patrick.net

TwoScoopsMcGee says

even though one of them is an avid critic of the Drug War who doesn't realize the same arguments - based on practical experience - would also apply to Guns.

errc eternally BTFO.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

On this very board, those most critical of the police are also the ones most in favor of Gun Control, even though one of them is an avid critic of the Drug War who doesn't realize the same arguments - based on practical experience - would also apply to Guns. Pointing out those who put forward the PoPo as the alternative to firearms possession as the primary means of defense are the same people who are the most critical of the Police is a valid contradiction to point out. It's no different than pointing out that Feminists are the least attracted to the kind of sweetie-poo, deferential men they otherwise promote as the new preferred Man

As I already have pointed out, there's no contradiction in wanting to reform police tactics and rid the force of bad cops AND wanting to reduce the number of firearms designed solely to maximize damage when in use.

I'd ask you like I've asked all the pro-gun folks on here. The 2nd Amendment talks about "arms". That seemingly includes any and all weaponry. Do you believe citizens have the right to own nuclear weapons? Missiles? Tanks? Surely, you see that a line must be drawn somewhere--it's just a matter of where.

Factoring in that at least half of all US Households own firearms, with the highest firearms ownership rate in the world (a figure nobody disputes), a firearms homicide rate of about 1.8/100k would be pretty low.

——————

Are you suggesting More Guns = More Crime?

joeyjojojunior says

How many people would Paddock have killed from the Mandalay Bay with a knife?

Or a fertilizer bomb. Or a vehicle.

errc says

Are you suggesting More Guns = More Crime?

When I read it, I thought that he was suggesting that Black people aren't Americans.

me123 says

errc says

Are you suggesting More Guns = More Crime?

What are YOU suggesting? You've been asked that question multiple times and ran away.

I was asking a question.

I think it’s long time I reciprocate in kind with you, so I’ll answer the proportionate amount of your questions as you do mine.

Me 1
CiC 0

me123 says

When the 2nd was signed into law, what type of weapons did law enforcement have and what type of weapons did the citizens have?

Do you think the balance of what law enforcement has now is equal to the citizens?

Great--so you think citizens should only have the right to own muskets then?

I think we're all just a little tired of the Leftist dictator types swooping in for gun ban advocacy whenever a national tragedy occurs.
Tim McVeigh still holds the record for mass slaying and he used a truckload of chicken shit to do it.

57 messages and still no "wish list". Sigh.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

This despite mass immigration, much of it from countries in Central America with far higher homicide rates.

So, as long as we're not as bad as some of the Central American shitholes, you're fine with it?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Also, for most of the past 25 years, US firearms ownership has dramatically increased while firearms homicides have decreased.

From 1993 to 1998 firearms ownership went up 10% and firearms homicides dropped by 50%. Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%. Do you have some kind of point because there certainly isn't any correlation to be seen here.

jazz_music says

KimJongUn says

57 messages and still no "wish list". Sigh.

Then that is what they are hoping to get out of this, nothing really. That is an answer.

Actually I gave suggestions and one other commenter gave an answer

Where? All I saw from you is unfocused VS ramblings. And I've acknowledged the only answer I've got earlier in the thread. But I suspect the guy isn't really a Dem....

jazz_music says

but these aren't the flawed arguments you were hoping for.

Thread wasn't much fun for you was it?

It actually turned out much more fun than I hoped for.

bob2356 says

From 1993 to 1998 firearms ownership went up 10% and firearms homicides dropped by 50%. Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%. Do you have some kind of point because there certainly isn't any correlation to

Sure, I can explain it very neatly. Roe v. Wade in the 70s resulted in mass infanticide of black unborn babies over the concurrent years. The last black generation unaffected by this holocaust matured to young adulthood in the early 90s. After then, a large number of "missing" black youth weren't around to commit a disproportionate number of gun homicides.

Quigley says

bob2356 says

From 1993 to 1998 firearms ownership went up 10% and firearms homicides dropped by 50%. Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%. Do you have some kind of point because there certainly isn't any correlation to

Sure, I can explain it very neatly. Roe v. Wade in the 70s resulted in mass infanticide of black unborn babies over the concurrent years. The last black generation unaffected by this holocaust matured to young adulthood in the early 90s. After then, a large number of "missing" black youth weren't around to commit a disproportionate number of gun homicides.

If you want to sit at the table with the adults then you have to pay better attention. This has zero to do the the claim that ever increasing numbers of guns results in ever decreasing gun homicides.

me123 says

bob2356 says

Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%.

Do you know the difference between up and down(decreased)?

Yep perfectly. I'm not going to try to explain such a simple concept to you though. You have zero math or numbers skills as proven many, many times. .

Ban mass shootings!

As an Independent, I’d like to see the #FakeNews media stop with the propaganda. All they ever show is a seemingly endless stream of stories about gun violence. Why don’t they show equal airtime of all the stories where Great Americans defended themselves with their guns?

>errc says

As an Independent, I’d like to see the #FakeNews media stop with the propaganda. All they ever show is a seemingly endless stream of stories about gun violence. Why don’t they show equal airtime of all the stories where Great Americans defended themselves with their guns?

Agreed. When is CNN going to start showing the feel good stories about real Americans shooting bad cops? If that nurse in Utah had only had a gun, the cop wouldn't have dared falsely arrest her.

joeyjojojunior says

>errc says

As an Independent, I’d like to see the #FakeNews media stop with the propaganda. All they ever show is a seemingly endless stream of stories about gun violence. Why don’t they show equal airtime of all the stories where Great Americans defended themselves with their guns?

Agreed. When is CNN going to start showing the feel good stories about real Americans shooting bad cops? If that nurse in Utah had only had a gun, the cop wouldn't have dared falsely arrest her.

There are no bad cops, you Crumb Bumb Lush Creep!

I’m talking about the millions of Great Americans who have all these guns for protection. We never get to hear all the countless stories of them defending themselves with their guns. What gives? Why only an endless stream of instances of people falling victim to gun crimes?

errc says

We never get to hear all the countless stories of them defending themselves with their guns.

Start here:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/the-armed-citizen

bob2356 says

From 1993 to 1998 firearms ownership went up 10% and firearms homicides dropped by 50%. Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%. Do you have some kind of point because there certainly isn't any correlation to be seen here.

You seem to be having issues with percentages. Also, why did you not post this other chart from that page?

http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-more-guns-less-gun-violence-between-1993-and-2013/
It shows homicide rates went down -49%, not the -5% like you stated.

anonymous says

You seem to be having issues with percentages. Also, why did you not post this other chart from that page?

Actually, you seem to be having trouble with dates. 1993 is different than 1998.

Republicans banning bump stocks.

anonymous says

bob2356 says

From 1993 to 1998 firearms ownership went up 10% and firearms homicides dropped by 50%. Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%. Do you have some kind of point because there certainly isn't any correlation to be seen here.

You seem to be having issues with percentages. Also, why did you not post this other chart from that page?

http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-more-guns-less-gun-violence-between-1993-and-2013/
It shows homicide rates went down -49%, not the -5% like you stated.

Ah yes CIC math again. Not only can you not do numbers you can't even do dates. That is the chart I posted and the percentages are clear. There is no correlation between firearms ownership and firearms homicides. The firearms homicide rate has barely moved in 20 years while ownership has skyrocketed. Why doesn't the chart go back another 20 years? Firearm ownership didn't go up much in those 20 years but firearms homicides dropped a lot. It's only if you look at a couple very specific dates and fudge the numbers around that you get the results claimed.

I'm not having any trouble at all with percentages. You are having your usual problem with the concept of changes in the rate of change.

Very odd. The AEI chart doesn't jive at all with the Bureau of ATF manufacturing chart. Anyone want to defend where AEI gets their numbers from? The numbers don't even match the source (congressional research service) they claim as their basis. Having 357 million guns for 315 million people isn't 1.45 guns per person it's 1.1. CIC works for AEI now I guess. Something is very fishy with this chart..

me123 says

The bottom line, bobby, is that your whole narrative of "more guns = more homicides" is just crap. Your own charts prove it. Unfortunately, you want to play semantics with percentages, but sadly, it doesn't change the big false narrative.

Where did I say that? Making shit up as usual. The only false narrative is your favorite chart that claims increased gun ownership correlates to reduced gun homicides. The percentages don't work, not that you have a clue what percentages are. What semantics? Gun homicides have gone down 5.5% in 20 years while ownership has gone up 40%. Right from the chart you posted. It's only if you start with a statistical aberration in the early 90's that the claim of correlation can be made.

You have me confused with someone else. I'm not in favor of gun control. Never said a word in favor of gun control. If people want to spend their money on guns then more power to them, provided they are reasonably sane. I used to own and shoot but don't have time or interest any more. The only control I would like is for everyone to have a back round check for all sales, especially private sales, and all sales to be recorded in a federal data base. If the track disappears with you and the gun is used for a crime then you go to jail.

What I'm in favor of is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. The people pipe lining guns to criminals should be in jail. Period. Any reason you and the NRA are so opposed to doing that? Feeling guilty about something maybe? Who have you sold guns to?

bob2356 says

What I'm in favor of is keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.

How many of the criminals in Chicago are buying their guns legally with background checks?

bob2356 says

The people pipe lining guns to criminals should be in jail.

Is this really a problem, what "percentage" of criminals buy their guns this way?

bob2356 says

From 1993 to 1998 firearms ownership went up 10% and firearms homicides dropped by 50%. Since 1998 firearms ownership has gone up over 50% yet firearms homicides have decreased 5%. Do you have some kind of point because there certainly isn't any correlation to be seen here.

Uh, I was going to respond
me123 says

The bottom line, bobby, is that your whole narrative of "more guns = more homicides" is just crap. Your own charts prove it. Unfortunately, you want to play semantics with percentages, but sadly, it doesn't change the big false narrative.

But it was already done.

At the very, very least, it suggests More Guns != More Homicide.

There are countries with far fewer firearms in private hands per capita that have a far higher homicide rate than the USA.

That’s funny
Booger says

US Population 1993: 260M
US Population 2015: 320M

Per capita, the civilian gun stock has roughly doubled since 1968, from one gun per every two persons to one gun per person.

:
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf Page 14.

So: ~ 25-30% Larger Population, more Guns per capita, yet the Homicide Rate - AND the Firearm Homicide Rate - got cut just about in half.

me123 says

TwoScoopsMcGee says

So: ~ 25-30% Larger Population, more Guns per capita, yet the Homicide Rate - AND the Firearm Homicide Rate - got cut just about in half.

Ya know, you're really going to make bobby and dan cry (or go all out on personal attack and call you a liar).

God I love right wingnut math. Looks like thunderlips has been taking math lessons from cic. Perfect.

The population size is irrelevant to the per capita rate dumbasses.

Why doesn't this table match up to CICs chart? The numbers are different even though it's supposed to be from the same source. OMG if we start at 1998 The murder rate only drops 20%. Start in 1999 and it only drops 5%.

Why was the magic year 1993 chosen by the wingnut/gun nut crowd I wonder? Let's look at a little bigger time frame say 1960 on.



http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Well look at that. The murder rate tripled while the number of guns was going up up up 1960 to 1993. But but but how can that be? The murder rate only goes down when the number of guns goes up. I will be waiting for an explanation from our 2 resident math geniuses on this. Not that anyone will ever see it.

Oh my more fun facts. At this point 3% of the people own over 50% of the guns. https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership-in-america-in-three-charts/ The number of households with guns has been dropping steadily since the magic 1993 date. But but but I was told murders went down because lots of people were buying guns to protect themselves. Bullshit. The big spike in gun ownership rate is actually a small number of people buying lots and lots of guns. Again an explanation from the calculus twins would be nice, but not going to happen.



The gun industry rakes in billions while saps like cic and thunderlips defend and promote them for free. If you look around the poker table and can't find the sucker it's you.

bob2356 says

The population size is irrelevant to the per capita rate dumbasses.

hahahahahah.

Not only did the population increase, the guns per capita in private hands increased as well.

The Gun Ownership by household contradicts manufacturer reported arms sales. However, there are more divorced female households today than before, that generally don't have firearms like married people that used to be far more common.

bob2356 says

Well look at that. The murder rate tripled while the number of guns was going up up up 1960 to 1993. But but but how can that be? The murder rate only goes down when the number of guns goes up. I will be waiting for an explanation from our 2 resident math geniuses on this. Not that anyone will ever see it.

God Bob, you're a math denialist.

Gun Ownership began exploding in the 80s in reaction the Baby-Boomer crime wave. Since the early 90s, the homicide rate has been tanking while the number of civilian firearms sold continues to grow.

Starting in the 90s, concealed firearms laws expanded, by the end of the 90s, the Assault Weapons Ban expired and was not renewed. In the late 2000s gun sales hit all-time records, there was even a .22LR shortage not long ago.

There's absolutely no doubt that the US has the most civilian firearms in the World, and that guns per capita has expanded over the past 40 years, and much of it over the past 25 years as gun laws become more permissive and SCOTUS trims excessive anti-2A laws, like in DC. And yet, our homicide is half of what it was 25 years ago.

We're #1 in the world by far for firearms ownership but nowhere near #1 in homicide.

bob2356 says

Why was the magic year 1993 chosen by the wingnut/gun nut crowd I wonder? Let's look at a little bigger time frame say 1960 on.

Why isn't the magic years of the 2000s chosen by gun control advocates? Is it because guns became even more plentiful, Concealed Carry laws even more permissive and widespread, yet homicides collapsed?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

bob2356 says

The population size is irrelevant to the per capita rate dumbasses.

hahahahahah.

Not only did the population increase, the guns per capita in private hands increased as well.

The Gun Ownership by household contradicts manufacturer reported arms sales. However, there are more divorced female households today than before, that generally don't have firearms like married people that used to be far more common.

Like I said the population increase is irrelevant to the per capita number. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Get another math lesson from CIC and I'm sure you will have it. Math concept that is beyond you number 2 is that the number of households can decrease while the guns per capita increases. It means fewer people are buying guns but buying more of them. This stuff really isn't hard. What is it about rate changes that is simply impossible for you and CIC to grasp.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Gun Ownership began exploding in the 80s in reaction the Baby-Boomer crime wave. Since the early 90s, the homicide rate has been tanking while the number of civilian firearms sold continues to grow.

Starting in the 90s, concealed firearms laws expanded, by the end of the 90s, the Assault Weapons Ban expired and was not renewed. In the late 2000s gun sales hit all-time records, there was even a .22LR shortage not long ago.

There's absolutely no doubt that the US has the most civilian firearms in the World, and that guns per capita has expanded over the past 40 years, and much of it over the past 25 years as gun laws become more permissive and SCOTUS trims excessive anti-2A laws, like in DC. And yet, our homicide is half of what it was 25 years ago.

We're #1 in the world by far for firearms ownership but nowhere near #1 in homicide.

Show me where gun ownership exploded in the 80's. It's not in any of the charts anyone has posted. The charts show a nice steady climb. Lie number 1.
Show me where the assault ban made any difference in gun ownership rates. Lie number 2.

Let's summarize here. Guns sales and ownership rates have climbed steadily since the 40's. From the 60's to 1993 murder rates tripled. From 1993 to 2015 murder rates dropped by 50%. In your pink sky world that represent a correlation between gun ownership rates and murder rates. HaHaHaHaHa.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

bob2356 says

Why was the magic year 1993 chosen by the wingnut/gun nut crowd I wonder? Let's look at a little bigger time frame say 1960 on.

Why isn't the magic years of the 2000s chosen by gun control advocates? Is it because guns became even more plentiful, Concealed Carry laws even more permissive and widespread, yet homicides collapsed?

Murder rates went for 3.6 to 3.4 in the 2000's. A 5% decrease. This is your idea of collapsed? HaHaHaHa times 2. Go ahead, provide any evidence of any kind correlating concealed carry permits with the homicide rates. Grasping for anything at this point aren't you?

I don't favor gun control. Find anywhere I've posted in favor of gun control I just don't favor bullshit in defence of gun ownership. The only gun control I want is tracking of exactly were guns go from legal owner to a criminal. Then put the person who sold a gun to a criminal in jail. Why would any responsible gun owner (like CIC alleges he is) be opposed to that.? Any reason at that you can think of? Why would you oppose it?

Don't even bother to post the tired bullshit that criminals steal guns. It would just prove once again you have no credibility of any kind.

BOOM.

.

That's growth. Here's the estimated number:


Tracking sales using Federal Background Checks:


How's that Homicide Rate doin' in comparison? In must be exploding with all these arms sales.


What would really be beneficial is if we could fix 60% of Homicides that are caused by 13% of the population, by getting that 13% closer to the homicide rate of the other 87%

Here's Gallup's Poll of Households... in contrast to the other one favored by the anti-2A Fake News:


No big moves here.

How is the Authoritarian Left doing convincing people guns are the problem?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The Gun Ownership by household contradicts manufacturer reported arms sales.

Exactly, bobby thinks his chart of ownership is accurate, like people tell Gallup when they call how many guns they own.