they have no illusions about serving or helping others, they're just killing time til they can get that pension. They find this is what makes them feel fulfilled as a person.

Obviously I'm not serious.

Interestingly this kind of talk is much more prevalent now than it was 40 years ago, when there was far far far far far less pressure on public school teachers.

FP says

This means that I do the teacher's job of teaching.

There are a lot of good parents that think that when they help their children learn that they are simply doing their job, not the teachers job.

But I get it, everything is in comparison to your experience as a child. You were in a different environment with highly motivated students closer to the same Math experience and aptitude level (relative to each other).

Newsflash: For a teacher that knows the Math - teaching in that situation is WAY easier than teaching say algebra one to a mixed group. And yes I'm speaking from experience of having done both.

Another thing you should realize. When your child gets up to the level of classes that aren't required for everyone (i.e. precalc and above), you are going to be less critical. That is unless your child is lacking abilities that you have and you need to blame the school.

About CPM, I have mixed feelings about it. I don't love teaching it. But I see some benefits. IT's definitely not traditional. They over do it a bit on the discovery. Although discovering something rather than just having it put out there is often valuable to the student, relative to learning how to learn. It's also problem solving oriented.

FP says

because a lot of the work (assignments and tests) is group work

Yes, I'm ambivalent on some of this type of thing, but I understand the intent. It's not easy to get students actually putting their understanding in to words. Ask students a good question, and most are likely to want to be passive and wait for someone else to answer (either one of the smartest students or the teacher). Have them figure it out, and learn to work together. I get it you didn't do that when you were coming up. Do you find that you're as good at working with others as you would like to be now ?