patrick.net

We must dismantle the New Deal and the Great Society and all other Democreat power grabs. And shame on the Republicans for playing along and not really being true to their principles of limited gov't and the free market and thus liberty and freedom. We have not been a free nation for probably about 70-80 years because the mantra has been established into our national psyche: "What's the gov't going to do for me?"
It was Johann Wolfgang Goethe who said, “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.”

This weekend I noticed on the bulletin board of the local grocery store a sign attempting to raise funds to help for the medical costs for a young man that had been badly injured in a motorcycle accident and had no insurance or the personal wherewithall to pay for his ongoing rehabilitation costs. Such fundraisers are far too common, and are seen across a broad dempgraphic spectrum.

This particular person was very likely one of those "young healthy individuals" who thought that he had no need for medical insurance. This demonstrates very clearly the need for an individual manditate and the need for universal coverage. I'm sure this individual's ER treatement will ultimately be paid for by those with insurance or the wherewithall to pay thier medical costs directly, and his ongoing care will be paid medicaid (ultimately the taxpayers).

As a society, we have decided defacto, that everyone who needs medical care will get it through some mechanism. The problem is that we provide those services in the most inefficient, haphazard and costly manner possible. The current system also forces the costs of this inefficiency onto employers and taxpayers.

Kevin says

nosf41 says

You have so much faith in Obama and big government.
How about starting slowly, government does not have the required trillions of $ for Obama health care reform proposal.

But we have the required trillions of $ that we will be spending on medicare during the same time period?

The CEO of Whole Foods wrote the following article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

The CEO of whole foods is a guy who makes his living selling overpriced bullshit to people with more money than time to spend actually studying the facts about what it is that they’re getting — kind of like the way that we currently handle medical care. Nothing more fitting than taking advice from a guy who’s entire business is based on selling people stuff that they don’t need.

Agreed that opposition to universal health care from whole foods CEO sounds phony. This guy charges 4 times margin on basic groceries. Fools with IVY league education and who just plain got lucky in life go there and think how smart they are eating that organic banana....:-) :-)

Kevin, It is a fact that we don't have the money for medicare. It is in huge debt. Back in the early 2000's Alan Greenspan reported that social secutity was $5 trillion in the red and Medicare was $13 trillion in the red and the red ink continues to flow.
Folks, don't be simpletons. Logic would naturally tell you that if we are going to have a national healthcare plan then shouldn't we have a national fruit and vegetable plan to help us be healthy (part of our preventive care), shouldn't we have a national telephone plan so we can call the dr., shouldn't we have a national car plan so we can get to the dr., shouldn't we have a national toilet paper plan (it's shameful the toilet paper that McD's and others make us use) so we can prevent disease, shouldn't we have a national fitness club plan so we can stay fit and healthy, shouldn't we have a etc, etc. The healthcare debate is nothing about healthcare but it is about who is going to control your life.
Question: Why don't we see the Dems fighting for national lawyer care? Well because the trial lawyer association is the sugar daddy of the super wealthy democrats who want to control your life. But logic would say it is not fair that only the rich can afford the lawyers, so we should have a national lawyer plan. NOT! And we should NOT have a national healthcare plan. Wake-up America before your demise issigned, sealed and delivered.

Great Article Patrick. This is a mentally sick country that has demons rooted in a population that has been programed to vote consistently against it's own best interest. It's the same ideology that allowed 100's of thousands of white Americans to die in the civil war who in most cases were too poor to ever own a slave but would send their only child off to die to defend a system that they would never see the full benefits of. This healthcare debate is not about "socialism" or any other nonsense distraction issue that they bring up. This is about white Americans fearing that their white tax dollars will go to benefit the health of minorities. It's not hard to figure out the simple minded. Their arguments simply do not hold up to logic. Rep: Anthony Weiner made a great point that left Joe Scarborough speechless when he asked him. "what value do health insurance provide to the healthcare industry? they don't provide one single check up, nor do they operate on people". For every dollar spent with private insurance $00.35 goes to admin cost including CEO swollen salaries. Medicare has only a 4% admin cost. And if gov't run health care was so evil and bad, why is it that ZERO republican politicians opt out of it and buy their own public plan. That should make any logically thinking person question the sincerity and judgment of the opposition. You don't want ME to have something you enjoy free. What I find even more disingenuous is that the Republican Gop senators and congress men, who are all wealthy enough to afford "private insurance" that they endorse so much choose to have no parts of it regarding their own health. Why is that? This is a racist and dumb country i'm sorry to say. A country that elected for Bush 2x that is now reaping the fruits of their evil motivated behavior. And last, ask your self, what side of the debate do you think Jesus or whatever higher power you believe in (if any at all) would be on? That should end the debate right there. Have a good day ;-)

c16187 says

You should stick to real estate because you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to health, life expectancy and the health care industry in America. I’ve worked in this business for over 20 years from public health to academic research settings, and there is no “crisis” in health care today. What’s happening now in America is that too many Americans are acting irresponsibly. It’s similar to what got us into the real estate mess.
The last thing we need is to have the Federal Government takeover of our health care industry. Just look at what they’ve done to the economy. Are you a freaking idiot?

No you are an Idiot, sir. Federal government screwed up the economy ? I am sure that FOX news channel told you that. Federal government SAVED the economy. We would have been in deep sh*t if not for them. Who bailed out your free market banks and wall street ?

Hi all.
I grew up in Germany and France; both systems are considered superior then the system in the USA. It's right, the socialized systems are massively underfunded. But so is the system in the USA. Per GDP, and per nose, the USA spends far more for care. How come the quality is better in other places? It's because the profits are just less for the Health Care Industry. The remaining dollars are received by the citizens. They don't have better doctors or facilities, but they do have a different attitude. What the citizens here have to decide is whether to take away the fear of it's people to go broke if sick, and pretty close to everybody will if seriously ill, or to protect the profits of it's providers. My wife does lung transplants at mayo clinic, she gets offers for 850k and up every other day. I made as jumbo captain 150k in my best year. Physician salaries are a joke. A brand new MD makes average 160k, more than me in my best year. They are way overpaid. Guess who gets the short end of the stick?

I used to install new kitchen cabinets in Section 8 housing complexes. Apartment after apartment there was always 3 guys sitting on the couch all day watching TV with a single Mom letting her 3 year olds run wild with no supervision. On Thursdays it was government cheese day, so you’d see hundreds of able bodied people huddled around outside waiting for the truck to pass out boxes of food. This is what our country is becoming & now you want to give all these free loaders even more free healthcare? You idiots really are clueless as to what’s going on in this country! Everyone I know is getting sick of working their asses off just to pay for these fucking Leeches!

Some of the best countries IMHO have both private "and" public systems that work together perfectly. Seen it first hand myself and I travel to one of them regularily for check ups that I pay for out of pocket.

Here in Canada however, the land of the "no you cannot have private health care" brand of socialism, people routinely die due to the nature of the health rationing that exists and/or deliberate denial of end of life care that may or may not extend their livelyhoods further after decades of paying exhorbitant taxes to support the "health care system". This is just one of our many problems.

My mother passed away in 2008 due to our system (Patrick has an e-mail on this and he is free to post it if he wants). My wife works directly in the health care system as a medical professional and in her opinion the problems are numerous and all caused by two things, first, the concept of outright socialism in health care, and secondly, the refusal of people and society to accept/punish the consequences of ones own personal actions.

The public hospital where she works are crammed full of people with COPD (smokers lung disease) drug addicts, obese people and alcoholics. You can imagine where I could go with this sentence...........and you would be right.

Both our systems are screwd up badly, we need a renewal of health care, but adopting the socialist approach solely on it's perceived "merits" (which are all false) will not work (just see Canada or the UK for proof) nor will allowing purely for profit care to exist in it's place. We must incorporate both inorder for it to work, as well as hold people who destroy their bodies personally accountable for their actions. The fact that junk food, booze and smokes are legal is irrelevant.....if you are irresponsible, my tax dollars are not going to pay to fix your fat, coughing, drunken ass. Pay for it yourself, as you could afford all the crap you put into your body get in this condition in the first place.

nosf41 says

OK, so what would YOU do to reform health care?

1. Remove any laws preventing insurance companies to offer their services across state lines.
2. Make medical costs transparent - everybody should pay some portion of their health care bill from their own pocket.
3. Tort reform - good doctors should not be forced to pay six figure (US$) amounts for insurance from lawsuits.
4. Balance the government budget to reduce the tax burden. Ever increasing government deficits and national debt will require higher taxes, thus leaving people with less money for everything else including health care.
This includes reducing the military budget: close the majority of overseas bases and return the troops home.

Good start! I agree with all of those. I would add a few more:

5. Make it illegal to deny coverage or raise rates (same thing) because of any existing condition.
6. Present exact bills before providing care, except in emergencies.
7. Do not make individuals pay any more out of pocket than any insurer has to pay for the same thing.

I'm glad you agree that:

A: We need heath care reform.
B: There are things the government can do to help.

c16187-"The last thing we need is to have the Federal Government takeover of our health care industry. Just look at what they’ve done to the economy. Are you a freaking idiot?"

The Fed has caused much of the economic troubles, which IS NOT A PART OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Read the fine print.

When the majority of folks who view the public health option as "free" discover that it is not free....support for these proposals will be greatly diminished. Folks there is no free lunch! With that said, the provision of health care can be greatly improved.

I have worked in health care for 40 years and do have a few thoughts on how to control costs:

-Localize resources...we do not need a MRI etc. on each corner. Localities should band together to ensure that adequate resources exist so that everyone can get a service within a reasonable time...say two weeks....and reduce the duplication of services.
-Decrease defensive medicine practices...control trial lawyers and you control a significant portion of health care costs.
-Control the borders and you control health care costs....remember,even a lifeboat can sink when overloaded. The current proposal as written will serve as another magnet to draw more illegals across the border since everyone will be covered....with our tax dollars.
-Reward practices that show good outcomes with reduced costs...good cost/benefit measures
-Offer county public health services for those who do not have insurance. Many folks who can afford premiums choose not to be insured. Public health care is no frills and focuses on prevention practices.
-If we really are concerned that many fall through the gap, encourage those who really have low income to apply for Medicaid. If they do not qualify for Medicaid wage limits, then apply for each county's hospital district coverage which is provided on a sliding scale.
-Continue to expand the regulation of "marketing" by pharmaceutical companies.
-Get rid of lobbyists in all areas. We need to listen to constituents...not special interests.
-Allow NO political special deals for AMA, AARP, Pharma companies etc. These organizations support the current proposal because they were given special "considerations" by the White House in exchange for their support.
-Eliminate all pre-existing exclusions on all insurance policies.
-Allow all small businesses to band together to get best premium pricing. (Offer several options much like AARP offers.)
-Allow consumers to secure policies from neighboring states.
-Allow consumers to get medications from Canada etc. We need to increase competition...not destroy it!
-Ensure that everyone pays something out of pocket everytime they use health care....cost shifting needs to stop!
-Encourage states to pilot various health care solutions. This way we can adopt the best of the best tested ideas .

I too am very familiar with the health care offered in Ireland, England, and Canada. (BTW, all are trying to find alternative health care solutions because of the cost.) Additionally, the stories of waiting long times for "elective" surgery are true. One of my family in the UK waited over two years for gall bladder surgery. Every time her "number" came up, she was contacted and told that the priorities had changed due to "flu season costs" etc. She finally went and paid for the surgery herself. Oh, yes...their health care system is great until you really need care. (Fortunately for her, UK has a public system and a private one ....Canada does not have this option.)

As to rationing, think! How will we as a nation cover 43+ million more folks while reducing the percent of GDP that we spend on health care? When our budget states that we will spend no more than 12 percent of GDP on health care (example) then that becomes the dollar number and health priorities are set. Decisions will be made on these health priorities. Call it what you wish but rationing is what it is...

One other point, our government is already our country's largest health care provider through Medicaid and Medicare. Review their success at controlling costs and fraud in these programs before you consider giving over more control. With increased government (and insurance) control, health care costs spiraled out of control.

Changes are needed to be sure but a THOUGHTFUL DEBATE needs to occur before we turn over our health care to anyone. My grandparents had a saying that seems applicable "Act in haste, repent in leisure"

Yes, we need to change the "bathwater" but also we need to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. Let your federal and state representatives know of your thoughts for controlling health care costs.

The biggest problem was Trying to Push this through Too Fast.
That Scared People, as Nobody Seemed to have Heard all of the Details.
I think that caused people to start throwing around a lot of False Interpretations.
That led to a "Frenzy of this Administration", and 2/3 of the Nation Ran the other way!

How about taking a set amount of Tax Dollars to Fund Our Elections.
Have the FCC have a Clause, that a set amount of Airtime be Given to the Parties seeking Election.
Create a True 3 Party System, instead of the Failed 2 Parties of Republicans and Democrats.
Start Banning all of the "Payoffs" (Oh, I mean CONTRIBUTIONS) from These Lobbyists from Big Business.

Not Too Many Voters, TRUST the Majority of Politicians.
10 Years in Congress should be the Limit.
This is because of All the PAC Money, which Corrupts Policy.
The Corruption Needs to End, then once the Politicians are Representing the People, instead of Big Business, a true form of Ideas will Take Shape.

Once the GREED has Diminished, We will All be Better Off!!!

One other Point I would Like to make, is Governments Reckless Spending.
When they are actually able to Live with their Means, and Stop Wasting so much of Our Tax Dollars, then People might actually TRUST Them to Make Good Policy Decisions.
Bailing Out Corporations with Our Tax Dollars, because they also Failed to Analyze Their Risks, is BAD Policy.

Once Again, TRUST has been Shaken and the FAITH of the American People in Government, has Greatly Diminished.

I Mean, Seriously, WHY are Corporations Funding Politicians Campaigns, because they like Them?
Anyone in Their Right Mind Can See this is The #1 Problem Right Now.
We are on a Path to Self Destruction, and Need PAC Elimination Immediately!!!

Hello Patrick, Love your site, and I must say I really appreciate your taking the time to consolidate all the real estate bubble info.

One thing about your first point however that many people miss....

The reason 29 countries have higher life expectencies then America is due to higher homocide and accident rates in America. If you take out the murders and car accidents, Americans have the highest life expectancy. Now this is a sad commentary perhaps on our gun culture and unsafe roads..but it says little about are health system

My Data comes from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control
Source: http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/09/natural-life-expectancy-in-united.html

It has been argued however that better health care system would have saved more accident victims and thus would have boosted life expectancy. However, a Harvard study has shown that it is in fact our superior health care system that allows us the lower the actual homocide rates...to a still high number, but counter to the argument listed above.

Source: Harvard Study
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/12/us/medical-gains-reduce-deaths-from-assaults.html?sec=&spon=

Another reason we have a lower life expectency is because of our low infant survival rate. We have an intolerably high infant mortality rate (die before first birthday) ... Again, I would argue that this has more to do with poor education and 'culture' then a 'broken health' care' system. This report shows that factors such as drug use, low level of education, and single mother (absent father) contribute just as to the lowe rate then the health care system.

Source: CBO
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/62xx/doc6219/doc05b.pdf

Finally, the last reason we have a lower life expectency rate is because Americans are by far more obese then other industrialized nations...again - something that has very little to do with our health care system, but more from our 'fast food nation' culture.

I agree that we need some sort of reform, so I hope you don't feel that I don't agree that some reform is necessary - I just wanted to add context to your first point.

Again, thanks for your site.

Patrick,

I have greatly appreciated your insightful commentary on the housing crisis. And so I am surprised that you so uncritically accept the statistics on life expectancy and their relation to various healthcare systems. Much, if not all, the life expectancy data is explained by the very different lifestyles Americans choose to live. We have a much higher rate of obesity, teenage pregnancy, and violence then the rest of the Western world which greatly skews are statistics of life expectancy downward. If you look at survival statistics of specific illnesses, adjusted for severity, we compare very favorable with the rest of the world. I am not excusing our overeating and our propensity to shoot and stab each other, but unfortunately I do not see any of the healthcare proposals put forth putting a dent in these social problems.

And we do have a government health plan that people are very happy with. It is called Medicare. And it is very, very broke. It currently has an unfunded liability that is in the tens of trillions of dollars. Please explain how you plan on expanding that system, which politically has been very resistant to any change for DECADES, and save money.

And the rest of the posters: please stop with the nonsense that cutting physician salaries would solve the problem. Physician salaries are a very small percent of the overall healthcare budget and have increased at a much slower rate then healthcare inflation overall. You could cut the salary of very physician in half today and it would put a very small dent in our funding problem. People want a simple solution to a very complex problem.

We need to make people more responsible for their lifestyle decisions. I admit I do not have a great idea of how to do that. But, it really will not matter what system is put in place if we continue overeating, smoking, drinking, not exercising, having kids at age fifteen, and stabbing each other we will continue to compare unfavorably with the rest of the world.

1. Remove any laws preventing insurance companies to offer their services across state lines.
2. Make medical costs transparent - everybody should pay some portion of their health care bill from their own pocket.
3. Tort reform - good doctors should not be forced to pay six figure (US$) amounts for insurance from lawsuits.
4. Balance the government budget to reduce the tax burden. Ever increasing government deficits and national debt will require higher taxes, thus leaving people with less money for everything else including health care.
This includes reducing the military budget: close the majority of overseas bases and return the troops home.
5. Enable individuals to start Tax Free Medical Savings Accounts. Tax and penalty free for covered expences.
6. Federal Tax Free status for parents of disabled children.
7. Federal Tax Free status for disabled veterans.
8. Enable individuals to purchase individual programs from providers rather than group programs.
9. Enable choice and freedom shop for providers.
10. If all else fails, demand that we have the very same coverage as your senator.

It's not that government is not doing enough, they have done too much already.

Hear, hear, Patrick. You articulated many of the things I've been saying for years. And this recent nonsense about rationing and death panels? PLEASE! Who has more incentive to ration care? An organization concerned about its profits? Or the government?

While other countries' heatlh care systems have plenty of problems, the U.S. system is FAR from being the best.

It's bit overrated. In this country many physicians became MD's after being engineers or accountants. And most them say that it's easier job and better paid. I'm not kidding. Higher debt? Right, because it's proportionally more paid then, say, accountant's job.
As for high life expectancy of Hispanics. You guys should remember that only Hispanics are actually looking for medical help and who're propertly registered are mostly legals and well paid. Most illegals are not even registered. If they die, nobody cares to figure our their age, cause or anything else.

nosf41 is in the right direction. Patrick is off the wall. Patrick, there are other solutions out there - obviously you don't check them out. I would rather you not to because you are doing a decent job on housing/banking. You have a right to your opinions. It all goes back to the philosophy of government and the proper role of government. Socialized healthcare WILL bankrupt the state in the long run! Can you make a Constitutional argument for it? I am not a Republican. You bash the insurance companies. Don't you realize that they are only reacting to regulated market condition and make profits in a regulated environment? Insurance companies are not the problem. The Gov't is the problem (in Reaganese term). The free market has not failed. The Gov't failed.

Patrick, the issue of life expectancy is much more complicated than you think. Many other countries don't take stats the same way as we do. It is not apple for apple comparison. Other factors unrelated to healthcare delivery plays a role like diet, lifestyle, ethnicity, environment, murder rates, immigration, involvement in wars, etc.

After reading more of these - dg1j is right on.

dg1j says

Kevin, It is a fact that we don’t have the money for medicare. It is in huge debt. Back in the early 2000’s Alan Greenspan reported that social secutity was $5 trillion in the red and Medicare was $13 trillion in the red and the red ink continues to flow.
Folks, don’t be simpletons. Logic would naturally tell you that if we are going to have a national healthcare plan then shouldn’t we have a national fruit and vegetable plan to help us be healthy (part of our preventive care), shouldn’t we have a national telephone plan so we can call the dr., shouldn’t we have a national car plan so we can get to the dr., shouldn’t we have a national toilet paper plan (it’s shameful the toilet paper that McD’s and others make us use) so we can prevent disease, shouldn’t we have a national fitness club plan so we can stay fit and healthy, shouldn’t we have a etc, etc. The healthcare debate is nothing about healthcare but it is about who is going to control your life.
Question: Why don’t we see the Dems fighting for national lawyer care? Well because the trial lawyer association is the sugar daddy of the super wealthy democrats who want to control your life. But logic would say it is not fair that only the rich can afford the lawyers, so we should have a national lawyer plan. NOT! And we should NOT have a national healthcare plan. Wake-up America before your demise issigned, sealed and delivered.

Oh what a load of bull. We don't have nationalized variations of those things because they have reasonably efficient markets. Health care does not (and can not) have anything remotely resembling an efficient market.

There are definitely options other than "socialized medicine" (i.e. the UK), and they all have their trade offs. All of them are better than what we have here today though. The systems of Canada, the UK, Australia, Switzerland, and Japan are all quite different from one another. Pick any one of them and we'll probably be OK.

Why should we or I subsidize healthcare for others? Taking from Peter to pay Paul? "Free" or subsidized Healthcare is not a right. Why should I pay (with my taxes) heaalthcare for unhealthy and immoral lifestyle such as those who don't care to take care of their bodies? Why should I pay for immoral lifestyles such as homosexuality? Gays have on of the lowest life expectancy. Why sould I pay for murder (abortions and infanticide)? Why should I pay for illegal aliens? Why should I pay for out of wedlock pregnancies and birth? All of these will be part of Nat'l healthcare and are major costs.

Kevin - you appeared to be ignorant about the major problems with UK and Canada's. You have tremendous faith in gov't provided programs. I have not seen one successful gov't program. Do you call SS, Medicare, Fannie and Fredie, post office, Fed Res banking, US Treasury, IMF, UN Programs and etc successful? Nat'l healthcare will likely lead to punitive medicine.

to c16187: I don't know what you are smoking, but maybe the high salaries of physicians is more explainable with the limitation of medical school enrollments since the late 1970's, which the medical lobby orchestrated to keep up their loot, and the 80million or so more people in the country, rather than anything else; anyway, if you want to be a jumbo captain you go through at least as much studying and years of service as an MD in whatever speciality; I just remember who turned out to be a doctor in my high school class, and I'm already scared to go to the hospital. Please sir don't call me an idiot; a general physician istn't worth a dime more then 80k and a specialist maybe up to 200k; that's what they are worth, they know it and that's why we have FOX NEWs to spin that fact; but then MD in this country are generally part of the problem not the solution, inspite their oath. Next time you fly, think about your stupid comment.

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wcalleallegre says

Why should we or I subsidize healthcare for others? Taking from Peter to pay Paul? “Free” or subsidized Healthcare is not a right. Why should I pay (with my taxes) heaalthcare for unhealthy and immoral lifestyle such as those who don’t care to take care of their bodies? .

You already do subsidize those people when you (or your employer) pays your heath insurance premium. Do you think that the only people who want public health care are gays and immoral / unhealthy people? Do you think that those kind of people are not subscribed to private health care now?

I guess your health coverage comes from sources that screen out people you don't approve of.

Google "health-status insurance" for a free market solution to covering people that can cover everyone-even those that come down with a chronic illness.

Health-status insurance is basically insurance to cover your higher health insurance premiums in the event you get really sick. If you get cancer or something and your rates go up, they'll pay a lump sum into your health savings account. This way your health insurance provider will want to keep you and provide competitive rates since you'll be able to pay.

The reason it doesn't really exist right now though is because of the tax distortions in employer based health coverage and other government distortions. Check out the links for more detail.

I wish more Republicans would offer plans like this, but they don't have the power anyway. Reform is needed, but a costly universal plan is not the solution.

I do see a connection between housing and healthcare because these are two things that are VERY IMPORTANT TO ME and affect my ability to move and live where I would like. I feel pretty much stuck where I am because I can't afford to move or buy a home and even if I could, I'm afraid of leaving my job and losing my current health insurance. If I were to leave my job, I could get COBRA, but could not sustain the cost for long, which would be nearly $1,000 a month. If it were just me, I might take the chance in moving, but with a family, I am not willing to risk losing their coverage too. I once knew a lady who quit her job and didn't get COBRA and was going to sail around the world with her boyfriend. She was in her late 30s and had always had health care. The very next month, she had acute appendicitis and ended up with a $20,000 bill she is still paying off to this day.

So...I am just staying put right now even though I would love to move.

People are certainly entitled to their political views, but no matter how you feel, you must agree that our current healthcare and housing systems are not sustainable. Neither system can go on and ultimately, the same thing that happened with housing will happen with healthcare---the system will simply collapse. I hope we can all keep an open and civil mind because no matter your persuasin, we all have a vested interest in creating economically stable systems, and neither housing or healthcare are stable in their current form.

wcalleallegre says

Why should we or I subsidize healthcare for others?

You already do. Your insurance plan pays for other people, and all those people who get treated at emergency rooms without insurance are also being subsidized by you.

wcalleallegre says

Why should I pay (with my taxes) heaalthcare for unhealthy and immoral lifestyle such as those who don’t care to take care of their bodies?

Why should I pay for roads when I do not drive? Why should I pay for firefighters when my home has never burned down?

wcalleallegre says

Kevin - you appeared to be ignorant about the major problems with UK and Canada’s.

How so? Please elaborate.

You have tremendous faith in gov’t provided programs.

Some, sure. I think the fire department works pretty well. I have some issues with potholes, but I think the DMV is generally doing OK. I'm not a big fan of our absurdly expensive military and their $8 cans of soda though.

I have not seen one successful gov’t program.

It helps if you open your eyes.

Do you call SS,

Mostly, yeah, assuming they fix the long-term funding problem. SS is extremely successful at what it was designed to do.

Medicare,

Again, yeah, assuming they fix the long-term funding problem. I'm not anywhere near 65 so I can't personally vouch for medicare one way or the other, but when I compare the stuff that my dad has gone through with medicare to the stuff I've gone through with my private insurer, I would much rather have the medicare.

Fannie and Fredie,

That's a tough one. I disagree with a lot of recent decisions that they've made, but you can't deny that they've succeeded in their objective -- to improve home ownership rates.

post office,

Yes, the post office is very successful, thank you very much. Thank god our constitution provided for it.

Fed Res banking,

If by "Res" you mean "Rescue", yes, it has been successful. The banks were saved, and that was the whole point. We're paying out the ass for AIG, but, again, the results were on target with the objective -- what normal people would call a "success". If the plan was to save the banking sector without spending a penny, we obviously failed, but that wasn't the goal.

US Treasury,

Why, yes, the US Treasury is quite good at being book keepers -- exactly the purpose that they were created to serve.

IMF,

The IMF has a mixed track record of success, but it's not a government organization either.

UN Programs

Which ones? The UN as a whole has been very successful, given that it's purpose was to prevent WWII-style mass conflicts. Some UN programs are successful by any metric, others aren't so great. I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand though.

and etc successful?

I definitely consider "etc" successful. After all, even you're using it in your posts. Quite the endorsement.

Nat’l healthcare will likely lead to punitive medicine.

Punitive medicine? Holy shit, they're going to start using medicine to actively harm us, just like they do in Canada! Thank you for enlightening us!

EBounding says

The reason it doesn’t really exist right now though is because of the tax distortions in employer based health coverage and other government distortions. Check out the links for more detail.

It's just so typical that the One True Solution(tm) would have some abstract concept like "distortion". Fucking abstracts, they ruin everything! When we people learn that if we just implemented the half-baked plans proposed by clueless economists, bloggers, and internet trolls we would solve all of our problems and live in the land of milk and honey?

I wish more Republicans would offer plans like this, but they don’t have the power anyway. Reform is needed, but a costly universal plan is not the solution.

I know, really! Maybe we should have a Republican house, senate, and presidency for 6 years so that they can really fix this country!

When RICO Came down on the Mafia, they Got into The Legitimate Insurance Business...

If my healthcare is majority paid for by everyone else but me, what is my incentive to live healthy?

Just like, if my financial failures is majority paid for by taxpayers, what is my incentive to not make bad financial decisions?

Any kind of health care reform needs to preserve the reward/punishment aspects, or it will be fraught with abuse and fraud.

Frohickey says

If my healthcare is majority paid for by everyone else but me, what is my incentive to live healthy?

The desire not to die a slow and painful death.

Would you really like to compare rates of obesity and other preventable diseases in the US against countries with universal health coverage? Because you will lose the argument.

Frohickey says

Just like, if my financial failures is majority paid for by taxpayers, what is my incentive to not make bad financial decisions?

Well, two points here:

1. You live in a fantasy world if you believe that there are no consequences for living an unhealthy lifestyle just because "somebody else" is paying for it. Medical care just isn't that good anywhere.

2. In the same vein, the desire not to be broke will be the incentive not to make bad decisions. What the bailouts do is understate the cost of RISK, which is a very different issue altogether. Nobody intentionally makes "bad" financial decisions.

Frohickey says

Any kind of health care reform needs to preserve the reward/punishment aspects, or it will be fraught with abuse and fraud.

Your reward: You live a long, healthy, comfortable life.
Your punishment: You live a short, sick, painful life.

This line of reasoning is truly bizarre. What kind of mental malfunction do you need to have to think that money is the only motivation that people have for everything that they do in life?

This health care debate is a sham. It will be passed the same way the bailout was passed, the Iraq war was passed. Same show, different theater. Railroaded under the auspice of some medical emergency - the contrived swine flu epidemic or some sort of cr*p.
(http://web.mac.com/donnicoloff/directlightproductions.com/Printable_Articles//Entries/2009/9/2_Entry_1.html)
As an insurance agent, even I know that the insurance companies are greedy bast*rds, but they pale in comparison to having the government run health insurance. (Quite frankly, the government will outsource the process to the largest insurance firms anyway, so it is complete bullsh*t.)

The government has NO business running healthcare, it is not in their charter. I would no more trust these thieving crooks acting as elected officials to run healthcare than I would drive by a cop flipping him off. It just doesn't make sense.

If you are concerned about healthcare, organize your community to fund your local hospital and cut a local private health care program where you have purchasing power and influence. Letting the federal crooks run this sham is dangerous to your health.

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2008/11/25/corrupt_to_the_core.htm

Hi, I haven't really studied the health care plan that Obama is trying to pass, I'm one of the people that probably should, but I don't think I will be around when it is passed or not. Right, no plan is perfect, nothing is perfect. We live in a country that will bend over backwards helping foreign countries when they hit a disaster such as Haiti, that's not the bad thing, the bad thing is; we ignore the disasters in our own country. There are people dying, hungry, and homeless and in need of healthcare we don't bend over backwards for our own.

I am dying from a rare blood disease sooner than I have to, with proper care I could live to an old ripe age, and be a productive US citizen but I probably won't be able to see my only child make college, I am a single divorced parent. I lost my medical insurance when I lost a good job, because my disease decided to act up, during treatment I missed to much work. I lost my home, my car and my scholarships; I decided to return to college for my daughter’s sake. We now live in a low income apartment, thank God in a decent enough small town and neighborhood and my daughter doesn’t know the difference, well she hasn't mentioned it if she has. Well my doctor last year decided that he couldn't see me or treat me anymore without payment. Someone mentioned that people should pay a portion of their medical. I agree, if I could I would be very happy too as well as help someone else out; right now it's either buy food or pay bills. I do work when I can a part time job that just gave me a pay cut and cut my hours, I'm thankful to still have a job. Recently, I became more ill, my liver is causing me problems, my heart is now effected, my spleen swells and I can't eat well, all could have been avoided if I could have continued my health care. I'm afraid my disease has turned to cancer. I sat on the phone for days trying to convince doctors to see me; I tried their payment plans, but guess what? I don't earn enough money to qualify for their payment plans! The joke is on me, I thought the payment plans were suppose to be for people like me. I just signed legal papers for custody of my daughter to go to a friend of mine, (in case) and paid my bill money to fight to keep her father away from her, he's very abusive we are somewhat hiding. Well, you get my story. I know there are a lot of us out there in my situation; it makes me cringe when I hear that more doctors have volunteered to go overseas or to some foreign country to aid the sick and dying there; volunteering their services and leaving the sick to dying here because they don't see the need to volunteer their services when they basically told me I'm pretty much screwed. It's really great to give charity to our overseas neighbors but doesn’t charity start at home firsts? We can't help ourselves right now; just think, if we can raise millions to help those in need in other countries, can't we do it for our own?
This may be off subject a bit, but I needed to say what I did.

Jeweled - the problem is that the people who make the decisions have excellent healthcare and therefore don't have to choose between food & healthcare. The Glen Becks of the world, along with Faux news reporters, will never have to worry about access to healthcare. In fact, most people who criticize the system don't have medical problems and believe that situations such as yours are the exception.

Healthcare shouldn't be for-profit. I don't begrudge MD's & other medical personnel in making money for their jobs. I do have a problem with a huge insurance conglomerate denying coverage in order to make huge profits, or raising their rates astronomically to do so. People who believe that everyone has had the access to healthcare in this country are ill-informed. Even those people who report on the issues are out-of-touch; Anderson Cooper is so unbelievably wealthy that he could never understand what it's like to choose between healthcare & food. And when people imply that our healthcare problems are brought on by unhealthy lifestyles, they're displaying their extreme ignorance.

Physicians offer their services to third-world countries for various reasons, one of which an MD friend told me is the ability to provide medicine across state lines without going thru licensure requirements and also not having to worry about malpractice lawsuits. Many of them are also ill-informed and believe that we have free or low-cost healthcare available here.

dg1j says

Question: Why don’t we see the Dems fighting for national lawyer care? Well because the trial lawyer association is the sugar daddy of the super wealthy democrats who want to control your life. But logic would say it is not fair that only the rich can afford the lawyers, so we should have a national lawyer plan. NOT! And we should NOT have a national healthcare plan. Wake-up America before your demise issigned, sealed and delivered.

I would say that the reason no one is calling for "national lawyer care" is that people don't die without access to lawyers. Even those seeking the death penalty have free legal assistance. I do realize that legal services are expensive and not everyone has the ability to pay legal fees - but this isn't a life or death issue for most people.

I'm not saying that the current plan is the optimal one - although I do find it amusing that many states, mine included, has unlimited monies to challenge the new healthcare reform yet are laying people off right & left and reporting huge cutbacks in services. Apparently not in the offices of the attorneys general - and they're obviouly ignoring that the layoffs are creating more uninsured people. But they don't care because they'd like to be re-elected by the dwindling numbers of people still employed.

Anyone can get sick. Anyone can be in an accident or suffer a life-changing event. Pain & suffering is inhumane in a civilized society. Healthcare should never, ever be an option.

1logicalthinker says

I don’t understand why so many people are opposed to spending 1 trillion dollars on Universal Healthcare for ten years, but so few people care that the Pentagon spends over $600,000,000,000 every year with nothing to show for it.

....

Our military couldn’t even stop 4 guys with box cutters. According to the Pentagon’s own list, there are 865 U.S. military bases around the world, not including Iraq and Afghanistan. Close half of those bases, bring the troops home, and we’ll have more than enough money to pay for healthcare. Of course, that would require “real change” in this country.

He bring up a good point, think of all the billions of dollars the Military wastes every year and you don't have anyone picketing the White House about that. While I wouldn't say we have nothing to show for our tax dollars spent on our military, they certainly waste a lot of money. Think of all the billions dumped into the Star Wars program, what do we have to show for that money? I would guesstimate that of the 600 billion we spend on the military every year, 50 billion get wasted on dead end programs, defense contractors defrauding the government and just plain waste. Just one example was a new electromagnetic launching system for a new aircraft carrier, they spent millions on it and couldn't get it to work, they ripped it out and installed the old steam catapult system in its place. Over 10 years the money wasted on the military is a more than what we will spend on national health care coverage, but no one rioting in the streets about that.

As for bases we maintain in foreign countries, 250,000 military personnel are stationed overseas. If it cost 100k for pay, feed and house each person, your looking at 25 billion dollars alone in just basic support. That doesn't account for the hardware required to operate these bases. While I don't agree that closing all the bases is a good idea, we certainly do not need as many as we have. 700 bases? That's an average of 350 personnel per base, an average of 3.5 bases per country worldwide, naturally the number is higher since bases there are no bases in places like North Korea, Iran and any former Soviet Union country. I sure we can manage with 100 bases, perhaps a dozen or so larger regional bases and the others smaller bases to provide support. Even trimming 50,000 personnel would save 5 billion dollars a year, the sale of non-military equipment, sale of the land and the reduced cost to support the remaining bases could add up to hundreds of billions of dollars.

On your next major medical visit. Hire your own doctor and rent the hospital room from the hospital. I talked to a guy with no insurance who did this for cancer treatment and spent under 10000.00
If he had insurance it would have been over 50,000.00.
Obama's health bill will provide benefits to people that pay nothing. YOUR premiums will still go up.

beershrine says

On your next major medical visit. Hire your own doctor and rent the hospital room from the hospital. I talked to a guy with no insurance who did this for cancer treatment and spent under 10000.00
If he had insurance it would have been over 50,000.00.
Obama’s health bill will provide benefits to people that pay nothing. YOUR premiums will still go up.

We've already covered that actual costs are usually 25-30% of billed charges. And insurance companies pay substantially less than the billed charges as well. The problem is that many doctors, clinics, hospitals, etc won't take someone who's private pay, even if they have the ability to pay out of pocket. And one wrong turn, one complication, and the costs are astronomical. Your argument doesn't apply to the masses.

elliemae says

We’ve already covered that actual costs are usually 25-30% of billed charges. And insurance companies pay substantially less than the billed charges as well. The problem is that many doctors, clinics, hospitals, etc won’t take someone who’s private pay, even if they have the ability to pay out of pocket. And one wrong turn, one complication, and the costs are astronomical. Your argument doesn’t apply to the masses.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is to nationalize the health care system. If the Health Care system has a 400% markup on the product it produces, perhaps even an inefficient government system that only 200% wasteful will be an improvement over what we have now. No private doctors / hospitals, everyone is a government worker now that draws a salary.