patrick.net

Troy says

And it puzzles me why fundamentalists like you actually disagree with this.

Who said I was a fundamentalist? Not me I assure you. I guess you think anyone that isn't an atheist is a fundamentalist perhaps? I have more problems with fundamentalists than I would ever have with someone like you. At least you are (most of the time if not the majority) reasonable.

Troy says

The way I see it, your Creator — these days at least — is big on Free Will — making the choice to believe in It require Faith and not mere logical deduction.

Precisely!

Troy says

Like I said, If you want to believe your God zapped a mud puddle I don’t have any particular problem with that assertion, since as you say science can’t go back that far.

Why is it always a zap and a mud puddle - did you see that same reel-to-reel movie that I watched in grade school too referencing the "primordial soup"?

Troy says

But don’t be surprised while your playing this intellectually dishonest little game to find that we eventually do.

I'd find it fascinating if we found life elsewhere. We probably will eventually - if we don't screw ourselves out of existence beforehand. I don't see where I'm being dishonest though - in your view irrational, perhaps, but dishonest?

Troy says

The bottom line is you have to agree that your Creator has given us rational people ABSOLUTELY NO hint that life arose and developed here by anything other than absolutely random happenstance

IF the only way to think about God was as a "being" then I might be an atheist. But from my point of view, I'm happy to just enjoy the mystery. I like being open to the possibility that there are aspects of the universe and life that are so far beyond my comprehension that it would be foolish to commit to an absolute nonbelief. Call it some kind of universal intelligence, or maybe the sum total of all consciousness exerting some influence on the physical world. The definition doesn't have to be the old man in the clouds. In my view, by definition this is beyond description or definition, if it exists.

Call me guilty of magical thinking. Okay.

Maybe my consciousness, and my sense of "self" is just a trick that my brain is playing on me, and it can all be explained as coming about by random happenstance. But I'm not feeling it.

The argument to this might be, "just because it's so far beyond comprehension, doesn't mean that that there is a metaphsical aspect to it." Yes, but if you can agree that there is so much that is far beyond our comprehension, then you can't know that it is not guided by some metaphysical intelligence. Therefore being at least agnostic (or even having faith) makes sense.

In my view the atheist has something in common with the faithful believers, and that is the atheist can't handle not knowing the answer. So their answer is a definitive no.

Guys, the argument about god has been decided. God made bananas perfectly in order for humans to eat, therefore God exists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq7LXn4KSrM

Now lets get back to where the anti-science/technology mentality of American society comes from.

kentm says

Guys, the argument about god has been decided. God made bananas perfectly in order for humans to eat, therefore God exists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq7LXn4KSrM
Now lets get back to where the anti-science/technology mentality of American society comes from.

Tide goes in, Tide goes out. Never a miscommunication.

It's really hard to even have these conversations with people who can't be bothered to learn the stuff that we teach in elementary school.

Kevin says

Tide goes in, Tide goes out. Never a miscommunication.

Tidal actions are caused directly by God, by the way. : )

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/02/bill-oreilly-moon-tides_n_817723.html

or they're a direct result of the mother ship's pull when she circles the earth.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/evolution-classroom-bill-nye-science-education

Bubble Bobble says

I get laid more than my english major friends

well, maybe... but I can describe it more eloquently afterward. ;) Porn written by scientists would be downright icky.

elliemae says

Porn written by scientists would be downright icky.

Don't you live in Utah? A state that I recall is a VERY HIGH consumer of porn. I suppose y'all have the best knowledge base to judge from.

Like everything else, it depends on what turns YOU on:

Vicente says

Don’t you live in Utah? A state that I recall is a VERY HIGH consumer of porn. I suppose y’all have the best knowledge base to judge from.

I know that we have (or once had) the dubious honor of being the state with the highest incidence of prescription drug abuse per capita. Also we excel at multi-level marketing schemes that prey on the very weak via affinity crimes (trusting people met at church). And having worked in the medical field in a few different states, I've never met so many nasty people as when I worked in Utah... Now you tell me we excel at porn?

Things are looking up!

Who knew ? You can process voices and they come out perfectly on key.

http://www.symphonyofscience.com/

and speaking of Carl Sagan, have you seen this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlpyGhABXRA

Tenouncetrout says "Their beliefs are not up for debate..."

They are very much up for debate if the intended goal is to replace all world religions with a Gaya/Luciferian govt-sanctioned world religion that's being pumped by the central bankers who use the United Nations as their propaganda tool. The central bankers' many minions are well-paid to make sure this is a "debate" in which people MUST choose sides. The winner will win via paid-for fabricated and manipulated public consensus opinion on TV and in the newspaper. Or even on blog forums such as this one.

Harry Potter. The popularity of Wicca. Avatar and Gaya. Prince Charles with his own nature special on TV. Al Gore and his green training. News media that regularly takes a crap on all major world religions, especially Catholicism and Islam which are direct threats to the planned Gaya/Luciferian world religion. Buddhist groups in the US that embrace "sustainable development." Luciferian groups sprouting up all over, and working feverishly to indoctrinate Buddhists.

Propaganda so smooth that most people reading this don't have a clue. If it's truth, it's fiction. That's how it is these days.

All fiction. In fact, please ignore my post entirely. I am a tinfoil nutter conspiracy freak who should be shot dead in the streets. A total waste of a human being. A relic that has been forgotten. A speck of dust in your intellectual wind that howls for a planned future.

Where can I sign up to join this global world religion? Do I get to wear a special hat?

Kevin says

Where can I sign up to join this global world religion?

You are already a member - you have to "opt out" if you want to quit and stop paying dues.

Kevin says

Do I get to wear a special hat?

Yes, here it is

Sorry couldn't help myself...

Milarepa says

Luciferian

Yes, it's always satan behind the pagan nature lovers. Let's all use up the planet as fast as possible, and then we will be rewarded in heaven.

Milarepa says

When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

If it turns out to be false, wouldn't it be that we were deceived by the data ?

I think it would be cool if you could work the reptilian alien thing into your story. Hey, it's pretty hard to prove that the Bushs aren't alien shapeshifters. Somehow working 9/11 in would be good too.

I definitely like the self deprecating disclaimers at the end.

Kevin says

Where can I sign up to join this global world religion? Do I get to wear a special hat?

My first stop would be the Club of Budapest's (another UN consultant) World Wisdom Council --
http://www.clubofbudapest.org/

Mission
The World Wisdom Council (WWC) has been convened by the Club of Budapest in cooperation with the World Commission on Global Consciousness and Spirituality in the conviction that the paramount requirement in this age of discontinuity and transformation is to recognize that, through the development of a new dimension of consciousness, the world can be constructively changed by women and men wherever they live and whatever their interests and lot in life.

The task of the Council is to build on the power and creativity innate in all people by:

â—¦bringing to the attention of the widest layers of the public both the dangers and the opportunities inherent in the human condition in its global dimension;
â—¦identifying priority areas where individual and cooperative action is needed in order to reinforce progress toward peace and sustainability, locally as well as globally;
â—¦offering guidance for developing the individual and collective wisdom that empowers action capable of bringing about constructive change in the local and the global economic, social, and ecological environment.

The World Wisdom Council realizes that there is already a growing range of initiatives aligned with its mission. In consequence it is taking as one of its highest priorities the formation of networks, partnerships, and collaborations in the interest of mobilizing the forces required for constructive transformation on a global scale.

The World Wisdom Council is politically, socially, and culturally non-partisan, championing the joint interest of all humans and all life on this planet, informing people so that they can move toward a world where they can live in peace with each other and in harmony with nature.

Second stop: the pro-Luciferian Lucis Trust (a leading UN NGO) --
http://www.lucistrust.org/

Third stop: the Earth Charter Initiative --
http://www.earthcharterinaction.org/content/

All nutters, most certainly. Hand me the tinfoil roll so I can make a grandiose hat. Sourced facts do not survive in a world of consensus opinion. Why bother going against the grain? It's futile. I am a complete fake. Sweep me under the carpet and forget about me. Mock me into oblivion. I am the person you hated most in high school. Will you do me the honors and torture me to death like a small animal being run over by a car? I think you will feel much better about your day after doing so.

Go on, you can do it. We're counting on you.

EightBall says

Kevin says

Where can I sign up to join this global world religion?

You are already a member - you have to “opt out” if you want to quit and stop paying dues.
Kevin says

Do I get to wear a special hat?

Yes, here it is

Sorry couldn’t help myself…

I vote for you. You win top honors as Mockery Master. I am very proud of you.
Can you virtually beat me with an iron bar? That's extra credit.

If you're happy and you're brainwashed, clap your hands!

(clap clap)

marcus says

Milarepa says

Luciferian

Yes, it’s always satan behind the pagan nature lovers. Let’s all use up the planet as fast as possible, and then we will be rewarded in heaven.
Milarepa says

When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

If it turns out to be false, wouldn’t it be that we were deceived by the data ?
I think it would be cool if you could work the reptilian alien thing into your story. Hey, it’s pretty hard to prove that the Bushs aren’t alien shapeshifters. Somehow working 9/11 in would be good too.
I definitely like the self deprecating disclaimers at the end.

Yes, you most obviously are superior to me in every way imaginable. I am honored to share the same thinking space as you. I am sorry I sourced my insignificant opinions, which was really the wrong thing to do.

Will you accept my sincerest apologies? Think of my very stupid posts as a release from logic. A sudden profound realization that the majority rules. I am with you, if you will allow me to survive in your world. Can I be a popular kid, too? Please? Will you even consider this?

c5521763 says

Can you virtually beat me with an iron bar?

That's a feat I'd like to see. How would one go about this virtual beating? And, speaking of conspiracies, is there enough tin foil to go around - and who holds the tin foil? Is it like an airplane, where you put your own hat on first and then tend to the lesser, weaker around you?

c5521763 says

Sourced facts do not survive in a world of consensus opinion. Why bother going against the grain

Please share your sourced facts. I'm all ears. But, here's how you do it. State the fact first in your own words. Then provide the link to the source.

You are just as bad--you mock everyone else because they aren't in the know like you. Well, here's your chance. Present your case--write a couple of paragraphs explaining what is going on, then provide your sources. If I remember correctly, you said you did a great deal of research to uncover some amazing goings on. Instead of mocking us, why not tell the world what you found??

tatupu70 says

c5521763 says

Sourced facts do not survive in a world of consensus opinion. Why bother going against the grain

Please share your sourced facts. I’m all ears. But, here’s how you do it. State the fact first in your own words. Then provide the link to the source.
You are just as bad–you mock everyone else because they aren’t in the know like you. Well, here’s your chance. Present your case–write a couple of paragraphs explaining what is going on, then provide your sources. If I remember correctly, you said you did a great deal of research to uncover some amazing goings on. Instead of mocking us, why not tell the world what you found??

You're doing wonderfully! I mean, I already supplied facts (see above). And now I haven't because you claimed it as your own. How powerful you are.

"Be not fond of the dull smoke-colored light from hell."
~The Tibetan Book of the Dead

"Lucifer means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). The Sufi teacher Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan taught that 'Luciferian Light' is Light that has become dislocated from the Divine Source and is thus associated with the seductive false light of the lower ego, which lures humankind into self-centered delusion. Here Lucifer represents what the Sufis term the 'Nafs', the ego."
~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Milarepa--

You are doing wonderfully as well. Instead of simply sharing the facts, you use the tried and true "I've already supplied them" implying that you are too lazy to write them again.

But, of course, you aren't too lazy to write another 2 paragraphs. I guess you have selective laziness...

Okay, so it sounds like we're all in agreement that religion has played a huge part in the intellectual decline of the US.

Anybody been to the Creation Museum yet?

You need only look at the history of the Creationists to see they are idiots.

People in search of some sort of framework that will soft-peddle their shamanism to the weak-minded.

Classic example is "Of Pandas and People" a book which attempts to make their nonsense sound believable while failing miserably to poke holes in real science. Early drafts said "creationist" but after they figured out the "Creation" thing wasn't selling, they came up with "Intelligent Design". Then a simple search and replace of "Creation" with "Intelligent Design" and pop out the book. However this led to awkwardness like "creationist" being converted to the telltale "intelligent designist".

P.S. Milarepa, it's spelled Gaia not Gaya.

Thats great. He's so heroic. And blond, why is he blond? I've always though there'd be less Christians if Jesus had been ugly...

This is how it starts:

On a side note, anybody read "The Physics of Santa Claus":

http://www.comedycorner.org/5.html

Milarepa humbled says

I am honored to share the same thinking space as you. I am sorry I sourced my insignificant opinions, which was really the wrong thing to do.

No, no, it was I who was wrong to have taken any issue with your opinions. Please forgive me and pray that God can forgive me for implying that stories of our reward in heaven might be motivated by something other than the best interests of future generations. Please bear no ill will, that I might not feel a continued shame over my thoughtless and inconsiderate sharing of comments that might be construed as a contradiction of yours.

Milarepa says

Harry Potter. The popularity of Wicca. Avatar and Gaya. Prince Charles with his own nature special on TV. Al Gore and his green training. News media that regularly takes a crap on all major world religions, especially Catholicism and Islam which are direct threats to the planned Gaya/Luciferian world religion.

You may right. But, question master: If and when spiritual growth and evolution were ever to occur, with new spiritual traditions that were inspired by the divine, ones with more evolved age appropriate (21st centrury) views, how will we know that it is not a Luciferian conspiracy ?

Or is that impossible ?

ps: you may refer to me as "grasshopper" if you wish.

marcus says

ps: you may refer to me as “grasshopper” if you wish.

Pebble Snatcher! New name!

Milarepa humbled says

I vote for you. You win top honors as Mockery Master. I am very proud of you.
Can you virtually beat me with an iron bar? That’s extra credit.

If you’re happy and you’re brainwashed, clap your hands!

(clap clap)

Wow. Gone for a day and a new angry person appears. Don't worry about Kevin - he wears big boy pants unlike you and probably understands that the picture was a FREAKING JOKE! Life is too short to be that angry.

I was kind of looking forward to what rendition of myself Kevin would respond with - I don't really look like the guy riding the dinosaur.

EightBall says

- I don’t really look like the guy riding the dinosaur

I'm thinking that you're black, obese and have a white "8" on your belly. And I like the way you roll!

My former gf was quite religious and at times I found it very frustrating when discussing science with her. One of the main difficulties we had was basic terms during communication. For example, she once asked me if I 'believed' in alien beings. I told her that no, I didn't 'believe' in aliens, but I theorized that by mere mathematical probability given the vastness of the universe life most likely exists on other worlds. She couldn't grasp the difference between belief and mathematical probability. She wants to believe we've been visited by little green men, but there is no credible evidence of this. It seems that any debates we entered into regarding science all seemed to break down to me believing in science (vs believing what the bible says). Interestingly enough, given that she is a type 1 diabetic, her very survival depends on science. I once tried to explain the difference between religious faith and science. Religion (at least Christianity anyway) is rigid and totally based on faith- faith in what the bible says, faith that God exists, faith that the clergyman provide valid interpretation of the dogma. It is unquestionable. You must believe- it is the central tenant in Christianity above even emulating the moral teachings of the savior himself. There is no allowance for challenging the religious viewpoint. Science on the other hand is built on welcoming challenge. The scientist developes a theory ( an educated guess) and sets out to prove it. Sometimes he has success and other times he doesn't. When he successfully proves his theory he publishes the results in some widely read scientific journal. As other scientists read and evaluate his theory and results, questions may arise with regard to his methods for testing his theory and decide to run their own tests to attempt to disprove or futher clarify the results. It's not personal, it's the scientific method, and that's the reason why science advances. When enough scientists test a theory and the theory holds up only then is it generally accepted as fact. But even then, if someone comes up with an alternate theory, they are free to and encouraged to challenge the accepted fact. Unfortunately, this explanation seemed lost on her probably because this just didn't fit in with her 'belief' system. I would consider myself a Christian atheist even though that may sound like a contradiction in terms. I think there was a guy named Jesus Christ and that he did wonderful things and showed how to care for and love your fellow man. It is wonderful philosophy on morals. So I try to live and emulate these morals; however, I don't believe or see any evidence of the supernatural. It is a nice notion that some benevolent supernatural being loves and looks after us, but I see no evidence of that. Sadly, I think there is much evidence that none exists. If God looks out for us why are little children raped and killed every day, why does he let so many people suffer? Yes yes, God works in mysterious ways. Mysterious way indeed. Sorry, but I'm just not impressed. That being said, I think religion has its place. I think learning a moral code based on love and selflessness is a good thing. And if people want to believe in the carrot and stick approach of heaven and hell motivates them to live a moral life, great. But not everyone needs the promise of utopian afterlife in order to be a good person in this life. I personally believe if religion put alot more emphisis on moral behavior instead of unwavering faith, religion and science could coexist quite nicely, and maybe, just maybe we could have a kinder, gentler society.

Early Christianity had a fair amount in common with Buddhism.

Kindness...

Tolerance...

Brotherhood...

Love...

a ruthless realism acknowledging that life is what it is...here on earth...here and now...The Kingdom of God meaning goodness is right here or it should be... I am what I am becoming",

I can respect the core of that, while I reject much of what was tacked on later.

"Believe in what He (Jesus) tried to teach without the rigmarole...Piety is not what the lessons bring to people, its the mistakes they bring to the lessons" - John, 'The Man from Earth (2007)'

deanrite says

My former gf was quite religious and at times I found it very frustrating when discussing science with her.

You should have tried speaking in paragraphs.

Yeah, I think you have something there vincinte. I think early on clergy recognized the inherent savagery of humans toward one another and felt it necessary to find some way to reign in mankind's brutality. It seems the promise of eternal punishment in the afterlife might give those bent on mayhem some pause for thought. And so hell became one of the principles to keep the faithful on the straight and narrow. Funny how it didn't take long for this concept to be employed as a powerful tool in bringing political power to the church in dealing with enemies. Fight in the name of God, go to heaven, those non-believers will go to hell even if the faithful have to kill them. Even now this is done in one way or another, though not always in a violent manner. One example is the big fight over california's prop 8. Churches call to arms (or wallets moreover) to defeat the perceived sinful was a rousing success- financially that is. That's why I would like to see chuches taxed, with deductions for doing good works- caring for the poor, helping the sick, and so on. Isn't this what Jesus would be doing? Spreading the word should be secondary, especially as it is employed today- looking to find converts to fatten the kitty. Seeing some of these very wealthy televangelists spout political propaganda from the pulpit seems a bit unethical to me. Perhaps some of the faithful should consider something Jesus once said- beware of false prophets, for when you reach the gates of heaven, I will not know them.

deanrite says

Yeah, I think you have something there vincinte. I think early on clergy recognized the inherent savagery of humans toward one another and felt it necessary to find some way to reign in mankind’s brutality. It seems the promise of eternal punishment in the afterlife might give those bent on mayhem some pause for thought. And so hell became one of the principles to keep the faithful on the straight and narrow. Funny how it didn’t take long for this concept to be employed as a powerful tool in bringing political power to the church in dealing with enemies. Fight in the name of God, go to heaven, those non-believers will go to hell even if the faithful have to kill them. Even now this is done in one way or another, though not always in a violent manner. One example is the big fight over california’s prop 8. Churches call to arms (or wallets moreover) to defeat the perceived sinful was a rousing success- financially that is. That’s why I would like to see chuches taxed, with deductions for doing good works- caring for the poor, helping the sick, and so on. Isn’t this what Jesus would be doing? Spreading the word should be secondary, especially as it is employed today- looking to find converts to fatten the kitty. Seeing some of these very wealthy televangelists spout political propaganda from the pulpit seems a bit unethical to me. Perhaps some of the faithful should consider something Jesus once said- beware of false prophets, for when you reach the gates of heaven, I will not know them.

No, you're missing the point. If you were to use multiple paragraphs it'd be easier to read your posts. I stopped reading after the first sentence.

Just tryin' to help.

Kevin says

deanrite says

My former gf was quite religious and at times I found it very frustrating when discussing science with her.

You should have tried speaking in paragraphs.

So angry... are you aware at how angry you are? Your anger and need to mock for me means that your anger has clouded your opinion and that your opinion is therefore utter nonsense.

Could you please make an attempt at communicating without being so very angry through the use of mockery?

Nelson says

your anger has clouded your opinion and that your opinion is therefore utter nonsense.

Nelson, I just read your three comments so far. You're setting quite the example of how to keep ones emotions out of their comments. Compared to you, Kevin is about as emotional as "Data" on Star Trek (Next Generation), a reference that may be lost on you as you probably aren't the sci fi type.

Care to share with us who your past patrick.net incarnations were ?

Nelson says

Kevin says

deanrite says

My former gf was quite religious and at times I found it very frustrating when discussing science with her.

You should have tried speaking in paragraphs.

So angry… are you aware at how angry you are? Your anger and need to mock for me means that your anger has clouded your opinion and that your opinion is therefore utter nonsense.
Could you please make an attempt at communicating without being so very angry through the use of mockery?

I'm not angry. My eyes just glaze over when someone writes a few thousand words without a single line break.

Similarly, my eyes glaze over when people write rambling, incoherent responses to things that bear little relation to the original discussion.

marcus says

Nelson says

your anger has clouded your opinion and that your opinion is therefore utter nonsense.

Nelson, I just read your three comments so far. You’re setting quite the example of how to keep ones emotions out of their comments. Compared to you, Kevin is about as emotional as “Data” on Star Trek (Next Generation), a reference that may be lost on you as you probably aren’t the sci fi type.
Care to share with us who your past patrick.net incarnations were ?

Your opinion is of no consequence. You have little significance.

Yes yes, I know separate paragraphs. I'm perfectly capable of writing with paragraphs, but the reason why I don't is because i use an iPhone. For some reason when commenting, the size of the font changes when I press return so I am unable so see what I am writing because it is obscured by the keyboard. If you want to read it you'll just have to mentally break it up- or not.

My main point is that science is a very rational process and it doesn't really work all that well when someone of faith tries to make the data conform to their belief system.