patrick.net

Bap33 says

llie, I am not "angry", but I am not into being silent while getting porked.

Yeas I bet you dunked your bread in some of that good gravy your self.

Nomograph says

+1

Welfare should cover basic needs during hard times, rather than try to give welfare recipients a feeling of normalcy and societal integration. They should seek this on their own or stay in the projects.

you got no clue what you are saying. extreme poverty does some thing to a mans soul. it can gut a guy right out of the chute worse than any thing. you are probably a strong guy. I do not doubt it. but you seem to think every one is just as strong and smart as you and this is your MISTAKE. no every one can be that strong. it does not mean they are useless and should be thrown to the shitpile excuse my language.

some real upsetting ideas on here today.

Elliemae,
The mom in the Napa Valley Register said the family was getting food aid.

http://napavalleyregister.com/news/local/local-family-struggles-to-find-housing/article_4f41dcca-f09f-11e0-8b60-001cc4c002e0.html?mode=comments

It is almost impossible to get on a waiting list for Section 8, yet once in the program, it's OK to stay for 10 years. It's not like the long-term stayers don't continue to have legitimate reasons to need help, but others don't have a chance to be helped at all as a result. As long as this resource is so limited, perhaps a strict 3-year subsidy would be fairest to all.

Used to be that one family could remain in public housing for generations. They'd just add family members to the lease and when they died the place remained occupied by family. I'd seen 3 generations do this.

Housing isn't time limited in most cases. That's why it's so hard to get into. It sounds good - limiting the benefit - but what if they're disabled? What if the economy tanks (it could happen, hahaha) and there are no jobs? What if...

JodyChunder says

extreme poverty does some thing to a mans soul.

yes, you're right.

Bap33 says

I do not agree with any Gov mandated forced wealth transfers between taxpayers/voters, and that is corp welfare included. I kinda support farm programs, because I like the idea of having food ...

Farm subsidies are designed to keep prices down, but they are largely available to corporations and keep the corporations' pockets lined.

Our taxes go to a lot of things, why not help some people out? The majority of my property taxes go to the schools, when I don't have any children in school. People around here have 10 children and live off the welfare of their church, as well as the government, and I'm paying their tuition. I'm not angry, although I do believe that people should pay "by the head" for their children to attend school.

If everyone had to pay a premium after the 3rd kid, they might think twice about procreating beyond their means. The mormon way is to replenish the earth... but i digress.

food stamps aren't enough to cover everything, but they're a start. I'd rather contribute toward someone's food stamps than to see them waiting in line in the cold for handouts at a shelter.

Section 8 works; it's not easy to get and even though I too have family members who live off the system, I've seen people better themselves because of the system.

school:
I never voted to have public schooling. I would scrap the current system in an instant and go private. We would see more guy/girl only schooling, something I feel would result in better classroom attention and better pacing of education by teachers. We would see vocational focus return to schools. We would see tax dollars floating around, that just may help feed a few people in a Section 8 unit.
So, your point about schooling, I agree 1,000%. I would love to see PARENTS be "allowed" to choose and send their kid to be educated.

BUT .... welfare people are not included in that private school theme. They have more kids than productive people have, and could never pay for a private school. They have no income. Plus, they raise their kids like crap 90% of the time. Bad attitude, lazy, mean, kids that are exposed to some very bad things thanks to the welfare queen that hatched them. The moms are home all day, and "could" be made to educate their kids. They "could" be forced to awake at 6am and be productive. They "could" NOT have a TV, Cell Phone, Video Game, Tattoos, smoking habit, drug habit, drinking habit...... but they will never give them up. How many inner-city mutli-moms, with kids from multi-dads, do you think would even be able to follow a simple set of rules to educate their kid? They only do what is minimum to be handed the basics for survival. If selling the kid made them more welfare cash, the kid would be sold. And THAT is what they teach their kids. The kids are educated in how stupid it is to work for something you can take or be given for free. Drug use, getting drunk, sex at very early age, unprotected sex, teenage moms trigger the cas cow, mutli-kids from multi-dads, drop outs .... hmmmm ... so far I just don't see where I was asked my opinion on these choices, so I do not wish to hand over my earned income to the Gov so these bad choices can be rewarded.

You mention the Church helping it's members. THAT is EXACTLY how our society should work. If everyone was made to have accountability to their neighbors and their family for the aide they require, then things would change pretty quick. The Gov and others who are oft times called "bleeding hearts" dream up ways to remove the accountability factor. The EBT cards are made to look and function like credit/debt cards. THat is bullshit. EBT cards should be super-sized, made a bright orange color, have their own checkout line, and a spotlight and trumpet blasts should go on when you swipe it so everyone looks. As an example.

Bap,

I'm a social worker, and have worked with many low-income families. I respectfully disagree with your narrow view of people on welfare. Your view is personal, and certainly not indicative of many of the people with whom I've worked.

Sure, there are many people out there who are "lazy" and scam the system. But there are many who don't and work hard for their children to have better lives.

So far as the church helping - sure, that's one example of how it should be. However, these same people are collecting welfare benefits while they collect church benefits. So don't lecture me about the accountability to their neighbors, etc - it's demeaning enough to try to live on the paltry amounts of welfare without having to wear a huge "w" on their shirts.

By the way, if a woman does get a job, she has to wait for a slot in a daycare program. Often times, it's more expensive to work than it is to stay home with the kids.

These issues are complicated and can't be globally applied to the situation that you have in your family. You're jaded, and because of that you can't see the benefits of helping people so that they don't starve to death on the streets while you sit in your home by the fire burning dollar bills and sipping fine wine.

Just sayin'. By the way, I'm out of this conversation because you obviously aren't open to understanding that not everyone is successful. so many professions have vanished into thin air and there aren't jobs out there - with your reasoning they should just suck it up and live out of dumpsters.

There, but for the grace of God(ess), go I (and you).

Bap33 says

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school:
I never voted to have public schooling. I would scrap the current system in an instant and go private. We would see more guy/girl only schooling, something I feel would result in better classroom attention and better pacing of education by teachers. We would see vocational focus return to schools. We would see tax dollars floating around, that just may help feed a few people in a Section 8 unit.

you are some dreamer. its always the guys with the full bellys that cant believe anyone might be starving. so fed up with jokers like you.

@ellie.
I give to those in need with a glad heart. Nobody needs to tell me to give back.

Your hate for the church keeps you from seeing how warm it feels to have someone who actually knows who you are, what your trouble is, and what you are going through, to lend a helping hand - a helping hand that is not paid by wealth transfers under threat of law, but open handed giving. It is much more personal and builds better people, neighborhoods, towns, states, and eventually Nations .. in my opinion.

I turn over taxes under force of law, and the Gov gives out CASH to other voters. That is a very bad idea.

When the poor are just "the poor" due to bad luck or bad gene-pool, then we can have this conversation again. But, as long as the poor are the drunks, the dope smokers, the cranksters, the teenage breeders, the drop-outs, the smokers, and the single parents, we will have trouble in this conversation.

Personal Accountability is not popular at the welfare office. Bad choices should be painful, so they become less popular. Like Grandpa said, "Doing something stupid is supposed to hurt so you avoid it next time".

elliemae says

By the way, if a woman does get a job, she has to wait for a slot in a daycare program. Often times, it's more expensive to work than it is to stay home with the kids.

I am for moms staying home to raise kids. I am for dads paying for their families. I did not get to pick the boy for the girl, and I did not get to make the baby, so she is responsible for who she picked, and I am not responsible for any of it. The only guy that got the sex should be involved in raising the kid and taking care of the mom as she raised the kid. If the girl is not 18, the boy should be jailed. If the girl is of age, the boy should made to sleep nights in jail, and stay weekends in jail, until he has repaid all the debt to the state for his kid and babymoma. All females who get on aide to have a baby/with a baby, should get NORPLANT. The girls should also give up all right to aide when they have NORPLANT removed.

How can we have all of these teenaged moms and nobody going to jail for rape? Around these parts, each Quinceanerra is followed by a baby shower for the same girl the very next week.

Bap33 says

If the girl is not 18, the boy should be jailed. If the girl is of age, the boy should made to sleep nights in jail, and stay weekends in jail, until he has repaid all the debt to the state for his kid and babymoma.

Jails better than Section 8? Well jail ain't free. who you think pays for jails? or you just feel better bacause it is PENURY. You like the idea of punishing a man. You got that in you. You think throwin a dude in the slammers goin to make him a better member of society? no. you just crave punishing a person.

you sound like you got all the answers here junior. Let me ask you for some advise since you are so easy with it. What do I do with my people? I got a veteran from the Afghanistan war and he suffers POST TRAUMATIC STRESS SYNDROME. not a bad guy at all but hes got problems he is working thru. i made sure he is in a nice quite place and i check on him and the boy. i got another old gal who has Grand Mall seizeures when she get she gets around flouresent lighting. What she supposed to do? Is jail the answer here to? Or should we do like you buddy says and keep them all across the tracks on the edges of town where they belong with all the rapers and killers of children and big bad cholos. keep them down.

i know you are conversing with Allie on this but i can not help but take personal offense at yours and some of the other very trashy ideas on here. you have not put fourth one single idea what does not scream BIGOT or what does not scream disgust or what does scream unforgiving hypocrite.

elliemae says

Your compassion is underwhelming

Because I don't want me taxes jacked to support people who could be doing jibs currently being done my Mexicans, my compassion is viewed as "underwhelming". I don't see how enabling a bunch of people to be lazy is somehow "compassionate". That's a job for a charity, not the taxpayers.

Zlxr says

And second - since I think this area pays something like up to around $1600 or more of the rent for some people - why can't the State or the Feds purchase homes that would eventually be paid off - and then in the future they could charge people low rent and make money instead of us taxpayers having to constantly foot the bill while the investors (who are probably also some of our politicians) make all the money.

Bap33 says

Yes, S8 pisses me off. Not because I do not want a warm safe place for people to sleep. I would be happy to buy some multi-room housing for those in need. But, I do not agree with taxpayers paying for investulators to line their pockets while renting to who-ever, turning good neighborhoods to gangland

Nomograph says

Bap33 says

Get Section 8 out of the sub-divisions and back into the projects.

+1

Welfare should cover basic needs during hard times, rather than try to give welfare recipients a feeling of normalcy and societal integration. They should seek this on their own or stay in the projects.

hmmmmm .... could be on to something here

Bap33 says

this shows a lack of basic truth or understanding on your part.

Is that right? Tell me, how many units under section 8 contract have you owned or managed?

Bap33 says

if you will be honest, you will admit that a person (or corp) will use the Section 8 rentals the most once they learn how to game the system.

I am honest, and that's not at all how it works. You rent your properties to people who apply to rent them. You market your properties, people see your marketing and contact you to apply to rent. You have no control over who wants to rent there and who doesn't, and if you get caught discriminating based on source of income, then you're in big big trouble.

You're talking about something as if you know all about it, but you really don't know the details of what you're talking about.

I clearly said your position shows one of two things. You are either not telling the truth, or you do not understand. If you are being honest, then you do not understand.

I know the details of the HUD program.

So far, you haven't added much to your position. Good luck with that.

propmgrjay says

am honest, and that's not at all how it works. You rent your properties to people who apply to rent them. You market your properties, people see your marketing and contact you to apply to rent. You have no control over who wants to rent there and who doesn't, and if you get caught discriminating based on source of income, then you're in big big trouble.

You're talking about something as if you know all about it, but you really don't know the details of what you're talking about.

dont worry about it. this is just small time jerk trying to stir up some poop. nevermind if his paddles full of holes.

Bap33 says

ur hate for the church

I don't "hate" the church - and by the way, to which church are you referring? There are many, and all of them believe that they are the one, the only, the true believers. Just curious, in your opinion which one is right?

Based on your posts, it's one that believes homosexuality is an abomination, women should have no control over their bodies yet shouldn't be allowed to collect welfare if the one-night stand they had won't step up to his responsibility, has few immigrants and votes conservative.

Boring!

I disagree with any position implying that one is intolerant/bigot/Glenn Beck fan merely for one's viewpoint on S8.

Please recognize that some people ended up on the LL side of S8. That was the hand that got dealt.

Please understand that the same people as above could have ended up on S8, even as we yet still qualify.

It's a cold equation, just as it was over 20 years ago, and none of us could help it.

The link is here:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/oZWXGg4otlg

@ellie,
right on! lol
Merry Christmas

033 says

disagree with any position implying that one is intolerant/bigot/Glenn Beck fan merely for one's viewpoint on S8.

The issue isn't S8, the issue is the belief system that leads to one's attitude toward those who are on S8.

Merry Christsmas to ya'll.

no no, not in my view. Seriously, when we talk JUST about S8, I dislike the system that takes taxpayer funds and places them in the hands of landlords that have SFH's. My top 3 reasons, not in order:
1) That screws up the "market" prices for working people that are competeing for affordable rentals in neighborhoods
2) That introduces lower class attitude/activities into neighborhoods that have rentals that are high/rare enough to be "nice" neghborhoods, where those attitiudes/activities are not normal nor welcomed, resulting in more crappy neighborhoods.
3) Taxpayers pay for/off a LL's assett/gamble/investment, and realize no gain from it. (true, all welfare indirectly benefits a LL that rents to welfare people, but S8 is more direct)

Again, let me say very plain, I have no issue putting people in free, safe, warm, dry, shelter for as long as they will follow all rules and laws that are part of accessing the free shelter, and for as long as they desire to live in the conditions that result from their presence. I do not agree with any type of Gov guage to "allow" access to the free shelter. All humans who desire to use the free shelter, that are not disallowed by a function of law (perverts or criminals, for example), should have the same access as anyone else. No income max or limit or minimum. No Gov qualifications. Free to any should be free to all. And, I will never complain about having free shelter like that. Section 8, or any other suplimented housing, that puts people in privately owned homes, paid by public funds, is a bad idea.

Bap33 says

no no, not in my view. Seriously, when we talk JUST about S8, I dislike the system that takes taxpayer funds and places them in the hands of landlords that have SFH's. My top 3 reasons, not in order:

dear weasle: you took taxpayer dollars to buy a house as I see. you a welfare queen to. it is always the welfare queens who get a little upset at the ones who get more from there schemes than what the they did.

Merry Christmas weasle.

Jody,
I don't know what Bap's situation is, but mine is that I took not a dime of taxpayer dollars for my house, and that, frankly, one should not be extracting taxpayer dollars be it through S8 homeownership program or FHA or first time or whatever.

JodyChunder says

Merry Christmas weasle.

weasle is actually spelled weasel. And IMHO, Bap has a narrow view of the world - I've made no secret of my opinion of that - but I don't think calling him names, even misspelled ones, is productive.

Bap33 says

I do not agree with any type of Gov guage to "allow" access to the free shelter. All humans who desire to use the free shelter, that are not disallowed by a function of law (perverts or criminals, for example), should have the same access as anyone else.

I totally agree with that.

Bap,
Isn't this the way homeless shelters work now?
Such shelters keep people for weeks. Months at best.
You can see how a mom and a few kids would want some stability approaching at least a year. Where would these people go after leaving the shelter?

With such a scarce resource as S8, it does seem fair that vouchers go preferentially to a family who are all citizens vs. a mom who isn't a citizen and has kids who are. Mom should consider going home with her children.

With S8 so scarce a resource, it remains an indefinite guarantee for the small numbers of those fortunate enough to receive vouchers. Staying on S8 for 10 years or more is not uncommon. Such long stays don't seem fair to the 90 percent or more who are crowded out of even getting in line. A strict time limit of 3 years for all but gravely disabled might be painful for those who might have to live in more crowded conditions and lower standards after a time, but such a time limit does seem fairer to all.

033 says

dy,
I don't know what Bap's situation is, but mine is that I took not a dime of taxpayer dollars for my house, and that, frankly, one should not be extracting taxpayer dollars be it through S8 homeownership program or FHA or first time or whatever.

Section 8 is for people who can not do for them selves. HUD loans are tax payer welfare way before SECTION 8. they are a hedge for dudes what either can not save or do not want to use there own $$$

elliemae says

weasle is actually spelled weasel. And IMHO, Bap has a narrow view of the world - I've made no secret of my opinion of that - but I don't think calling him names, even misspelled ones, is productive.

well you worry about being productive and ill call a spade a spade or a spaid or a spayed.

If folks need S8 to make do, the last thing they need is S8 homeownership. A mortgage plus expenses is hell for the government to promote to those least able to fix the roof, the plumbing, the heat, the tree. It goes on and on, all the time, as you know.
Five years into the foreclosure mess, this program seems exceptionally unwise, cruel even:
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/public_indian_housing/programs/hcv/homeownership