patrick.net

bob2356 says

That's great that people are happy about borrowing from their children and grand children rather than paying their own bills.

Wait a minute, you’re saying that if we only paid a LOT more in taxes to balance the current deficit, Congress wouldn’t increase the bill to ensure there would still be a deficit? Strange how we haven’t had a balanced budget since the 90s, even in boom times, no matter if we’ve had Democrats or Republicans in charge. It’s almost like they BOTH want the deficit to continue! As if the deficit was the POINT! Who is to say that it isn’t the point? Whether we pay 20% of our income or 50%, Congress will spend more than we give them.
Is it any wonder that people don’t trust the system? Is it any wonder that people want to give less to an untrustworthy government?

bob2356 says

Opinion means lie? this is your idea of logic?

A personal opinion is now taken as national truth?

Wow, I learn something new...

The truth about the tax cut, our lease cars are free now compared to this time last year.
Thank you President Trump, for the crumbs.

"I learned by watching you!"
(Dad pops kid in the head)

Well that's the shittiest joint I ever seen rolled.
Look it's pregnant, it has stems sticking out of the side, this joint is going to do nothing but run.
It even has seeds in it.

FortWayne says

I got a tax cut. This year I’ll pay about 10k less to government.

I’m not rich, middle class at best. Democrats just hate it when we keep our money instead of giving it to them.

Honest question, how are you getting a $10k tax break? The tax cuts hurt most W-2 earners in CA for the most part with your state income tax percentage going as high as 13. Your property and state income taxes cap at $10k. Show me how it's possible, but if you're getting a $10k tax break, you're not middle class. A $10k savings from these tax cuts is someone making $250k plus very likely in CA which isn't middle class.

These tax "cuts" were meant to hit the high income and property tax, blue states the hardest. And they will. CA, IL, NJ, NY and others. The goal is to flip middle of the road dems over to the other side by showing them how oppressive their state taxes are. I get screwed by it, but it's one of the most brilliant political strategies, ever maybe. Not sure how 2018 plays out election wise, but come 2020 after 2 years of filing taxes under the new rules, blue states anyone thought were untouchable are fair game.

I’m getting over $8k back per year. Love it.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

I’m getting over $8k back per year. Love it.

Not sure if this is sarcasm. I'll ask you like I did FortWayne, how? An $8k SAVINGS or "getting back" is a massive amount of money or income. Unless you're in a zero income tax state AND low property tax state, you'd have to be making $400k plus to see those numbers. The tax brackets were really not reduced all that much when you do the math.

While I love Patnet, let's all be realistic here. If you're making $400k plus a year, you're probably not dicking around here making comments about this. If you're running an actual corporation, paying actual corporate taxes, you're also not here. Again, not a knock on the site, just a fact of having money and having things to do with said money. These claims of 5 figure reductions in taxes just seem a little far fetched.

If you itemized $24k before, the only difference is the actual federal tax rate for the most part. If you itemized more then that and more then $10k was from SALT, you're equal or worse off depending on your income level due to the $10k cap and your location. If you itemized between the $12,700 and the now $24k standard deduction, there's not a chance in hell you're saving almost 5 figures.

Someone needs to explain this to me, honestly. I'm seeing too many claims that there are massive savings. While there are unicorns out there, most of the savings are very modest. The tax cuts were simply for the big corps. Not you or I posting here on Patnet. Most will come home with more money, but unless you guys are just bored and uber wealthy, not a chance most here are even touching 5 figures savings in Fed taxes with the new tax plan.

I’m not borrowing. I earned it.

It’s not my fault government refuses to live within taxes they get. Government spending needs a cut.

bob2356 says

FortWayne says

I got a tax cut. This year I’ll pay about 10k less to government.

That's great that people are happy about borrowing from their children and grand children rather than paying their own bills.

AMT gone, my tax bracket went down. I did nothing special. That’s not much, some of my clients are going to be saving 100k plus this year. Very successful people, good businesses.

Gonna invest into new equipment likely this year.

WookieMan says

FortWayne says

I got a tax cut. This year I’ll pay about 10k less to government.

I’m not rich, middle class at best. Democrats just hate it when we keep our money instead of giving it to them.

Honest question, how are you getting a $10k tax break? The tax cuts hurt most W-2 earners in CA for the most part with your state income tax percentage going as high as 13. Your property and state income taxes cap at $10k. Show me how it's possible, but if you're getting a $10k tax break, you're not middle class. A $10k savings from these tax cuts is someone making $250k plus very likely in CA which isn't middle class.

These tax "cuts" were meant to hit the high income and property tax, blue states the hardest. And they will. CA, IL, NJ, NY and others. The goal is to flip middle of the road dems over to the other side by showing them how oppressive their state taxes are. I get scr...

FortWayne says

I’m not rich, middle class at best.

FortWayne says

AMT gone

Lol, seriously? You do understand that those two quotes can't be used by the same person, right?

Also, from my understanding AMT is in place of the typical tax brackets with a higher standard deduction. So a whole lot more taxed at 0% before you start paying the higher AMT. Still not sure where you're getting a $10k tax break being middle class. Unless you're not middle class?

I'll throw you a bone and say middle class is $100k in family income ($58k or so is the actual median/middle class family income). Not a chance in hell a middle class person is saving $10k. Or paying AMT.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

I’m getting over $8k back per year.

Based on quick math, I'll also be saving around $8K - $10K next year too.

I'm sorry, the tax cut is effective for tax year beginning 1.1.18, which means 2018 taxes are filed and paid in 2019. How would you know how much savings there are when the year is not even 1/3 complete?

If you got a refund or whatever savings being claimed. It's based on old law.

My tax rate pretty much will be same as last year. Lower federal tax bracket took the tax right around amt. Salt was never a deduction anyway. Happy for Floridians and texans which should benefit.

Don't really have issue with eliminating salt deduction. It's kinda ridiculous that state taxes are subsidized by federal. It's like I'll tax you 1000 but the federal will pay you back 370. Feds just figured that one out? Blue state taxes are ridiculous because it's been fed will pay for it. It will make it more difficult for ca and local to introduce more taxes.

SFace says

I'm sorry, the tax cut is effective for tax year beginning 1.1.18, which means 2018 taxes are filed and paid in 2019. How would you know how much savings there are when the year is not even 1/3 complete?

Because the outline of the plan, along with tax rates have been published. There are numerous online calculators available that will tell you your approximate tax liability under the new plan.

You should use that Smartphone for something useful, instead of just looking up sports scores.

WookieMan says

I'll throw you a bone and say middle class is $100k in family income ($58k or so is the actual median/middle class family income). Not a chance in hell a middle class person is saving $10k. Or paying AMT.

If middle class is 100k, than every government employee here is upper class dude, because they all make way more. In CA, 100k is not bad, but in a city that won't go far. It's an expensive state. I know I've done well last few years for myself. In Indiana 100k is great, in CA that's not much.

Look at these tables:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_minimum_tax

Everyone in CA who was earning any money was paying AMT. Especially families, there was a huge marriage penalty because it's based on income only where they don't double it from single, not cost of living.

SFace says

I'm sorry, the tax cut is effective for tax year beginning 1.1.18, which means 2018 taxes are filed and paid in 2019. How would you know how much savings there are when the year is not even 1/3 complete?

I plugged in this years income into 2018 taxes for estimation comparison purposes. Tax software is already updated. It's a nice tax cut.

Sniper says

SFace says

I'm sorry, the tax cut is effective for tax year beginning 1.1.18, which means 2018 taxes are filed and paid in 2019. How would you know how much savings there are when the year is not even 1/3 complete?

Because the outline of the plan, along with tax rates have been published. There are numerous online calculators available that will tell you your approximate tax liability under the new plan.

You should use that Smartphone for something useful, instead of just looking up sports scores.

I'm happy your tax is linear and your earnings are exactly the same.

FortWayne says

If middle class is 100k, than every government employee here is upper class dude, because they all make way more. In CA, 100k is not bad, but in a city that won't go far. It's an expensive state. I know I've done well last few years for myself. In Indiana 100k is great, in CA that's not much.

I get what you're saying, but median is middle. $58k is what the middle family makes. I get people make different amounts in different places, but $100k is technically not middle class, it's middle upper class. You saying you're middle class AND pay AMT seems a little tone deaf to me.

I don't know your guys income. But just make up a scenario at least to show me how you're saving high 4 figures and some saying 5 figures. If these calculators are readily available this should be pretty short work. I'll be honest, I doubt the claims, but am open to seeing some data. I'll eat crow if you can show me a scenario, where a middle class person is saving $10k a year. Hell, show me a case where a family making $200k a year would save $10k with the same income in 2018 vs. 2017.

WookieMan says

FortWayne says

If middle class is 100k, than every government employee here is upper class dude, because they all make way more. In CA, 100k is not bad, but in a city that won't go far. It's an expensive state. I know I've done well last few years for myself. In Indiana 100k is great, in CA that's not much.

I get what you're saying, but median is middle. $58k is what the middle family makes. I get people make different amounts in different places, but $100k is technically not middle class, it's middle upper class. You saying you're middle class AND pay AMT seems a little tone deaf to me.

I don't know your guys income. But just make up a scenario at least to show me how you're saving high 4 figures and some saying 5 figures. If these calculators are readily available this should be pretty short work. I'll be honest, I doubt the claims, but am open to seeing some data. I'll eat ...

Cause the calculator said so. Lmfao

The tax cut is definitely more beneficial to certain no income tax states like Florida Washington and Texas

But claiming 10k in savings say 200k in income is effectively a 5% effective tax rate cut. We know that only applies if all the stars are aligned

If you a LLC owner and hire people, then yeah. Tax cuts are significant.

SFace says

Cause the calculator said so. Lmfao

I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt here. I have no problem being proven wrong, honestly. I just don't know any scenario where someone making $200k in 2017 is going to save $10k in federal taxes in 2018 all thing being equal, besides the new tax law. This is my income range and have done my own taxes for 15 years. I'm interested in these calculators or some data to back the claims up is all. .

WookieMan says

SFace says

Cause the calculator said so. Lmfao

I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt here. I have no problem being proven wrong, honestly. I just don't know any scenario where someone making $200k in 2017 is going to save $10k in federal taxes in 2018 all thing being equal, besides the new tax law. This is my income range and have done my own taxes for 15 years. I'm interested in these calculators or some data to back the claims up is all. .

The tax cuts are well documented, the median person gets 1800 or so. The rich will laugh and save 2.6% on higher base and, business owners cream due to pass thru deductions
The upper working class in blue states get diddly squat.

If you are middle class, you get around 2k, more in Texas. But not 10k

SFace says

The tax cuts are well documented, the median person gets 1800 or so.

I know. Just trying to get the challenge out there.

The only person I've ignored on this site ever was making false claims like this ($10k savings). I even gave a path for that user to admit they lied and they still wouldn't admit the BS. Maybe the truth is being told, but given the accessibility of the calculators out there, it should be no problem showing the math from '17 to '18 and the savings. I'll wait and keep asking.

SFace says

But claiming 10k in savings say 200k in income is effectively a 5% effective tax rate cut. We know that only applies if all the stars are aligned

It's 4% difference on $200K between tax rates 2017 versus 2018, before tweaking:

28% on $200K in 2017



Versus 24% on $200K in 2018



WookieMan says

I have no problem being proven wrong, honestly.

Alright, you both can admit you're wrong now.

Sniper says

It's 4% difference on $200K between tax rates 2017 versus 2018, before tweaking:

Even better with MFJ (second column).

Finally a tax cut that understands that 2 people = income x2, not income x1.2 and penalize you for making more than that. Marriage penalty is gone. Liberals sure had their way of discouraging families with their blood sucking tax plan before.

I really am thankful to Trump for this change. It'll encourage initiative, help Americas families, all good things the left simply will not understand. :)

FortWayne says

Even better with MFJ (second column).

Plus the increase in the standard deduction to $24K for 2018 (up from $12K).

and if you have kids, The child tax credit will increase from $1,000 to $2,000 per child under age 17.

I wonder where those two guys ran away too?????

Sniper says

I wonder where those two guys ran away too?????

I'm here. I still haven't heard an explanation of how you yourself are going to save $8-10k or FW. Plug the numbers in on your own chart and the best you can do math wise with $200k income is a $6,300 savings with everything else excluded - see below. Factor in $10k SALT caps in NJ and CA and I'm not sure where you're getting your savings amounts. I'm in IL myself. By my estimation this tax "cut" will take about $2k out of my pocket, not a savings (this is admittedly my own tax situation).

This tax cut was totally intended to fuck blue states with high property taxes and income taxes. That's why I'm taken aback about you guys saying you're going to save 5 figures. If you're making $400k, good for you, because that's probably about what it would take to get those kind of savings and is not middle class income per FW.

I'm okay with these tax cuts. I'm not fighting them. I'm just fighting the numbers you guys are presenting. Show me an actual calculation and not a Wikipedia screen shot of tax rates that we all already know.

Sniper says

I wonder where those two guys ran away too?????

My humble guess is them boys went to find themselves a wife to get a tax cut.

WookieMan says

I'm here. I still haven't heard an explanation of how you yourself are going to save $8-10k or FW

Come on man, you are not even reading details:

FortWayne says

a tax cut that understands that 2 people = income x2, not income x1.2 and penalize you for making more than that

FortWayne says

Even better with MFJ

I'm MFJ. 2017 = marriage penalty. 2018 = no penalty. Everyone is different of course. Some people can take advantage of child credit, and bigger standard deduction (12->24). Others are simply in better brackets, such as in our case. There is no magic here. Just simply better tax plan that works for everyone. Rich got the smallest tax cut, just 1%.

WookieMan says

I'm here. I still haven't heard an explanation of how you yourself are going to save $8-10k or FW. Plug the numbers in on your own chart and the best you can do math wise with $200k income is a $6,300 savings with everything else excluded

That's because you don't know how to be creative when it comes to taxes. I prepaid a bunch of things in 2017 to get the full deduction. Now in 2018, I'll take the standard deduction of $24K, but since I got full deduction of items in 2017, I'll save between $8K -$10K this year based on out of pocket expenses.

WookieMan says

I'm just fighting the numbers you guys are presenting.

Just admit, you're not as sharp as you appear. :)

WookieMan says

This tax cut was totally intended to fuck blue states with high property taxes and income taxes.

Very true, voting Democrat in those states has consequences.

Hi Wookieman,

I believe your quibble with Ft Wayne is over what constitutes middle class. I’ve had the same argument with people claiming family income of $250-500k a year is middle class.

FWIW, based on rising rents and housing costs in LA and OC, I’ve personally adjusted my definition of middle class in LA and OC as thusly:

$80-120k lower middle class
$125-175k middle class
$175-250k upper middle class

I know that sounds crazy but by that standard, lower middle class is completely priced out of buying anywhere but ghetto and will struggle to find a rental unit with a good school district, the middle class person is mostly relegated to an hour plus commute or a townhome in a decent school district, and the upper middle class family should be able to afford a sfr in a decent are, though it won’t be fancy unless it’s in one of the outer suburbs.

Personally in calculating the lower tax amount, our family income is in the $125-150k range and we are largely priced out of the areas we want to live in LA. I’m close enough to retirement that it’s not worth it for us to buy in LA anyway as we’re retiring out of state.

Of course all of this depends on when you bought. Someone who bought in the 80’s is pretty much middle class on an income of $40-60k

Sniper says

SFace says

But claiming 10k in savings say 200k in income is effectively a 5% effective tax rate cut. We know that only applies if all the stars are aligned

It's 4% difference on $200K between tax rates 2017 versus 2018, before tweaking:

28% on $200K in 2017



Versus 24% on $200K in 2018



WookieMan says

I have no problem being proven wrong, honestly.

Alright, you both can admit you're wrong now.

I did say 5% if all the stars are aligned. There is no disagreement there. And the rate is not 4% once all the brackets are worked through. It's closer to 3.2% (as someone else posted) so you are still farting make up numbers.

What you claimed a middle class saves 10K is wildly making shxt up. Your chart, at the most basic level (100K in taxable income after itemized deduction which translate to 130K in gross wages) income saves around 2K (Based on the very tax bracket you prove to show how wrong you are). A family earning 130K in gross income, 100K taxable saved 2K in taxes.

You can finesse the # all you want, but no middle class family is saving 10K in taxes. unless someone you think earning 250K (In non-coastal CA, NJ.NY) in gross wages is middle class. I don't even care how much someone saved or not saved, BUT PLEASE, making shxt up is not cool. The average family is not saving 2K and you dug yourself in denial.

CovfefeButDeadly says

Hi Wookieman,

I believe your quibble with Ft Wayne is over what constitutes middle class. I’ve had the same argument with people claiming family income of $250-500k a year is middle class.

FWIW, based on rising rents and housing costs in LA and OC, I’ve personally adjusted my definition of middle class in LA and OC as thusly:

$80-120k lower middle class
$125-175k middle class
$175-250k upper middle class

I know that sounds crazy but by that standard, lower middle class is completely priced out of buying anywhere but ghetto and will struggle to find a rental unit with a good school district, the middle class person is mostly relegated to an hour plus commute or a townhome in a decent school district, and the upper middle class family should be able to afford a sfr in a decent are, though it won’t be fancy unless it’s in one of the outer suburbs.

Personally in calculating the lower tax amount, our family income is in the $125-150k range and we ar...

Couldn't agree more. CA inflation is madness.

And here is probably why:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-drop-pension-20180206-story.html - a drop in the bucket as they say...

I think what we can all agree on is the author in the article cited in OP has an agenda and is content with using deceptive writing and bias to make his point.

Sniper says

That's because you don't know how to be creative when it comes to taxes. I prepaid a bunch of things in 2017 to get the full deduction. Now in 2018, I'll take the standard deduction of $24K, but since I got full deduction of items in 2017, I'll save between $8K -$10K this year based on out of pocket expenses.

Thanks for the clarification. You took advantage of pre-paying your property taxes it sounds like. You've said you're retired, so not sure what else you're pre-paying, but would love to hear new strategies, seriously. Outside of property tax pre-pay, not sure what is creative here.

Sniper says

I'll save between $8K -$10K this year based on out of pocket expenses.

Quoting this again, because your original assertion was the savings were next year. That's fine if it was a typo. Your explanation here makes more sense about the savings. You probably should average the savings this year out over two years and then account for the actual tax cuts next year. It's probably closer to a $3-4K savings per year, and that was my main point. $10k per year savings it generally exaggerated unless you're pulling in $400k. And again, if you are, good for you. I don't begrudge people making bank.

Sniper says

Based on quick math, I'll also be saving around $8K - $10K next year too.

Sniper says

FortWayne says

Even better with MFJ (second column).

Plus the increase in the standard deduction to $24K for 2018 (up from $12K).

and if you have kids, The child tax credit will increase from $1,000 to $2,000 per child under age 17.

I wonder where those two guys ran away too?????

No one ran away. You look more and more in denial

More standard deduction 12k increase is offset by losing the personal exemption which for a minimum of 2 is 8k+ God forbid you don't have four kids. Or you were itemizing under in the past and now on standard deduction so your personal exemption is totally wiped out and more.

And that just makes your middle class argument worst. Your tax bracket is taxable income after deductions. Your middle class gross income of 125k reports at max 101k in taxable income. And that's before healthcare, 401k. A 125k family reports closer to 90k in taxable income even on standard deduction.

Your hypetthical 200k in taxable income translate which saves 6300 translates to 240k in gross income. Good luck telling me this is your average middle class.

Chile tax credit does not move the needle. It's just compensating for lost personal exemption.

You should throw the calculator out the trash can because you look at it way too simple. Your denial makes it look worst because you just prove you understand little but represent a lot.

CovfefeButDeadly says

FWIW, based on rising rents and housing costs in LA and OC, I’ve personally adjusted my definition of middle class in LA and OC as thusly:

$80-120k lower middle class
$125-175k middle class
$175-250k upper middle class

I wouldn't disagree with this as an outsider to LA. Chicago is similar if you want to live in a decent area and not get shot. I just still don't get the $10k annual savings from this tax plan for someone making money even on the top end of your range (just mentioning your class range, not that you're saying you yourself are saving X dollars on taxes). My chart above kind of proves the argument for someone making $200k and having ALL the income taxed. It's only a $6k savings. Throw in all the other tax code gibberish and a $200k earner/family is only getting taxed at $150k. So it's even less then $6k difference.

I just want a little more detail from these guys. Sniper gave some in the form of pre-paids. But I'm still not seeing $10k a year savings. Or even $8k.

FortWayne says

I'm MFJ. 2017 = marriage penalty. 2018 = no penalty. Everyone is different of course. Some people can take advantage of child credit, and bigger standard deduction (12->24). Others are simply in better brackets, such as in our case. There is no magic here. Just simply better tax plan that works for everyone. Rich got the smallest tax cut, just 1%.

Dude, I don't know what to believe anymore. You were just talking about AMT and now you're talking about tax brackets? It can't be both, you do understand that, right? If you're having to go AMT route, there's a good (great) chance you've got enough income to be phased out of the child tax credit. So again, not sure where you are going with this. Just say you like the tax plan and don't get into the details.

WookieMan says

Not sure if this is sarcasm.

I have a high income. Well above $250K.

Wookieman at this point this is a reading comprehension problem on your part.

Just read more about taxes so you understand it.

WookieMan says

FortWayne says

I'm MFJ. 2017 = marriage penalty. 2018 = no penalty. Everyone is different of course. Some people can take advantage of child credit, and bigger standard deduction (12->24). Others are simply in better brackets, such as in our case. There is no magic here. Just simply better tax plan that works for everyone. Rich got the smallest tax cut, just 1%.

Dude, I don't know what to believe anymore. You were just talking about AMT and now you're talking about tax brackets? It can't be both, you do understand that, right? If you're having to go AMT route, there's a good (great) chance you've got enough income to be phased out of the child tax credit. So again, not sure where you are going with this. Just say you like the tax plan and don't get into the details.

In CA that’s barely middle class these days sadly due to Democrat liberal policies of inflation.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

WookieMan says

Not sure if this is sarcasm.

I have a high income. Well above $250K.

PrivilegedtobeWhite says

WookieMan says

Not sure if this is sarcasm.

I have a high income. Well above $250K.

Then your $8k claim is good by me. There are ways to get that kind of savings over $250k income. Sniper explained his savings as well, though I think he misspoke about the time frame of those savings. Not a big deal though.

I just take issue with FW claiming $10k savings and barely considers himself middle class. So I threw out the $200k income example (WAY over middle class) and with zero deductions (meaning paying more) the difference was $6k from 2017 to 2018. Put in the standard deduction for either old tax plan or new tax plan and there's less income taxed. So the difference is even less then $6k on $200k income. It's probably a $4-$5k savings. That's probably best case in a low/no income tax state. CA is not one of those. It's a savings no doubt, just not double what was claimed.

He either makes more than $200k, again awesome, or he's making up savings amounts. I personally don't have a problem with the tax plan myself. I've run my numbers here in IL (similar SALT burdens to CA though flipped with property & income taxes) comparing 2017 and 2018 and with around $200k family income, I will pay slightly more in taxes due to the salt cap of $10k. It is what it is. I also understand the strategy by the Republicans. States like IL are already fighting to keep their citizen cash flow going: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20180411/BLOGS02/180419968/state-lawmakers-look-for-a-trump-tax-cap-workaround

I'd just appreciate some honestly when a topic isn't known to someone. It's not a big deal. We're not encyclopedias. At some point, stop digging the hole though or give some rough numbers on how you're getting to $10K savings and not just the talking points about the tax plan. If it's explained logically, hell even simply, I'll drop my contention towards the claim. Not too difficult really. I think most here would say I'm a reasonable commenter at Patnet.