patrick.net

marcus says

OH, okay, you win. You're right, I really embarrassed myself here.

Agreed.

Calling facts racist is embarrassing.

I was being sarcastic. I get it though. Being called out on racism is likely to lead to a lot of back pedaling and lying.

To be clear though, the video above is you're best evidence of your point of view, right ?

I've watched a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and yes, he has a fairly smal number of times talked about IQ, but I don't believe it was ever with the intent of implying racial differences in IQ. The other guy brought it up in the video you found. I know it couldn't have been easy to find.

And I see you've substantially changed you thesis:


CBOEtrader says

1) IQ is heritable and undeniably different amongst cultural groups. (Note: I am using the word "cultural" over "race" because as JP points out, race is almost impossible to define.) 2) IQ is the best predictor of economic success we have. 3) SJW's who blame stratophication variations amongst cultural groups to racism, are simply displaying uneducated childlike ideology. 4) SJW ideology of forced equality of outcomes will naturally lead to death and the worst humankind has to offer.

YOu're getting closer to being reasonable.

1) is wrong. ALmost always when he talks about IQ it is not tied to any implication about ethnic groups.

2) yes he has said that IQ is one of the best predictors of success. I can't help but wonder whether you understand that this says nothing about how good a predictor it is. Only that it's one of the best. Also, he's talking about at the level of the individual.

3) doesn't make sense.

4) not too far off.

SJW's aren't even now making strong arguments for equality of outcome. There's affirmative action which is not on the increase, over all. And I don't know how much of that is generated from grass roots SJWs. It's more the emphasis on identity groups that is the problems JP argues against, and that the post modernist emphasis on everything being about group power is a precursor to further and more dangerous movement towards government pressures toward equality of outcome which would be disastrous. That's what he's worried about.

I said I was done before, and I need to be. YOu've done a lot of lying to me and to yourself in this discussion, but it's understandable. You were called out on your racism.

Just one random observation of something disturbing (there were so many), can you tell me where this comes from ? I find it very hard to believe that the part in quotes is connected to him saying what you preceded it with. Can you tel me where it comes from. Can you ackknowledge that it is as dishonest as I think it is ?


CBOEtrader says

IQ does, however, predict stratification of society, and IQ is very correlated to racial groups. "I dont have a solution to that, but at least I can point out the problem." -JP Pointing out the problem is the first step towards helping people.

marcus says

I was being sarcastic.

Lol, yes I was playing along.marcus says

Being called out on racism is likely to lead to a lot of back pedaling and lying.

You are displaying your bigotry here. Very weak.

marcus says

To be clear though, the video above is you're best evidence of your point of view, right ?

It's not my point of view in question. The video I posted is one of dozens of examples of JP discussing race and IQ.

marcus says

I've watched a lot of Jordan Peterson videos, and yes, he has a fairly smal number of times talked about IQ, but I don't believe it was ever with the intent of implying racial differences in IQ.

Wrong. This is proof you haven't watched JP videos in full. Find me a single clip of JP discussing IQ in regards to success wherein he doesnt bring up his Jewish example. Im not doubting its there, but he usually brings up the Jewish question. He is very careful not to point out the less than average IQ minority groups himself, choosing instead to discuss Jews so that he can have a positive example AND because of the historical significance. "The Jewish Question" is also identical to the thought process of todays SJW's. The success = oppression meme should have died w Hitler. Apparently people like yourself are keeping this tyrannical concept alive and well. Congrats.

marcus says

YOu're getting closer to being reasonable.

My interpretation of JP has been consistent. Yours is the slippery reality. "JP doesnt discuss IQ" LOLZ. "OK maybe he does discuss IQ but only on an individual level." LOLZ. Cant wait to see how your reality unfolds next. When you want to embrace facts, I'll be here waiting.

marcus says

1) is wrong. ALmost always when he talks about IQ it is not tied to any implication about ethnic groups

Heres where you start to play w weasel wording and conflate issues. JP almost always brings up the Jewish example along w IQ. Lets clarify, are you saying there is no difference amongst races in IQ, or simply that JP doesnt discuss IQ and race? Both are easily and provably wrong, I'm just asking you which error should I address?

marcus says

I can't help but wonder whether you understand that this says nothing about how good a predictor it is. Only that it's one of the best.

Heres where your bigotry is showing again. You literally haven't even listened to JP talk, then assume that I am making up figures. Amazing. If you take the time to listen to him speak, he tells you matter of factly how good of a predictor it is. He gives specific numbers suggesting 15% of success is determined by IQ, which is more than enough to tip the scales amongst large groups of higher IQ individuals.

marcus says

Also, he's talking about at the level of the individual.

Again, you prove you haven't listened to him speak at all. Go back and listen to him before pretending that you understand what hes saying. Listen carefully to him explain that Jews have a one st dev higher IQ, which naturally results in enormously higher representation in positions of power and intellectual competence. He also often points out that a 60:40 difference in average aggression in males vs females (a small difference at the average) results in 95% of prison inmates being men. The same representation within highly competent positions would be expected from small differences in average IQ amongst groups.

marcus says

3) doesn't make sense.

You've already shown your bigotry of others and unwillingness to even hear statements made by JP that contradict your bigotry, so this reaction makes perfect sense. FYI: try listening to JP before discussing him.

I'm not sure how more wrong you can be about this. If your response is "that's racist" forgive rational people for assuming all leftists have gone insane.

marcus says

there are differences in averages IQ for ethnic groups which btw would be very hard to show (how do you sample to account for differences in socioeconomic, cultural, school background, etc? People get widely varying

No they are easy to show and you don't account for anything for the raw measurement. That's the typical leftoids bs. Many of the believed (not proven) circumstancial causes are the responsibility of the individual group you're looking at and comparing. It's a feedback and chicken and hen problem. But even if you think you discovered an outside factor that may not be their fault you start working towards changing it after you acknowledge the significant raw difference measured in IQ. Take off the PC glasses.

Nature is racist.

CBOEtrader says

marcus says

I can't help but wonder whether you understand that this says nothing about how good a predictor it is. Only that it's one of the best.

Heres where your bigotry is showing again. You literally haven't even listened to JP talk, then assume that I am making up figures. Amazing. If you take the time to listen to him speak, he tells you matter of factly how good of a predictor it is. He gives specific numbers suggesting 15% of success is determined by IQ, which is more than enough to tip the scales amongst large groups of higher IQ individuals.

Actually I only questioned whether you understand that being the best predictor doesn't mean it's that good of a predictor. You're proving me right (15%) while lecturing me on how I suppoedy haven't listened that much to Jordan Peterson.

Look I get it, in the past day or so you have listened to everything that comes up on searches on google or youtube related to Jordan Peterson and IQ. Because you're obviously triggered. The truth is that even with these several recent hours you've put in to listening to him, is a small fraction of what I have - but that's totally irrelevant and beside the point.

Even the title of this thread is dishonest, becasue differences in IQ by ethnic group was never a major point Jordan Peterson stresses. . Why would it be ? He's a really smart guy.

To argue with SJWs that claim that difficulties minority individuals have competing in the job market, are not about too much power in the hands of "white supremacy culture" or "the patriarchy," one would need only to argue the benefits of a meritocracy where success in "competence hierarchies" are based simply on competence. This leads to success in getting things done. It does not require accepting that the real difficulty for minority individuals is that said minority groups have lower average IQ. In fact that would be dishonest and counter productive

SJWs need to accept It's not about too much power being in the hands of white males (the patriarchy). But they don't need to accept and should not be accepting that historical difficulties of minority individuals competing are related to small differences in average IQ ( differences Peterson acknowledges may not even exist).

I noticed you didn't address the dishonesty in the line (quoted below) of the OP which I asked about at the end of my last comment. Please point me to where Jordan Peterson says this second sentence in connection to the first as implied by you. Or for that matter where he ever says the first sentence.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

IQ does, however, predict stratification of society, and IQ is very correlated to racial groups. "I dont have a solution to that, but at least I can point out the problem." -JP Pointing out the problem is the first step towards helping people.

A conversation like this could only happen in today's racist, ignorant climate. There are differences when it comes to ethnicity, most notably average dick size, how quickly you sunburn, and certain athletic capabilities. But that's pretty much where it ends. I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

NuttBoxer says

I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

It never was.

NuttBoxer says

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

Agreed. IT exists mostly at the political extremes.

I wouldn't have engaged to this extent but for the dishonest representation of Jordan Peterson.

NuttBoxer says

A conversation like this could only happen in today's racist, ignorant climate. There are differences when it comes to ethnicity, most notably average dick size, how quickly you sunburn, and certain athletic capabilities. But that's pretty much where it ends. I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

marcus says

NuttBoxer says

I'm guessing that if Jordan had correlated economic status with his IQ findings, his primary driver would no longer be ethnicity.

It never was.

NuttBoxer says

When the fuck will people start focusing on anything OTHER THAN race?

Agreed. IT exists mostly at the political extremes.

I wouldn't have engaged to this extent but for the dishonest representation of Jordan Peterson.

You are missing the point, the differences in IQ are clearly proven. Now, any test is imperfect and so will be the end results, but if you accept current IQ standard tests the differences are there and significant enough to be noted but not necessarily for predicting outcome or behavior. Ashkenazi Jews score higher than whites, even Asians score slightly higher, and blacks score the lowest. On average. Whether these differences are enough to predict outcomes and differences in social status, money and more is absolutely questionable and that's why there is not much focus on it as a predictor or explanation as it is believed not to be significant enough at the moment to predict outcome/behavior. Also the causes appear to be many different ones, but genetics is definitely one of them.

That's what geneticists do. They focus on race. That's their fucking job. But that has nothing to do with the lefts constant race-baiting and stoking race-hate where none existed before. They are the real racists.

mell says

You are missing the point, the differences in IQ are clearly proven.

I shouldn't have to re-state this, but I will. At what point in the individuals life is the test being administered? I seriously doubt it's before they start their government or private education, and right there, without race ever being a factor, one group is given an incredible advantage. Economics are FAR more important to IQ than race.

NuttBoxer says

mell says

You are missing the point, the differences in IQ are clearly proven.

I shouldn't have to re-state this, but I will. At what point in the individuals life is the test being administered? I seriously doubt it's before they start their government or private education, and right there, without race ever being a factor, one group is given an incredible advantage. Economics are FAR more important to IQ than race.

That may be true, however there is also a possible feedback loop. If you focus on the US only you could postulate that the difference in social and economic status and thus better access to education for one group is a main driver and thus the test is not "fair". However we have tons of programs directed at helping the poorer and even laws that discriminate against those that score better (affirmative action), yet not much progress is being made and often a toxic culture (high single-motherhood, absence of fathers, crime etc.) remains. Actually the Wikipedia entry on this is pretty decent and balanced read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

I have no problems accepting that Ashkenazi Jews and many Asians score higher on average than my genetic lineage does, and I am not blaming any economic or social factors for it. It is what it is, it's not highly important to me, but I have no reason to attack it.

marcus says

You're proving me right (15%) while lecturing me on how I suppoedy haven't listened that much to Jordan Peterson.

proof that you dont understand statistics, which btw is the exact problem that JP suggests leads most people to the incorrect patriarchy conclusion.

marcus says

Look I get it, in the past day or so you have listened to everything that comes up on searches on google or youtube related to Jordan Peterson and IQ.

Wrong again...and you dont get it. I've proven your statements wrong time and again. Or do you still believe JP doesnt discuss IQ just competence? Or how about your backtracked claim that JP only discusses IQ as it pertains to individuals? Both probably false, but I guess listening to a 6 minute video would be too much research for you.

If you cant admit when you are blatantly wrong then why even have a discussion?

marcus says

becasue differences in IQ by ethnic group was never a major point Jordan Peterson stresses. . Why would it be ? He's a really smart guy.

Fighting back against SJW/progressive tyranny is hone of his major points. He uses the "Jewish Question" IQ discussion to point out that differences of outcome, even if they are extreme at the tails DOES NOT equal a white racist patriarchy.

CBOEtrader says

Or do you still believe JP doesnt discuss IQ just competence?

I never believed this. You're lying. Here I'll try to go back to the very beginning of this. Sheesh.

Okay, here it is, what I believe is my very my first comment on this "discussion," #99 in another thread.

http://patrick.net/post/1317991?offset=80#comment-1525222

Maybe if I hadn't included the last sentence, you could have just agreed with me (not that I don't stand by it as true).

marcus says

You totally misunderstand what JP has said. HE never said anything close to that. He has talked about IQ differences, which are different on average but at the level of selected individuals it's irrelevant. Further more there are other factors I won't go in to that make it difficult to get representative scores for entire races, while controlling for educational differences.

Peterson is opposed to going for equality of outcome. But he never said: "it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy." He's simply opposed to blaming white patriarchy as oppressive, and argues that meritocracy works and is what people are conflating with Patriarchy. He also sometimes talks about how if someone has an IQ of 80 or lower(perhaps the border he cites is lower), it's really going to be hard for them to make a living. If anything this is an argument for safety nets, which he is not opposed to.

Yes, later I talked about competence being more relevant than IQ in one specific context, becasue if you weren't only searching for JP discussions on IQ you would know how often he talks about hierarchies and competence hierarchies specifically.

marcus says

Yes, later I talked about competence being more relavant than IQ in a specific context, becasue if you weren't only searching for discussions on IQ you would know how often he talks about hierachys and competence hierarchies specifically.

JP does somewhat use IQ and competence interchangably. He often describes competence as a combination of IQ and conscientiousness. IQ and conscientiousness can be measured, whereas competence is less statistically defined.

I believe I have found the core of our disagreement however.

marcus says

Peterson is opposed to going for equality of outcome. But he never said: "it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy."

JP absolutely has said this, albeit in his own words. You quoting my patrick.net forum comment and saying "he never said this" is disingenuous. JP will ne far more careful w his words than myself. That's why JP is our champion, and I'm just some schmuck in a forum.

CBOEtrader says

I believe I have found the core of our disagreement however.

Very good !!

Good job !!!

I also made it clear with this repeated at least once.

marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this.

marcus says

I also made it clear with this repeated at least once.

marcus says

Even most conservatives, not even most hard right wing morons believe that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. Jordan Peterson certainly would not argue this.

Your ad hums and cheap smears against me doesnt make your statement any less wrong. (Dear admins, I feel like Marcus and I are both being liberal w the rules in this convo so should we thunderdome this thread?)

Let's unpack your innacuracues. You suggest that noone "believes that it is differences in intelligence due to race that is the reason for under representations of blacks or latinos in the corporate world. "
Nothing is THE reason. IQ is the most predictive factor. You are ignoring nuance so-as to disregard these uncomfortable truths. JP said "IQ is the best factor for predicting success that we've found by a fa tor of 10". Then he brings up Ashkenazi Jews, who are overrepresented in positions of competence by many, many times their ratio of the population. JP doesnt often point out the groups with lower than average IQ, but he confirms that the academic research is undeniable (watch the video again if you dont believe me).

Let's go slow here...if groups w higher average IQ are overrepresented in highly competent positions, what conclusion can we draw about lower IQ groups?

FYI, the original conversation was about the need for a 1st amendment protections. I pointed out that facts will get you banned, which is unfortunate in that it prevents us from helping the exact people you pretend to support.

Do you think this kid should be labelled a racist? Or should you let him research his project? https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article199440204.html

Do you think it's fair that Asian students have to score 200 points higher on sats to get into the same elite college as a black?

These are important questions that need to be discussed, and require an iron clad 1st amendment.

The title of this thread:

CBOEtrader says

Jordan Peterson pointing out "irremediable and biological" ethnic IQ differences, and why Marcus is wrong

Is quoting that title a smear ?

CBOEtrader says

should we thunderdome this thread?

Even that title has got to be seriously embarrassing for you.

I asked a couple times for you to show me where in a Peterson video does he say the first sentence here. When you follow it with a quote as you do (the second sentence) , it implies that the previous sentence is not entirely your words.

CBOEtrader says

IQ does, however, predict stratification of society, and IQ is very correlated to racial groups. "I dont have a solution to that, but at least I can point out the problem." -JP Pointing out the problem is the first step towards helping people.

By the way, the statement "IQ is very correlated to racial groups" doesn't even make sense.You can only have a correlation between two numerical variables.

marcus says

I asked a couple times for you to show me where in a Peterson video does he say the first sentence here. When you follow it with a quote as you do (the second sentence) , it implies that the previous sentence is not entirely your words.

Did you watch the video? My first sentence is a summary of their discussion. I believe the second was a direct quote, but ill have to go listen again to be sure.

Again, your only response is HE ISNT SAYING THAT. Well...ok, what do you think he is saying when he points out the Jewish Question IQ example? What do YOU think he saying when he agrees that different groups have different IQ levels, which he describes as heritable and irremediable?

JP says "Differences in [average] gender IQ is trivial. There are differences amongst ethnicities which dont look trivial."

Then he discusses his Jewish IQ question, pointing out that a 15 point average advantage means an enormous over representation amongst geniuses.

You are correct in that he doesnt specifically discuss american blacks having a 15 point disadvantage, and the natural conclusion you can make from this in a logical world. As you point out, this should be an irrelevant fact if we simply choose individuals on their own merits.

Unfortunately the cult of diversity want to force equality of representation in groups. ^^ this is the first reason why it's important to discuss racial IQ differences.

More fundamentally though, lower IQ problems could be fixed. If studied and analyzed, I bet we could narrow that gap and help lower IQ groups immensely. We will never know if everyone who brings it up is called a racist. Congrats on oppressing blacks Marcus:)

marcus says

The title of this thread:

CBOEtrader says

Jordan Peterson pointing out "irremediable and biological" ethnic IQ differences, and why Marcus is wrong

Changed it. But the point of calling you out was to specifically discuss JP's work, as we had a disagreement about his meaning.

CBOEtrader says

I bet we could narrow that gap and help lower IQ groups immensely

One would think, yes, becasue a group is nothing more than a collection of individuals and as noted IQ is heritable.

It seems like cultures (i.e. groups) that place a super high priority on intelligence and the types of competence that lead to success in school and the the job market, in mating decisions., that is the mates that females select, and the hierarchies males in the group compete in for mates, may have a huge impact on average higher IQ in their respective populations becasue of that. If a poorer performing group (say inner city blacks) somehow had a radical change in beliefs and priorities for mate selection, how many generations do you think it would take to bring IQ averages to parity with other groups ? (In my opinion less than 5 maybe just two or three)

So how might institutional policies facilitate such change in group beliefs ? Wouldn't there first need to be enough middle class role models in the group showing the others in the group what "winners" look like ?

To truly understand all these questions is to gain insight in to the reasoning behind affirmative action (which I have mixed opinions about - it depends on the situation).

To be adamantly opposed to all forms of affirmative action, and college quotas etc., is in my opinion tantamount to wanting to make more difficult the progress toward undoing inequality which has come about for many reasons, some of the reasons being independent of biology and more about past prejudices and policies that only served to worsen inequality.

marcus says

how many generations do you think it would take to bring IQ averages to parity with other groups ?

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

marcus says

Wouldn't there first need to be enough middle class role models in the group showing the others in the group what "winners" look like ?

Group is too ambiguous. Will Smith's rich kids should never get favorable treatment to Stanford over an Asian immigrant's children.

I wouldnt have a problem w economic or life difficulty based preferential treatment for college admissions. For example, I saw one of those social media shorts wherein a kid self educated on khan academy and immigrated to the US w no family. Would anyone have a problem giving this kid an SAT fudge factor? Allowing Will Smith's kids a spot over a middle class, second generation Asian american kid is grossly unfair to the asian kid.

I have a huge problem w Macron hiring half women for his cabinet, when only about 20% of the candidate pool is women. IMO, gender/race/genitals should never be a part of an employment application (unless those traits are required to do the job).

CBOEtrader says

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

We agree - I added an opinion to the same effect before reading this. Then you should be more understanding of affirmative action and policies getting more blacks and latinos in to colleges.

CBOEtrader says

I have a huge problem w Macron hiring half women for his cabinet, when only about 20% of the candidate pool is women. IMO, gender/race/genitals should never be a part of an employment application (unless those traits are required to do the job).

Yeah it's stupid. Political. I don't want to see anti-white or anti male prejudice in the the future any more than you do

CBOEtrader says

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

By the way, this contradicts your title for this thread. It's cultural and economic, and not biologically racial, or ethnic, at least not to an extent that's significant.

marcus says

CBOEtrader says

I would guess it could happen within 3 to 5 generations.

By the way, this contradicts your title for this thread. It's cultural and economic, and not biologically racial, or ethnic, at least not to an extent that's significant.

I dont know if science can say how much is nurture vs nature. I'd suggest that better nurture over 3 to 5 generations should improve both the nurture and the nature aspect of the equation.

The reverse is also true. I went to Washington and Lee University in the blue ridge mountains of virginia.

After 150 years of mountain living, some hillbilly local communities all have the same problems as the inner city poor, just with more space between them. These are Scottish/irish decent hillbillies. Meanwhile their cousins who moved away are thriving. The local test scores are garbage, many struggling w proper English. If one of them moves to the bug city, they are normal within 1 generation of decent schools.

And the correlation with shit hole countries is.....?

mell says

If you focus on the US only you could postulate that the difference in social and economic status and thus better access to education for one group is a main driver and thus the test is not "fair". However we have tons of programs directed at helping the poorer and even laws that discriminate against those that score better (affirmative action), yet not much progress is being made and often a toxic culture (high single-motherhood, absence of fathers, crime etc.) remains.

True, I was definitely thinking only in the scope of Americans. As far as programs helping out, that's only true if the program is local(neighborhood). Government programs lack the compassion, accountability, and oversight to be helpful. There are a few who will use them to make their lives better, but they are designed to create dependence, not to improve anyone's status.

mell says

I have no problems accepting that Ashkenazi Jews and many Asians score higher on average than my genetic lineage does

That I think is a point worth considering, but from the perspective of cultural values, not race. You may think I'm being picky, but race and genetics cannot be changed, where cultural values can grow and shift over time. The latter allows that anyone from any race can be intelligent, while the former pigeon holes someone, unfairly, because of something they cannot change. From a cultural perspective, I think it is also important to consider size and how homogeneous the group is. Large groups that allow for more diversity, tend to lose their cultural traits as they mix with people of different backgrounds. Again, is any of this taken into consideration with these studies?