patrick.net

RayAmerica says

Why is it you people never advocate the reduction of spending and size of the Federal Government?

When you say "you people", I'm assuming you mean those that you call LIBS. And I'm pretty sure that all of those people do advocate a large reduction in military spending.

Why is it you never can remember that?

tatupu70 says

I’m assuming you mean those that you call LIBS. And I’m pretty sure that all of those people do advocate a large reduction in military spending.

I didn't realize that only "military spending" needed to be cut. Amazing that nothing else in the Federal Government is wasteful. Simply amazing.

Nomo .... so what you are saying is that there isn't any room to reduce Federal Government spending outside of the military? How about the interest on the debt? How much taxpayer money does that waste?

RayAmerica says

I didn’t realize that only “military spending” needed to be cut. Amazing that nothing else in the Federal Government is wastful. Simply amazing.

Well, usually it's best to start where you can get the biggest bang for your buck. Since the military is somewhere between 30-50+% of the budget, let's begin there. As Troy has said many times, you'd be cutting a lot of well paying jobs so it will be painful. Probably best to do it slowly over a relatively long time period or to wait until the economy was healthier and could absorb the newly unemployed.

Nomograph says

You start with the biggest source of waste. Do you think we’ll pay down the national debt by eliminating Head Start?

Any thoughts on the hundreds of billions spent on foreign aid every year?

Is money finite or infinite? If the former, the more concentrated the wealth is at the top, the less concentrated it is at the bottom as the pie can only be cut in so many different ways and the governemt shoul ensure that the wealth doesn't become too concentrated at the top at the expense of the masses who have to scramble for the few finite dollars. If the latter, then wealth disparity is nothing to worry about and everyone has the potential to become wealthy with varying levels of sucess depending upon their wealth inheritence, luck, intelligence, dilligence, business savy, power, connections and other personal characteristics.

RayAmerica says

Nomograph says

You start with the biggest source of waste. Do you think we’ll pay down the national debt by eliminating Head Start?

Any thoughts on the hundreds of billions spent on foreign aid every year?

Well--from what I can tell--it looks like the foreign aid budget is ~$40 billion. Not sure where you get hundreds of billions. And a decent chunk of that is financing for military weapons. Israel is the largest recipient too. You want to cut off Israel and military financing? If you say so...

Any thoughts of the $1 trillion + spent on the war in Iraq?

BobbyS says

Any thoughts of the $1 trillion + spent on the war in Iraq?

You mean the war we fought for Israel? Kind of like foreign aid too don't you think?

tatupu70 says

You want to cut off Israel and military financing? If you say so…

It will never happen. The politicians are too afraid of AIPAC. By the way, I'm currently reading a great book on the Neocons, Israel's lobby, etc. called "The Transparent Cabal." Excellent read. Very well documented as to how the Neocons hi-jacked our foreign policy and maneuvered us into these disasterous wars.

Nomograph says

Military spending is probably the most wasteful. Even welfare and food stamps provides a better return by keeping liquor stores and swap meets busy.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/department-of-defense-unveils-83-million-thing-tha,18136/

The problem with socialism is that people don't know what it actually is.

Taxes aren't socialism. Taxes are the alternative to socialism.

tatupu70 says

Well–from what I can tell–it looks like the foreign aid budget is ~$40 billion.

Cutting out that 40 billion for foreign aid stuff should make a big dent in the 1 trillion plus deficit. How about head start? That's another 7 billion. Lord how the money rolls in.

Cut this and that, it will eventially end up being funneled and concentrated to the top.

Kevin says

Taxes are the alternative to socialism.

That's a good one, here's a few more for our loyal party members

Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery

AdHominem says

Kevin says
Taxes are the alternative to socialism.
That’s a good one, here’s a few more for our loyal party members
Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery

Really? So, the USSR had high taxes then? And Cuba?

Kevin says

How do you cut the debt? If you don’t make major cuts to at least two of the big three, you can’t cut the deficit. If you can’t cut the deficit you can’t pay down the debt.
Remaining options are inflation (still requires balancing the budget over the long term), taxes, government ownership of industries, or defaulting.
Pick one, see how well it goes.

I just happened to notice that you didn't mention cutting government size and spending as a means to cutting the debt. LOL

RayAmerica says

Kevin says

How do you cut the debt? If you don’t make major cuts to at least two of the big three, you can’t cut the deficit. If you can’t cut the deficit you can’t pay down the debt.

Remaining options are inflation (still requires balancing the budget over the long term), taxes, government ownership of industries, or defaulting.

Pick one, see how well it goes.

I just happened to notice that you didn’t mention cutting government size and spending as a means to cutting the debt. LOL

Other than being the very first fucking thing that I suggested, you're right.

I mean, really. Its not that hard to read.

Really, when it comes down to it the only viable way to cut the deficit through spending cuts is to cut military spending by about two thirds. That means not only ending the wars, it means closing bases and ending the construction of expensive weapons.

The last time that we had a surplus, we had higher tax rates and no big war to pay for.

Now we have two wars, lower tax rates, and a recession that is driving tax revenue even lower.

You could steal from social security and medicare to pay for the military of course. We've been doing that for the last few decades after all. Unfortunately, most people actually like ss and medicare, so good luck trying to cut those.

Its fun to be able to be an armchair budgeter though, isn't it? After all, its so much easier to constantly claim that there are huge buckets of spending that we can reign in and bitch that it isn't being done than it is to actually face reality.

At least the europeans recognized that they needed to pay for their spending, and used either taxes or government ownership of industry (you know, real socialism) to pay for it.

Well, except for greece and spain. They're doing exactly what were doing and pretending like saving money on national parks is going to fix their problems.

The best solution would be to shapeshift into a cockroach. You can be certain your ancestors will live long and prosperous lives for many years to come.

Left leaning democrats, liberals, progressives and socialists put government first and foremost. Apparently they believe government can solve all of societies real and perceived problems. What they conveniently forget is that government doesn't create wealth, it only confiscates it. In other words to provide for some, government must take (by force) from others. Ultimately people become unwilling pawns in the government's game of dominance and control. That doesn't sound like "freedom" does it? Could that be the reason so many Amreicans are so angry now?

BTW, it was recently reported that America is now less free than Britain...the country we fought to obtain our freedom from, UGH.

You idiot - wealth gets created DESPITE the government, not because of government. Excess government doesn't create prosperity...it creates poverty. Its the "middle-man" that sucks off that which is stolen from one class of American (the producers) and given to another class of
American (those who do not produce).

^ he says, writing on a computer whose miniaturized components were mostly developed with government money in the 1960s and on a network that was mostly funded with government money in the 1970s, a legal framework that was established by government in the 1980s, and using a web architecture that was initially developed with government money in the 1990s.

Government money, YOU IDIOT, government has no money of its own. The only money government has is that which it confiscates (steals under threat of force) from those who actually earn it.

With people like you no wonder America is if financial, economic, moral and educational decline.
Where did you go to school?

If the people didn't "provide it," would the government have any "money of its own?"

I find it amusing that you talk about americas decline and blame it on the government, when the countries that are growing the fastest right now are mostly still built on economies of state owned businesses.

I mean, really, there is zero evidence to support the idea that having a tiny skeleton government with no power is good for anything. The last time we had that type of government we were all farmers and there were not any airplanes, automobiles, or electricity in most homes.

And in case you haven't noticed, or can't figure it out for yourself, government attempting to provide everything to everybody is collapsing our economy. Could that be why so many people are angry and frustrated with our "public servents"?

Servant's

Honest Abe says

And in case you haven’t noticed, or can’t figure it out for yourself, government attempting to provide everything to everybody is collapsing our economy.

Our current economic situation has very little to do with what government provides. Shit, unless you're 65, disabled, or incredibly poor, our government doesn't provide much of anything except for a bunch of dead middle easterners.

Our economy is in a bad state for the same reason that all western economies are in a bad state. We don't have domestic production any more. We had two back to back bubbles (first stock market, then real estate) that hid this fact for nearly 20 years, but now we're finally seeing what it looks like.

The economy *WILL NEVER RECOVER* because there is nothing to "recover" to. 10% unemployment and seriously reduced incomes for the people who do have jobs is the new reality.

Things will get better eventually -- when America and China have GDP parity.

Could that be why so many people are angry and frustrated with our “public servents”?

Only the stupid ones.

Kevin says

The economy *WILL NEVER RECOVER* because there is nothing to “recover” to. 10% unemployment and seriously reduced incomes for the people who do have jobs is the new reality.

I agree with this, but with a caveat. As a thought experiment, what would this economy look like if all home owners had no mortgage payments and renters only had to pay the landlord for the depreciation of their rentals?

Would we still be "broke" as a nation? Or would we be able to make ends meet very easily?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty

Honest Abe says

And in case you haven’t noticed, or can’t figure it out for yourself, government attempting to provide everything to everybody is collapsing our economy.

Give me examples of "everything to everybody".

What does that even mean?

Honest Abe says

Where did you go to school?

You know, I'd like, at this point, to know a bit more about YOU, Abe Sapien.

How old are you, roughly? Where do you live? What was your occupation? and your pops? Tell me and I'll share mine back.

Apparently not many on this site understand that America is crumbling around you. Apparently you agree with the course of action our "wise" representatives have chosen. Apparently you support the notion that a debt and spending problem can be cured with more debt and more spending. Apparently you are in denial. Denial is willful and deliberate ignorance.

I know what you don't. You choose not to learn. So be it.

Every day people wake and start a new day. Babies are born. Crops are brought in. Cows milked. Ventures formed. Old hurts forgiven. New relationships start.

Consider that perhaps the sucking whirlpool of decay and blackness, exists in your mind. I had a friend I eventually eased away from, because for them everything was crumbling every day, and who wants to listen to griping every day of their lives? Not me.

Some folks in 1930's thought the world was going to hell, and would only end with the Rapture. It didn't.

Honest Abe says

So be it.

Does that mean to imply that we won't see any more posts from you? Great.

If America, the great bastion of Capitalism, is crumbling and the socialist nightmares like Canada and Norway are doing very well, well what do you conclude? That you might at the very least begin to look at some of the reasons for their stability?

Obama is not the solution, but near as I can tell your solutions are the problem. This country could benefit greatly from an open discussion about socialism...

Here's an article for you in parting:

The Dismantling of Civilized Society
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26458.htm
By David Michael Green, a professor of political science at Hofstra University in New York.

some highlights:

"In the 1980s, Ronald Reagan presented America with a set of economic lies so transparent that even a monster like George H. W. Bush called them "voodoo economics""...

"This week Republicans once again have issued a manifesto calling for slashing taxes on billionaires and cutting deficits, all at the same time. And once again they will win big electoral landslide victories in November despite that patent idiocy. Or perhaps because of it."

"On the one hand, I don't blame Americans for voting for the party that isn't the Democratic Party this fall. Obama and crew are miserable failures,"

"And second, because 'the alternative' to the Democrats are the very folks who put us in these crises to start with, and they are now explicitly devoted to making conditions even worse for ordinary Americans."

"Perhaps their lies are more plausible because they have promised to cut spending. It's just that there are two little caveats they hope you won't notice. First, that they somehow miraculously fail to specify in advance of the election what they intend to cut. ...that what they are proposing is to mathematics what a dropped object falling upward would be to physics?"

Honest Abe says

left leaning democrats, liberals, progressives and socialists put government first and foremost. Apparently they believe government can solve all of societies real and perceived problems. What they conveniently forget is that government doesn’t create wealth, it only confiscates it. In other words to provide for some, government must take (by force) from others. Ultimately people become unwilling pawns in the government’s game of dominance and control. That doesn’t sound like “freedom” does it? Could that be the reason so many Amreicans are so angry now?

I don't believe this guy is a real person. It's someone just trying to piss people off with one straw man after another. Abe has no realistic solutions, and his obsessive focus is social spending which isn't even significant unless you include social security and Medicare.

I don't think he's real because it's impossible for someone to be simultaneously so arrogant and and at the same time so stupid. All I hear is bluster, ego and ignorance.

kentm says

If America, the great bastion of Capitalism, is crumbling and the socialist nightmares like Canada and Norway are doing very well, well what do you conclude?

Now wait there a second.

Canada and the US *DO NOT* have a system that is very different. They spend money on health care, we spend it on the military. The basic, fundamental models are more or less identical. Canada pays for their spending with high taxes, and the US pays for it by borrowing it from China. Unemployment rates are similar (US is currently higher, but historically canada's is much much higher). Canada has less debt, and lower per capita GDP.

Norway is interesting, but hardly something you can model on. They have a state-owned oil monopoly that keeps unemployment low and provides lots of domestic income. You might as well compare the US with Saudi Arabia. Countries without that oil reserve, like France or Germany, have to find other means to pay the bills.

When Norway runs out of oil, they'll be in the same position as any other wealthy European country, all of which have problems easily comparable to those of the US.

marcus says

Abe has no realistic solutions, and his obsessive focus is social spending which isn’t even significant unless you include social security and Medicare.

Have you ever considered the amount of money that is spent, i.e. wasted, on the administrative end of "social spending?" The federal government is the nation's biggest employer, by far, and that doesn't even include the military. In fact, all governments in the USA (city, county, state) employ a huge "work" force that is mainly unproductive and yet receive high salaries and benefits for doing next to nothing. I think that's what Abe and other conservatives on this site complain about; the incredible size and waste that constitutes "government" in all its forms.

Years ago during my idealistic and naïve youth I worked for a consumer protection agency on the local government level. I also served several years as the supervisor of that department. I could probably write a book about the waste that I observed everywhere I looked. Since then, the number of employees has almost doubled and the salaries have sky rocketed! I am totally convinced, having observed it first hand, that there is nothing on planet earth that is more wasteful than government. Why liberals think the expansion of government is a good thing is something that continues to amaze me.

Ray, I read and re-read the last two sentences of your post which is a great summary of reality. Liberals, rather than control spending, prefer to control people.

I told you before the number of people on government payrolls hasn't 'sky-rocketed, it hasn't increased since around 1965. What has sky-rocketed is the number of 'contract' employees on gov payroll, which means PRIVATE companies, which means when you attack the government based on employment rolls you're attacking private companies, which means I have no idea WTF you're talking about other than I think you're confused.

This is actually kind of how I picture you:

> In fact, all governments in the USA
I see we've finally hit at the REAL reason the US economy is in terrible straights - its not the speculative bets and constant leveraging on non-existent financial inventions, its not the excessive military spending, its not the bubble minded build and bust mentality of companies who place short term profit over long term growth & stability, its not the accounting tricks meant to cover years of poor financial policy decisions... its the guys who work at the DMV. Brilliant.

> Waste on social spending...
It depends on what you mean by waste. Is it your aim that EVERY single facet of every single everything in gov services be a gigantic profit generating machine?

In the same vein, have you noticed the latest Republican offering for a budget? It basically comes down to this: "Let the sick and stupid idiots huddle and die in fear while the country burns around them." I'm paraphrasing. By "Sick & stupid idiots" and "them" I mean, you, me and everyone in the US who isn't in the top 5 percent. Is that your ideal?

Kevin says

Now wait there a second.

Canada and the US *DO NOT* have a system that is very different.

Everything you quoted are points that amount to VERY radical differences. Other difference include pretty radical perspectives on regulation and oversight...

Canada's taxes aren't actually all that much higher, and particularly so when you factor in such things that they get for their taxes such as Healthcare, a decent public education system.