patrick.net

There are many interesting things to be learned in watching a forum.

Looking forward to getting anon.patrick.net up soon to see how a totally anonymous forum works. Still grinding through the translation of the php code to node, but getting near the end. Then you see a bunch of subsites of patrick.net.

rando says

subsites of patrick.net.

There's a problem to be aware of. Subsites really only work when you have a sufficient number of users to generate content for the subsites. PatNet does not have enough users for more than two subsites: left.patrick.net and right.patrick.net.

(Insert negative comment about Dan here)

This is dan's problem.
He thinks that the two sentences below define him as one of the 'crazies'.
Yet that is dependent on how one interprets it.
Interpretation #1: Dan has entertainment value. In addition, all of the crazies do also.
Interpretation #2: Dan has entertainment value, so he must be one of the crazies.

I would guess snowflakes with thin skin would always interpret as #2.

Dan8267 says

komputodo says

Dan has entertainment value. All of the "crazies" do.

Again, how is this not exactly what the "uncivl" link is meant for?

The interesting question for me is how to keep people focused on the topic of debate, and not on the individual user.

Leaving out usernames helps in with that, but it also makes people less invested in the forum.

What is the ideal format and set of rules to allow maximum civil expression of ideas while minimizing personal attacks?

BlueSardine says

He thinks that the two sentences below define him as one of the 'crazies'.

The intent is clear.

Deleting history is par for the course for leftists and one of the reasons they are so dangerous. Similar to the SJw's proclaiming Teddy Roosevelt to be racist and wanting to remove his statue.

rando says

The interesting question for me is how to keep people focused on the topic of debate, and not on the individual user.

Leaving out usernames helps in with that, but it also makes people less invested in the forum.

What is the ideal format and set of rules to allow maximum civil expression of ideas while minimizing personal attacks?

Aside from learning from your mistakes, what is the value in a bad investment?

If the only thing keeping people around, is knowing which usernames to fight with, you will never meet your goals of civility and minimizing personal attacks.

They're obviously incompatible

Personally, I seek out opposing ideas and opinions. There's little to no value in piling on with others who share my beliefs. If professional gambling taught me anything, it's that to be successful and find the truth, you absolutely must thoroughly understand the other side, at least as well as you think you understand your own. It's the difference between success and failure

Dan8267 says

That goes against the pettiness in human nature, pettiness that is on ample display on PatNet.

Dan excusing his level 2 uncivil abuse.

rando says

What is the ideal format and set of rules to allow maximum civil expression of ideas while minimizing personal attacks?

Without automated or manual moderation, the users matter far more than the format. Pure anonymity might help, but it might also just give license to the trolls to be complete assholes.

The rules for civil and productive conversation are common sense, but without honest enforcers of the rules, they are worthless. But here's they are anyway.
1. No rudeness.
2. No dishonesty about your opponent's position including straw men.
3. No posting of "facts" you know are false or already debunked lies.
4. No poisoning of the well.

Good luck in getting the trolls to police themselves on these or any other rules. They won't. Civil and productive conversations is the last thing they want.

Rew says

"I'm sad that Dan is censoring me, but I really don't have a good case to make, because what I posted was uncivil."

It fell into Patrick's level 2, which is borderline. Your missing the point here. Who waits for three months, then goes back and revives a thread no one cares about anymore?

Rew says

Couldn't care less. Someone cleaning up a dead thread. (shrug) Doesn't seem like priority feature work ... unless you are ...

... NuttBoxer

NuttBoxer says

For anyone wondering why I care. If I didn't get an email telling me my comments had been jailed, I wouldn't.

NuttBoxer says

Rew says

"I'm sad that Dan is censoring me, but I really don't have a good case to make, because what I posted was uncivil."

It fell into Patrick's level 2, which is borderline. Your missing the point here. Who waits for three months, then goes back and revives a thread no one cares about anymore?

Petty, vindictive people, with far too much time on their hands.

NuttBoxer says

Who waits for three months, then goes back and revives a thread no one cares about anymore?

You are assuming intent. Your assumption is false. Why does it piss you off so anyway? The flagging was valid. Date is irrelevant. And if it pisses you off so much, just stop being a troll. It's real easy.

Dan8267 says

So yes, I'm going to start marking every troll comment as uncivil.

Who defines what a troll comment is... The all powerful DAN! Kneel before his singular grasp on ultimate truth in this universe!!

Seriously, how conceited/delusional can you be to post this stuff?

Dan8267 says

when people mark my far more civil responses to uncivil posts as uncivil, I return the favor to the original post.

THREE MONTHS LATER

NuttBoxer says

Who defines what a troll comment is... The all powerful DAN!

A straw man argument and utter hypocrisy. Plenty of people flag posts as uncivil. I've let far more things slide than they have.

NuttBoxer says

Seriously, how conceited/delusional can you be to post this stuff?

Again, this is exactly what Patrick means by uncivil. Now if I respond by calling you an immature asswipe, you'd mark my response as uncivil. If I then mark your post an uncivil, you'll open a thread to complain like a #whinnyLittleBitch. It is you who are conceited and delusional.

You can't have it both ways. Either every turd fling is allowed and PatNet devolves into a kindergarten and all good content providers leave, or all uncivil comments are flagged and removed. This entire thread and your butthurt demonstrates how effective flagging troll's posts are. The one thing that pisses off trolls is having their trolling deleted.

@Patrick, the solution is probably to have a few trusted users do all the flagging, and have them be very, very aggressive in flagging and deleting posts. Give the moderators two options: flag a post and put it in jail for minor infractions and outright delete posts for major infractions. Also let the moderators block trolls from posting at all for periods of time if they do act uncivil. Start with a week ban, then a month, then a year, then permanent. This is the only way to deal with trolls.

errc says

Petty, vindictive people, with far too much time on their hands.

Pot meet kettle.

Dan8267 says

You are assuming intent.

Dan8267 says

Who waits for three months, then goes back and revives a thread no one cares about anymore?

Please, point out where an assumption exists in that statement?

Ohh, the no one cares part, because you do, obviously. Forget about the first part that shows you have enough time on your hands that you have dug up a three month old post and attempted necrophilia in order to expand your safe space, and win an argument everyone else has forgotten about. Nothing creepy or disturbing about that part at all...

Dan8267 says

Plenty of people flag posts as uncivil.

The ONLY time I've ever marked a post was in response to you marking one of mine. THE ONLY TIME Dan. Anyone else care to chime in on Dan attempting to rationalize away his deviant behavior?

Dan8267 says

Seriously, how conceited/delusional can you be to post this stuff?

rando says

"Only someone like you would believe that." -> not quite civil, but not so awful

Dan8267 says

Now if I respond by calling you an immature asswipe

rando says

"You're a fucktard." -> definitely uncivil

NuttBoxer says

Dan8267 says

So yes, I'm going to start marking every troll comment as uncivil.

Who defines what a troll comment is... The all powerful DAN! Kneel before his singular grasp on ultimate truth in this universe!!

Seriously, how conceited/delusional can you be to post this stuff?

Same person that defines what is funny. I pointed out how bad some of his attempts at humor are, and he was so butthurt about it that he permanently banned me from his threads, lol!

He was both surprised and offended that I shared the obvious truth with him, that 100's of similar posts about fucking goats was not only not funny, but off putting to most people.

He threw a fit, and banned me, somehow defining it as trolling. At least he thought on what I said, and listened to me, because it stopped. But dude is so worried about what others think, and finding a tribe to call home like the conservatives he claims to hate, that he must identify every screen name as friend or foe, and act accordingly.

I don't get it. I couldn't begin to parse through all the screen names, just to emote like a ragging broad over who is my friend and who is my enemy. He regularly says about how user X "hates " him, which I find peculiar. Hate is such a toxic and strong emotion, I could never evoke it upon an internet stranger.

But people are fucking wierd, and most all of them will fight change and self reflection to the death, even if it causes themselves harm. Bizarre behavior indeed

Dan8267 says

If I then mark your post an uncivil, you'll open a thread

Yes. Because anyone who won't let go of something THREE MONTHS LATER, needs to be shamed.

NuttBoxer says

Please

If your butthurt lasts more than an hour, you should see a doctor.

NuttBoxer says

Yes. Because anyone who won't let go of something THREE MONTHS LATER, needs to be shamed.

I didn't even notice the date, because unlike you, I'm not petty and obsessive. And why should I even care about the date? You're the only one with butthurt here, and you deserve it.

@errc I think this is a very bad trend in our society today. No one debates civilly anymore. Everything is a shouting match, and quickly devolves into threats, or acts of violence. I have liked comments by Dan, even after he's banned me. A good comment or post deserves recognition, regardless of who wrote it. I don't think people like Dan understand this kind of rational though. They'll sacrifice the thought for personal, selfish reasons every time.

NuttBoxer says

I don't think people like Dan understand this kind of rational though.

I fully do and I've occasionally like the non-trolling comments of trolls. It's pretty rare though.

Once more you are making false assumptions about me. I'm a die-hard rationalist. You should have figured that out by now.

Dan8267 says

I didn't even notice the date

You are in such denial. There's no way you "just happened" to stumble on a three month old thread. It would have been buried in your email, buried in pagination, buried! That's why they call it zombie threading, because you have to dig it up. The fact that I'm stating such BASIC, OBVIOUS, standards just shows how ridiculous your attempts to excuse your behavior are. I sound like your mom explaining how the internet works to you.

NuttBoxer says

@errc I think this is a very bad trend in our society today. No one debates civilly anymore. Everything is a shouting match, and quickly devolves into threats, or acts of violence. I have liked comments by Dan, even after he's banned me. A good comment or post deserves recognition, regardless of who wrote it. I don't think people like Dan understand this kind of rational though. They'll sacrifice the thought for personal, selfish reasons every time.

You find this to be true in real life? In my experience, people are very civil, in person. It's the Safe Space they enjoy from their keyboard, on the interwebs, that tends to bring about all the uncivil behavior. Although we tend to see things only through our own personal lens, so maybe I'm a rare exception here.

Dan is a smart dude, but he's flawed like all of us. He seems lonely, and insecure, so he doesn't do well with criticism. It's odd because he will type all day about the flaws of tribalism, yet he can't even begin to apply it to himself. We're often our own worst blind spot. Self reflection is a lost art.

When was the last time you were involved in conflict, and your first reaction was "what did I do wrong, and how could I change?" . Rather than always demanding to find fault in everyone and everything else.

Dan8267 says

I fully do and I've occasionally like the non-trolling comments of trolls. It's pretty rare though.

Again, bullshit. Patrick has eliminated the need to assume by sending me an email every time someone likes my comment. And he's never sent me ONE SINGLE EMAIL saying you like my comment Dan. No one is going to back up any of your assertion, because they've never received that email either. You're just a liar, and a creep trying to excuse his creepy, lying, vindictive, hypocritical behavior.

You think me uncivil now? Even though I haven't called you an asswipe, or whiny bitch(see your comments)? One thing Patrick omitted from his levels Dan, is sometimes the truth is harsh, and your earn your uncivil responses.

If there was a metric that showed how often you earned the uncivil response, you would be leading this site.

Dan8267 says

NuttBoxer says

You are in such denial.

No, I'm not, and I have no reason to lie to you because I have zero respect for you and don't give a shit about your opinion. Even if I had paid attention to the date, that would change nothing, you petulant child.

Furthermore, your obsession on this minor event is utterly hypocritical.

Dan, serious question. Why do you think it is that you and only you, have identified so many trolls here at patnet?

Why aren't the same people on your list, identified as trolls by many other users?

No previous names recorded

Dan8267 is banning: Bellingham Bill BlueSardine Blurtman bob2356 CBOEtrader errc FortWayne Fucking White Male GONE Goran_K Heraclitusstudent indigenous komputodo lostand confused Nono NuttBoxer P N Dr Lo R Paralithodes PeopleUnited Quigley Rashomon rpanic01 socal2 SpecialSnowflake Strategist Tenpoundbass The Original Bankster

Off the top of your list, Bellingham Bill? I've never witnessed him troll anyone. On the contrary, he's posted some interesting and informative comments over the years, in his different iterations.

Blue sardines I can see, he's gloated about trolling you before

Bob2356? Certainly a poster that bumps heads with people some times, particularly one of my favorite commenters (Curious2), however I don't see him trolling anyone.

It's an odd list, I see a bunch of people opposing you on the political spectrum, but it's still bizarre. You engage these people regularly. The worst thing about CiC being here was having to see you engage him all day, every day

errc says

You find this to be true in real life?

Violence, no. Although I have seen it in our society in the news. What I do notice is people are quicker to take sides, and less likely to hear each other out. I've certainly done my share of this as well. It's a bad habit I'm working on reversing. I love arguing though, so it's not easy.

Dan8267 says

The rules for civil and productive conversation are common sense, but without honest enforcers of the rules, they are worthless. But here's they are anyway.

1. No rudeness.

2. No dishonesty about your opponent's position including straw men.

3. No posting of "facts" you know are false or already debunked lies.

4. No poisoning of the well.

Translation:
If i don't like it, it must get kicked out.

ROTFLOL....

Dan8267 says

BlueSardine says

He thinks that the two sentences below define him as one of the 'crazies'.

The intent is clear.

Dan8267 says

NuttBoxer says

Who waits for three months, then goes back and revives a thread no one cares about anymore?

You are assuming intent.

NuttBoxer says

What I do notice is people are quicker to take sides, and less likely to hear each other out. I've certainly done my share of this as well. It's a bad habit I'm working on reversing. I love arguing though, so it's not easy.

I'm the same. I love arguing, but should slow down and really listen to the other side more. Sometimes I take positions just to see what kind of reaction I get.

The site really started because of all my arguing about the housing market with my commute buddies on the train to and from SF.

BlueSardine says

This is dan's problem.

He thinks that the two sentences below define him as one of the 'crazies'.

Yet that is dependent on how one interprets it.

Interpretation #1: Dan has entertainment value. In addition, all of the crazies do also.

Interpretation #2: Dan has entertainment value, so he must be one of the crazies.

I would guess snowflakes with thin skin would always interpret as #2.

This reminds me of a line from Gore Vidal's great book LINCOLN, when Abe was talking about a corrupt politician who was accused of stealing. When asked directly by that politician whether he thought he was a thief, Abe replied "I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD STEAL A RED HOT STOVE". The guy went beserk and demanded that he take it back. So Abe replied "I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD NOT STEAL A RED HOT STOVE". That didn't soothe his hurt feelings either.

Dan8267 says

I let most shit slide, but when people mark my far more civil responses to uncivil posts as uncivil, I return the favor to the original post.

What is far more civil in your mind only.

errc says

Bob2356? Certainly a poster that bumps heads with people some times, particularly one of my favorite commenters (Curious2), however I don't see him trolling anyone.

It's an odd list, I see a bunch of people opposing you on the political spectrum, but it's still bizarre.

Nothing bizarre about it. It's a list of people who regularly prove dan wrong.

You really find curious georgies grandiose sweeping generalizations backed up by fact free op ed pieces interesting or useful? Now that's odd.

bob2356 says

errc says

Bob2356? Certainly a poster that bumps heads with people some times, particularly one of my favorite commenters (Curious2), however I don't see him trolling anyone.

It's an odd list, I see a bunch of people opposing you on the political spectrum, but it's still bizarre.

Nothing bizarre about it. It's a list of people who regularly prove dan wrong.

You really find curious georgies grandiose sweeping generalizations backed up by fact free op ed pieces interesting or useful? Now that's odd.

Absolutely. I know that you and Curious are internet enemies (lol), but I find both of your postings interesting.

I try to remain open to the possibility that anyone can have something interesting to share, but one can only waste so much time extending the courtesy to the Fort Wayne's of the world, and their unsubstantiated drubbings of "Liberals ruined everything " or "Muh God doesn't approve!". Especially when they're carrying out their homoerotic fantasies by constantly worrying about Gays and Trans people. Like dude, you're not fooling anyone. You feign outrage over it because it makes your dick hard, and that just doesn't compute in your brain. Grow a set and go give it a try already, rather than obsessing over it 24/7

You regret the things you never try far more than the things you do try

BlueSardine says

You are assuming intent.

Not even remotely the same thing, troll.

You are still the only person that Patrick used the NUKE button on, except maybe CIC if Patrick used it when he banned that asshole.

bob2356 says

What is far more civil in your mind only.

Value judgements are subjective, but mine are based on reality and are justifiable unlike yours.