patrick.net

Excluding the sale of NextRx, what was their profit margin, Troy?

Point taken on the subsidiary sale, but I already listed their overhead. 75% of premiums go to care. 25% overhead. It's right on the 10-K.

Troy says

Excluding the sale of NextRx, what was their profit margin, Troy?
Point taken on the subsidiary sale, but I already listed their overhead. 75% of premiums go to care. 25% overhead. It’s right on the 10-K.

That is irrelevant. Despite any strawman argument that those opposing the Democrats' plans must think all is OK with the system and health insurance companies, no one does.

The real point here is that you just parrotted (in this case please try not to take my use of that term personally) administration talking points that are little more than propaganda, because they attempt to portray the insurance industry - Wellpoint in this particular case - as much more profitable than they are, to politically incite people against them. You accepted the point about the sale, presumably because you understand how that works. The majority of people do not have any idea. Therefore they are easy pray to this type of propaganda. How is it ANY different from what you may think comes from Fox, Rush, or Beck, other than it is from the actual government that you want us to trust? Ask yourself, why does the administration have to lie by omission? Or are they incompetent?

Wow, responses to this thread seemed to dry up quick.... It must be just too much for some to acknowledge that the issue here just may not be private industry and may be government management, or that some of the liberals here are victims of government administration propaganda....

The same people post the same threads every time. It's boring, libs vs. conservatives. I'm waiting for Mikey to return, he's fun.

"Those opposing the health care bill but lacking any alternative ideas (you’re the poster boy for this) are a complete waste of time and shouldn’t be involved in the dialog. "

Of course, if I did offer any alternatives that happened to coincide with what Republicans are already proposing for some fixes, those would also be simply dismissed as "talking points," so clearly, ANYTHING anyone proposes that is not specifically an increased-government-control solution appears to be a waste of time in your opinion.

Meanwhile, In order to make the point that the ship is actually sinking, and sinking fast, the White House itself is engaging in PROPAGANDA. The Wellpoint profit is the perfect example. If everything was exactly as they say regarding both the problem and the solution, why not just present things honestly?

Perhaps dishonesty from the White House itself in order to incite people doesn't bother you.

Paralithodes--

Let me ask this then--

1. Do you agree that the US outspends every other country in the world in health care costs/person?
2. Do you agree that the US is somewhere in the middle of health care rankings? Based on outcomes?
3. Do you think that there is some reason why the US couldn't adopt the best of other countries' plans?

Tatupu, all good, valid questions. I will have to go back to my original question.... If things are as they say, why did the Administration engage in propaganda regarding Wellpoint, by misrepresenting its profits to the people in order to incite anger against insurance companies? If the issue is so clear, why engage in this? Why should someone who recognizes this type of dishonesty have any trust that - referring to your questions (1) this is relevant since the focus is on the middle man, (2) this is true without carefully examining the validity individual component comparisons and the weightings of each in the "ranking" (weightings are usually subjective), and (3) you already agree that the current plan does nothing of the sort?

Paralithodes says

Tatupu, all good, valid questions. I will have to go back to my original question…. If things are as they say, why did the Administration engage in propaganda regarding Wellpoint, by misrepresenting its profits to the people in order to incite anger against insurance companies? If the issue is so clear, why engage in this? Why should someone who recognizes this type of dishonesty have any trust that - referring to your questions (1) this is relevant since the focus is on the middle man, (2) this is true without carefully examining the validity individual component comparisons and the weightings of each in the “ranking” (weightings are usually subjective), and (3) you already agree that the current plan does nothing of the sort?

So, do I understand this to be a very long way to say no? To all three questions? If you'll answer those, then I'll tackle your questions.

Paralithodes says

Tatupu: You can consider it to be a very long way of saying that I’m not willing to play diversionary games. Your questions are all good, but they are not directly related to my question/point to which you were responding. I should have just been as direct as you: “If you’ll answer [my questions], then I’ll tackle your questions.”

I wasn't responding to any of your points. I was asking you 3 questions. I was trying elevate the discussion away from partisan BS into something useful. But if you'd like to get back into the same old liberal/conservative rehashing, then by all means continue with your usual postings.

Nomograph says

Your arguments rapidly fall apart when facts become introduced.

Yet someone else who doesn't want to address why the Administration was putting forth propaganda regarding Wellpoint's profits....

And wow, you made a clever take-off of my screen name to throw out a personal attack! I take it that is one of the "facts" that you have introduced that make my arguments fall apart...

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

Tatupu: You can consider it to be a very long way of saying that I’m not willing to play diversionary games. Your questions are all good, but they are not directly related to my question/point to which you were responding. I should have just been as direct as you: “If you’ll answer [my questions], then I’ll tackle your questions.”

I wasn’t responding to any of your points. I was asking you 3 questions. I was trying elevate the discussion away from partisan BS into something useful. But if you’d like to get back into the same old liberal/conservative rehashing, then by all means continue with your usual postings.

So it is partisan BS to point out that the Administration engaged in partisan BS by twisting and misrepresenting Wellpoints profits for the purpose of getting people even more angry at insurance companies, and to ask what valid reason they would have to do so?

My lord--you're that surprised that politicos try to spin a story to support their agenda? Are you kidding me? This is the lead story on th 10 O'Clock news in your world?

Now--can we try to get somewhere?

tatupu70 says

My lord–you’re that surprised that politicos try to spin a story to support their agenda? Are you kidding me? This is the lead story on th 10 O’Clock news in your world?
Now–can we try to get somewhere?

I take it that your way of "elevating the discussion away from partisan BS" is to simply ignore/refuse to address the question while similtaneously exagerating its personal importance to the person asking it, and downplaying the actual behavior being questioned?

The Democrats are making the insurance companies out to be the central villian in the health care debate. If they in fact are, then present the facts. If they need to "spin a story" by misrepresenting facts, then they deserved to be called upon it. I will take your response above as an indirect, though possibly unintentional acknowledgement of one of the reasons *why* many people may be skeptical of the Democrats' plans: because the core leaders are "spin[ing] a story to support their agenda.

Paralithodes says

I take it that your way of “elevating the discussion away from partisan BS” is to simply ignore/refuse to address the question while similtaneously exagerating its personal importance to the person asking it, and downplaying the actual behavior being questioned?

No--my way was to try to rise above the Democrat/Republican or liberal/conservative nonsense. That's why I ignored your obviously partisan question. We can argue about whether insurance companies make lots of money or lots and lots and lots of money, but what's the point? I don't think I'm downplaying anything--I think I'm playing it about right. Spinning foreign intelligence to show that Iraq has WMDs-now that's a story. Highlighting an insurance companies profit statement without pointing out the fine print? That doesn't make my blood boil.
Paralithodes says

The Democrats are making the insurance companies out to be the central villian in the health care debate. If they in fact are, then present the facts. If they need to “spin a story” by misrepresenting facts, then they deserved to be called upon it. I will take your response above as an indirect, though possibly unintentional acknowledgement of one of the reasons *why* many people may be skeptical of the Democrats’ plans: because the core leaders are “spin[ing] a story to support their agenda.

I don't accept your premise. And don't take my statement as an acknoledgement of any such thing, please. IMO, if people are skeptical of the Democrats' plans, it's because of the misinformation being broadcast by the various groups that are so happy with the status quo. (Now why do you think that might be?)
Finally--are you going to respond to my questions? I've answered yours. If not--you shouldn't post here anymore. You're just a shill.

There were some posts a week ago about "medical vacations" where U.S. citizens go to Costa Rica for low cost, good quality medical procedures and surgeries. It turns out there is socialized health care there. The head honcho, chief medical director of the country was asked why the costs were so much lower in Costa Rica compared to America and his response was two things: "Lower salaries and virtually no medical malpractice lawsuits".

Honest Abe says

There were some posts a week ago about “medical vacations” where U.S. citizens go to Costa Rica for low cost, good quality medical procedures and surgeries. It turns out there is socialized health care there. The head honcho, chief medical director of the country was asked why the costs were so much lower in Costa Rica compared to America and his response was two things: “Lower salaries and virtually no medical malpractice lawsuits”.

Do you have a link to that?

if people are skeptical of the Democrats’ plans, it’s because of the misinformation being broadcast by the various groups that are so happy with the status quo.

Roger that! The misinformation is all from those against the Democrats plans.... Misrepresenting a specific insurance company's profits to make them out to look like they are fleecing the people and further anger people about the insurance companies is not really "misinformation." It was simply not pointing out the "fine print" though that "fine print" completely invalidates the point of using a specific company as a specific example. Therefore, doing such things as this should not give anyone any valid skepticism of the Democrats' claims about the problems and the roots of the problems: You deny my premise and point simply because it is politically expedient for you to do so, and I am the shill?...... LOL!!!!!!!!

1. Do you agree that the US outspends every other country in the world in health care costs/person?

Yes.

2. Do you agree that the US is somewhere in the middle of health care rankings? Based on outcomes?

I can neither agree nor disagree because I have not done enough research. I can only go by general articles and headlines stating as such. But without understanding how these specific rankings were created - how the individual components were measured to ensure reliability across countries, and how the actual weightings were developed, I cannot answer. The former is more technical, the latter can be very subjective and easily manipulated whether intentionally or not. I have read conflicting information regarding these rankings from various sources and of course the political leanings of each source come to different conclusions. But more importantly, I have some background in research methods and statistics and generally do not trust the competence of anyone in the media - on either side - to report on the validity of such rankings. So again, I neither agree nor disagree simply because I have not researched it enough and will not rely on headlines or "talking points." There are likely areas where we excel and areas where we fail in comparison.

3. Do you think that there is some reason why the US couldn’t adopt the best of other countries’ plans?

No. Now the argument is... which components are the best of other countries plans, and how do we get such components to play nicely together without further blowing up the system? As you have already said, you don't believe the current plans really address the fundamental problems.

Paralithodes says

No. Now the argument is… which components are the best of other countries plans, and how do we get such components to play nicely together without further blowing up the system? As you have already said, you don’t believe the current plans really address the fundamental problems.

Yes, I agree. I like the idea that someone else posted here--a commission. Similar to the way we determine which military bases to close. Has to be above politics to allow everyone to pass the buck when the results are announced.

Tatu - I'll try to find the link. It was an out of context post about Rush Limbaugh saying he would "leave the country" if health care passed in America. What he really said was he would leave the country to seek major medical care elsewhere, (Costa Rica), if HC passed in America. I'll do what I can to find it. Abe

Nomograph says

You suddenly became strangely silent on the issue.

Weird, do you even read three posts back in the threads you post in????? You're pretty sloppy, even for someone who seems to have to resort to name calling....

Nomograph says

Not sure what you’re talking about, but Wellpoint’s profits are not relevant.

So then why did the Administration use Wellpoint as a specific example in the first place? Not sure what I'm talking about? Maybe you should read the threads in which you post....