patrick.net

shrekgrinch says

Rouxben says

I wouldn't work for minimum wage either unless I was starving and homeless.

That's the point.

I think it is exactly the point. We humans learn through experiences. When we are permanently surrounded by comforts we forget just how hard someone had to work to get to that point and no longer appreciate it.

In our society way too many just became lazy and complacent, like union workers, I see people who would rather sit on government hand out with no shame while refusing work that will pay well enough.

Nomograph says

I've never worked for minimum wage in my life. Even in high school I was able to hustle up better than minimum wage.

Good for her. Settling for rock bottom is nothing to be proud of, and it's good to hold yourself to high standards.

You have no problem mocking and belittling people who are struggling to do the right thing and make ends meet, unless they're in a union of course.

Like a clergy refusing charity for those that don't convert, you'd sooner spit on your fellow man than see him succeed by his own free will. People like you are why I have no faith in humanity.

Don't preach about responsibility to someone who is willing to work for minimum wage when your own self-deserving ass would admittedly be taking hand-outs from the taxpayers.

klarek says

You have no problem mocking and belittling people who are struggling to do the right thing and make ends meet, unless they're in a union of course.

wtf are you talking about??? You're the one who comes on here preaching, mocking, and belittling. Not Nomo.

tatupu70 says

You're the one who comes on here preaching, mocking, and belittling. Not Nomo.

Practically every thread he chimes in on contains a message along the lines of "you need to stop being angry, stop watching Fox News, and stop blaming others for your misery." The offense he takes at people calling out the absurd b.s. going on today is hilarious, but his sermons are insulting. Lucky for him that you're always on his toes and ready to kiss his ass when people call him out for his sanctimonious b.s. FFS, he's mocking people for working for minimum wage. It doesn't get much lower than that.

Nomograph says

I don't know where you people get these fantasies about teachers raking in high salaries...it's complete nonsense.

It's not the salaries that are huge, it's the benefits. When you figure in the value of their lavish pensions and health benefits, you have to about double their actual salary to make a comparison to private industry.

zzyzzx says

It's not the salaries that are huge, it's the benefits. When you figure in the value of their lavish pensions and health benefits, you have to about double their actual salary to make a comparison to private industry.

Lavish? I must remind myself that if by some miracle I live long enough to collect some sort of government retirement, to invite you over. We'll have tea, you in your cheap HMO wheelchair me in my gold-plated hospital bed. Then we can reminisce about how people in government employ were once upon a time promised maybe slightly better benefits than private industry to compensate for the fact that the pay sucked and so did the working conditions, and oh yeah no bonuses or stock options tossed around when times were good. Then Lucy pulled the football away and Charlie Brown hit the ground and was disappointed again. Oh the gold plating will turn out to be gold spray paint.

This thread is useless without pics of the student in question.

Vicente says

Lavish? I must remind myself that if by some miracle I live long enough to collect some sort of government retirement, to invite you over. We'll have tea, you in your cheap HMO wheelchair me in my gold-plated hospital bed. Then we can reminisce about how people in government employ were once upon a time promised maybe slightly better benefits than private industry to compensate for the fact that the pay sucked and so did the working conditions, and oh yeah no bonuses or stock options tossed around when times were good. Then Lucy pulled the football away and Charlie Brown hit the ground and was disappointed again. Oh the gold plating will turn out to be gold spray paint.

I don't know who you normally hang out with but getting a pension, espically a lavish teacher's pension, is way better than what most people get, which is no pension. That and significant bonuses and stock options aren't the norm, unless you are on the Board of Directors. Most people don't get them at all or would gladly trade them in for a pension. The 8K bonus I once got doesn't nearly make up for years of pensions payments than teachers get. And I have to work year round!

zzyzzx says

you have to about double their actual salary to make a comparison to private industry.

what complete and utter BS. I pay in to my pension fund, it comes out of my salary (instead of SS). They pay in too, as an employer would match your FICA (or is it the employer pay in a bit more) if you are in private industry.

Now in some places it might be slightly different. If you have lessor health benefits than me in private industry or you think my pension costs way more to the employer than SS then add 5K or maybe 10K if you want to really exaggerate.

But I'm pretty sure you would prefer to just lie about it instead.

I know I know, you confuse what I get for a pension with the cost, compared to SS. I'm pretty sure you were talking about the comparative cost to the employer. The rest is just envy. You could have gotten a government job, if you had known you were going to be so envious. Also, why aren't you complaining about mailmen, cops, all the countless clerical jobs. The really sweet pensions are in Police and Fire. Ours are not nearly as good. I think that is because they (in some cases) risk their lives.

zzyzzx says

The 8K bonus I once got doesn't nearly make up for years of pensions payments than teachers get. And I have to work year round!

Amazingly, I work year round too. A dull staff IT job. During the 90's every 2nd friend was telling me what a FOOL I was for not joining their startup company. The "lavish pension" is a ridiculous talking point. Sure maybe somewhere somebody is getting double the retirement payout you are, but it ain't me. Just like somebody hit the lottery or a CEO is sitting on a gold toilet somewhere taking a dump on the head of the peasants I can always find someone I can envy. You don't aim high enough if you are envying the clerks who will someday be in the next bed over at the same retirement home sipping the same prune juice.

Got WORK to do, later.

jvolstad says

Is zero wage better then minimum wage?

Sometimes, yes. I can't speak of this individual. However, depending on what she does with her time, refusing to work for minimum wage might be a prudent idea.

Usually young people have time on their side. However, in one respect this is not true for the Millennials. When it comes to getting out from under college debt, young people do NOT have the luxury of time. There is only a short reprieve from the time you graduate from college to the time interest starts accruing on the college loans. Once interest starts, it is unlikely that a minimum wage job will even cover the interest, nonetheless the principle. The cost of that loan could skyrocket like an ARM reseting.

As such, it is very wise for the young to seek the fastest way to pay off these debts, which can easily reach over $250k in some cases. Now let's give this young lady the benefit of a doubt. Let's presume she is interested in paying off these large debt accrued earning a higher degree for the sole purpose of being economically more productive, rather than her just being lazy.

Time spent working the minimum-wage job, a McJob so to speak, is time that cannot be spent looking for other jobs, interviewing, learning a skill that would be in demand in her field, or even taking a coop that is relevant to her profession.

Now, I paid my own way through college, but I didn't do it with McJobs. I did it by taking jobs that were relevant to my career so that the work experience would make me more valuable once I graduated. Doing so is especially important since there are so many college graduates nowadays. Employers care far more about real-world (i.e., paid) experience than degrees or non-paid experienced.

It could very well pay off for this college sophomore to hold out for a better paying and more relevant job. This, of course, depends on how actively she pursues work in her field.

I wouldn't recommend working at McDonalds for any college student. It is a waste of time that could be used getting experience that will be useful once he/she graduates. One of the toughest times to get a job is when your fresh out of college. Having three or four "real jobs" under your belt makes a huge difference.

It would be interesting to hear this woman state her case for refusing the low paying job. Absent that, I wouldn't judge her harshly.

EMan says

shrekgrinch says

Rouxben says

I wouldn't work for minimum wage either unless I was starving and homeless.

That's the point.

I think it is exactly the point. We humans learn through experiences. When we are permanently surrounded by comforts we forget just how hard someone had to work to get to that point and no longer appreciate it.

In our society way too many just became lazy and complacent, like union workers, I see people who would rather sit on government hand out with no shame while refusing work that will pay well enough.

Oh, I retract my comment then. Your logic clearly justifies a federal minimum wage that doesn't afford a reasonable standard of living by any stretch of the imagination in most of the country.

Anyone refusing to work for it must be some kind of freeloading hillbilly that needs some "life experience" lessons to teach them about all the hard work that went into others' wealth.

Just read all the comments.

Wow.

Vicente says

Sure maybe somewhere somebody is getting double the retirement payout you are, but it ain't me.

You missed my point entirely. Those who work in private industry don't get pensions! It's not a matter of someones pension being double it's a matter of something on the order of thousands of dollars per month lavish teachers pension vs ZERO.

Does your employer not have a 401K or some sort of retirement plan zzyzzx? If they do not, are you not socking away something?

What is so magic about a "pension" to you? If my employer pays me $50K and socks away $10K a year into a defined benefits plan or pension, how is that different than yours paying you $60K and reminding you to save some of it? Pensions are part of a compensation package indeed, and typically the total compensation is lower in public sector than private.

E.g. this Wisconsin study showed public sector compensation 4.8% lower than private when matching education etc.

http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/policy/EPI_PolicyMemorandum_173.pdf?nocdn=1

Interesting article here about pensions sometimes outperforming 401K.

http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/retirement/2006/12/22/do-pensions-beat-401ks.aspx

Turns out when given the tiller, over half of participants put ALL or NONE of their money into equities. They ignore the advice to spread their risks around, and consequently often suffer for it. The idea that everyone should be their own money manager has worked out to the advantage of Wall Street hovering up fees but has demonstrably NOT delivered it's claimed benefits to retirees.

klarek says

tatupu70 says

You're the one who comes on here preaching, mocking, and belittling. Not Nomo.

Practically every thread he chimes in on contains a message along the lines of "you need to stop being angry, stop watching Fox News, and stop blaming others for your misery." The offense he takes at people calling out the absurd b.s. going on today is hilarious, but his sermons are insulting. Lucky for him that you're always on his toes and ready to kiss his ass when people call him out for his sanctimonious b.s. FFS, he's mocking people for working for minimum wage. It doesn't get much lower than that.

taputu has been whining about foreclosures and housing prices dropping since day one. He is probably one of those who bought into the bubble and got ticked off for not cashing out fast enough, so now whines every day how life is not fair.

Rouxben says

Oh, I retract my comment then. Your logic clearly justifies a federal minimum wage that doesn't afford a reasonable standard of living by any stretch of the imagination in most of the country.

I've done it, it is quite possible. A lot of people do it, yes you can't have a mansion a red corvette and 20 weeks paid vacation with it, but somehow most people pull it off just fine. Having a pulse does not entitle you to the fruits of others labor.

EMan says

I've done it, it is quite possible. A lot of people do it, yes you can't have a mansion a red corvette and 20 weeks paid vacation with it, but somehow most people pull it off just fine. Having a pulse does not entitle you to the fruits of others labor.

Oh yes it's so easy to live on minimum wage:

http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/try-living-on-minimum-wage.html

Because everybody on minimum wage, is just a college kid under mom and dad's insurance plan making beer & iPod money. They are never 40+ with maybe kids of their own and medical problems and a broken water heater. Walmart encourages it's workers to apply for all sorts of government aid because they know something you do not, the minimum wage is when things are great just scraping by and with the wind against you it is not nearly enough.

Vicente says

What is so magic about a "pension" to you? If my employer pays me $50K and socks away $10K a year into a defined benefits plan or pension, how is that different than yours paying you $60K and reminding you to save some of it?

Big difference if it's a defined benefits plan because you get that for as long as you live. The 10K will only get me pennies compared to the thousands you'll be getting each month as part of your pension. That and it's more lile they really need to be socking away a lot more then 10K per year per employee into the pension fund (unless they want it to go bankrupt). In your secnario if it's a combined contribution plan, then it could be roughtly equivalent, I think (unless income taxes makes it otherwise).

The girl's in college and doesn't have to work, obviously. She'll be working the rest of her life (unless she marries money); let's give her a break.

When I see kids enjoying summer, hanging around the pool instead of working, I say more power to 'em. Youth is the time for care-free screwing off.

Insofar as her choice of careers - her dad is paying for it (dearly might I add). It's none of our business what she's majoring in, it's his dime. And acting can be beneficial to many professions - acting like you care, acting like work's important...

zzyzzx says

Vicente says

What is so magic about a "pension" to you? If my employer pays me $50K and socks away $10K a year into a defined benefits plan or pension, how is that different than yours paying you $60K and reminding you to save some of it?

Big difference if it's a defined benefits plan because you get that for as long as you live. The 10K will only get me pennies compared to the thousands you'll be getting each month as part of your pension.

I'm pretty sure that being a right winger requires certain deficits or challenges in many areas. Especially Math, Finance and Economics.

10K@ 5% for 40 years, grows to 1.27 million.

If you annuitize 1.27 million for 20 years (at only 4%) it would pay 100,000 per year back for 20 years. The teacher only gets their ending salary which is way less than that for the rest of their life. 20 years is a reasonable or slightly high estimate for average number of years lived after retirement (near 65). Very few teachers retire before 65, and if they do, it's probably without full pension.

It's the wonders of compound interest. Actually CalStrs pension fund invests in real estate, the stock market and various other securities and has historically done better than 5%.

You might want to look in to that compound interest thing zzyzzx. It's pretty cool. In Mathematics, it's the concept of exponential growth.

I'm a teacher with a decent pension. People can't retire with their full ending salary without working 40 years (about 76K if they worked 40). I'm sure you are aware that most pensions are based on a formula, that is a multiple(factor) times the number of years worked times ending salary( or times avg three years highest salary).

marcus says

You might want to look in to that compound interest thing zzyzzx. It's pretty cool. In Mathematics, it's the concept of exponential growth.

In concept it's great. In reality it doesn't always provide exponential growth if markets collapse. I know people who have less than 10 grand in their 401k's and they are in their 50's. Your concept also doesn't account for a lot of other perks too, and pension spiking which really should be addressed.

I used my texas instruments calculator and 835/ month payed in to come up with that number (1.27 million)

Here's a web site you can try, the number is slightly less, in part because 835 is $1.67/month too high, and also because it's contributed monthly.

Try here using 10,000 per year.

Very simple financial calculator http://www.bloomberg.com/personal-finance/calculators/retirement/

EncinoMan says

In concept it's great. In reality it doesn't always provide exponential growth if markets collapse.

Sometimes they do the opposite of collapsing (such as stock market from 1982 to 2000). The possibility of it being much better offsets the probability of it being worse. We have to make some sort of informed realistic estimate. Also they diversify.

MY point was simply that Vicente is correct. If someone is paid 10K less, and gets a defined benefit pension, why is that such a big deal ? And why do so many math impaired right wingers act like it's worth 40K per year (instead of 10) ?

(hint: I'll tell you why - because they are backing their way into trying to argue that teachers and other public servants are paid too much).

Btw, I totally agree about pension spiking. It pisses me off that some people take more than their share out of the fund.

Nomograph says

Good for her. Settling for rock bottom is nothing to be proud of, and it's good to hold yourself to high standards.

A college professor might say something like that, followed by...

You're my student so you're too good for that.

Don't worry about the tuition, mommie-daddy/taxpayers/your student loans will pay for your College Entitlement, and my Cushy (tenured) Gig.

Correction: I said that 1.27 million annuitized for 20 years (at 4%) would pay out 100K for twenty years. (but I used 5%)

Using 4% it is actually only $92,400/ year for twenty years.