patrick.net

MrMagic says

NuttBoxer says

but what else do you call a company that is largely supported by government programs,

The Tesla fanboys aren't going to like this...

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times.

"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

Space X takes government contracts. Just like any of these companies:

Lockheed Martin
Northrop Grumman
Rockwell Collins
Airbus
Bombardier
Boeing
Raytheon
L-3
General Dynamics
SAIC
Booz Allen
IAP
Harris
Honeywell
GE

The loan Tesla got from the DOE and paid it back in full with interest 9 years early by the way...

MrBark says

Space X takes government contracts.

FYI, government subsidies and government contracts are two completely separate animals.

AntiOcasioCortez says

MrBark says

Ford F150 with the wrong driver seat delivered to a dealer:
https://jalopnik.com/you-really-want-your-ford-f-150-to-have-this-defect-1788085147

Mismatched interior on a Civic.
https://www.civicx.com/threads/mismatched-interior-trim-pieces.4566/

And what does that have to do with Tesla? Stay on topic.

If the topic is apples, then talking about oranges is just you trying to change the topic.

Standard tactic of Kool-Aid drinking Musk Fluffers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluffer

We were discussing quality control at Tesla, so it's very on topic. You seem to know a lot about fluffing, mom must be proud.

MrMagic says

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Have you done any reading about the tax breaks and subsidies that the oil companies receive? Makes what Tesla buyers get look like chump change. Tens of billions of dollars.

Musk is a lightning rod who says dumb shit occasionally.
But he's a helluva engineer and he's one of the few industry leaders actually willing to stick his neck out to try and move society to sustainable energy. Good for him, I say.
socal2 says

Many of the Musk haters are SJW Libs who are pissed that he doesn't tow the line like the rest of the Tech Biz Libs.

Lol where the hell are you getting this? Pretty much everyone who buys a Model S is someone who acknowledges that climate change is real, and they're willing to pay a premium to do something about it, in addition to feeling smug about it. That's pretty much a 'SJW lib' by definition. Musk's fans, I would venture, are definitely liberal leaning. I mean, he quit Trump's advisory council in protest of Trump bowing out of the Paris accord.

MrMagic says

The Tesla fanboys aren't going to like this...

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Strategist says

What do you call a company whose innovations will make the cost of energy almost zero, clean up pollution, and put the Saudis in BK?

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more. Musk deserves another $10 billion in subsidies.

Evan F. says

Lol where the hell are you getting this? Pretty much everyone who buys a Model S is someone who acknowledges that climate change is real, and they're willing to pay a premium to do something about it, in addition to feeling smug about it.

Not all. Some are buying the Tesla because it is an awesomely fast car. And Musk is not your run of the mill unthinking Liberal like we see all over Silicon Valley.

"Elon Musk Donates Big Money to Republicans"
https://www.advocate.com/politics/2018/7/16/elon-musk-donates-big-money-republicans

Here is some of the SJW hate I am talking about:

"Elon Musk Follows Zero Women on Twitter"
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bmv5ev/elon-musk-follows-zero-women-on-twitter

Evan F. says

Pretty much everyone who buys a Model S is someone who acknowledges that climate change is real, and they're willing to pay a premium to do something about it, in addition to feeling smug about it.

They must not be very smart along with being smug. I wonder if they have any idea how electricity is made. No, it does not just come out of the wall outlet like magic. Show's they don't know much about climate change either.

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more.

Exactly... you can thank the rest of the taxpayers in the country for that.

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more. Musk deserves another $10 billion in subsidies.

I don't think anyone 'deserves' subsidies. In the case of green/sustainable energy, I think it's been acceptable to help that industry out too level the playing field, but we're reaching an inflection point where solar cells, electric cars, and other green tech are approaching cost party with their non-green counterparts. When that day actually comes the subsidies need to go away and the market should be allowed too decide.

Same goes for oil companies etc. who receive the equivalent of government subsidies in the form of tax breaks. It's all bullshit corporate welfare. Lightly regulated markets are the best way of deciding what's best..

MrBark says

There is little BS happening at Tesla.

Evan F. says

Musk's fans, I would venture, are definitely liberal leaning.

Strategist says

What do you call a company whose innovations will make the cost of energy almost zero, clean up pollution, and put the Saudis in BK?
Answer: Tesla.

Evan F. says

Musk's fans, I would venture, are definitely liberal leaning.

Liberal doesn’t mean Left. Lots of Leftists are conservatives who don’t like Musk because he’s not. I’ll agree with your statement tho. I break from the right wing conservative crowd here on Patnet over Tesla and Musk. I think what he’s doing is great! He’s taking risks and taking tech further than our government has been able to do. Yes, he’s taken subsidies and government contracts. But he’s delivered on those contracts! We as taxpayers are getting more for our money funding companies like SpaceX than funding NASA.

Majority of the Tesla owners I know are conservatives. The know a good value when they see it. They also have solar on their homes, imagine that.

Electricity became cheap.
Water is expensive now, government always finds a way to get those savings from us.

MrBark says

Majority of the Tesla owners I know are conservatives. The know a good value when they see it. They also have solar on their homes, imagine that.

Evan F. says

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more. Musk deserves another $10 billion in subsidies.

I don't think anyone 'deserves' subsidies. In the case of green/sustainable energy, I think it's been acceptable to help that industry out too level the playing field, but we're reaching an inflection point where solar cells, electric cars, and other green tech are approaching cost party with their non-green counterparts. When that day actually comes the subsidies need to go away and the market should be allowed too decide.

Same goes for oil companies etc. who receive the equivalent of government subsidies in the form of tax breaks. It's all bullshit corporate welfare. Lightly regulated markets are the best way of deciding what's best..

Oil companies have been receiving subsidies for ever. What a waste.

MrMagic says

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more.

Exactly... you can thank the rest of the taxpayers in the country for that.

Thank you taxpayers. Thank you.

You are welcome

Strategist says

MrMagic says

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more.

Exactly... you can thank the rest of the taxpayers in the country for that.

Thank you taxpayers. Thank you.

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

I recently got an Audi S8 as a second car, I drive that for 2 or 3 days and it's $75. I'm never going back to daily driving a gas car.

MrBark says

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

So what.

I have an internal combustion engine (Honda) and I've driven 55,000 miles without a single service issue and still on the original tires. I get 350+ miles of range easily, Your point? And I bet it's a lot faster than your electric push toy and can certainly carry a hell of a lot more.

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

MrMagic says

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours? Payments for generation and delivery are all rolled into the kWh rates we pay. Only low-income people have these subsidized. I doubt any of us quailify as such.

DASKAA says

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours?

Because it was all built out to provide power to your house, long before these electric cars came along.

EV are just piggy backing on to an existing service being paid primarily by homeowners and businesses to keep the lights on.

What if special charging businesses had to be built, just like a gas station, to "fuel" EVs. Then the power had to be trucked in to stock it. What would the cost be then?

This is just another Fanboy apples and oranges comparison.

MrMagic says

DASKAA says

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours?

Because it was all built out to provide power to your house, long before these electric cars came along.

EV are just piggy backing on to an existing service being paid primarily by homeowners and businesses to keep the lights on.

So if I put in a pool which uses 2.5kW pump or add an AC (~7kW) to the house which didn't have it initially I will also be "piggy backing" and "receiving subsidies", even though I will pay my (significantly increased) electricity bill every month? Interesting.

MrMagic says

MrBark says

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

So what.

I have an internal combustion engine (Honda) and I've driven 55,000 miles without a single service issue and still on the original tires. I get 350+ miles of range easily, Your point? And I bet it's a lot faster than your electric push toy and can certainly carry a hell of a lot more.

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming f...

Ha, your Honda is not maintenance-free. How many oil changes have you done and how much time have you spent out of your life doing so? How much time have you spent filling up gas? Brake pads? Fluid changes? Alternators, spark plugs, coil packs, smog checks, etc, etc -- it's all time out of your day and money to keep that engine ticking like a well-oiled machine. 350-miles of range is only relevant when you can't do math to figure out you don't drive your car 350-miles per day. Do you have a gas powered cell phone or do you conveniently plug it in every night and it's good for a whole day of use tomorrow? That's my car.

Push toy lol, you haven't driven an electric car have you? They're torque monsters. My car is faster than a Volkswagen GTI to 40 and will burn out for a good 10 feet off the line without effort. It will beat a Civic to 60 and carry as much cargo as a BMW X3. It's also got all the luxury features you could ask for.

If my electricity is subsidized, so is your gas. Living on the beach, I don't run AC and I have solar. Why the hell would power have to be trucked in? We have an existing infrastructure, it's shipped directly to my house from the sun, right out of thin air. Fanboy, lol yeah right. I'm a car guy through and through.

MrBark says

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

I recently got an Audi S8 as a second car, I drive that for 2 or 3 days and it's $75. I'm never going back to daily driving a gas car.

Don't you care for the oil companies? The Saudis? After all they they done for you all these years, you are gonna dump them? You are so ungrateful.

DASKAA says

So if I put in a pool which uses 2.5kW pump or add an AC (~7kW) to the house which didn't have it initially I will also be "piggy backing"

Does you house already have power lines running to it, an electric meter and a circuit breaker panel? Or will you be installing that all new to power those items?

MrMagic says

And I bet it's a lot faster than your electric push toy and can certainly carry a hell of a lot more.

I doubt it. Electric cars have instant torque.

MrMagic says

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number.

Thank you for your contribution. It's appreciated.

MrMagic says

Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

28% came from coal and falling. We all paid for the infrastructure. Utilities love electric cars, as it's a new source of revenues for them, especially since most charging is done at night when there is no demand for electricity.

DASKAA says

MrMagic says

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours? Payments for generation and delivery are all rolled into the kWh rates we pay. Only low-income people have these subsidized. I doubt any of us quailify as such.

Utilities provide cheap electricity at night when their plants are idle. Utilities love it.

MrMagic says

DASKAA says

So if I put in a pool which uses 2.5kW pump or add an AC (~7kW) to the house which didn't have it initially I will also be "piggy backing"

Does you house already have power lines running to it, an electric meter and a circuit breaker panel? Or will you be installing that all new to power those items?

You mean people consume more power at home than they did in 1960? I'm fucking shocked! Just routers and cable boxes use a ton of power. Of course new appliances use a fraction of what they did back then. What happens if you add central air, an electric dryer or an air compressor in your garage? Where do you draw the line of what I can power in my own home? My car uses an much kWh as central air running for 3 hours and automatically changes off peak for maximum energy savings.

MrBark says

How much time have you spent filling up gas?

Let's see, spending 5 minutes to fill up to go 350 miles versus plugging in for HOURS to drive 80 miles... Hmmmm, let me get my calculator.

MrBark says

Brake pads? Fluid changes? Alternators, spark plugs, coil packs, smog checks, etc, etc -- it's all time out of your day and money to keep that engine ticking like a well-oiled machine.

Let's see what I posted above, it appears reading comprehension is lacking here today:

MrMagic says

I've driven 55,000 miles without a single service issue and still on the original tires.

That means Zero dollars and Zero time.

MrBark says

350-miles of range is only relevant when you can't do math to figure out you don't drive your car 350-miles per day.

But I drive many days way over 80 miles, so what do I do. Pull over to the side of the road, set up my solar panels, plug in my truck, and take a nap for a few hours while it recharges? Yep, great time saver there!!

MrBark says

and I have solar.

That must work awesome to charge your toy electric car overnight... oh, wait... it won't...

MrBark says

Why the hell would power have to be trucked in?

Duh, just like said, if a separate power filling station had to be built to "fuel" your car, how would the power get their, similar to a gas station?

MrBark says

We have an existing infrastructure,

Exactly, that's what I said, you have EXISTING infrastructure that your tapping into. Thanks for making my point.

Strategist says

since most charging is done at night when there is no demand for electricity.

No demand for electricity at night?? Really?

No one has a fridge, turns their lights on, runs their A/C, cooks dinner, washes clothes, heats their water, watches TV etc. at night? California is completely dark at night, except for electric cars being charged?

Wow, I never knew that.

MrMagic says

Strategist says

since most charging is done at night when there is no demand for electricity.

No demand for electricity at night?? Really?

No one has a fridge, turns their lights on, runs their A/C, cooks dinner, washes clothes, heats their water, watches TV etc. at night? California is completely dark at night, except for electric cars being charged?

Wow, I never knew that.

I lied. Very little demand for electricity.

I plug in my car at night, just like my cell phone. Do you use a gas powered cell phone? Must be a bitch once you have to charge it! The horror! I spend zero time waiting for the car to charge, zero time at a gas pump...

You're in for a world of hurt... So you literally haven't changed your oil in 55,000 miles? Or done any other recommended maintenance? Why don't you take care of your possessions?

Look up the figures for how much the average American drives per day, sorry your edge case for range is just that... an edge case...

No idea why you keep bringing up the fact that you need to build a fueling station to charge car...

Obviously my car changes at night, solar saves me a ton of money overall, sorry you don't see the value prop of solar...

MrMagic says

Strategist says

since most charging is done at night when there is no demand for electricity.

No demand for electricity at night?? Really?

No one has a fridge, turns their lights on, runs their A/C, cooks dinner, washes clothes, heats their water, watches TV etc. at night? California is completely dark at night, except for electric cars being charged?

Wow, I never knew that.

Nobody heats their water or drys their clothes with electricity in California, unless you live in the sticks. Who's doing all that shit past midnight anyway?

MrBark says

I plug in my car at night

What about if you drive more than 80 miles during the day. Plus, you have to go through 4 - 5 charging cycles to equal my range, where it takes me 5 minutes to fill up. How many hours does it take for 5 charging cycles?

MrBark says

Who's doing all that shit past midnight anyway?

Wow, it doesn't get dark until midnight in California... amazing..

The things I learn here at Patnet.

MrBark says

Nobody heats their water or drys their clothes with electricity in California, unless you live in the sticks.

Apparently no one has heat pumps either, right?

MrBark says

No idea why you keep bringing up the fact that you need to build a fueling station to charge car...

I know, that concept goes completely over your head, as it relates to using EXISTING infrastructure versus having to build NEW to recharge.

socal2 says

The dude is eccentric and pops off on Twitter. But what Musk has already achieved with SpaceX is astronomical. In about a decade, he has achieved more than NASA, China and Russia in terms of getting costs down for flights to low earth orbit.

Many of the Musk haters are SJW Libs who are pissed that he doesn't tow the line like the rest of the Tech Biz Libs.

Exactly. I'm very skeptical of Tesla but SpaceX has made unbelievable strides.

Again, why would u build new infrastructure? Do we need to build new infrastructure for adding central air too since that's using the same load as the car? Conveniently ignored the other points like you not changing your oil or other scheduled maintenance for 55k miles, that's cool bro. Keep your horse and buggy, shit's working a-okay for you. I'll just keep on keeping on, living in the future.

No one is bringing up the cost per mile for fuel.
Around 3 cents per mile average for electric cars. 15 cents for gasoline cars. Highway and city combined.
The savings on fuel and maintenance are extraordinary.

MrMagic says

MrBark says

I plug in my car at night

What about if you drive more than 80 miles during the day. Plus, you have to go through 4 - 5 charging cycles to equal my range, where it takes me 5 minutes to fill up. How many hours does it take for 5 charging cycles?

Most new electric cars are now in the 200 miles + range. They can charge within minutes with DC charging.

It's funny when Obama was cutting all of the Tech Losers a Check and they were pretending that their capital was all organically raised earnings from investors.
All of these tech companies were boasting how they encourage their employees to take Psychedelics at work. They were higher than a Mother Fucker tripping their balls off having a big ole party on the tax payers dime. As soon as Obama left all of the Tech companies started failing when the Government isn't there to prop them up.


Solar City, the Hyper Tube, the Electric car can't do it without a $8,000 subsidy from me, and what happens when the Batteries stop holding a charge? Those batteries will be $10K a pop. It's amazing how many partisan hacks still believe in Musk and Tesla, they want to believe there is an affordable all electric car, being made in a company that has no production issues, by AI robots from 100 years into the future. The reality wont hit them until they have to plop down 10K for a new battery.

They must be High as Hell too! Look at them! They all high hell, talking about robot factories, hyper tube transportation in a solar city.
www.youtube.com/embed/nRc0yaMW7Mw

MrMagic says

DASKAA says

So if I put in a pool which uses 2.5kW pump or add an AC (~7kW) to the house which didn't have it initially I will also be "piggy backing"

Does you house already have power lines running to it, an electric meter and a circuit breaker panel? Or will you be installing that all new to power those items?

If these items are within the capacity of the existing lines/panels, no need to add anything. And, of course, it's been already paid for by the builder. If they need additional capacity I'll be the one paying for it to be installed. In either case I won't get any "subsidy" from anywhere. Same with the EV, which, I believe, requires no more capacity than your average whole-house A/C.

At the end of the day it’s just a car to get you from A to B. I’m not rich, so cost of ownership is a big deal.

EVs are unknown to me, I can’t fix electric motors. Plus they are twice as expensive. I’m sure they are nice cars, but price is too high.

Also for those who care, in Hong Kong you’ll see those Tesla’s everywhere. Very rich people there, they buy those.