patrick.net

LeonDurham says

Except for in every other healthcare system in the world.

How does our healthcare system compare to Africa, Central and South America?

socal2 says

But but but Iceland and their 300,000 white people! They can do it! Why can't America!!!

Figure out why government subsidies have fucked up housing and education costs so much in the US............then we can trust the government to not fuck up healthcare even more than they already have.

Of course that just means giving the government even MOAR power to force price controls on the private sector to fix the mess the Government created with its subsidies.

Does the entire civilized world consist of Iceland?

Aphroman says

Wow Trump not going to like this

You have no idea what Trump likes. If he said this was his plan. Every Liberal in America would be rioting with Handguns and ball bats in the streets the next day.
Trump has said time and time again it's time we do the right thing with health care. A Nationalized Public Health care system in tandem with a Private market.
Is the only sensible right thing to do.

Conflating Health care, Insurance and Quarterly Profits is insane that so call educated Liberals can't see the fatal flaw in that business model.
I say ditch Homeland Security and create Health Care Security Agency, a branch of the Military.

Re: Ditch Homeland Security.

IF those bastards are a sleep while a Kenyan Muslim ex-president tries to usurp, thwart and destroy a sitting President. Then those G.W. Bush Bastards have got to fucking Go Go Go Gone, and hit them in the head with FEMA as they sit on their sorry asses in the street in the pouring rain.

Ditch the Department of Homeland Security now they are scam and sham and are hogging up America's health care money.

Libby Economics: Yeah, spending money ACTUALLY SAVES MONEY. Yeah, Yeah, spend that money, because you are actually saving money, yeah, yeah! The more you spend, the more you save! Yeah, Yeah, convinced yet?

LeonDurham says

Does the entire civilized world consist of Iceland?

No - but much of the "civilized world" you point to are tiny European white-bread countries whose population is smaller than the county I live in in California.

Demographics matter if you want a very generous welfare system.

ThreeBays says

Average trend in healthcare cost increases before Obamacare was 6.7%, and after was 4.2%. That adds up to about $2400 saving per person per year.

I love when Liberals use percentages to make a point:



So, in 2008, cost was $15,609 x 6.7% increase = a $1,045 increase.

In 2016, cost was $25,826 x 4.2% increase = a $1,084 increase.

Was there a savings?? See, percentages don't tell the true facts, but they SOUND good.

We won't even touch on the FACT that the costs themselves rose $10,000 over that period.

That $2,400 "savings" was probably computed the same way Obama said we'd be getting $2,500 back per family.

Other countries with socialized medicine pay about half of what we do for drugs. So assume all costs will go down, and half all projected outlays for healthcare in the USA under socialized medicine.

Consider that under an employer subsidized health care plan, annual premiums for employer-sponsored family health coverage.rose an average of 3 percent to $18,764 this year, with workers on average paying $5,714. https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2017-employer-health-benefits-survey/

If taxes under socialized medicine were to increase more than $5,714 for the average worker, fuggedaboudit.

Also, get rid of the uninsured illegals, who will always be treated at ER's, which we all pay for.

ThreeBays says

6.7% was the annual increase from 2000 to 2008. 4.2% is the rate of increase after 2008

According to who, or is this just another "Truth by Proclamation"?


ThreeBays says

Healthcare cost growth has decelerated significantly since 2008,

But the actual costs have risen substantially, and if you listen to the Liberals, there's been zero wage growth, so tell me, are families better off now, spending MORE for healthcare on the same annual wages?

ThreeBays says

which adds up to a huge saving

Speaking of savings, did you receive your $2,500 check from Obama yet? I didn't, when do you think he'll be sending them? It's been quite a few years............

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

How much could it cost to have the National Guard shoot the sick, the poor and infirm?

Ammo is expensive. There should be an ammo deductible and co-pay.

ThreeBays says

Radical change is needed. Why is Bernie the only one with the balls to propose one?

You're confused.

Why is Bernie the only idiot to propose it?

There's a reason he's one of the poorest Senators in Congress after 3 decades of serving. Why is that?

ThreeBays says

Why doesn't the GOP & Trump propose anything while they have power?

Why didn't Obama and the Democrats do something about price controls when they were passing Obamacare? That was their signature policy, and they had carte blanche to pass whatever they desired!

socal2 says

I live in in California.

Demographics matter if you want a very generous welfare system.

Like the demographics of say Vermont ROFLOL. Trying to sell the same shit on another thread are we?

Tenpoundbass says

Nationalize Healthcare nobody should be getting rich off the Sick, the infirmed or the indigent.

here we have a right winger that spends a significant amount on healthcare singing the different song. Oh its not communism now.

ThreeBays says

Obama had carte blanche (filibuster proof majority) for a few months only, when they passed Obamacare.

If it was such a wonder program (according to the Democrats) why did they need a filibuster majority to ram it through? Surely there should have been at least a few Repubs that came on board to support such wonderful piece legislation, right?

ThreeBays says

Growth has been much lower than projected all while Obamacare has been in law, all while ACA mandated increased patient protections. Can you deny this?

Such strange Liberal logic... claiming that only a 6% INCREASE annually in costs after Obamacare was inacted is so much better than the 8% annual increases before it.

Normal people would say an even 0.25% increase is too much, specially since wage growth during that time had flat lined. To the majority of normal people, the actual cost (in dollars) is the biggest issue, NOT the rate of change in percentages. How many people go to the store and pay for groceries with "percentages"?

Liberals say the strangest things when trying to justify a crap program that really didn't fix the main issues. Liberal Logic at it's best!

Aphroman says

I’m still waiting for the Repeal and Replace of Obamacare that Trump promised

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2018/01/30/in-state-of-the-union-trump-touts-end-to-individual-mandate-but-doesnt-ask-for-obamacare-repeal/#451b295cb164

You're welcome. FYI, my clients overwhelmingly hated Obama for the individual mandate and loved trump for removing it.

ThreeBays says

Thanks Koch brothers for showing how Medicare for All Act could save 2 Trillion while insuring every american.

Did you ignore the rest of your chart?

ThreeBays says

No, did you? $2 Trillion saving is the bottom line to the nation's spending.

OK lets go slow. Is 32 trillion in added federal budget more or less than 2 trillion of admin savings?

LeonDurham says

Except for in every other healthcare system in the world.

Lol, ok, go ahead and show us your numbers. This will be hilarious.

ThreeBays says

32 trillion is the budget change, replacing 34 trillion of current projected costs, resulting in the 2 trillion savings overall.

In case it's not obvious, 32 trillion would need to come from increasing Medicare taxes, which we could afford by paying 34 trillion less in private insurance and out of pocket expenses.

You obviously didn't get the memo. Government spending is only good when it's on a wall. Or guns.

Baby boomer logic.

“Taking two Helocs on my home is this easy? Wow. That BMW M5 is going to look great in my garage!”

“I have to pay for my own health care? But but health care is a right!”

What a failure of a generation.

ThreeBays says

MrMagic says

Such strange Liberal logic... claiming that only a 6% INCREASE annually in costs after Obamacare was inacted is so much better than the 8% annual increases before it.

Normal people would say an even 0.25% increase is too much, specially since wage growth during that time had flat lined. To the majority of normal people, the actual cost (in dollars) is the biggest issue, NOT the rate of change in percentages. How many people go to the store and pay for groceries with "percentages"?

Liberals say the strangest things when trying to justify a crap program that really didn't fix the main issues. Liberal Logic at it's best!

Wow, that's one of the dumbest things I've read in a while.

Thanks for proving my point. Liberals don't understand basic math and economics.

I rest my case, your honor.

ThreeBays says

In case it's not obvious, 32 trillion would need to come from increasing Medicare taxes, which we could afford by paying 34 trillion less in private insurance and out of pocket expenses.

Any idea how much of that 34 million is paid by employers as a "benefit" to the employee in the form of covering the biggest part of their health insurance bill? So once the government takes over the cost, and relieves the employer of that cost for his employees, where do you think that money will go?

There are many part time workers and contract workers that don't get employer paid healthcare. You think the employers will roll over at the barrel of a gun and start paying all these new INCREASED Medicare taxes for ALL employees?

Trump supporter strawman logic--

Someone saying that the US should adopt a plan that saves money and gives everyone health care is somehow saying:

Goran_K says

“I have to pay for my own health care? But but health care is a right!”

What a failure of a generation.

MrMagic says

Any idea how much of that 34 million is paid by employers as a "benefit" to the employee in the form of covering the biggest part of their health insurance bill?

And those benefits are part of your compensation package. It's YOUR money

LeonDurham says

MrMagic says

Any idea how much of that 34 million is paid by employers as a "benefit" to the employee in the form of covering the biggest part of their health insurance bill?

And those benefits are part of your compensation package. It's YOUR money

Actually it's not, it's a "benefit", as in perk of their job. That's why there are employees who DON'T get it.

Try looking up the definition of "benefit", it will be an educational experience.

Next thing we'll hear is that it's a "right" as an employee, is that correct?

LeonDurham says

a plan that saves money and gives everyone health care

When one is actually discussed, then you have a point.

Until then, no dice.

ThreeBays says

In case that's not obvious as well, employers could be MADE to pay their part, just the same way as they DO for Social Security already. It's called writing legislation.

Did ya miss this part:

MrMagic says

You think the employers will roll over at the barrel of a gun and start paying all these new INCREASED Medicare taxes for ALL employees?

Let's see some logic, if the employers are "MADE" to pay these additional, increased taxes for ALL employees, what do you think will happen to total headcount in the company?

This answer should be great!

Goran_K says

When one is actually discussed, then you have a point.

Until then, no dice.

This thread is discussing it.

MrMagic says

Actually it's not, it's a "benefit", as in perk of their job. That's why there are employees who DON'T get it.

lol--no, it's a benefit.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/employee-benefits.html

"In general, indirect and non-cash compensation paid to an employee. Some benefits are mandated by law (such as social security, unemployment compensation, and workers compensation), others vary from firm to firm or industry to industry (such as health insurance, life insurance, medical plan, paid vacation, pension, gratuity)."


Regardless of the term you want to call it, it's part of one's compensation package so it's YOUR money.

LeonDurham says

MrMagic says

Actually it's not, it's a "benefit", as in perk of their job. That's why there are employees who DON'T get it.

lol--no, it's a benefit.

Regardless of the term you want to call it, it's part of one's compensation package so it's YOUR money.

So, EVERYONE in the company gets it, since it's THEIR money?

Leon - I believe the analysis showing $2 trillion in savings assumes that the health industry remains static and that all doctors will happily take roughly a 30-40% cut to accept Medicare level payments.

I think it is obvious that we will see many doctors leave the practice and the shortage of healthcare providers will have a big impact on costs, wait times and quality of care.

socal2 says

I think it is obvious that we will see many doctors leave the practice and the shortage of healthcare providers will have a big impact on costs, wait times and quality of care.

That's actually true. If anyone here knows someone on Medicaid, go ask them how's access to the doctors of their choice and how much freedom to they have to choose what treatments they want.

We should allow the government to run healthcare and every other important industry. Over the years they have proved to be competent and efficient.

MrMagic says

So, EVERYONE in the company gets it, since it's THEIR money?

wtf are you talking about? Those that get healthcare costs paid by the company are getting a benefit as part of their total compensation package. Regardless of who sends the check to the healthcare company, it's the employee's money.

socal2 says

Leon - I believe the analysis showing $2 trillion in savings assumes that the health industry remains static and that all doctors will happily take roughly a 30-40% cut to accept Medicare level payments.

Can you show something to back that up?

LeonDurham says

This thread is discussing it.

... and so far, no plan has been presented that would cover ALL, and save money.

LeonDurham says

Can you show something to back that up?

I didn't realize this was in dispute.

*More Doctors Steer Clear of Medicare*
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323971204578626151017241898

Where will doctors go if the Government takes over the whole system?

socal2 says

Where will doctors go if the Government takes over the whole system?

Heh heh heh heh heh (evil laugh).

One thing I guarantee is that Rx Companies will get paid full retail price, even when Medicaid is buying the same pills by the billions.

tovarichpeter says

Medicare For All plan would actually save us money

That is a non-sequitur. (Where is Iwog when you need him?) If your taxes increase more than you are paying for insurance now, not so.