patrick.net

rando says

It's very different from government programs like social security, medicaid, medicare in that you are forced to hand over money to private corporations which lobby congress to get legal authorization to take ever more.

Social security and medicare require paying up to $11K per year per person (over 100K income). If you count the employer portion, it's around $18K. It's a bit lower at the moment. What's the penalty for not buying insurance? $700 per adult. So, if you don't want to buy it, the tax penalty is much smaller than the social security / medicare tax. Given the tiny penalty, it's hard to understand why people argue that Obamacare is terrible, but those other programs are good. They are quite similar. Actually, the Obamacare penalty needs to grow to make the thing work, and it should grow without gnashing of teeth by people who are already paying much more for other things.

YesYNot says

Actually, the Obamacare penalty needs to grow to make the thing work,

I think that is what will happen--the penalty may seem small now but will grow much larger.

FortWayne says

That's heart wrenching

There are consequences to voting republican and letting capitalism control essentials like health care.

Dan8267 says

letting capitalism control essentials like health care

Capitalism does not control healthcare. Currently, healthcare is an oligopoly with hidden prices and more state spending than private spending.

Ironically, if they committed a crime like robing a bank with a note, they'd had gotten free health care in jail.

rando says

Capitalism does not control healthcare.

Health insurance, private practices, and hospitals are all capitalistic. The owners could easily publish prices if they wanted to. They don't. It's not the state forcing prices to be hidden. It's the business owners.

YesYNot says

It's enforced by a monetary penalty in the form of a tax. Nobody has had a gun stuck in their face that I've heard of.

You're being purposefully obtuse. That's how your know your argument is completely without value.

Thanks for proving my point.

The story says it was student loan debt that did it. This debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Debt related to health care costs is. He also had not been paying his taxes. I did not read anything about concern over health care costs.

Unstated is whether he is also a victim of racism. A lot of folks who cannot get into medical school will pursue alternate medical careers, i.e., chiropractor, podiatrist, osteopath, etc. This poor fellow was white. Maybe he was denied admission to medical school due to affirmative action racism, and had to settle for chiropractor.

But he must have had mental health issues.

Terrible story. May God rest their souls.

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

That's heart wrenching

There are consequences to voting republican and letting capitalism control essentials like health care.

Obamacare isn't Republican.

But Democrats made those people feel like committing suicide and leaving the orphans to the state is the responsible thing to do. Very grown up right?

Blurtman says

Terrible story. May God rest their souls.

There is no god, and there are no souls. If there were, then death would have no sting. That is the entire purpose of afterlife myths. Of course, if death has no sting, then stories such as this are not tragic. The fact that we all acknowledge this story as tragic proves that deep down inside we all disbelieve the myths we tell ourselves to avoid thinking about death. It's better to acknowledge your mortality and make use of your limited time existing then to persist in a comfortable delusion.

YesYNot says

Strangely, I didn't hear any debate about fixing this from Trump

Trump is working on up front pricing.

I'd like to believe this.

Got a link?

You ignorant sluts! "You gonna learn today!"
Barack Obama sets all medical procedures,equipment & drug prices.
He's been able to hold the Free Market in check.

Don't really know what it had to do with health care. I know more than a few professionals who think that life owes them a lifestyle, rather than accepting what money they actually have. The species comes complete with progressive debt, unpaid taxes, student loans and serial bankruptcies. To see some of them acting rich with late model expensive cars, large homes, and very spendy habits, you might never guess.

These guys just decided to soak every sucker for whatever credit they could get as long as they could, and then check out when the gig was up.

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls.

It's a figure of speech, and expression of sympathy for the death of these troubled folks. And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I hope you aren't one of those proselytizers that want to inflict them on everyone else.

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls

Straight from the maw of the Soviet Union.

Hoping is a waste of time. He just did.
Blurtman says

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls.

It's a figure of speech, and expression of sympathy for the death of these troubled folks. And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I hope you aren't one of those proselytizers that want to inflict them on everyone else.

YesYNot says

Obamacare used revenue from young to subsidize the old and revenue from healthy to subsidize the sick.

I was trying to figure out how you could possibly believe that, but found eventually a way in which the first part is true. American hospitals and drug companies charge 100x more than hospitals and drug companies anywhere else in the world for the same services. The money goes to executives, lobbyists, and shareholders, who tend to be older than the young people whose taxes and future debt burden are paying for all this deficit spending. So, yes, a lot of (mostly older) people are getting paid, mostly at the expense of the young.

As for subsidizing "the sick," I've seen vagrants getting paid apparently by Medicaid practices, if that helps you. Addiction is a type of sick, so maybe those kickbacks are what you meant by subsidizing the sick: Medicaid practices paying vagrants to submit to more tests and prescriptions.

Otherwise, consider an "old" 64yo who gets sick and suffers a night in a hospital and a week of antibiotics. In other countries, that might cost $100 total. Here, it would cost more than $10k. He pays his Obamneycare insurance premium, deductible, copayments, coinsurance, out of pocket maximum, etc. At the end of the day, it costs him $10k. That doesn't sound like much of a subsidy to him. Even if it happens twice in the same winter, he's still paying >10x what he would have paid in Mexico, for example.

Obamneycare is like a high wire act, raising the price of everything even higher than ever before. If you navigate the Byzantine rules, you can end up with out-of-pocket costs similar to what your total retail cost would have been across the border in Mexico. The whole miasma of premiums and "subsidies" are merely corporate welfare, enabling the American system to continue charging more than anywhere else.

If there was a god and there were souls and you felt you were going straight to hell then death would have a galactic sting.
See how this works when one applies a modicum of logic?

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls. If there were, then death would have no sting.

rando says

* There is no upper limit on how high premiums can go.

There are NO cost controls, none. Forcibly enrolling the younger workers has not lowered premiums or costs or even slowed them down one iota.

Catastrophic Medical Care + Cash. The very indigent on medicare. Drugs to be limited to cost + 10%.

That or medicare for all, with private law firms given the right to "Privateer" on corrupt/fraud billing charges and they keep a percentage. They'd be far more effective in busting corrupt hospital admins than the gov.

Blurtman says

And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I hope you aren't one of those proselytizers that want to inflict them on everyone else.

If people didn't believe in false gods and afterlives, then countless people would not have died needlessly including the victims of 9/11 and a teenage girl who committed suicide to see her daddy in heaven.

I'm not the one inflicting beliefs onto victims. That's religion.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

There is no god, and there are no souls

Straight from the maw of the Soviet Union.

Your logic: The leaders of the Soviet Union were atheists, therefore all atheists are Soviets.

The inescapable corollary: The leaders of the Nazis were Christians, therefore all Christians are Nazis.

So which is it? Are you going to admit being wrong or are you going to engage in further hypocrisy?

BlueSardine says

If there was a god and there were souls and you felt you were going straight to hell then death would have a galactic sting.

If the deterrent of an imaginary hell prevented people from doing evil, then the Republican Party would not exist, slavery would have never happened, and the Dark Ages would have been the best time in all of human history.

Empirical results matter.

“It’s absolutely remarkable,” says Jim Molleur, a Maine-based bankruptcy attorney with 20 years of experience. “We’re not getting people with big medical bills, chronically sick people who would hit those lifetime caps or be denied because of pre-existing conditions. They seemed to disappear almost overnight once ACA kicked in.”

"These provisions include mandated coverage for pre-existing conditions and, on most covered benefits, an end to annual and lifetime coverage caps. Aspects of the law, including provisions for young people to be covered by a family policy until age 26, went into effect in 2010 and 2011, before the full rollout of the ACA in 2014."
Republicans benefit from ACA programs,one is one too many Republican Socialist.
They can't pay their own way. I'm sure they can find someone to blame.
Take this socialism away from these Socialists.

http://time.com/money/4765443/obamacare-bankruptcy-decline/

Dan8267 says

I'm not the one inflicting beliefs onto victim

Believing that your beliefs are absolute truth. Intolerance of contrary beliefs. Try looking in the mirror.

Blurtman says

Believing that your beliefs are absolute truth.

I don't believe that. So either you are a fool or a liar.

I am willing to change any belief provided actual evidence shows that it is wrong. I am irrelevant to my beliefs. Unlike you, I'm not egocentric. The messenger, as I've stated countless times, is irrelevant. The square root of two is irrational no matter who proves that.

There is no omnipotent entity because omnipotence is self-contradictory. It does not matter who proves that either.

My beliefs aren't absolute, but logic is and I base my beliefs on logic and evidence. You should do the same.

Dan8267 says

There is no omnipotent entity because omnipotence is self-contradictory.

As you believe. But others believe differently. You are entitled to your beliefs and they, to theirs. Your claim to use logic is no different than anyone else, and is by no means a guarantee that your conclusion is correct.

If the messenger is irrelevant then you have no reason not to consider the postings of the banned.
The fact that you consider them trolls is irrelevant.

Dan8267 says

I am willing to change any belief provided actual evidence shows that it is wrong. I am irrelevant to my beliefs. Unlike you, I'm not egocentric. The messenger, as I've stated countless times, is irrelevant.

Blurtman says

Dan8267 says

There is no omnipotent entity because omnipotence is self-contradictory.

As you believe.

You're statement is as ridiculous as stating that the irrationality of the square root of two is subjective. It is not.

The contradiction of omnipotence is so obvious even a child can understand it.

Can your god make an immovable object? If no, then he is not omnipotent. If yes, then can he move the object? If no, then once more he is not omnipotent. If yes, then you have contradicted that he created an immovable object, and thus he is not omnipotent.

Game. Set. Match. Logic is not subject to your opinions.

BlueSardine says

If the messenger is irrelevant then you have no reason not to consider the postings of the banned.

You trolls have no messages. Flame wars aren't messages. Change your ways if you want to be unbanned. Whining like a little bitch isn't going to get you unbanned.

Being banned by you is considered a positive in these parts.
Please dont unban me.

Dan8267 says

Change your ways if you want to be unbanned.

BlueSardine says

Being banned by you is considered a positive in these parts.

You mean loonyville?

Dan8267 says

You trolls have no messages. Flame wars aren't messages. Change your ways if you want to be unbanned. Whining like a little bitch isn't going to get you unbanned.

Yet another example of your limitless ego to believe that anyone cares if they unbanned by you.

If you consider patrick.net "looneyville", why do you stay around?

Dan8267 says

BlueSardine says

Being banned by you is considered a positive in these parts.

You mean loonyville?

BlueSardine says

If you consider patrick.net "looneyville", why do you stay around?

Another lie told by a thoroughly dishonest person. Even you are not so stupid as to think that is what I meant, which means you are lying to the audience because they think they are stupid enough to fall for such a lie.

It's amazing how readily conservatives will lie about everything.

FortWayne says

Obamacare isn't Republican.

The hell it isn't. It's basically the Republican counterplan to Hillarycare from the 1990s. Why do you hate history so much? What has it ever done to you that you would abuse it so?

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

Obamacare isn't Republican.

The hell it isn't. It's basically the Republican counterplan to Hillarycare from the 1990s. Why do you hate history so much? What has it ever done to you that you would abuse it so?

Who passed it? Obama
Who voted for it? Democrats
Who voted against it? Republicans

Dan, you should get out into real universe at least once in a while.

FortWayne says

Who passed it? Obama

Who voted for it? Democrats

Who voted against it? Republicans

What exactly don't you like about Obamacare? The individual mandate? Who insisted on there being one? The Republicans.

Lack of single payer? Again, the Republicans.

Lack of a public option? Again, the Republicans.

Private insurance companies still fucking you? Again, the Republicans.

Lack of transparent pricing? Again, the Republicans.

The only thing the Democrats did wrong was compromising. They should have given a big fuck you to the Republicans and passed what we all really wanted: nationalized not-for-profit health insurance.

they said it would be cheaper.
they said we could keep our doctors.
they lied about both.
deductables are 100% higher
premiums are much higher
we have unfamiliar doctors now.
we were lied to. bald in your face lies by obama.

Dan8267 says

What exactly don't you like about Obamacare?