patrick.net

thomas.wong1986 says

Was Yahoo ever really worth 300 per share or Ariba $600 per share ? Wealth wasnt created . .

I disagree with this. For one, Yahoo at $300 didn't take money from anyone (who didn't buy at the inflated prices). Total market cap is like total assessed value of all land in the US, it's irrelevant because there's no buy-side large enough to make a market to liquidate the stock at this peak valuation.

And 2), if the world survives to 2100 it's going to be built on high tech that we probably can't even dream of today. Machine translation between foreign languages that works. Virtual meetings just as good as being in the same room. Robots making robots and computers programming themselves. People buying WoW pods to play WoW for months at a time w/o a break. Bandwidth in the EM too cheap to meter. OK, LOL on the last one.

To coin some new terms now, let's call "Direct Wealth" that which satisfies human needs and wants. Indirect wealth would be that which is involved in the creation of direct wealth (and is otherwise known as Capital). Compared to 1980, we've come a long way in developing wealth-creating technologies, and I don't see why 2040 is going to be any less advanced from now as we now are from the beginning of the PC revolution 30 years ago. Computers, networks, and software will be improving our lives more and making us more productive in actual direct wealth-creation and preservation, too.

Now, granted, compared to 2000 things aren't all that advanced in 2010, though perhaps comparing the 4G iPhone coming out RSN compared to the Nokias of ten years ago may be instructive.

We've got the W3C and WHATG, and all the major browser makers pretty much pulling together a nifty unified web platform with HTML5, that's going to facilitate further development of cheaper, faster, and better web software. Google didn't have a public footprint 10 years ago. . . I expect great things out of it, since they're pretty big on collecting the smartest people they can find who want to work for them and putting them on interesting tech problems.

Nomo, I think you have something there.

I know too many unemployed techies who are "holding out" so that they can get paid "what they're worth." They don't seem to understand that they are worth only what the economy is willing to pay for their services. Pride is a nasty task master.

What's wrong with starting over? I've done it a couple of times in my life. I've had at least 4 career paths in my life. I think I'm on my last one, but who knows? Something may change.

The best workers these days are workers who can be flexible and learn something new and use it to their advantage. Those who are stuck in one industry are "one shot" workers. Today's economy requires the ability to retrain, retool, and get more education to allow for the greatest flexibility. I almost feel sorry for the techies that I know who can't find their $150k dream jobs anymore. Almost...

Oh and the DOW fell over 300 points today. Double dip?

http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/20/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm

Troy says

To coin some new terms now, let’s call “Direct Wealth” that which satisfies human needs and wants. Indirect wealth would be that which is involved in the creation of direct wealth (and is otherwise known as Capital). Compared to 1980, we’ve come a long way in developing wealth-creating technologies, and I don’t see why 2040 is going to be any less advanced from now as we now are from the beginning of the PC revolution 30 years ago. Computers, networks, and software will be improving our lives more and making us more productive in actual direct wealth-creation and preservation, too.

The needs of corporate buyers/users and increases in global productivity have been filled from 1980 to 2000 . As many in the know will say.. "what can be done has been done!". We are very well into the mature phase of this industry. Every industry has this, ship building, rail roads, etc etc. This is done! The tech for todays consumers are mear toys to play with. They are the end products, of the technology and communication boom for the past 20-30 years. You wanna create a slick web page filled with adversting or spanky DVR, MP3 player for your entertainment consumption.. go right at it, the past 20-30 has made it possible, but they are not the miracle products I have been fortunate to have seen.

Our greatest needs today and hopefully will be fullfilled by 2040 is getting our nation off mid-eastern oil consumption. Make something that will power a car long enough or provide juice to power a city at economical costs, then your talking about creating wealth for yourself and others. That used to be SV back in the day, but no more.

Energy is our greatest need today. The future as I see it is nuclear power.

Troy, specifically in the long-term future I see nuclear power not as fission but as fusion. We can't keep building fission reactors that create isotopes that are radioactive and highly toxic that last for thousands of years that we must store somewhere without consequence. If you think that the current disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is bad, it pales in comparison to a true nuclear accident whether at the reactor or at a waste storage site.

We have to find a way of producing energy that doesn't kill us in the process. Our addiction to fossil fuels is going to destroy the ecosystem of the Gulf, make no mistake about it. And now that the oil slick has gotten into the Gulf Stream it may end up affecting communities on the East Coast. So we may see the destruction reach beyond the Gulf.

If we go nuclear, we must make absolutely certain that it's 100% safe. Otherwise we are going to be fooling ourselves again like we do with fossil fuels currently.

Specifically it looks like cold fusion is our best bet:

http://www.coldfusionenergyscience.com/

simchaland says

Troy, specifically in the long-term future I see nuclear power not as fission but as fusion. We can’t keep building fission reactors that create isotopes that are radioactive and highly toxic that last for thousands of years that we must store somewhere without consequence. If you think that the current disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is bad, it pales in comparison to a true nuclear accident whether at the reactor or at a waste storage site.

Nope, the spent rods are recycled and radioactive isotopes are removed, lasting a few years and are harmless, not thousands of years. This isnt the reactors of the past. We come a long way and need to go further. I would skip the cold fusion nonsense and get busy with it. The world is already doing this, why are we falling behind?

Yeah, right. Cold fusion isn't nonsense. It's reality. It's energy that will last for billions of years that doesn't pollute at all. And there's no danger of nuclear meltdown.

And there is no process to recycle waste completely. There is ALWAYS waste from fusion no matter how much you recycle. And it is highly toxic for THOUSANDS of years.

We should stop the nonsense of producing energy in ways that will kill us. Our use of fossil fuels is slowly (or not so slowly) killing us.

Fission reactors have a high potential for killing us through failure and the spent fuel and waste products will continue to pose a hazard for thousands of years. Fission is a wonderful way to generate energy until cold fusion is finally developed though. It's got a better safety record than fossil fuels for now.

And we can keep making them even more safe until we get cold fusion:

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/safeNuclearDecommissioning.php

Cold fusion is the energy of the future. It's safe and completely clean. And the energy produced is practically limitless.

I think the "silence" of some contributors to this forum, who are NOT commenting on this speaks volumes.

Junkmail,

What message do you think the "silence" of the forum means? I'm curious.

Just another buying opportunity ultimately.
Take your EWT and toss it ...Trend Lines and Fibonacci #'s are all you need.
Trends down so sell rallies it's really that simple but not that easy.

Hey V ! I told you guys Obama was Chicago's finest :))

I think this bodes poorly for house prices here in Ashland, Oregon. With fear, there will be less liquidity in housing, I'm afraid.

Ashland cannot maintain the house prices, based on "average wages" or "rental return." I am thinking about selling my house, before things drop any further. Ashland, and maybe "coastal US" has always had higher prices, maybe since the 60's than compared to the midwest. Why and how is it sustained over time?

The place is hopping now, apparently bouyed by fed stimulus, retirement $, and "leaving the city" monetary lubrications. Where will this Ashland market be in a year?

I am thinking about selling out my house before I lose another 100k from the top of the market, here in Ashland. Any suggestions or ideas on more research for Ashland housing market prices out there? Looking at the price curves up and down in last ten years, I believe housing here parallels the LA or San Fran graphs.

simchaland says

Yeah, right. Cold fusion isn’t nonsense. It’s reality. It’s energy that will last for billions of years that doesn’t pollute at all. And there’s no danger of nuclear meltdown.

Kirk: Thank you Mr. Scott, please check the Delitium chamber and the Matter-Anti Matter converter,
and throw in a quart of oil. I will be pushing warp 9 on our next mission out to the Romulan neutral zone.

junkmail says

I think the “silence” of some contributors to this forum, who are NOT commenting on this speaks volumes.

Comment about what? This thread is all over the map.

Vicente, yeah, this thread has become like a drunken sailor, really. I meant it more to be a discussion of the evolving ups and downs of the stock market but it seems to have turned into a potpourri. I've kind of contributed to the diffuse nature of the discourse on here. Oops. Oh well...

If we go nuclear, we must make absolutely certain that it’s 100% safe. Otherwise we are going to be fooling ourselves again like we do with fossil fuels currently.

Sadly, the inextricable human fallibility factor means that notions of 100% safety are a pipe dream. If you can take man out of the equation, however...

Specifically it looks like cold fusion is our best bet:

Cold fusion/isomer triggering remains fringe science at best, pathological science at worst. Just for starters, it completely violates known laws of physics. Both the DOE and DOD have wasted millions of dollars farting around with this already.

You know what's disappointing about this oil spill?

Lacks a soused captain we can pin it all on.

@simchaland
thomas is correct with nuclear reactors. The "dirty: ones that were built in the US, do create a mess, but most of the world doesn't use these. The way the new reactors work is that as they create more energy the spin faster, when they get up to a certain speed centrifugal forces pull apart the reaction, so it can't run wild. Fusion has been worked on for so long, with no usable output, we have at least 20 more years of work to go before we can get anything net positive out of them. Nuclear is a good way to go, but in reality we need multiple sources. Most nuclear waste from modern nuclear reactors isn't very dirty AND there isn't much of it. Old US nuclear reactors create masses of VERY long living materials. Putting nuclear waste in a mountain for even thousands of years is fine. Even if there is a massive earthquake and it all ends up topside, nothing will happen, it'll be a mess but we'll clean it up. It isn't going to spontaneously create a nuclear explosion.

The answer isn't one source, nuclear. It's multiple sources, wind, solar, tidal, hydro electric. We have such insane energy needs now that we have to grow out several avenues. Secondly, we need to learn to use energy better. Better insulation, not running computers all night long, better data centers (they're like 5% of power now?!), and lighter smaller cars.

Until we can SEE how much energy we're wasting, we aren't likely to do much though as consumers. Increasing prices + smart monitors will help here I think. People will begin to actually understand how much little things effect their energy consumption.

@thomas
Computers are pretty much mature now, I agree there. We're just starting to really integrate computers into our lives. Computers will push the next big thing, biotech. Now that the computers are fast enough, and our manufacturing skills for great scientific equipment have really expanded, we can expect to see some fantastic advancements in this area. Just look at the genome projects, how slow they were previously and how quickly they can process the data now.

thunderlips11 says

A GREAT week for Bears

Well, we ended the week on a bullish note. It's Dow up 125.38.

I don't enjoy being a bear on the stock market. I do like living in reality though. And I enjoy being a bear in other aspects of my life. ;-)

Vicente says

You know what’s disappointing about this oil spill?
Lacks a soused captain we can pin it all on.

Maybe someone can create one - blame the whole thing on an alcohol-infused poker game in the control room. "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." (from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance)

Biotech is a dead end. The difference between the two industries are too vast.
HT enjoyed fat corporate budgets which you will not find in biotech. They dont have the beauracracy and long periods of R&D,
which only drains working capital. You can make a wonder drug to cure all Aids, but who will buy/pay for it.

thunderlips11 says

1. Hiring IT guys to stock shelves is a mark of an inefficient, wasteful economy, not an efficient, vibrant one.

Check

2. There are nowhere near enough jobs, even if people lowered their standards.

Check

2b. All that would happen is that the unskilled would be totally S-out-of-luck as they would be forced to compete with college grads for gas-pumping positions.

Check - Yes, I see this happening right now. I work with 18-25 year olds. Almost none of them can find jobs, not even entry level burger flipping ones. Why? Because they are taken already by state workers on furlough and former "middle managers" and other paper pushers and IT people.

2c. And Wages would take a monster nose-dive. Employers would be able to force cuts of 10% and beyond to petrified employees, resulting in a fresh, fear-driven wave of consumer spending cutbacks.

Hold onto your hats. This is what the aristocracy has in store for us next if workers don't unite.

3. But Many employers will not consider people who they believe are ‘overqualified’, as the article below illustrates:

Yes, isn't that ironic?

“Being a college graduate with work experience won’t get you a job at the Dog Kennel” - 260 people, including experienced teachers, middle aged accountants, etc apply for one part time $8.55/hr dog poop-cleaning job in Washington State:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2011421840_danny24.html

Sad, isn't it? And this is happening more and more. Does anyone see a recovery happening right now?

This is all Bush's fault.

thomas.wong1986 says

Wanna buy a Netbook for $200 dollars!

You're conflating technology improvements with inflation. That is incorrect. The FED does the same thing, they call it Hedonics though. You should bear in mind that netbook won't be very good compared to a decent (ie. ~$700) notebook...

Prices on many things like food and housing have been heavily subsidized over the years. Its been obvious with housing, but less so with food, but it has happened all the same. Corn, rice, meat, and soybeans have all been heavily subsidized over the years. They've also gone to great lengths at the same time to reduce costs by cutting quality. You can search Youtube for videos of how most farm raised pigs, cattle, and chicken are treated if you don't believe me, its pretty ugly.

You guys are all forgetting inflation is easy to do. If gov wants to they'll just flat out mail people the money or do a tax credit. Both have been used several times pver the last few years, by Bush and Obama. I still doubt that they're going to raise wages though. If anything I'm seeing wages decrease right now. High inflation would be absolutely brutal right now on the middle class and poor Americans, but I think that is what we're going to get instead of deflation since the gov. hates it so much and views inflation as the lesser evil.

tts says

You’re conflating technology improvements with inflation.

No! what im talking about is market competition. Something thats been going on since 1985.
You will not find many local tech companies that can sustain market pricing "power". Once your
competition drops their prices, all other players follow. We seen this multiple times from Semis,
Semi Equipment, SW, Servers and the rest. That is why we seen prices drop from $5000 to less than $500. When vendors negotiate prices it usually time and time again see 20-30% discounts. Its difficult to establish product prices in tech companies. That is why Silicon Valley and many tech players in other regions are deflationary.

Sorry but that is still all incorrect. All the competition in the world wouldn't produce a $200 net top in 1990, 1995, or 2000, much less 2005.

The tech had to exist first, then came the competition. There are only a handful of companies that produce all the components that goes into PC's you know.

Intel/AMD make the CPUs, Intel/AMD/nV make the GPU's, Crucial/Micron/Hynix/Samsung and a few others make the RAM, WD/Seagate/Hitachi and a few others make the hard drives, ASUS/DFI/Foxconn/MSI make the motherboards, etc. That "competition" you're talking about is more like an oligopoly. RAM manufacturers in particular are notorious for working together to fix prices.

The tech itself has nothing to do with inflation or deflation, if you think it does you don't know the meaning of those words.

The Dow Jones up 285 points today. The roller~coaster continues.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Stocks-jump-after-China-shows-apf-4047743096.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

tts says

The tech itself has nothing to do with inflation or deflation, if you think it does you don’t know the meaning of those words.

While I disagree with most of what Thomas is saying, deflation doesn't care if it's because of technological improvements, lower margins, or lower raw materials. Deflation is simply defined as falling prices.

Yes, falling prices of goods is indeed deflation in a monetary sense.

But you'd be making an apples to oranges comparison if you take new tech and compare it to old tech and say "DEFLATION".

Why? Because you're not comparing the same products!! A PIII made today would be very different from one made back in 1999 for instance even though technically they're the same processor. The reason? It'd be made on a modern 32nm process instead of a ancient 250nm process which would have a HUGE effect on die size, power, and clock speed as well as yield (how many CPU's you get per wafer) which is what would allow you to drop the prices on them.

In short the price drop had nothing to do with _any_ monetary event, which is what thomas is talking about when he says deflation, it was due to improvements in manufacturing capability. If you follow the business you know that costs have actually gone UP, massively so in fact.

10 years ago there used to be many more private fabs for instance. These days rising costs have made new fabs so expensive that there are really only a few big players left who can afford to shell out the +$3 billion or more required to build a new one. There'll be even fewer standalone fabs in the future since its expected to cost more than _$6 billion_ to build one within 10 years. That is why we're starting to see more alliances and mergers happen now (ie. GF and UMC, IBM/Sony/Toshiba, even Intel and Micron for flash) because all the big players know they can't afford to go it alone anymore.

The R&D + fab manufacturing costs are just too huge.

tts,

your explaination pretty much summarized why I don't invest in semi's. Make 1B, but spend 2B in capital to sustain the business. Great for the executive's who draws their paycheck and bonus' year after year but a terrible investment as a common stockholder.

tts says

But you’d be making an apples to oranges comparison if you take new tech and compare it to old tech and say “DEFLATION”.
Why? Because you’re not comparing the same products!! A PIII made today would be very different from one made back in 1999 for instance even though technically they’re the same processor. The reason? It’d be made on a modern 32nm process instead of a ancient 250nm process which would have a HUGE effect on die size, power, and clock speed as well as yield (how many CPU’s you get per wafer) which is what would allow you to drop the prices on them

Yes, but if anything that would signal more deflation. You're getting a better product for less money than an inferior product of the past. So apples to apples, prices have really fallen even more than is indicated.

That's why productivity gains usually rein in inflation...

There should be some kind of "posting limit" for threads IMO, so ancient threads with lots of posts and twists and turns can die a natural death.

Vicente says

There should be some kind of “posting limit” for threads IMO, so ancient threads with lots of posts and twists and turns can die a natural death.

Thread isn't that old, a few weeks?

It has gone somewhat OT though, but that always happens no matter what you do.

tatupu70 says

Yes, but if anything that would signal more deflation. You’re getting a better product for less money than an inferior product of the past. So apples to apples, prices have really fallen even more than is indicated.
That’s why productivity gains usually rein in inflation…

Other way around. Cost per die would go down but Intel would just sell them for the same or slightly less than what they did before, so their profits would go up. Why else do you think they made so much money in the 90's but started having their profit margins shaved in the 2000's?

tts says

Why? Because you’re not comparing the same products!! A PIII made today would be very different from one made back in 1999 for instance even though technically they’re the same processor. The reason? It’d be made on a modern 32nm process instead of a ancient 250nm process which would have a HUGE effect on die size, power, and clock speed as well as yield (how many CPU’s you get per wafer) which is what would allow you to drop the prices on them.
In short the price drop had nothing to do with _any_ monetary event, which is what thomas is talking about when he says deflation, it was due to improvements in manufacturing capability. If you follow the business you know that costs have actually gone UP, massively so in fact.

If you look back, you will find no one wanted to see price declines for tech goods like Semis and storage drives. Infact like AMD, which had a 'no lay off policy' and geared its spending as a $2B in revenue company was ill prepared for the price drops in the 80s which occured as the Japanese cut their prices in the market places. They had pretty massive layoffs back then in the late 80s early 90s. Clock speed and other factors did not influence prices. You see this even today. When I worked at a Semi Equipment company, Intel always wanted to see 20% off the list price for our products, in reaction to AMD price cuts. And this effected many others in the supply chain. In todays B2B market place these chances between vendors are very swift and unseen.

It was never forseen and there was no master plan based on new tech introduction which created these price drops in our industries. Like AMD/Intel these players are oftern at each other throats competing for market share.

I hear recently that Apple may be using cheaper AMD chips instead of Intel.

Apple in advance discussions to adopt AMD chips
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/16/apple_in_advanced_discussions_to_adopt_amd_chips.html

How will Intel react ? cut their prices.. and the cycle continues.

tts says

Why else do you think they made so much money in the 90’s but started having their profit margins shaved in the 2000’s?

They had their margins shaved long before that. Intel cut 30% of its force back in early 90s and exited many business lines including the profitable DRAM business, shipped many jobs to Oregon from Santa Clara. At the same time AMD copied and introduced a non-royalty Intel 386 processor, AM376, sparking price wars with Intel lasting even today. NEC introduced a similar product the NEC V20 and V30, which Intel blocked for "fear" of losing to the CPU business as they lost in the DRAM business. Others like Cyrix, National, and TI also had similar products like the 486DX. Intels questionable business tactic were used to drive competition out of the market place. If anything, Intel managed to survive many treats in the market place, using of all things legal and blut tactics to survive. That is why they are under investigation by both Japanes and European goverments. Their lawyers have always been busy!

thomas.wong1986 says

If you look back, you will find no one wanted to see price declines for tech goods like Semis and storage drives.

Yea, I remember when Intel was laughing at sub $1K machines and said they'd never work.

At the time and for the money those AMD K5/6's and Cyrix 6x86's were decent chips. I actually had a MediaGX system for a while too...

thomas.wong1986 says

Infact like AMD, which had a ‘no lay off policy’ and geared its spending as a $2B in revenue company was ill prepared for the price drops in the 80s which occured as the Japanese cut their prices in the market places. They had pretty massive layoffs back then in the late 80s early 90s. Clock speed and other factors did not influence prices.

AFAIK the Japanese semi's weren't competing with Intel/AMD for CPU's which were heavily reliant on their in house processes so they couldn't be made anywhere else anyways, maybe flash is what you mean? I didn't think that was all that big for Intel up until the last few years, I know AMD spun theirs (flash production) off into some deal with Fujitsu that went bad several years ago.

AMD has had lots of problems over the years with missed launches and process delays though, tough business to be in though particularly when you have to compete with Intel.

thomas.wong1986 says

It was never forseen and there was no master plan based on new tech introduction which created these price drops in our industries. Like AMD/Intel these players are oftern at each other throats competing for market share.

They may not have _planned_ to cut costs with new tech, but that was the way it worked out. Of course they'd want to keep prices high, they're in business to make money after all!

thomas.wong1986 says

I hear recently that Apple may be using cheaper AMD chips instead of Intel.
How will Intel react ? cut their prices.. and the cycle continues.

AFAIK the problem isn't Intel's prices/performance on their CPU's or even their platform, but that AMD is supposed to have a MUCH better GPU built into their mobile chips around late this year or early next.

If thats true it almost won't matter how low Intel goes, we'll have to see....

thomas.wong1986 says

They had their margins shaved long before that.

What?! They were making mad cash in the 90's, their profits were HUGE. AMD/Cyrix/Nat. Semi/TI couldn't compete on performance which was a very big deal for CPU's all the way up until recently, so people regularly spent $200+ on Intel chips. Now a 2Ghz+ dual core chip is cheap and more than enough for most people, you can pick one up for $50. SSD's or doubling the RAM have more benefit for most people than a faster CPU....

thomas.wong1986 says

Intel cut 30% of its force back in early 90s and exited many business lines including the profitable DRAM business, shipped many jobs to Oregon from Santa Clara.

Yea they canned a lot of that stuff because at the time they saw the writing on the wall and got out while the getting was good. The DRAM manufacturers have spent nearly all that time since then squeaking by on tiny margins.

thomas.wong1986 says

Intels questionable business tactic were used to drive competition out of the market place.

Yea, but that only worked because they were so HUGE. Intel pretty much was the x86 CPU (read: PC) market. If you pissed them off all the way up until the late 90's you were screwed (to some extent this is still true today, they can't get away with as much as they used to though). I remember the mobo manufacturer's wouldn't sell their stuff for AMD CPU's with their own branding, they'd sell it as white box no label goods!! That doesn't happen anymore though....

simchaland says

2b. All that would happen is that the unskilled would be totally S-out-of-luck as they would be forced to compete with college grads for gas-pumping positions.
Check - Yes, I see this happening right now. I work with 18-25 year olds. Almost none of them can find jobs, not even entry level burger flipping ones. Why? Because they are taken already by state workers on furlough and former “middle managers” and other paper pushers and IT people.

There is a guy who works in the front office at Goodyear tire retail In Los Gatos. He was a Engineer with Seagate for 25 years. There was another guy I meet at Macys, he was a former Cost Accounting Manager for a Tech company I also worked for many years ago. He is currently a tailor. Frankly, their vast experience and talent is being wasted. Its a shame.

This past month i found out that a friend of mine, along with many others will be losing his job. His employers which was slated to go IPO couldnt...not because they had growing sales or being profitable, but they couldnt really behave and develope sound financial statements as a public entity. Real reason, the Accounting was mismanaged by a bunch of inexperienced ivy-league MBA morons. It just wasnt going to happen after many bad misteps.
Good engineering and good salespeople wasnt enough!

tts says

AFAIK the Japanese semi’s weren’t competing with Intel/AMD for CPU’s which were heavily reliant on their in house processes so they couldn’t be made anywhere else anyways, maybe flash is what you mean?

NEC V20 and V30...introduced on Hitachi Laptops and banned from importing by Intel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20
http://www.cpu-collection.de/?l0=co&l1=NEC&l2=V20

The NEC V20 is a 16-bit CMOS microprocessor with 8-bit external data bus, object-code and pin-compatible with the Intel 8088. The V20 runs at the same speed as the 8088, but it's slightly faster due to internal improvements - dual internal 16-bit data bus, faster effective address calculation, better loop counter/shift register implementation, and some others. The V20 includes Intel 8080 emulation mode, in which it can execute all of the 8080 instructions. Native NEC V20 instruction set includes all 8086/8088 instructions, new instructions from the 80186/80188 microprocessor, and instructions unique to V20 - bit processing, packed BCD instructions and special instructions for switching the processor to 8080 emulation mode and back.

The V20 is almost the same as the NEC V30 with the exception that the V30 has a 16-bit data bus

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1985/07/08/66112/index.htm

NOW, THE JAPANESE CHALLENGE IN MICROPROCESSORS Japan's largest chipmaker is moving fast to break the U.S. hammerlock on computers-on-a-chip and open the way for Japanese domination of the entire computer industry. The legal and commercial barriers loom large, but they may be breachable.

Wow never heard of one or saw of those things. I had a Tandy "laptop" from that era too.

Did NEC not license Intel's ISA or what?

e: ahaha that fortune article is hilarious to read today. Its an interesting piece of history but it looks to me NEC screwed the pooch instead of Intel using money/political connections to get their chips arbitrarily banned.

TTS - that is why high home prices are very risky proposition around here. Things can get well out of control and change the economic dynamics in the valley in a snap. Seen way too much of that. It can be Semis, SW, PC components, Internet... its all the same when you dig deeper into the business side of our industries. I do not want to see any employers leave due to high costs, mainly from housing. Those changes will be permenant. We should have had some of our leaders in industry early on make a more public and local comments on the implications of high home costs. But its not in their nature to be dealing with these issues in public area, but it does effect us all.

tts says

Wow never heard of one or saw of those things. I had a Tandy “laptop” from that era too.

Ever see Gary Kindalls CPM-OS... buts thats another story regarding Microsoft...